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Community first/ combat second
jiveturkey12
Member CommonPosts: 1,262
Will we ever see a MMO where the core mechanics are based on Community building tools first and then combat second?
Seriously the whole reason I like MMO's is because I like meeting new people and Roleplaying in an online enviornment. O and let me say this first off just in case anyone decides to say something, I do personally meet new people in real life all the time, with work, school, partys, or other events.
I just play MMO's for the similar feeling but being able to be someone else in the process.
So will we ever see an MMO where people can build communities, buildings, cities, worlds. and then fight second?
-Jive
Comments
Your looking for more of a sandbox style game which sadly seemed to become taboo in developers eyes about 3-4 years ago
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I sure hope so, this trend of instancing doesn't help build communities and enable random encounters with other players.
Also the trend of quest experience based games does not foster the type of cooperation that combat experience games created.
Aye, while its nice to have quests and all, most games today make grouping more of a wham-bam-thank you ma'am than games where actually getting to know others was a big part of the fun.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I completely agree, Im sick of quest based games, and instancing. I want something I can really sink my teeth into.
For example in AoC, I love to fight, the combat is amazing, and I would honestly grind all day, but they made it so you grind quests, and not mobs.
It sickens me.
-Jive
Heh, people CAN create communities in many MMO's. Gamers simply choose not to. The "Players" focus on how far they can get, or what new shiny object they can get. What they can achieve. how many levels they can churn out or if hey can be "First" in many facets of games. It is not the fault of the developers that players choose such paths. Nor is it the place of a dev to MAKE players do such a thing. When they try to make things more group oriented, or "force" people into more content requiring more than a solo toon, you hear outcry of how they need to be able to solo coz they do not want to group. Nor do we need strictly "Sandbox" games, or a specific type of game. It takes the right type of GamER.
Tell ya what, I am gonna be playing WAR when it launches. You want to have people to play with, or chat with while you are in a game, chat with me. I am open to talkin to people (If you can handle a bit of sarcasm and some bad puns from time to time) If not, I am sure every game has a forum that you can ask for a friend on.
You have a point. I really cant get into an MMO if I dont have people to talk to, and most people today are all about achievment and about as social as a brick.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Although I do find that a big issue, its not just that, the developers choose to make the game very distant in construction nowadays.
Take SWG for Example, you had doctors, who worked in a hospital, so everyone who needed healed would go to the hospital, Social Hub.
You have Dancers/muscians who stayed in a cantina, and people who needed buffed or healed would go there to listen or watch them, Social Hub.
You had star ports with 10 minute waits before the next ship arrived, so people would stand around together waiting Social Hub.
See what I mean?
-Jive
Although I do find that a big issue, its not just that, the developers choose to make the game very distant in construction nowadays.
Take SWG for Example, you had doctors, who worked in a hospital, so everyone who needed healed would go to the hospital, Social Hub.
You have Dancers/muscians who stayed in a cantina, and people who needed buffed or healed would go there to listen or watch them, Social Hub.
You had star ports with 10 minute waits before the next ship arrived, so people would stand around together waiting Social Hub.
See what I mean?
-Jive
Not sure I do see what you mean. I can comprehend what you are trying to say, but I see flaws in it. Oky, so you went to a doctor for a social environment. You went to a pub for a drink (See thread "An AoC player, a WAR player, and a WoW player walk into a bar.." hehe) So, what is stopping you from creating a social atmosphere in other games, or in other places?
WoW is one of the heaviest "Raid-centric" games where players INSIST (and cry if they do not get their way) on having the entire game be able to be solo'd. Not a real "Social" game. Yet (As an example) my wife and I went into a main town, did a little shouting about holding a beauty contest/pageant of some sort. Gave time it would begin, promised some prizes, and gave ample time for people to show up and socialize, but did not make it overly long so as to lose the attention of the people who have yet to develop their attention span to a mature level. People showed up, we chatted, made friends, held a contest where people emoted their way down a "Catwalk" and let the audience decide the finalists and our self made "Panel of judges" (A few guild mates who came to join the fun) declared a winner and runners up. From that short spurt of not achieving anything "tangible" we instead made several friends which we grouped with, hunted with, and were requested to hold similar pageants in other towns in short time after that. I could tell many other tales of ways we "made friends" if ya wanna hear me. Otherwise, best I can ay is that the social element of a game is not located in a hospital, or pub. It is in the spirit and mind of the players playing the game.
