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Tanking in PVP
PureChaos
Member Posts: 839
Well anyone knows whoever has played wow with talents there are PVP and PVE specs.
For Example a tank really has no use in PVP but a flag runner, im just curiouse will tanks not have any of these increase agro abilities or will they actually be able to do dmg and thats how they hold agro ect you get the idea. Or will tanking abilities work with PVP for example will taunt actually cause you to be attacked in PVP. I would love to be a tank but i hate being unviable in PVP as a tank.
Thoughts comments ?
Comments
Collision detections goes a long way towards allowing the tanks to perform their duty, as you won't will be able to run through them to get at the softer targets. Also some tank types gain power the less they get targeted. As for taunts, those work by debuffing the enemy's damage against targets other than the taunter. And finally career paths will allow the tank to sacrfice some defense for augmented combat skill and vice versa, hope that clears up some of your questions.
I haven't seen a single case yet in video's etc where CC did anything more than prevent runthroughs on the battlefields.
Especially considering it's soft CC and the fact that range and AE ar eprevalent it's hard to see how CC will have any real effect in this game.
So don't asume that all the imbalances from wow will carry over in WAR. Mythic have stated that the want tank to be usefull class in pvp and i am sure they are well aware off a lot of options to improve the tank.
for eksample from a WAR podcast about taunt. Taunt will reduce the damage dealt on every other character but the tank . That should offer a difficoult choice for a taunted target, dealing reduced damage against a soft target , or full (but armour reduced) damage against the tank.
i just like to add that soft CC is not in itself a measure of how important CC is in a game.
In very well balanced games , soft CC can and often does become ekstream important as the tools that makes the diffence in a equal fight.( again my eksamples come from Guild Wars , wich i consider to have soft CC, but in PvP fights also very, very important.)
uh and where do you get that ranged and AE are prevalent from ? I mean for me it looks like atleast 50% of the classes are intended to be mellee. But Ofcause videos are nicer to watch from a ranged perspective.
Prevalent contrary to any real life situation. You see, mostly when people think of CC they imagine a wall of tanks like the movie 300 or something but in reality (this MMO's reality) a thing like that is totally unlikely. It's like the men in 300 standing in front of a mass of people half of which is carrying their own portable catapult and the rest whom they can't 100% block if they charge + they can't defend 100% + they can't kill them that way in any fair amount of time unlike the movie.
The situations are totally incompatible and *just* adding CC is in no way going to make it any more workeable than it was before unless the game accomodates that. So far I haven't seen any sign of that yet.
I'm open to seeing differently but I haven't seen anything yet that makes it seem decently effective yet.
Your example of Guild Wars is wrong and misplaced; while you want to have a strong frontline it doesn't mean you have to have tanks there. In the frontline stands not warriors (or dervishes) with "tanking setups" but rather warriors (or dervishes) that have a build focusing almost entirely on pressure, their naturally higher armor is the only thing that makes them fit for the frontline. Tanks in PvE differ a lot from those warriors (or dervishes) seen in PvP.
Tanking will, in PvP, never be useful since most people aren't as retarded as the monster AI; and thus they don't keep on attacking the target with a billion health and damage that's backed up by a healer. In PvP the closest you can come to a working tank is a class that features lots of armor, but still serves the role as pressure.
I also would love to tank. I'm not sure if I will tank in PVP though. I have to wait for beta or when I get in the game to check out the mechanics. I assume collision detection will allow us to block a doorway, but I'm unsure of how the taunt mechanic will force targeting. Next i'd like to know if other tanks or siege weapons will push tanks out of the way, or debuff healing on the tanks in some way to move them.
See i want to tank and PVP i always loved it, its more or less a question will my shield be a viable weapon or tool or am i just going to be unstoppable and have to change specs for pvp!
Its hard to compare WAR's career & tactics system to WoW's talent tree system. The WAR career tree system isnt' really a tree its three paths that you allot points to the entire path (instead of to which ever ability you want like the tree system from wow) which gives you new morale abilities over time.
