The majority of Darkfall’s official forum community is a Frankenstein abomination in my opinion, Aventurine have created a monster after years of mismanagement and they are going to have to deal with it one way or another eventually. I stopped my interaction in 2005 because in my opinion it was no longer productive to be an active participant any longer, and I would argue the developers themselves share my attitude considering the relative stark absence of their presence in comparison to earlier times in the game’s development. In my opinion the only people who defend the behavior of the majority of the community are the people who still participate in said community, so they obviously are not objective and are part of the problem and not the solution.
Good post in many parts with strongest part your dedication to said community prior to 2005.
However you mistake, being objective with "shoot the developers". According to your opinion that should be the type of "objectivity", your favorite choice after 2005, for the community to apply. Quaint , you leave, community lost objectivity hehe..but that just as side note.
Maybe extensive 'I hope this game is released soon' threads are appropriate then for to establish said "objectivity".
Statements about how the "community" reacted poorly to you ONCE when you asked a stupid (because you are lazy) question makea you look like one of the many people who would rather see DF fail.
Also anyone who thinks gankers will be huge in DF is silly and does not know much about the game.
1.) You cannot see the persons level/skill/name
Most gankers/griefers will ONLY fight if they 100% know they can win. In every other game (AoC, WoW, ect..) you know if you have a good chance aginst a person or not, but no so in darkfall. Wepons and armor will look more realistic also you you will be "blind" when trying to attack someone. (ie gankers and griefers are cowards and they will not gank random people becuase attacking anyone could have huge ramifications, death for yourself, major guilds/well liked people become your enemies ect..)
Bah dont want to finish this now ill make a seperate post and enumerate my thoughts.
Also anyone who thinks gankers will be huge in DF is silly and does not know much about the game.
1.) You cannot see the persons level/skill/name Most gankers/griefers will ONLY fight if they 100% know they can win. In every other game (AoC, WoW, ect..) you know if you have a good chance aginst a person or not, but no so in darkfall. Wepons and armor will look more realistic also you you will be "blind" when trying to attack someone. (ie gankers and griefers are cowards and they will not gank random people becuase attacking anyone could have huge ramifications, death for yourself, major guilds/well liked people become your enemies ect..)
This is wrong. Gankers travel in large groups, and attack people 5 on 1. So not knowing the other persons level won't make any difference
And gankers will have an alt account so they don't have to worry about reputation
Also anyone who thinks gankers will be huge in DF is silly and does not know much about the game.
1.) You cannot see the persons level/skill/name Most gankers/griefers will ONLY fight if they 100% know they can win. In every other game (AoC, WoW, ect..) you know if you have a good chance aginst a person or not, but no so in darkfall. Wepons and armor will look more realistic also you you will be "blind" when trying to attack someone. (ie gankers and griefers are cowards and they will not gank random people becuase attacking anyone could have huge ramifications, death for yourself, major guilds/well liked people become your enemies ect..)
This is wrong. Gankers travel in large groups, and attack people 5 on 1. So not knowing the other persons level won't make any difference
And gankers will have an alt account so they don't have to worry about reputation
I agree... some people will have a second account just for being PKs.
Btw, the reason Darkfall's forums are crap is because the intelligent members always end up getting banned when they get mad about the broken promises and lies. The first major cull was in 2004, most of the active original community members were banned in 2004 and 2005. That's also why they got rid of user registration dates and post counts, because people get weirded out and bail if they see all the veteran members of a forum are being banned and it's only all noobs that are left there, especially when it is an official community for a game in development. For about a year every month or so someone at the forum would show up with registration from 2001 and tell all the lies the devs had told, then the noobs on the forum would be like, "OMG, wats, izzit truues????" and then the veteran community member would get banned, lol.
In terms of the sociology of Internet communities, Darkfall is a really weird and interesting example. It shows you how easy it is for the weak minded to be manipulated, and this is how cult leaders arise everywhere and get a bunch of retards to let them rape their children and go kill people.... Weak minded people are so strange, it is really hard to understand what is wrong with them, but Darkfall is a case study in that, just with some very minor and obvious psychological manipulations like promise people you will create the "ultimate" game, and then no matter what you do there will be this core of mentally deficient people who love you just for the promise and will be happy even to die for you..... strange, indeed.
Anyway, the Darkfall community originally was really awesome, it was filled with people with big ideas and dreams about the future of MMORPGs, a lot of really smart folks who wanted to see a game with real player freedom to create a new paradigm in video games.... but all those guys got banned a long time ago for speaking the truth, lol.
Anyway, I followed Darkfall since 2001, but it has been obvious since 2005 [if you had followed it] at the latest that there was no game. Darkfall is some kind of scam. I think it started out as a real game project, but somewhere along they found a way to milk it for money and they found out they couldn't make a game, and since then they've just been trying to keep the status quo alive and milk it as long as possible... That's the best guess of anyone who followed the game closely from the early days.
That forum community used to be cool, though. It's sad what happened to it.
Well actually i am still hoping that DFO will be released some day.
But i try not to have too much hopes, that's what i did for Horizons (sounded cool but got horrible) or other games which never made it to release.
What i don't like on DFO community in official Forums is... SPAM! Everything get's spammed badly. If a new member asks a simple question which could be answered with 1 sentence they just jump this thread, post "read the FAQ" or "use search" and start spamming. Everything.
Sometims i am actually surprised that some threads don't get spammed that much, but the mass is spam
Yes, clearly Darkfall is a scam. No doubt! But wait... I'm a little bit confused here... If it's a scam then.... What are they scamming people of? Cookies and milk? Scam involves one party jacking another party's money. Did they take money from any of you? Did they set pre-orders or pre-subscription? Did they sell you Darkfall Underwear and never delievered it? What is it then?