Although I do find that a big issue, its not just that, the developers choose to make the game very distant in construction nowadays.
Take SWG for Example, you had doctors, who worked in a hospital, so everyone who needed healed would go to the hospital, Social Hub.
You have Dancers/muscians who stayed in a cantina, and people who needed buffed or healed would go there to listen or watch them, Social Hub.
You had star ports with 10 minute waits before the next ship arrived, so people would stand around together waiting Social Hub.
See what I mean?
-Jive
Not sure I do see what you mean. I can comprehend what you are trying to say, but I see flaws in it. Oky, so you went to a doctor for a social environment. You went to a pub for a drink (See thread "An AoC player, a WAR player, and a WoW player walk into a bar.." hehe) So, what is stopping you from creating a social atmosphere in other games, or in other places?
WoW is one of the heaviest "Raid-centric" games where players INSIST (and cry if they do not get their way) on having the entire game be able to be solo'd. Not a real "Social" game. Yet (As an example) my wife and I went into a main town, did a little shouting about holding a beauty contest/pageant of some sort. Gave time it would begin, promised some prizes, and gave ample time for people to show up and socialize, but did not make it overly long so as to lose the attention of the people who have yet to develop their attention span to a mature level. People showed up, we chatted, made friends, held a contest where people emoted their way down a "Catwalk" and let the audience decide the finalists and our self made "Panel of judges" (A few guild mates who came to join the fun) declared a winner and runners up. From that short spurt of not achieving anything "tangible" we instead made several friends which we grouped with, hunted with, and were requested to hold similar pageants in other towns in short time after that. I could tell many other tales of ways we "made friends" if ya wanna hear me. Otherwise, best I can ay is that the social element of a game is not located in a hospital, or pub. It is in the spirit and mind of the players playing the game.
I see what your saying, yes you can use your imagination, and make events and friends yourself, use your own example in a practical way, how many times can you honestly go run a beauty pagent in the center of town before it becomes tedious and boring.
Now what if you could make a hair salon, or maybe a building for the pagents, then you would have something to call your own, you have upkeep on it, and you have people coming to the building to watch your events. Then someone else plants a building right next to yours and start his own beauty show.
Let me expand...
Games like WoW, or Tabula Rasa are limited in the sense of what You can add to the world. Sure anyone can go in the streets and talk and make an event happen. Ive done it, we all have. But who can say, I created a guild hall in the middle of nowhere, then built some houses, then a few shops, and now its a city.
Im talking about making a real world here, the game letting you actually be part of a living world. To what you said earlier, the game is located in a hospital or a pub, because its a familiar place, its somewhere you know where to go, its somewhere you are garenteed interaction with other players. Why should I have to work for my game to be social. Why should have to run out and build a city, or start a beauty show.
Why cant the game let me be social from the star by providing areas for me to be social, and then letting me expand on it. Thats what a community based game is, its a game that gives you a community and lets you make the rest. The Social hubs are their for player interaction, and for you to grow a community, then its up to you to make the rest of the world.
-Jive
I see what your saying, yes you can use your imagination, and make events and friends yourself, use your own example in a practical way, how many times can you honestly go run a beauty pagent in the center of town before it becomes tedious and boring.
Now what if you could make a hair salon, or maybe a building for the pagents, then you would have something to call your own, you have upkeep on it, and you have people coming to the building to watch your events. Then someone else plants a building right next to yours and start his own beauty show.
Let me expand...
Games like WoW, or Tabula Rasa are limited in the sense of what You can add to the world. Sure anyone can go in the streets and talk and make an event happen. Ive done it, we all have. But who can say, I created a guild hall in the middle of nowhere, then built some houses, then a few shops, and now its a city.
Im talking about making a real world here, the game letting you actually be part of a living world. To what you said earlier, the game is located in a hospital or a pub, because its a familiar place, its somewhere you know where to go, its somewhere you are garenteed interaction with other players. Why should I have to work for my game to be social. Why should have to run out and build a city, or start a beauty show.
