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Why do mmorpg's come out based on not having loot?
rohbshop
Member Posts: 308
AC2 originally came out i believe with no dropped loot. SWG came out with no dropped loot because they wanted it to be a pure player run economy. Horizons came out with no real dropped loot, more or less, just components for crafters to craft as the only drops. CoH has no real loot, other than maybe the powerups and enhancments, but i dont really consider them loot, more like fps style loot. All of these havent done too well other than CoH, and i dont think many people would disagree with me that they were disappointments. Since then however, i've heard SWG has added dropped loot. I also heard that AC2 has added dropped loot. While Horizons is about to die, not sure if it has yet or hasnt, but it deserves to die.
Now going back to D&D or Baldurs Gate i've never played a rpg that had no loot, or where loot wasnt a major part of the gameplay incentive. Recently however i've seen this big outcry by some people strongly against loot in games. When i was playing Hz's i never saw a more anti-loot based community of crafters, although in a way i can understand why they were threatened by it. Since dropped loot in Hz's would mean Crafters werent the end all be all that every Adventurer had to go to just to upgrade a weapon. Crafters generally craft so they can feel needed, and be more special than most other players due to their ability to make things that most others cant. Adding dropped loot that people could use or look forward to getting would make them less important. However what happened was all the Adventurers left, simply because there was no point or reward for Adventuring other than being a gopher for a crafter. So in the end the crafters got what they wanted, a game that died largely due to its focus towards pure crafters at the expense of Adventurers. I'm sure some will debate this, but i played from the first day and it was easily apparent between the outcry on the forums and in-game economy that the lack of loot/reward for adventurers was a big reason for so many lookiing for Adventurers leaving.
I wish i could speak more about SWG and AC2, but like i said i left after the first month of SWG and only tried the AC2 trial which i really didnt like. I can speak more about CoH however. Which leads me to the biggest complaint littering CoH forums, the game is way too repetetive and all you can do is beatup monsters over and over again, it has none of the multi-dimensional mmorpg gameplay that alot of mmorpg'ers have grown accustomed to. So this basically means no economy(loot is important for an economy), very little rewards for accomplishments, which makes what you do all the more repetetive. I dont think i would've burned out of CoH nearly as fast if there were unique rewards (a la AO) for doing missions. But there werent, therefore the whole point was just to go into a mission area, kill everything, and leave hoping you got decent experience. The CoH fanboi will say "i play for fun, i dont need loot". The problem is while some people can kill thug after thug over and over again in the same way from 1-50 and never get bored, many others need in-game incentives to shoot for to push them through. This is especially true w/ treadmill style games, and despite how CoH fanbois act like every other game is a treadmill, i'd argue CoH has one of the biggest, most monotonous treadmills to climb. Why? Because there is very little incentive but gaining experience, which makes it all the more redundant.
So given the success of games like UO, EQ, DAOC, AO, etc. in comparison to the 2nd generation mmorpg's like HZ's, AC2, SWG, why do so many people seem to think Loot is so bad? Its a reward, an incentive, what i dont understand about these people is how can you be against incentives? I've always thought the problem was the people who hate loot, cant get past their own envy of players with better loot than they have. Some will never achieve or have the best loot since mmorpg advancement is all about time invested in the game. Therefore they make statements like "i dont need my Uber sword of XXX to show off to everyone" generalizing that everyone who enjoys loot enjoys it to show off and rubb it in other peoples faces. As a person who loves loot in rpg's, i can say as a fact i enjoy questing for loot because it will make me stronger usually, or be a fun toy to play with, or something to customize my character with and improve him. I've rarelly seen anyone say "i cant wait to get that new sword so i can rubb it in everyones faces that i have it and they dont". To me those statements go to show the perspective of those that hate loot so much, and how their mentality is the problem. Its based on envy of other players(thinking the guy with better loot is always trying to show it off to him), whereas the person enjoying the loot is just questing after something he thinks will improve his character or be a fun toy to play with.
Am i wrong?
As a case in point, EQ gets the worst rap by the anti-loot crowd for 'rubbing it in peoples faces" and yet, nobody w/ uberloots can force anyone in that game to rclick them and look at their inventory to be envious of.
Also, i'm not an uber player, i was never uber in EQ. My biggest accomplishment in EQ was getting my druid epic(after POP), and i was happy as hell to have a free snare dot, definitely not to show it off to anyone 
Comments
Regarding your appraisal of why games are being made after such a principle, I really do not know; nor do I care to speculate on it. But I agree with you, in that, I like games based upon the idea of obtaining loot, and look forward to the next game that builds upon that historical premise of RPGs. Loot is good, in my, and many, many other's opinion.