What! Maybe Aventurine is scamming some investors? But.... Who? Isn't Aventurine a well established and respected Defense Contracting Company developing Simulator Systems for Governments and Military with a multimillion dollar budget at hand? It is! Oh geee.... Another bum in the Scam theory... I'm so damn dissappointed!
Damn those Aventurine Scammers! They are Scamming us of [INSTER YOUR SILLY IMAGINATIONS HERE]!!!
Oh and obviously we are dealing with inexperienced and out of garage developers! I mean, how much experience in programming can have people who develop War Simulating Systems, Command Control Systems and Geographic Information Systems for Militaries? Silly newb amateur programers!
Oh, and look at that. How would any professional banker would dare to provide funds to that silly group of amateurs we are speaking of. That damn Athens-based Proton Investment Bank SA of Greece provided Aventurine with a 20 million euro convertible bond. I mean, we are CLEARLY dealing with a Vaporware here, so why would anyone with a right mind, especially a world wide recognized and respected Investment Bank, do such a thing? That's just sooooo silly. Clearly those bankers there are up for a big disappointment. I guess they didn't care to professionally check and inspect the seriousness, or as WE of right mind would say lack of seriousness, of this project.
AMMM I RIGHT GUYYZZZ!!! DARKFALLLZZ IS A VAPORWAREZ! Silly amateur Military contractors and silly professional Investment Bankers! WHADDA BUNCH OF NEWBZ, LAWLZ.
Yes, clearly Darkfall is a scam. No doubt! But wait... I'm a little bit confused here... If it's a scam then.... What are they scamming people of? Cookies and milk? Scam involves one party jacking another party's money. Did they take money from any of you? Did they set pre-orders or pre-subscription? Did they sell you Darkfall Underwear and never delievered it? What is it then? What! Maybe Aventurine is scamming some investors? But.... Who? Isn't Aventurine a well established and respected Defense Contracting Company developing Simulator Systems for Governments and Military with a multimillion dollar budget at hand? It is! Oh geee.... Another bum in the Scam theory... I'm so damn dissappointed! http://www.asdsource.com/source_detail_small/2882/Aventurine_SA.htm Damn those Aventurine Scammers! They are Scamming us of [INSTER YOUR SILLY IMAGINATIONS HERE]!!! Oh and obviously we are dealing with inexperienced and out of garage developers! I mean, how much experience in programming can have people who develop War Simulating Systems, Command Control Systems and Geographic Information Systems for Militaries? Silly newb amateur programers! Oh, and look at that. How would any professional banker would dare to provide funds to that silly group of amateurs we are speaking of. That damn Athens-based Proton Investment Bank SA of Greece provided Aventurine with a 20 million euro convertible bond. I mean, we are CLEARLY dealing with a Vaporware here, so why would anyone with a right mind, especially a world wide recognized and respected Investment Bank, do such a thing? That's just sooooo silly. Clearly those bankers there are up for a big disappointment. I guess they didn't care to professionally check and inspect the seriousness, or as WE of right mind would say lack of seriousness, of this project. AMMM I RIGHT GUYYZZZ!!! DARKFALLLZZ IS A VAPORWAREZ! Silly amateur Military contractors and silly professional Investment Bankers! WHADDA BUNCH OF NEWBZ, LAWLZ.
First let me say, I dont think Darkfall is a scam. I think they bit off more than they can chew, yes, and I would even go so far as to say they have lied (outright or by omission) about the condition of their game. But I think there is a game.
Now, about your link...please! It makes them an expert in jack squat. If you click on the link to Aventurine from that site, you get this:
Aventurine was originally formed to fund and publish Darkfall.[snip] Its activities, other than Darkfall, are research into game and simulation technologies. We've also advised war-game simulation military projects in the past through other companies in our group, activities that have given us some valuable perspectives to be used in game development. The company also sponsors and supports sporting events, athletes, and competitive gaming tournaments. Aventurine is organized under the laws of Greece and the European Union as an S.A. Corporation.
They ADVISED war-game simulation military projects in the past through other companies in their group. WAY different. They formed as a company to fund and publish Darkfall. This is no "well established and respected defense contractor", it is ridiculous to even suggest such a thing.
And investors? They may well have secured monies in Greece, I would hope so, since that was Aventurines purpose. In fact, as Razorwax, they had an investor too! He only lost $514,000 though.
I'll also very much agree that the Development Team, at least under Razorwax flag, very much underestimated the progress and status of the game development. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't completely revamp the engine and pretty much everything during 2003-2004 years. If you look at the difference in available screenshots from 2002-2003 and 2004-present, you'll see that whole game was revamped from scratch. This said, whole argument of game being in development for almost 9 years is absurt. The development of the game we are speaking of hasn't began until late 2003. That said, game has been in development for approximately 6 years. I'll even further agree with you that even during this period of time they have underestimated the status of the game at multipule occassions, just as majority of serious game developers do. How many times has AoC been delayed? Even now with it's release it's a buggy piece of shit, as opposed to what they presumely promised it to be. Those are realities of software development, especially video games.
As far as Aventurine goes, nobody will know the exac details of their projects, since they are MILITARY projects, which are logically strictly secured. Nevertheless, it's a valid company which has been able to reserve 20 million Euros (25M dollars, at the time) from an Investment Bank. Now, please, using realistic logic and business realities, what Bank would do that without some sort of valid guarantee that their money isn't going into shit? If that was the case, we'd have software developing studios on every corner of streets, at least in Greece.