Why cant the game let me be social from the star by providing areas for me to be social, and then letting me expand on it. Thats what a community based game is, its a game that gives you a community and lets you make the rest. The Social hubs are their for player interaction, and for you to grow a community, then its up to you to make the rest of the world.
-Jive
I can run several beauty pageants. Can hold many contests. It is not difficult to have an on going event of "Earths Greatest..." and change it from the greatest X to Y to Z. That is not however the point. The POINT is that if you honestly want to be social, to build a community, to establish bonds with people whether short term, or as long as you wish. The outlet is there by simply logging in. Hell, you do not even have to log in. You can go to the Forums, which strangely enough are also commonly referred to as a "COMMUNITY Website" and take a few minor steps to set things in motion toward propelling yourself to the center of a community. It is not in the LEAST bit difficult.
OORRR, you can choose to hold a one man pity party and come up with every reason you c an possibly concoct as to why you do not have friends, or can not make friends, and how tht is everyones fault but your own. I have given examples, and plausible antidotes to the situation INCLUDING offering myself. You can CHOOSE to accept the solution (s).
You said you wanted a game that has a community. Again I say, the community is not in a game mechanic, it is in the core of the PLAYER. If you want a town building Simulation, first off you can pick up a copy of SIM City at your local game retailer (That is a bit of humor) and then, there are several games which offer game mechanics for building player towns. As you mentioned, SWG. There used to be an abundance of player built towns. I wil not get off on an Anti SWG tangent tho. There are enough of those already. Then of course Ultima Online. One of "The originals" in all of MMO-dome. Horizons/Istaria. Even EQ2 and LORTO for more wll knon games have player housing, and Neighborhoods. Several people from several of these games use their houses as "shops" and you can go to them for a doctor, or weaponsmith, etc. THAT however is not "Community" that is "Commerce." Thus my sying your argument has flaws. The fundamentals of what a "Community" is are being rather drowned out and replaced by the want of "Things" (Such as a shop. A shop does not a community make)
Maybe 9-10 years ago...these days people are more concerned with the ? and ! over NPC heads.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Most are, yeah. That is not EXACTLY the devs fault. The players have to care about someone outside of themselves before they will engage meaningfully outside of themselves. 10 years ago, player were on average adults, mostly mature adults, and contained a large quantity of Role Players. Not the case anymore. Simple mathematical equations provide the answers as to why, but such players, and "Community" driven players have become a minority. We still exist tho! And as I mentioned a few posts back, if anyone wants a bit of a smll "Community" I will be found in WAR when it launches.
I see what your saying, yes you can use your imagination, and make events and friends yourself, use your own example in a practical way, how many times can you honestly go run a beauty pagent in the center of town before it becomes tedious and boring.
Now what if you could make a hair salon, or maybe a building for the pagents, then you would have something to call your own, you have upkeep on it, and you have people coming to the building to watch your events. Then someone else plants a building right next to yours and start his own beauty show.
Let me expand...
Games like WoW, or Tabula Rasa are limited in the sense of what You can add to the world. Sure anyone can go in the streets and talk and make an event happen. Ive done it, we all have. But who can say, I created a guild hall in the middle of nowhere, then built some houses, then a few shops, and now its a city.
Im talking about making a real world here, the game letting you actually be part of a living world. To what you said earlier, the game is located in a hospital or a pub, because its a familiar place, its somewhere you know where to go, its somewhere you are garenteed interaction with other players. Why should I have to work for my game to be social. Why should have to run out and build a city, or start a beauty show.
Why cant the game let me be social from the star by providing areas for me to be social, and then letting me expand on it. Thats what a community based game is, its a game that gives you a community and lets you make the rest. The Social hubs are their for player interaction, and for you to grow a community, then its up to you to make the rest of the world.
-Jive
I can run several beauty pageants. Can hold many contests. It is not difficult to have an on going event of "Earths Greatest..." and change it from the greatest X to Y to Z. That is not however the point. The POINT is that if you honestly want to be social, to build a community, to establish bonds with people whether short term, or as long as you wish. The outlet is there by simply logging in. Hell, you do not even have to log in. You can go to the Forums, which strangely enough are also commonly referred to as a "COMMUNITY Website" and take a few minor steps to set things in motion toward propelling yourself to the center of a community. It is not in the LEAST bit difficult.