Some might object to you with something like, "why not just go play EQ some more if all you want is phat l00t". Well, to such a hypthetical reply, I would say that loot is not what it is all about; but it is an integral part. The older games have much to improve upon, beyond the issue of loot. Even loot needs an overhaul though. Personally, I would like to see loot drop much more rarely and be much more unique in it's effect.
I do not think that adventurers and crafters will ever find a mmorpg where both are fully content; only one in which either has a mediocre opinion on the game. I am quite glad to know that Turbine has taken a firm no-crafting stance with D&DO. If my opinion on crafting isn't clear already, just read my sig.
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Crafting must die
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Crafting must die
These games were all based on a player run economy, which at least in my opinion is already in most MMOs. The players always set the value of an item or loot based on the demand and rarity of the item. Why we need an economy to be forced on us is beyond me. Some days I don't want to spend all day trying to find a good deal on an item I desperately need. Plus I love to find good items on corpses of monsters that I slay. To me it is a short term reward for hunting. I think more games need the random loot drop systems of AC1 and D2 etc.
Player run economies seem to be all the rage lately in game ideas but if you really look at what the players want, most don't desire them. Strange trend but it should be dying down. hehe
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I personally have zero interest in a player ran economy. Crafting is great and all, but it shouldnt be the sole way of obtaining good gear. I think DAoC did it well, where you could find good loot or you could get good stuff crafted. Neither method was forced upon the player. SWGs system was probably the worst ive experienced.
My fav loot system to date was in AC1, with its random item generator. That made loot so much fun. If only so much of it didnt end up on eBay...
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Played: Asheron's Call 1, Dark Age of Camelot, Earth & Beyond, Star Wars Galaxies
Tested: Asheron's Call 1, Asheron's Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Eve Online, Lineage 2, Risk Your Life
Uninstalled ASAP: MU Online, Knight Online, Rubies of Eventide, Priston Tales, Star Sonata, DarkSpace
I've found that a player run economy isn't for me either. I've played loot based EQ and AC and then went to AC2 (ugh) and SWG and felt I wasn't being rewarded for my efforts. Sure I could tend to my harvestors and make fancy clothing, or craft guns and droids but there was really no risk involved in any of this.
I enjoy crafting and believe that to be in an important part of the mmo economy. A good balance between crafting goods and loot goods should be established.
Heh I think HZ and CoH have bigger problems than just loot. Actually I don't think a loot system fits in CoH.
Personally I don't really care about dropped loot. I played EQ as well, and after awhile I just got tired of loot and levels being the only point of the game. I want something more than just loot.
I think a player run economy can work, but not if they don't add another carrot on a stick for people to chase. Even with the most loot-centric game ever (EQ), they found the need for another carrot to keep people playing. People get bored when they are maxed out, and without drops, maxing out is even easier. So, SWGs crafting system wasn't bad, there was just no other carrot since maxing your character was so easy. Same with some other games out there.
I think the best items in a game should be crafted items that use a special loot drop. Second should be the highest end loot drops, followed by crafted items with rare drops, then rare drop loot,..... and on down the ladder. I also think there should be ways to always improve your character. EQ and DAoC had the right idea (although people could argue with how well they work). Having a maxed out character with the best equipment and nothing more to do but wait on a new expansion and usually leads to burnout or griefing for fun.
--Ha, Pwned--
Pvp = godliness
--Ha, Pwned--
Pvp = godliness
Playing: WoW
Waiting on: Gods and Heroes
well, that'd be one thing if there were something added, "wanting more" implies addition, but taking out loot only takes away from reward incentive. And there seem to be a vocal segment of mmorpg players who think thats good. And i question why that is
If ebay is the reason, thats like cutting off your nose to spite your face. These people who think loot should be taken out altogether just to spite the people who ebay must be some very vindictive people to sacrifice an enjoyable aspect of rpg's, or rather a staple of rpg's in general for that purpose.
I just dont understand these trends in mmorpg's. Like i posted above UO, EQ, DAOC, AC, AO all have done very well and theyre all loot-based. WoW and EQ2 are some of the most anticipated games ever, both of which will have loot. Then you have the AC2's, SWG, HZ's, etc. which are crafter-based and no loot. So why again do dev's make games based around not having loot? Why do some people act like loot is so bad?
I'm not a big crafting fan but i think crafting has a place in mmorpg's. Personally, i dont think crafted items should be the best items, i think they should be very good items and maybe some of the best, but at least equal with dropped loot. I dont mind the idea of SOME loot being components you have to go to crafters for, but imo it should be a rare occurance. Hz's made it so you had to go to a crafter for everything that dropped, and it made the adventurer way too reliant on the crafter. I didnt mind how EQ did it, where some pretty good stuff like the Valorian rings were based on some rare drops from different areas. I just think some games have gone completely overboard w/ crafting, and are neglecting the whole idea of adventuring through dangerous wilderness in search of fortune and fame. Not adventuring for resources so you can pay a crafter to make you something
Most players do not have the free time. They make up the majority of players. MMORPGs are a buisness. A buisness wants to go where the money is, wants to constantly make even more money (aka expand). The only way MMORPGs can make more money is to go after the still untapped market of players who do NOT have insane free amounts of time. players who only have 1-3 hours free time each session to play.