There are shitload of Naysayers in regards to Darkfall, yet none of them have any understanding of what is really going on. Aventurine's perspective is such as they could have not even make www.DarkfallOnline.com with it's face representation of the game and its community and it'd make completely no difference in terms of the ongoing development of the game. They have player experience through past games they played, they have technical experiences through their software development knowledge, and they have financial backing for their project. That's also one of the few reasons they do not really interact with the community. They know what players want so exchanging ideas makes no difference. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, set backs are a natural occurance in game development, and by having an established communication exchange with player base, you are only setting yourself and players up for bigger disappointments when those set backs occur. Logically, if you limit the amount of information released to the public, you cut down on negative feeback from the public when set backs occur. It's very clear to those with some sort of business understanding that they are taking the BEST stance in terms of PR. To take this concept even further, let's assume that game is a failure. What's better for a developer in such situation, having a strong PR with a massive fan base or a small self-developed community to dissapoint? Another clear sign they understand business and how to prepare yourself for possible situations.
Good points! I'll give you that. I'll also very much agree that the Development Team, at least under Razorwax flag, very much underestimated the progress and status of the game development. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't completely revamp the engine and pretty much everything during 2003-2004 years. If you look at the difference in available screenshots from 2002-2003 and 2004-present, you'll see that whole game was revamped from scratch. This said, whole argument of game being in development for almost 9 years is absurt. The development of the game we are speaking of hasn't began until late 2003. That said, game has been in development for approximately 6 years. I'll even further agree with you that even during this period of time they have underestimated the status of the game at multipule occassions, just as majority of serious game developers do. How many times has AoC been delayed? Even now with it's release it's a buggy piece of shit, as opposed to what they presumely promised it to be. Those are realities of software development, especially video games. As far as Aventurine goes, nobody will know the exac details of their projects, since they are MILITARY projects, which are logically strictly secured. Nevertheless, it's a valid company which has been able to reserve 20 million Euros (25M dollars, at the time) from an Investment Bank. Now, please, using realistic logic and business realities, what Bank would do that without some sort of valid guarantee that their money isn't going into shit? If that was the case, we'd have software developing studios on every corner of streets, at least in Greece. There are shitload of Naysayers in regards to Darkfall, yet none of them have any understanding of what is really going on. Aventurine's perspective is such as they could have not even make www.DarkfallOnline.com with it's face representation of the game and its community and it'd make completely no difference in terms of the ongoing development of the game. They have player experience through past games they played, they have technical experiences through their software development knowledge, and they have financial backing for their project. That's also one of the few reasons they do not really interact with the community. They know what players want so exchanging ideas makes no difference. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, set backs are a natural occurance in game development, and by having an established communication exchange with player base, you are only setting yourself and players up for bigger disappointments when those set backs occur. Logically, if you limit the amount of information released to the public, you cut down on negative feeback from the public when set backs occur. It's very clear to those with some sort of business understanding that they are taking the BEST stance in terms of PR. To take this concept even further, let's assume that game is a failure. What's better for a developer in such situation, having a strong PR with a massive fan base or a small self-developed community to dissapoint? Another clear sign they understand business and how to prepare yourself for possible situations.
We can discuss how long DF has been in dev in the thread dedicated to it. But I will tell you now, they didnt revamp the game from scratch, or they outright lied to us. No doubt they upgraded graphics, but that is not a game from scratch!
Secret military projects...whatever, I will just let that one go.
I think I covered the financials - investors lose tons of money every second of every day. Darkfall has already lost significant sums for one.
It would not surprise me if they think they know best and dont require any outside advice. Hey, they might be right. Wouldnt be my choice.
So, their PR strategy is to prepare for failure? It would explain alot.
Good points! I'll give you that. I'll also very much agree that the Development Team, at least under Razorwax flag, very much underestimated the progress and status of the game development. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't completely revamp the engine and pretty much everything during 2003-2004 years. If you look at the difference in available screenshots from 2002-2003 and 2004-present, you'll see that whole game was revamped from scratch. This said, whole argument of game being in development for almost 9 years is absurt. The development of the game we are speaking of hasn't began until late 2003. That said, game has been in development for approximately 6 years. I'll even further agree with you that even during this period of time they have underestimated the status of the game at multipule occassions, just as majority of serious game developers do. How many times has AoC been delayed? Even now with it's release it's a buggy piece of shit, as opposed to what they presumely promised it to be. Those are realities of software development, especially video games. As far as Aventurine goes, nobody will know the exac details of their projects, since they are MILITARY projects, which are logically strictly secured. Nevertheless, it's a valid company which has been able to reserve 20 million Euros (25M dollars, at the time) from an Investment Bank. Now, please, using realistic logic and business realities, what Bank would do that without some sort of valid guarantee that their money isn't going into shit? If that was the case, we'd have software developing studios on every corner of streets, at least in Greece. There are shitload of Naysayers in regards to Darkfall, yet none of them have any understanding of what is really going on. Aventurine's perspective is such as they could have not even make www.DarkfallOnline.com with it's face representation of the game and its community and it'd make completely no difference in terms of the ongoing development of the game. They have player experience through past games they played, they have technical experiences through their software development knowledge, and they have financial backing for their project. That's also one of the few reasons they do not really interact with the community. They know what players want so exchanging ideas makes no difference. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, set backs are a natural occurance in game development, and by having an established communication exchange with player base, you are only setting yourself and players up for bigger disappointments when those set backs occur. Logically, if you limit the amount of information released to the public, you cut down on negative feeback from the public when set backs occur. It's very clear to those with some sort of business understanding that they are taking the BEST stance in terms of PR. To take this concept even further, let's assume that game is a failure. What's better for a developer in such situation, having a strong PR with a massive fan base or a small self-developed community to dissapoint? Another clear sign they understand business and how to prepare yourself for possible situations.