OORRR, you can choose to hold a one man pity party and come up with every reason you c an possibly concoct as to why you do not have friends, or can not make friends, and how tht is everyones fault but your own. I have given examples, and plausible antidotes to the situation INCLUDING offering myself. You can CHOOSE to accept the solution (s).
You said you wanted a game that has a community. Again I say, the community is not in a game mechanic, it is in the core of the PLAYER. If you want a town building Simulation, first off you can pick up a copy of SIM City at your local game retailer (That is a bit of humor) and then, there are several games which offer game mechanics for building player towns. As you mentioned, SWG. There used to be an abundance of player built towns. I wil not get off on an Anti SWG tangent tho. There are enough of those already. Then of course Ultima Online. One of "The originals" in all of MMO-dome. Horizons/Istaria. Even EQ2 and LORTO for more wll knon games have player housing, and Neighborhoods. Several people from several of these games use their houses as "shops" and you can go to them for a doctor, or weaponsmith, etc. THAT however is not "Community" that is "Commerce." Thus my sying your argument has flaws. The fundamentals of what a "Community" is are being rather drowned out and replaced by the want of "Things" (Such as a shop. A shop does not a community make)
When did I ever say, I dont make friends in game? I think your missing the main point, what is a forum? what is a mmo? its all a community building tool, somewhere along the line there has to be a "Thing" as you so simply put it, that builds the community.
Why should the developer stop at a forum or just the average game mechanics? Why cant they allow you to build more of a community in game by adding in features that enhance the players experiance? Or is it the players fault becuase they dont "Have a great imagination"? So your saying there is no responsibilty to the developer to allow you to build up your community in game?
Now look at both our post and see whose theories really have flaws in it?
Theres my theory, which is that I want a game where the developers add in community building tools, and allow you to help shape the world, in your own way.
Then there is your theory, where we have players that simply move around a game world, with no mechanics of their own to make the world unique for themselves.
This is an obvious dispute of someone who likes linear games like yourself, and a person like me who likes games to allow me to have some sort of freedom with what I do and create.
-Jive
So you want a chatroom in a Fantasy setting with shiny graphics? Heh, just kidding. People like violence, and to me the only thing better than grinding is grinding with a friend. Or just doing stuff with other people. Maybe the combat comes first, but it's not like the community is left behind in the dust. I'm sure every niche has to be filled eventually, so I'm sure something like this will come along if it hasn't already. It's a new viewpoint at least, always good for an industry.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
I see what your saying, yes you can use your imagination, and make events and friends yourself, use your own example in a practical way, how many times can you honestly go run a beauty pagent in the center of town before it becomes tedious and boring.
Now what if you could make a hair salon, or maybe a building for the pagents, then you would have something to call your own, you have upkeep on it, and you have people coming to the building to watch your events. Then someone else plants a building right next to yours and start his own beauty show.
Let me expand...
Games like WoW, or Tabula Rasa are limited in the sense of what You can add to the world. Sure anyone can go in the streets and talk and make an event happen. Ive done it, we all have. But who can say, I created a guild hall in the middle of nowhere, then built some houses, then a few shops, and now its a city.
Im talking about making a real world here, the game letting you actually be part of a living world. To what you said earlier, the game is located in a hospital or a pub, because its a familiar place, its somewhere you know where to go, its somewhere you are garenteed interaction with other players. Why should I have to work for my game to be social. Why should have to run out and build a city, or start a beauty show.
Why cant the game let me be social from the star by providing areas for me to be social, and then letting me expand on it. Thats what a community based game is, its a game that gives you a community and lets you make the rest. The Social hubs are their for player interaction, and for you to grow a community, then its up to you to make the rest of the world.
-Jive
I can run several beauty pageants. Can hold many contests. It is not difficult to have an on going event of "Earths Greatest..." and change it from the greatest X to Y to Z. That is not however the point. The POINT is that if you honestly want to be social, to build a community, to establish bonds with people whether short term, or as long as you wish. The outlet is there by simply logging in. Hell, you do not even have to log in. You can go to the Forums, which strangely enough are also commonly referred to as a "COMMUNITY Website" and take a few minor steps to set things in motion toward propelling yourself to the center of a community. It is not in the LEAST bit difficult.