The tactics system on the other hand is where the major variance will happen. If you watch the Paris videos they go into pretty good detail on the tactics system.
In essence the tactics system is what allows you to diversify the roll your tank plays & you can create multiple builds and store them(so you can easily swap out which build you want to use before combat). Tactics can be swapped out at any time & anywhere as long as your NOT in combat. Depending on your tactics build you can make yourself more PvE viable or more PvP viable or more Siege viable, more defense, more offense, or whatever you come up with. The tactics system is extremely robust with thousands of passive tactical abilities to choose from as you find them, learn them, or buy them (or even unlock them through the ToK, these of course are pve only from the ToK).
Unlike WoW where you allot a point into each 'ability' of a tree in WAR you only allot points to the entire PATH for the Career. Unlike WoW where you get passive and non passive abilities through the tree you get all your passive abilities through the tactics system which is customizable and you can save your builds so you can easily swap them out for free anytime anywhere as long as your not in combat. The systems are entirely different despite what some people think.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
sounds good to me, but it still leaves the question with the shield, is it the 2 handers or w/e il be using or will the shield actually be viable.
Sounds like something il just have to wait and see, well Black Ork it is then!
Prevalent contrary to any real life situation. You see, mostly when people think of CC they imagine a wall of tanks like the movie 300 or something but in reality (this MMO's reality) a thing like that is totally unlikely. It's like the men in 300 standing in front of a mass of people half of which is carrying their own portable catapult and the rest whom they can't 100% block if they charge + they can't defend 100% + they can't kill them that way in any fair amount of time unlike the movie.
The situations are totally incompatible and *just* adding CC is in no way going to make it any more workeable than it was before unless the game accomodates that. So far I haven't seen any sign of that yet.
I'm open to seeing differently but I haven't seen anything yet that makes it seem decently effective yet.
i bet you will see a line of tanks at one point in time during keep sieges uses the ramps which (from the videos) will allow 4 to five people to space across it thus...using the choke points to hold off the attacker rush tanking will have a use in PVP and I bet you will see it ... not in OPEN RVR at all i agree but in keep and times in which choke points are there to be used they will be used and tanks will be effective...while only in those situations....at PVP
No matter how you spec your mastery trees you WILL be viable in pvp. Taunts lessen the damage that can be done to your comrades and a shield can block more than just melee attacks, granted you will do more damage if you go for 2 handers but you won't be able to take as much punishment
Damn NDA makes it hard to be able to explain things >.>
Well, you'll be able to kill things and do damage, just not as much as with a 2 hander. It's not like WoW where if you spec for tanking you can't do any damage.
My understanding of what tanks will do in PvP is like another poster said is apply pressure to the other team. Since tanks will naturally have the highest defense and hopefully the most HP. They will be there to lay down pressure(or push back) the enemy team. If 5 tanks rush forward ahead of non-tank melee DPS, range DPS not to far behind, and healers not to far behind paying close attention to the tanks but keeping up the non-tank classes. That offers a better strat looking at it from a PvP stand point. Those 5 tanks are putting pressure on the enemy non-tank DPS as well as anyone else that may be on the front line. They aren't there to gain the attention of melee and range dps, but they are there to wear down the frontline and make it easier for allied non-tanks to deal out damage. So either the enemy frontline will attack tanks and do little to no damage, attack non-tanks(but still get attacked by tank dps), or they will run which is exactly what I think tanks in pvp are meant to do. To weaken the enemies frontline.
Actually CC means Crowd Control, which is roots, mezzes and other stuff that prevents your character from taking action. CD means Collision Detection, which prevents you from running through people. Earlier in this thread there was a post or two which mixed up CD and CC, just assume the poster wrote CD, which he probably meant to anyway.
Anyway, in WAR, tanks are very durable fighters that while not doing a lot of damage, do have a lot of interesting tools to protect their allies, which is their primary role both in RvR and PvE.