We can discuss how long DF has been in dev in the thread dedicated to it. But I will tell you now, they didnt revamp the game from scratch, or they outright lied to us. No doubt they upgraded graphics, but that is not a game from scratch!
Secret military projects...whatever, I will just let that one go.
I think I covered the financials - investors lose tons of money every second of every day. Darkfall has already lost significant sums for one.
It would not surprise me if they think they know best and dont require any outside advice. Hey, they might be right. Wouldnt be my choice.
So, their PR strategy is to prepare for failure? It would explain alot.
If by simple graphic update you mean developing a whole new engine, which is a base and core for actual game development, and then actually developing new graphics, then sure, why not. As for timeline of development, there's nothing to discuss there. There are only facts. The game we are speaking of today has been in development since Q4 2003. Previous project has been scratched and new engine and coding has been in development since 2003.
If securing $25 million for a supposedly vaporware software is loosing money then those investors have to be a bunch of mentally challanged lab monkeys.
As for last part, don't twist my words please. It's not a PR strategy but business strategy, PR is PART of their business strategy. And yes preparing for a failure is a very important aspect of any business. If you can't see that then I seriously advise you to never engage yourself in any form of business, since you automatically present yourself as a failed businessman.
If by simple graphic update you mean developing a whole new engine, which is a base and core for actual game development, and then actually developing new graphics, then sure, why not. As for timeline of development, there's nothing to discuss there. There are only facts. The game we are speaking of today has been in development since Q4 2003. Previous project has been scratched and new engine and coding has been in development since 2003. If securing $25 million for a supposedly vaporware software is loosing money then those investors have to be a bunch of mentally challanged lab monkeys. As for last part, don't twist my words please. It's not a PR strategy but business strategy, PR is PART of their business strategy. And yes preparing for a failure is a very important aspect of any business. If you can't see that then I seriously advise you to never engage yourself in any form of business, since you automatically present yourself as a failed businessman.
Yes, that is what I mean, even though I never used the word "simple". As pointed out in the other thread, it is not the first time they have done it either. Besides saying that, I will leave the length of dev arguments in the appropriate thread.
Again, I never said it was vaporware, nor did I imply they got a loan on vaporware. My point still stands.
I am not trained in business or PR. And yet, I feel confident I could do better. Keep in mind, I have a high opinion of myself. (tossed that one in for my 'fans' out there!)
As far as Aventurine goes, nobody will know the exac details of their projects, since they are MILITARY projects, which are logically strictly secured. Nevertheless, it's a valid company which has been able to reserve 20 million Euros (25M dollars, at the time) from an Investment Bank. Now, please, using realistic logic and business realities, what Bank would do that without some sort of valid guarantee that their money isn't going into shit?
No bank would and that's exactly why they NEVER GOT A LOAN from any Bank.
I can't believe there's actually still people out there who believe this when it's been proven already that all they did was issue a convertible bond loan --> meaning they placed up convertible bonds for sale. Convertible bonds are debt instruments similar to loans that can be exchanged (or "converted") into company shares at a later date by the buyer or investor but of course there's a tiny catch ------> someone has to actually BUY YOUR BONDS FIRST which never happened. Issuing a bond loan or placing bonds up for purchase does not mean anyone bought any of them.
Marfin Bank was only acting as intermediary for the sale of convertible bonds on behalf of Aventurine , if anyone actually wanted to buy any from Aventurine that is. They did not give them a bank loan.
Ignorant fanboys (like yourself) perpetuated this myth that they got a loan from a Bank.
Originally posted by HolyCircle
As far as Aventurine goes, nobody will know the exac details of their projects, since they are MILITARY projects, which are logically strictly secured.
If you honestly believe this you need to go get your head examined.
As far as Aventurine goes, nobody will know the exac details of their projects, since they are MILITARY projects, which are logically strictly secured. Nevertheless, it's a valid company which has been able to reserve 20 million Euros (25M dollars, at the time) from an Investment Bank. Now, please, using realistic logic and business realities, what Bank would do that without some sort of valid guarantee that their money isn't going into shit?
No bank would and that's exactly why they NEVER GOT A LOAN from any Bank.
I can't believe there's actually still people out there who believe this when it's been proven already that all they did was issue a convertible bond loan --> meaning they placed up convertible bonds for sale. Convertible bonds are debt instruments similar to loans that can be exchanged (or "converted") into company shares at a later date by the buyer or investor but of course there's a tiny catch ------> someone has to actually BUY YOUR BONDS FIRST which never happened. Issuing a bond loan or placing bonds up for purchase does not mean anyone bought any of them.
Marfin Bank was only acting as intermediary for the sale of convertible bonds on behalf of Aventurine , if anyone actually wanted to buy any from Aventurine that is. They did not give them a bank loan.
Ignorant fanboys (like yourself) perpetuated this myth that they got a loan from a Bank.
Originally posted by HolyCircle
As far as Aventurine goes, nobody will know the exac details of their projects, since they are MILITARY projects, which are logically strictly secured.
If you honestly believe this you need to go get your head examined.
You are exactly correct! Finally someone with a bit of Financial Business smarts.