OORRR, you can choose to hold a one man pity party and come up with every reason you c an possibly concoct as to why you do not have friends, or can not make friends, and how tht is everyones fault but your own. I have given examples, and plausible antidotes to the situation INCLUDING offering myself. You can CHOOSE to accept the solution (s).
You said you wanted a game that has a community. Again I say, the community is not in a game mechanic, it is in the core of the PLAYER. If you want a town building Simulation, first off you can pick up a copy of SIM City at your local game retailer (That is a bit of humor) and then, there are several games which offer game mechanics for building player towns. As you mentioned, SWG. There used to be an abundance of player built towns. I wil not get off on an Anti SWG tangent tho. There are enough of those already. Then of course Ultima Online. One of "The originals" in all of MMO-dome. Horizons/Istaria. Even EQ2 and LORTO for more wll knon games have player housing, and Neighborhoods. Several people from several of these games use their houses as "shops" and you can go to them for a doctor, or weaponsmith, etc. THAT however is not "Community" that is "Commerce." Thus my sying your argument has flaws. The fundamentals of what a "Community" is are being rather drowned out and replaced by the want of "Things" (Such as a shop. A shop does not a community make)
When did I ever say, I dont make friends in game? I think your missing the main point, what is a forum? what is a mmo? its all a community building tool, somewhere along the line there has to be a "Thing" as you so simply put it, that builds the community.
Why should the developer stop at a forum or just the average game mechanics? Why cant they allow you to build more of a community in game by adding in features that enhance the players experiance? Or is it the players fault becuase they dont "Have a great imagination"? So your saying there is no responsibilty to the developer to allow you to build up your community in game?
Now look at both our post and see whose theories really have flaws in it?
Theres my theory, which is that I want a game where the developers add in community building tools, and allow you to help shape the world, in your own way.
Then there is your theory, where we have players that simply move around a game world, with no mechanics of their own to make the world unique for themselves.
This is an obvious dispute of someone who likes linear games like yourself, and a person like me who likes games to allow me to have some sort of freedom with what I do and create.
-Jive
Don't think I said you could not make friends. No need to get defensive. YOU said Game's should allow you to make a community. I said they do, and go so far as to provide websites and chat channels you can ask for communities groups and friends. Calm down turbo.
I did not attack you. I pointed out solutions to your stated problem.
As for what an MMO or a forum are, that becomes subjective. An MMO to some is an outlet for role play. For some it is an outlet to hack and slash through things and let off some steam. So on blah blah. A forum, could be a place for as I already said, a "Community" building website. Could be a place to gather and plan events, or it could be somewhere to whine about what a game or dev needs to do for you because you are too lazy to utilize current utilities to do do things for yourself with what is already there and fully capable.. so on blah blah.
I have never stated that the "Things" do not come in handy, nor that they do not facilitate the community I merely said they are NOT the community, nor do they MAKE the community, nor ARE they the community. The "Community" is found inside the players, comes from the players, and is built because of and within the players through THEIR efforts. No amount of dev action, planning, or facilitating will make a community happen. WE the players have to do that, almost entirely.
NOR did I say the dev SHOULD stop at any of the things you mentioned. I said they are not NEEDED to make a COMMUNITY. You are placing a LOT of words in my mouth and getting defensive, so I am not even going to continue to "defend" those positions. They are not mine, I have not stated them to be. That is all you buddy. I have not attacked you. Take a breath.
It is a devs "Responsibility" to make a game of THEIR design. Some are pure hack and slash. Some are strategy and planning. Some are social hubs. It is not a Devs responsibility to make your life happy. They make something, then SOME listen to the players and make modifications. NONE of that is making a community. That is the COMMUNITIES job, should they CHOOSE to. For those that do not choose to, they do not have to. Up to us WHAT we play, and how we play it within their game structuring.
You completely misrepresented my "Theory" place many words in my mouth, have decided that because I responded about a COMMUNITY that I like "linear games" etc. and are actually starting to be a bit of an ass. I am going to disengage myself from the argument because you are completely wrong in all of these aspects. However, back to your original topic. You wonder why there are no more communities. It is not the lack of communities. You are just too much of an ass for people to want you in theirs.
Or at least that is how you present yourself in this thread thus far.