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MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
DAoC (coming soon)
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======= SIGNATURE =========
MMORPG games I've played:
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http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
Star Wars Galaxies:
http://community.webshots.com/user/capt_xplororor
More games:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
DAoC (coming soon)
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While I think EQ is an item-centric game, having played HZ and CoH I don't think it's accurate to say that they are based on no loot drops (even though they don't have any). I'd say HZ is based on server wide events (large scale war of players vs undead horde) and CoH is about being a hero. If you think about it, making CoH loot-centric would be counter to its ideals.
I've never heard anyone say loot shouldn't be in a game. What I have heard though is people who think crafted gear should be better than normal drops and/or drops shouldn't be so rare as to invite camping. Personally I don't care. I don't really see much difference between camping an area for hours on end to get an item and farming an area for hours on end to get the gold to buy an item.
ok let me address some of your points. I unintentionally addressed your point about the difference in HAVING to go through a crafter rather than getting your reward right then and there after defeating the big bad monster in my last post. To expound on that its a tedious step to find a crafter high enough, trustworthy, and pay him just to do a combine and get your reward. I dont mind it so much if its a rare occruance, but even half the time or 3/4's of the time is WAY overkill. Its just as fun as lookiing around, waiting for the guy thats the right class to logon so your group can survive
Nobody likes having to rely on a specific class or person just so they can get to the next step, let alone be rewarded.
Theres something said for the whole idea of adventuring and reaping the spoils. Not adventuring and reaping the spoils which are only components that you have to find a high enough lvl crafter to really be rewarded at all. Like i said i dont have a problem with a few occurances where an Adventurer might have to do that but it better not be frequent or it just creates way too much of a reliance and pain for the adventurer to be rewarded.
As for SWG, it WAS a disappointment. SWG was the first very highly anticipated mmorpg, it was like the WoW hype now, leading up to that release. Everyone was thinking it was going to be this revolutionary mmorpg since UO's original designer was doing it along with Lucas Arts, a huge budget, so people were expecting alot. I can say for a fact back then at release it was a big letdown to the majority of people who played it, still is. I guess what im saying is SWG's subscription #'s could've/should've been alot higher given its fanfare, but i'm not doubting its still doing well due mainly to the Star Wars name and maybe getting better.
UO had crafting but it also had loot drops. UO imo had a good balance between the two and worked very well within its economy. In fact i think UO had one of the best economies back when i was playing it. UO also had PvPer and item decay, which was a major reason why crafting worked so well within the economy. UO also had open loot rules(pre-Trammel), including many non sword/armor style crafting like alchemy, lumbejacking, mining, etc. The dungeoning was fun because you could always get lucky and find a Viking Sword of Vanquish. It wasnt too difficult to make trade characters and at least there was a max skill limit to crafting, so people could have alt crafters to help support their income or be self-sufficient. Or where finding the 'right' crafter to make you something wasnt too difficult. Alot of crafting these days seems to have an endless climb to the top tiers where the number of crafters at those higher tiers are very few, whom overcharge for everything because their in such demand. So crafting in UO and the mechanics around it were very different than most of the crafting in games today.
And no, you cant say the same about adventurers/non-crafters as i've been saying about crafters. Adventurers dont rely on other people to feel needed/special. Re-read what i wrote originally, i quest for an item because that item is useful to me. It makes me stronger, it helps customize my character more, therefore i want it. I dont need it to feel needed or special, like a crafter needs Adventurers to use them. Its almost like crafters are parasitic to Adventurers through game mechanics that try and fit the crafter in there somewhere. They could just as easily have the loot drop, but they have to fit the crafter into the game so they make ita component drop instead, forcing the adventurer through the tedious step of finding a crafter to be rewarded, just to appease and satisfy their game catering to crafters to some degree. By and large, crafters and adventurers play for very different reasons or get their satisfaction very differently.
I didnt play MUD's, but i've played UO, EQ, DAOC, AO, AC, SWG, DAOC, HZ's, SB, CoH, Eve, and i think i might be missing a few. Not sure if that constitutes as not having played many mmorpg's, but i think its a fair amount.