I have a degree in business and minored in finance (I know it means squat to people here, but for the sake of argument...) and in doing some research regarding Aventurine's "loan" nowhere could I find that they received an actual multi million dollar loan as most people think a loan to be, i.e actual monetary transaction lent to said party or simply put something lent or furnished on condition of being returned, esp. a sum of money lent at interest. A convertible bond (or convertible debenture) is a type of bond that can be converted into shares of stock in the issuing company usually at some pre-announced ratio.
What they received was not a LOAN! So you people who believe that Aventurine has $20+ million to spend on their "project" are completely wrong in this regard.
This is all for arguments sake to add to the conversation, but also to give you something to think about.
First thing, ask yourself, have you known ANY MMORPG company more secretive than Aventurine?
Let's assume that what Tasos has said is for real. Aventurine has Greek defense ties. They also have Lybian ties. These are why it takes so long for anything to get done with regards to DFO, because they are involved in a lot of other things that take priority over DFO. Let's assume that the Lybian connection is what is funding DFO. Lets say in December DFO launches and they get 300,000 subscribers.
Six months later we find out that Interpol is investigating Aventurine, all of it's employees and customers. Why? Again, making this up for arguments sake, come to find out the financier of DFO has ties to militant extremists. DFO turns out to be another front in funneling money into extremists hands.
Would you want to be part of that 300,000 making donations to organized crime of any kind? I know I don't. The way Aventurine has handled it's business practices is highly questionable at best. They are extremely secretive.
Here in America, you don't have NASA or the Air Force hiring out defense contractors to make simulators and weapon systems, and at the same time the company has a side project making video games. If the the government wants a videogame, they go find a video game company and contract them out to make a game for them. I don't think you are going to have Blizzard making stealth figther planes for the U.S. Navy any time soon.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Arguing with some of you is like attempting to explain quantum physics to a blind and deaf mentally retarded black albino midget with amputated limbs.
The reality is as following. The game is in development, and has been for a long time. Developers want to release a game as much possible bug free, which is why they are taking their time.
What boggles my mind to think that people question our could be described as blind following of the project yet those people, resident naysayers, put as much effort, if not more into bashing it. If you honestly believe game is never coming out, what's your point in being here? You put more effort into denying the game than we the followers into supporting it. To be honest, that's some pathological and disturbing behavior. Don't you have some of your MMOs to play or something, or is your source of gratification centered around fapping over your another comment bashing the game. Speaking of getting some mental check up...
Arguing with some of you is like attempting to explain quantum physics to a blind and deaf mentally retarded black albino midget with amputated limbs. The reality is as following. The game is in development, and has been for a long time. Developers want to release a game as much possible bug free, which is why they are taking their time. What boggles my mind to think that people question our could be described as blind following of the project yet those people, resident naysayers, put as much effort, if not more into bashing it. If you honestly believe game is never coming out, what's your point in being here? You put more effort into denying the game than we the followers into supporting it. To be honest, that's some pathological and disturbing behavior. Don't you have some of your MMOs to play or something, or is your source of gratification centered around fapping over your another comment bashing the game. Speaking of getting some mental check up...
Good Grief! This post barely makes sense but you sound very excited! Yay?
This is all for arguments sake to add to the conversation, but also to give you something to think about. First thing, ask yourself, have you known ANY MMORPG company more secretive than Aventurine? Let's assume that what Tasos has said is for real. Aventurine has Greek defense ties. They also have Lybian ties. These are why it takes so long for anything to get done with regards to DFO, because they are involved in a lot of other things that take priority over DFO. Let's assume that the Lybian connection is what is funding DFO. Lets say in December DFO launches and they get 300,000 subscribers. Six months later we find out that Interpol is investigating Aventurine, all of it's employees and customers. Why? Again, making this up for arguments sake, come to find out the financier of DFO has ties to militant extremists. DFO turns out to be another front in funneling money into extremists hands. Would you want to be part of that 300,000 making donations to organized crime of any kind? I know I don't. The way Aventurine has handled it's business practices is highly questionable at best. They are extremely secretive. Here in America, you don't have NASA or the Air Force hiring out defense contractors to make simulators and weapon systems, and at the same time the company has a side project making video games. If the the government wants a videogame, they go find a video game company and contract them out to make a game for them. I don't think you are going to have Blizzard making stealth figther planes for the U.S. Navy any time soon.
Well, there you go. What better money laundering front for terrorists could there be than software development? Money comes in for "development", money gets "spent" for "development", Libyans are the "development".
Ya know, with all the secrecy on Aventurines' part, I think this ( almost ) implausible scenario actually makes more sense than anything Tasos has ever put forth. And that's pretty damn sad.
Ya know, with all the secrecy on Aventurines' part, I think this ( almost ) implausible scenario actually makes more sense than anything Tasos has ever put forth. And that's pretty damn sad.
It's not as implausible as you might think. There were actually terrorists running around in World of Warcraft advertising themselves
Ya know, with all the secrecy on Aventurines' part, I think this ( almost ) implausible scenario actually makes more sense than anything Tasos has ever put forth. And that's pretty damn sad.
It's not as implausible as you might think. There were actually terrorists running around in World of Warcraft advertising themselves
Majestico, the forums are not the "community" because the game has yet to be released. Many people and myself included do not post or read the official forums but are still waiting for Darkfall. If you think that retarded kids do not lurk in every mmo then you need to find a new hobby.
Whow, wait a minute. The DF community are as real as any other community. Maybe even more. They have talked with eachother for seven years. Thats longer then any WoW players have. So think how good it will be if DF is released!