1. Taunt debuff that makes their target do significantly less damage to anyone but the tank.
2. A Guard ability that lets the tank protect a nearby ally, thereby sharing a load of the damage the ally receives.
3. Collision detection allows you to stand in the way and obstruct enemies trying to reach your more vulnerable allies. In general I don't think this will work for more than a few seconds - it's probably difficult to counter your opponents every move for an extended amount of time.
4. All tanks have some kind of mechanic in addition to those two that make them really annoying to have around. The Chosen for example debuffs all enemies in his vicinity with his offensive auras, the Ironbreaker's attacks become more powerful if you build up his Grudge meter by attacking his allies, and so on.
1. TANKING is always needed.
2. Each spec does have its PVP ups and downs. I play a Chosen. One spec means I use a two hand weapon, one means I am even harder to bring down, and the final spec which I play makes me a caster killer. The first spec is basically a harder to bring down melee dpser. The 2nd spec is your flag holder, stairway blocker, guy you send into to knock their flag carrior/ healer/ whatever target out of a zerg. The third spec is lets me be the MA for PVP because I can bring down the resists of the the target for the casters, while beating on them in my heavy armor.
3. Aggro in PVP works differently. You have to have a more specific role.
Protect the healers/casters. Snare, Debuff, getting in front, and most importantly BASHING. If your healer/caster is running, snare the guy. get in front, then bash him further away. If your H/C is standing still, debuff then position yourself to bash them far far away. Most important, BASH. Knock them down a hill, down the stairs, off a bridge, into lava, or simply the 30 ft away giving your caster some breathing room and a chance to prepare a responce. It is aggravating to be bashed away, being bashed away multiple times is like having a restraining order. "step away from the healer, I PUSH"
Disrupting the H/C. As a tank, your presence alone should cause some concern when near a H/C. It may take a lone tank a while to bring down a H/C but during that time it effectively removes combatents. If your ranged DPS is getting beaten on by a tank, and the healer nearby has to exert all his effort into keeping that caster alive, there goes 2 now engaged for the price of 1. No one class can bring down a tank easy, that is why they are called tanks, if they can then that tank is not playing or equiped as they should be. Change the numbers of a battle by making them deal with you. Force them to notice you and bring you down, it allows everyone on your team more oppurtunities to turn the tide of battle.
MA. A tank is a great MA, they are alive long enough for everyone to be able to assist and is generally played as a distrupting tank except you stick with a target till it dies.
IN A FLAG SCENARIO.
You make the best flag holder because you die harder. That should be obvious. I personally dislike when a caster takes the flag, then gets dropped 2 seconds later. It would have taken at least 30 seconds for me to get dropped by the same attackers. As a Flag Carrior you should stay with the zerg and not rush off ahead. Sure everyone will follow you, but you can get ambushed or picked off easier when ahead of the formation.
You make the best flag holder killer. Seperation is key. Snaring then Bashing the F/C out into the open away from their allies they are a much easier target. You can also slow their attempt at reaching their objective by doing this.
You are not unviable in PVP. You may not get the most killing blows, damage dealt or any other of the statistics a scenario keeps track of, but you do make a difference.
ONE ON ONE.
A caster is meat if they aren't running.
A healers damage is generally the same or less then yours. If your DPS > their healing ability you should win. I've beaten solo warrior priest s 60% of the time if they are same or lower level. Caster Healers should be meat when you get in melee range.
Range non casting DPS. If you get in melee range with enough hits, you should takem down easy.
Tanks. Better skill and gear wins.
Melee DPS. I generally rip apart witchhunters, and the lion pet guys like they are butter. I once killed a lion pet first on accident because it was outhitting the player. Your ment to soak up melee damage. Toughness and Armor > DPS otherwise Hero mobs would be soloable. I can solo a champ, but not a hero because too many hits, and too much toughness.
One more reason tanks are needed and the one everyone can agree on. If you have no tanks, how are you going to kill a keep Lord? Your not. Light melees can tank against champs, but not heros.
Chaos Skullthrone