For the record, getting the Druid epic in EQ, post POP, was easy. In the earlier days of EQ, getting that epic was very difficult due to the backlog and how the epic quest worked on timers. In fact, getting any epic in EQ in EQ's old days was VERY difficult due to the competition and components or quest items only dropping so much in a given period. They changed just about every epic, including the most difficult one, Clerics, to be much more easier. EQ has gotten 10x's easier since its early days, and alot of people dont seem to realize that. Getting to lvl 50 was pretty easy when i quit, i'm sure its alot easier now. There are just alot more lvling areas, the power of every player has increased significantly with the expansions and new items, and the exp rate has increased significantly in certain areas. And this was awhile ago, like almost a year.
You've got to be kidding me if you dont think i've made a good argument providing examples of how loot based games are succerssful, and the non loot based games dont fare too well. All you pointed out was SWG, which i admit i'm surprised it has 300k subscribers(is this a fact?), but not so surprised because Star Wars has a huge following. From what i've heard btw, its a mess. i heard they just totally redid their combat system. I've also read there are still tons of old bugs, but they are focused on getting out JTLS regardless. You also pointed out UO to try and disprove my point, of which i explained had droped loot along with crafting that was very different in game mechanics than crafting today. You didnt address AC, AO, DAOC, etc. and realize i'm talking abot pure player crafted economies, where there is little to no loot. UO doesnt fall into that category. While i'd say the other games that were disappointments do/did.
You should also think about refamiliarizing yourself with EQ. Since EQ has a pretty active economy, if it didnt, the bazaar wouldnt be packed with player vendors using up their computer and bandwidth to sell stuff. Sure, its top-heavy, but what mmorpg 6-7 years old isnt? UO and EQ definitely arent getting tons of noobs these days, so why do you expect the lower llvl economies to be booming?
If your trying to make the argument crafter-based games are more successful, all i have to point out is EQ or Lineage. And the best you could point out is SWG i guess, even then you did admit they added more loot drops and was initially a disappointment.
I wasnt talking about Jboots. I was refering to the comments that usually go "I dont need Phat Lewtz to show off to everyone" when the antiloot crowd tries to justify no dropped loot in games or no loot at all, acting like its so bad or everyone that enjoys it are all kiddies or something. I was trying to make the point that those anti loot players see it that way because their envious(of course they'll never admit this), knowing they wont/cant play as much as the other person to get what he has, so they'd rather it not be in a game at all. Its their envious nature thats the problem because they cant be content within their own gameplay and must always measure it against the next person. Whereas the person with the loot more or less see's it as something useful to them, something to customize themself with or make them stronger. Definitely not to show it off. In EQ its a voluntary action by the other person to rclick them to look at someone inventory. And for some reason alot of antiloot people make those statements, referencing EQ, when if you break it down, makes no sense.
One last thing i had to add about not having enough time to play and about the turnover rate of EQ. EQ still has aton of subscribers playing it. I'm not sure what the numbers are, but i'm betting its more than SWG currently has, which is pretty good for a 6 year old game? I'm not sure what the turnover rate is, but i figure it would seem higher because it was at one point the top dog in North America by a large margin over most mmorpg's. So if you were at one point the top seller w/ the highest subscription base, then i'm sure the to rate number will seem higher later on when the game gets more and more outdated. I dont think it had much to do with casual players or holding them. Imo a casual player could have a blast in EQ, the atmosphere and gameplay is all there. At least as long as they didnt focus and compare themself against everyone else. It all goes back to envy, and ignorance being bliss.
As for casual player games, i think thats just another way of saying dumbed down. Hz's used to get the rap for being for casual players. Higher lvls quickly got bored and outlvld the content, while the casual gamer went at a much slower pace and was somewhat more satisfied. This often happens with new games, CoH gets the same rap. However imo the difference is CoH purposely caters to casual gamers, wheras i think Hz's was just new and very prematurely rleased. Theres a connection between 'being for casual gamers' and being a dumbed down version with lower limits to make everyone viable. I've yet to play a game that is supposedly for 'casual gamers' thats good or has great depth and endless playability. Even CoH goes out of its way not to put in anything worth shooting for other than fluff because they dont want to make the casual gamer feel any less than the hardcore player. So they put in incentives like capes or costume changes or titles, stuff that isnt really practical or useful, but just fluff appearance incentives because of their paranoia in making the casual player envious and turned off by the ones who invest more time and have more than they do like in other mmorpg's. And trust me, Cryptic took ALOT of flack for putting a low lvl limit on capes. Its like all tthe casual gamers that play CoH wanted everything given to them at lvl 1 under the justification that Cryptic promised they'd cater to them. And thats partly why theres really nothing worth shooting for in CoH, its pointless lvling for the msot part and twice as monotonous as a result w/ very little in game rewards to break the monotony. I do think CoV adding pvp will make CoH alot better tho.