Comments
Good post in many parts with strongest part your dedication to said community prior to 2005.
However you mistake, being objective with "shoot the developers". According to your opinion that should be the type of "objectivity", your favorite choice after 2005, for the community to apply. Quaint , you leave, community lost objectivity hehe..but that just as side note.
Maybe extensive 'I hope this game is released soon' threads are appropriate then for to establish said "objectivity".
Statements about how the "community" reacted poorly to you ONCE when you asked a stupid (because you are lazy) question makea you look like one of the many people who would rather see DF fail.
Also anyone who thinks gankers will be huge in DF is silly and does not know much about the game.
1.) You cannot see the persons level/skill/name
Most gankers/griefers will ONLY fight if they 100% know they can win. In every other game (AoC, WoW, ect..) you know if you have a good chance aginst a person or not, but no so in darkfall. Wepons and armor will look more realistic also you you will be "blind" when trying to attack someone. (ie gankers and griefers are cowards and they will not gank random people becuase attacking anyone could have huge ramifications, death for yourself, major guilds/well liked people become your enemies ect..)
Bah dont want to finish this now ill make a seperate post and enumerate my thoughts.
This is wrong. Gankers travel in large groups, and attack people 5 on 1. So not knowing the other persons level won't make any differenceAnd gankers will have an alt account so they don't have to worry about reputation
And gankers will have an alt account so they don't have to worry about reputation
I agree... some people will have a second account just for being PKs.
Btw, the reason Darkfall's forums are crap is because the intelligent members always end up getting banned when they get mad about the broken promises and lies. The first major cull was in 2004, most of the active original community members were banned in 2004 and 2005. That's also why they got rid of user registration dates and post counts, because people get weirded out and bail if they see all the veteran members of a forum are being banned and it's only all noobs that are left there, especially when it is an official community for a game in development. For about a year every month or so someone at the forum would show up with registration from 2001 and tell all the lies the devs had told, then the noobs on the forum would be like, "OMG, wats, izzit truues????" and then the veteran community member would get banned, lol.
In terms of the sociology of Internet communities, Darkfall is a really weird and interesting example. It shows you how easy it is for the weak minded to be manipulated, and this is how cult leaders arise everywhere and get a bunch of retards to let them rape their children and go kill people.... Weak minded people are so strange, it is really hard to understand what is wrong with them, but Darkfall is a case study in that, just with some very minor and obvious psychological manipulations like promise people you will create the "ultimate" game, and then no matter what you do there will be this core of mentally deficient people who love you just for the promise and will be happy even to die for you..... strange, indeed.
Anyway, the Darkfall community originally was really awesome, it was filled with people with big ideas and dreams about the future of MMORPGs, a lot of really smart folks who wanted to see a game with real player freedom to create a new paradigm in video games.... but all those guys got banned a long time ago for speaking the truth, lol.
Anyway, I followed Darkfall since 2001, but it has been obvious since 2005 [if you had followed it] at the latest that there was no game. Darkfall is some kind of scam. I think it started out as a real game project, but somewhere along they found a way to milk it for money and they found out they couldn't make a game, and since then they've just been trying to keep the status quo alive and milk it as long as possible... That's the best guess of anyone who followed the game closely from the early days.
That forum community used to be cool, though. It's sad what happened to it.
Give this man a Medal.
Well actually i am still hoping that DFO will be released some day.
But i try not to have too much hopes, that's what i did for Horizons (sounded cool but got horrible) or other games which never made it to release.
What i don't like on DFO community in official Forums is... SPAM! Everything get's spammed badly. If a new member asks a simple question which could be answered with 1 sentence they just jump this thread, post "read the FAQ" or "use search" and start spamming. Everything.
Sometims i am actually surprised that some threads don't get spammed that much, but the mass is spam
Yes, clearly Darkfall is a scam. No doubt! But wait... I'm a little bit confused here... If it's a scam then.... What are they scamming people of? Cookies and milk? Scam involves one party jacking another party's money. Did they take money from any of you? Did they set pre-orders or pre-subscription? Did they sell you Darkfall Underwear and never delievered it? What is it then?
What! Maybe Aventurine is scamming some investors? But.... Who? Isn't Aventurine a well established and respected Defense Contracting Company developing Simulator Systems for Governments and Military with a multimillion dollar budget at hand? It is! Oh geee.... Another bum in the Scam theory... I'm so damn dissappointed!
http://www.asdsource.com/source_detail_small/2882/Aventurine_SA.htm
Damn those Aventurine Scammers! They are Scamming us of [INSTER YOUR SILLY IMAGINATIONS HERE]!!!
Oh and obviously we are dealing with inexperienced and out of garage developers! I mean, how much experience in programming can have people who develop War Simulating Systems, Command Control Systems and Geographic Information Systems for Militaries? Silly newb amateur programers!
Oh, and look at that. How would any professional banker would dare to provide funds to that silly group of amateurs we are speaking of. That damn Athens-based Proton Investment Bank SA of Greece provided Aventurine with a 20 million euro convertible bond. I mean, we are CLEARLY dealing with a Vaporware here, so why would anyone with a right mind, especially a world wide recognized and respected Investment Bank, do such a thing? That's just sooooo silly. Clearly those bankers there are up for a big disappointment. I guess they didn't care to professionally check and inspect the seriousness, or as WE of right mind would say lack of seriousness, of this project.
AMMM I RIGHT GUYYZZZ!!! DARKFALLLZZ IS A VAPORWAREZ! Silly amateur Military contractors and silly professional Investment Bankers! WHADDA BUNCH OF NEWBZ, LAWLZ.