I can see yet another "Solution" tho, and actually (For what it is worth) I withdraw my "Open hand of kindness" to be your friend in a game. If we run into one another and hi it off, great. Nor am I gonna tell you to piss off. I won't turn you awaythough. I am not an ass that way. There are enough of those around already, obviously.
I see what your saying, yes you can use your imagination, and make events and friends yourself, use your own example in a practical way, how many times can you honestly go run a beauty pagent in the center of town before it becomes tedious and boring.
Now what if you could make a hair salon, or maybe a building for the pagents, then you would have something to call your own, you have upkeep on it, and you have people coming to the building to watch your events. Then someone else plants a building right next to yours and start his own beauty show.
Let me expand...
Games like WoW, or Tabula Rasa are limited in the sense of what You can add to the world. Sure anyone can go in the streets and talk and make an event happen. Ive done it, we all have. But who can say, I created a guild hall in the middle of nowhere, then built some houses, then a few shops, and now its a city.
Im talking about making a real world here, the game letting you actually be part of a living world. To what you said earlier, the game is located in a hospital or a pub, because its a familiar place, its somewhere you know where to go, its somewhere you are garenteed interaction with other players. Why should I have to work for my game to be social. Why should have to run out and build a city, or start a beauty show.
Why cant the game let me be social from the star by providing areas for me to be social, and then letting me expand on it. Thats what a community based game is, its a game that gives you a community and lets you make the rest. The Social hubs are their for player interaction, and for you to grow a community, then its up to you to make the rest of the world.
-Jive
I can run several beauty pageants. Can hold many contests. It is not difficult to have an on going event of "Earths Greatest..." and change it from the greatest X to Y to Z. That is not however the point. The POINT is that if you honestly want to be social, to build a community, to establish bonds with people whether short term, or as long as you wish. The outlet is there by simply logging in. Hell, you do not even have to log in. You can go to the Forums, which strangely enough are also commonly referred to as a "COMMUNITY Website" and take a few minor steps to set things in motion toward propelling yourself to the center of a community. It is not in the LEAST bit difficult.
OORRR, you can choose to hold a one man pity party and come up with every reason you c an possibly concoct as to why you do not have friends, or can not make friends, and how tht is everyones fault but your own. I have given examples, and plausible antidotes to the situation INCLUDING offering myself. You can CHOOSE to accept the solution (s).
You said you wanted a game that has a community. Again I say, the community is not in a game mechanic, it is in the core of the PLAYER. If you want a town building Simulation, first off you can pick up a copy of SIM City at your local game retailer (That is a bit of humor) and then, there are several games which offer game mechanics for building player towns. As you mentioned, SWG. There used to be an abundance of player built towns. I wil not get off on an Anti SWG tangent tho. There are enough of those already. Then of course Ultima Online. One of "The originals" in all of MMO-dome. Horizons/Istaria. Even EQ2 and LORTO for more wll knon games have player housing, and Neighborhoods. Several people from several of these games use their houses as "shops" and you can go to them for a doctor, or weaponsmith, etc. THAT however is not "Community" that is "Commerce." Thus my sying your argument has flaws. The fundamentals of what a "Community" is are being rather drowned out and replaced by the want of "Things" (Such as a shop. A shop does not a community make)
When did I ever say, I dont make friends in game? I think your missing the main point, what is a forum? what is a mmo? its all a community building tool, somewhere along the line there has to be a "Thing" as you so simply put it, that builds the community.
Why should the developer stop at a forum or just the average game mechanics? Why cant they allow you to build more of a community in game by adding in features that enhance the players experiance? Or is it the players fault becuase they dont "Have a great imagination"? So your saying there is no responsibilty to the developer to allow you to build up your community in game?
Now look at both our post and see whose theories really have flaws in it?
Theres my theory, which is that I want a game where the developers add in community building tools, and allow you to help shape the world, in your own way.
Then there is your theory, where we have players that simply move around a game world, with no mechanics of their own to make the world unique for themselves.
This is an obvious dispute of someone who likes linear games like yourself, and a person like me who likes games to allow me to have some sort of freedom with what I do and create.
-Jive
Don't think I said you could not make friends. No need to get defensive. YOU said Game's should allow you to make a community. I said they do, and go so far as to provide websites and chat channels you can ask for communities groups and friends. Calm down turbo.
I did not attack you. I pointed out solutions to your stated problem.