First let me say, I dont think Darkfall is a scam. I think they bit off more than they can chew, yes, and I would even go so far as to say they have lied (outright or by omission) about the condition of their game. But I think there is a game.
Now, about your link...please! It makes them an expert in jack squat. If you click on the link to Aventurine from that site, you get this:
http://www.aventurine.gr/
In addition, did you happen to notice this link?
http://www.asdsource.com/source_add.asp
Yeah, you can put that crap in for free.
Here is a quote from Tasos about their company:
Aventurine was originally formed to fund and publish Darkfall.[snip] Its activities, other than Darkfall, are research into game and simulation technologies. We've also advised war-game simulation military projects in the past through other companies in our group, activities that have given us some valuable perspectives to be used in game development. The company also sponsors and supports sporting events, athletes, and competitive gaming tournaments. Aventurine is organized under the laws of Greece and the European Union as an S.A. Corporation.
http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/devjournals/darkfalljournals/3331-Darkfall-Developer-
They ADVISED war-game simulation military projects in the past through other companies in their group. WAY different. They formed as a company to fund and publish Darkfall. This is no "well established and respected defense contractor", it is ridiculous to even suggest such a thing.
And investors? They may well have secured monies in Greece, I would hope so, since that was Aventurines purpose. In fact, as Razorwax, they had an investor too! He only lost $514,000 though.
http://www.anvilsociety.com/wax/trondheier.htm
Good points! I'll give you that.
I'll also very much agree that the Development Team, at least under Razorwax flag, very much underestimated the progress and status of the game development. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't completely revamp the engine and pretty much everything during 2003-2004 years. If you look at the difference in available screenshots from 2002-2003 and 2004-present, you'll see that whole game was revamped from scratch. This said, whole argument of game being in development for almost 9 years is absurt. The development of the game we are speaking of hasn't began until late 2003. That said, game has been in development for approximately 6 years. I'll even further agree with you that even during this period of time they have underestimated the status of the game at multipule occassions, just as majority of serious game developers do. How many times has AoC been delayed? Even now with it's release it's a buggy piece of shit, as opposed to what they presumely promised it to be. Those are realities of software development, especially video games.
As far as Aventurine goes, nobody will know the exac details of their projects, since they are MILITARY projects, which are logically strictly secured. Nevertheless, it's a valid company which has been able to reserve 20 million Euros (25M dollars, at the time) from an Investment Bank. Now, please, using realistic logic and business realities, what Bank would do that without some sort of valid guarantee that their money isn't going into shit? If that was the case, we'd have software developing studios on every corner of streets, at least in Greece.
There are shitload of Naysayers in regards to Darkfall, yet none of them have any understanding of what is really going on. Aventurine's perspective is such as they could have not even make www.DarkfallOnline.com with it's face representation of the game and its community and it'd make completely no difference in terms of the ongoing development of the game. They have player experience through past games they played, they have technical experiences through their software development knowledge, and they have financial backing for their project. That's also one of the few reasons they do not really interact with the community. They know what players want so exchanging ideas makes no difference. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, set backs are a natural occurance in game development, and by having an established communication exchange with player base, you are only setting yourself and players up for bigger disappointments when those set backs occur. Logically, if you limit the amount of information released to the public, you cut down on negative feeback from the public when set backs occur. It's very clear to those with some sort of business understanding that they are taking the BEST stance in terms of PR. To take this concept even further, let's assume that game is a failure. What's better for a developer in such situation, having a strong PR with a massive fan base or a small self-developed community to dissapoint? Another clear sign they understand business and how to prepare yourself for possible situations.
We can discuss how long DF has been in dev in the thread dedicated to it. But I will tell you now, they didnt revamp the game from scratch, or they outright lied to us. No doubt they upgraded graphics, but that is not a game from scratch!
Secret military projects...whatever, I will just let that one go.
I think I covered the financials - investors lose tons of money every second of every day. Darkfall has already lost significant sums for one.
It would not surprise me if they think they know best and dont require any outside advice. Hey, they might be right. Wouldnt be my choice.
So, their PR strategy is to prepare for failure? It would explain alot.
We can discuss how long DF has been in dev in the thread dedicated to it. But I will tell you now, they didnt revamp the game from scratch, or they outright lied to us. No doubt they upgraded graphics, but that is not a game from scratch!
Secret military projects...whatever, I will just let that one go.
I think I covered the financials - investors lose tons of money every second of every day. Darkfall has already lost significant sums for one.
It would not surprise me if they think they know best and dont require any outside advice. Hey, they might be right. Wouldnt be my choice.
So, their PR strategy is to prepare for failure? It would explain alot.
If by simple graphic update you mean developing a whole new engine, which is a base and core for actual game development, and then actually developing new graphics, then sure, why not. As for timeline of development, there's nothing to discuss there. There are only facts. The game we are speaking of today has been in development since Q4 2003. Previous project has been scratched and new engine and coding has been in development since 2003.
If securing $25 million for a supposedly vaporware software is loosing money then those investors have to be a bunch of mentally challanged lab monkeys.
As for last part, don't twist my words please. It's not a PR strategy but business strategy, PR is PART of their business strategy. And yes preparing for a failure is a very important aspect of any business. If you can't see that then I seriously advise you to never engage yourself in any form of business, since you automatically present yourself as a failed businessman.
Yes, that is what I mean, even though I never used the word "simple". As pointed out in the other thread, it is not the first time they have done it either. Besides saying that, I will leave the length of dev arguments in the appropriate thread.
Again, I never said it was vaporware, nor did I imply they got a loan on vaporware. My point still stands.
I am not trained in business or PR. And yet, I feel confident I could do better. Keep in mind, I have a high opinion of myself. (tossed that one in for my 'fans' out there!)
No bank would and that's exactly why they NEVER GOT A LOAN from any Bank.
I can't believe there's actually still people out there who believe this when it's been proven already that all they did was issue a convertible bond loan --> meaning they placed up convertible bonds for sale. Convertible bonds are debt instruments similar to loans that can be exchanged (or "converted") into company shares at a later date by the buyer or investor but of course there's a tiny catch ------> someone has to actually BUY YOUR BONDS FIRST which never happened. Issuing a bond loan or placing bonds up for purchase does not mean anyone bought any of them.
Marfin Bank was only acting as intermediary for the sale of convertible bonds on behalf of Aventurine , if anyone actually wanted to buy any from Aventurine that is. They did not give them a bank loan.
Ignorant fanboys (like yourself) perpetuated this myth that they got a loan from a Bank.
If you honestly believe this you need to go get your head examined.
No bank would and that's exactly why they NEVER GOT A LOAN from any Bank.
I can't believe there's actually still people out there who believe this when it's been proven already that all they did was issue a convertible bond loan --> meaning they placed up convertible bonds for sale. Convertible bonds are debt instruments similar to loans that can be exchanged (or "converted") into company shares at a later date by the buyer or investor but of course there's a tiny catch ------> someone has to actually BUY YOUR BONDS FIRST which never happened. Issuing a bond loan or placing bonds up for purchase does not mean anyone bought any of them.
Marfin Bank was only acting as intermediary for the sale of convertible bonds on behalf of Aventurine , if anyone actually wanted to buy any from Aventurine that is. They did not give them a bank loan.
Ignorant fanboys (like yourself) perpetuated this myth that they got a loan from a Bank.
If you honestly believe this you need to go get your head examined.
You are exactly correct! Finally someone with a bit of Financial Business smarts.
I have a degree in business and minored in finance (I know it means squat to people here, but for the sake of argument...) and in doing some research regarding Aventurine's "loan" nowhere could I find that they received an actual multi million dollar loan as most people think a loan to be, i.e actual monetary transaction lent to said party or simply put something lent or furnished on condition of being returned, esp. a sum of money lent at interest. A convertible bond (or convertible debenture) is a type of bond that can be converted into shares of stock in the issuing company usually at some pre-announced ratio.
What they received was not a LOAN! So you people who believe that Aventurine has $20+ million to spend on their "project" are completely wrong in this regard.
This is all for arguments sake to add to the conversation, but also to give you something to think about.
First thing, ask yourself, have you known ANY MMORPG company more secretive than Aventurine?
Let's assume that what Tasos has said is for real. Aventurine has Greek defense ties. They also have Lybian ties. These are why it takes so long for anything to get done with regards to DFO, because they are involved in a lot of other things that take priority over DFO. Let's assume that the Lybian connection is what is funding DFO. Lets say in December DFO launches and they get 300,000 subscribers.
Six months later we find out that Interpol is investigating Aventurine, all of it's employees and customers. Why? Again, making this up for arguments sake, come to find out the financier of DFO has ties to militant extremists. DFO turns out to be another front in funneling money into extremists hands.
Would you want to be part of that 300,000 making donations to organized crime of any kind? I know I don't. The way Aventurine has handled it's business practices is highly questionable at best. They are extremely secretive.
Here in America, you don't have NASA or the Air Force hiring out defense contractors to make simulators and weapon systems, and at the same time the company has a side project making video games. If the the government wants a videogame, they go find a video game company and contract them out to make a game for them. I don't think you are going to have Blizzard making stealth figther planes for the U.S. Navy any time soon.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Arguing with some of you is like attempting to explain quantum physics to a blind and deaf mentally retarded black albino midget with amputated limbs.
The reality is as following. The game is in development, and has been for a long time. Developers want to release a game as much possible bug free, which is why they are taking their time.
What boggles my mind to think that people question our could be described as blind following of the project yet those people, resident naysayers, put as much effort, if not more into bashing it. If you honestly believe game is never coming out, what's your point in being here? You put more effort into denying the game than we the followers into supporting it. To be honest, that's some pathological and disturbing behavior. Don't you have some of your MMOs to play or something, or is your source of gratification centered around fapping over your another comment bashing the game. Speaking of getting some mental check up...
Good Grief! This post barely makes sense but you sound very excited! Yay?
What does it really matter seeing Darkfall is the poster child for vapourware?
I dont think the devs care what DF are poster child for. It could be a program to get money to help snowblinded house cats, for all they care.
Well, there you go. What better money laundering front for terrorists could there be than software development? Money comes in for "development", money gets "spent" for "development", Libyans are the "development".
Ya know, with all the secrecy on Aventurines' part, I think this ( almost ) implausible scenario actually makes more sense than anything Tasos has ever put forth. And that's pretty damn sad.
It's not as implausible as you might think. There were actually terrorists running around in World of Warcraft advertising themselves
It's not as implausible as you might think. There were actually terrorists running around in World of Warcraft advertising themselves
Majestico, the forums are not the "community" because the game has yet to be released. Many people and myself included do not post or read the official forums but are still waiting for Darkfall. If you think that retarded kids do not lurk in every mmo then you need to find a new hobby.
Whow, wait a minute. The DF community are as real as any other community. Maybe even more. They have talked with eachother for seven years. Thats longer then any WoW players have. So think how good it will be if DF is released!