As for what an MMO or a forum are, that becomes subjective. An MMO to some is an outlet for role play. For some it is an outlet to hack and slash through things and let off some steam. So on blah blah. A forum, could be a place for as I already said, a "Community" building website. Could be a place to gather and plan events, or it could be somewhere to whine about what a game or dev needs to do for you because you are too lazy to utilize current utilities to do do things for yourself with what is already there and fully capable.. so on blah blah.
I have never stated that the "Things" do not come in handy, nor that they do not facilitate the community I merely said they are NOT the community, nor do they MAKE the community, nor ARE they the community. The "Community" is found inside the players, comes from the players, and is built because of and within the players through THEIR efforts. No amount of dev action, planning, or facilitating will make a community happen. WE the players have to do that, almost entirely.
NOR did I say the dev SHOULD stop at any of the things you mentioned. I said they are not NEEDED to make a COMMUNITY. You are placing a LOT of words in my mouth and getting defensive, so I am not even going to continue to "defend" those positions. They are not mine, I have not stated them to be. That is all you buddy. I have not attacked you. Take a breath.
It is a devs "Responsibility" to make a game of THEIR design. Some are pure hack and slash. Some are strategy and planning. Some are social hubs. It is not a Devs responsibility to make your life happy. They make something, then SOME listen to the players and make modifications. NONE of that is making a community. That is the COMMUNITIES job, should they CHOOSE to. For those that do not choose to, they do not have to. Up to us WHAT we play, and how we play it within their game structuring.
You completely misrepresented my "Theory" place many words in my mouth, have decided that because I responded about a COMMUNITY that I like "linear games" etc. and are actually starting to be a bit of an ass. I am going to disengage myself from the argument because you are completely wrong in all of these aspects. However, back to your original topic. You wonder why there are no more communities. It is not the lack of communities. You are just too much of an ass for people to want you in theirs.
Or at least that is how you present yourself in this thread thus far.
I can see yet another "Solution" tho, and actually (For what it is worth) I withdraw my "Open hand of kindness" to be your friend in a game. If we run into one another and hi it off, great. Nor am I gonna tell you to piss off. I won't turn you awaythough. I am not an ass that way. There are enough of those around already, obviously.
Every chat channel, every emote, everything that lets you the player define your persona in game, is a community building tool.
MUD's worked in a way that you just had text, and the rest was up to you. That was fine becuase thats all they were capable of back when Muds first came out.
With games today there is endless possiblities, for people to be able to Dance in game, play music, do art, write a book, start a shop do anything. Developers leave all of these tools out, and focus on just combat, and then afterwards, they add in some social things, like emotes, and a extra chat channel, and if we are lucky dancing.
I want a game where the developers allow you and the community to engage in tons of different acitvites, In a mmo, I dont want it to be a MuD where I simple say im dancing and everyone imagines it, I want people to see me do it.
Thats the whole point of this thread,
-Jive
Saga of Ryzom and SWG were both what you described.
SoR is dead. It was too much of a sandbox for most people.
SWG is dead. To anybody who was actually around pre-CU, the forums were constantly filled with complaints from players about how shitty the game was and how much it needed a major revamp. The game was already dying before "it" happened. Yes, CU and NGE are so horrible that it's honestly beyond comprehension. Just go play it and see how it looks when you fire a blaster. I still can't believe they made combat in SWG worse. That's like making diarrhea less appetizing. Amazing.
It wouldn't have mattered if NGE had been awesome, though. Even before any of the major changes, half of the servers were nearly ghost towns. Why?
Because talking about a sandbox is great. Actually playing one which does a half-assed job with the combat is often not that great.
You still have a sandbox game where people build _almost everything in the world_ and the entire game is crafting, exploration, and politics. It's very polished and does what it sets out to do quite nicely. You probably haven't heard of it, and unless you're part of a very tiny minority, you probably couldn't stand it for more than ten minutes.
I realize the point Jive. Devs DO crete several game tools, and even games based around communites and their interactions. Horizons was a fine example, of how players had to build player owned cities, and unlock new content of the game. Only through crafters in the game, gathering stone, wood, smelting ore and crafting things such as bridges would completely new lands be discovered, with new races, and new content. The content and games ARE out there. you ignore that part, as do many players. There was very little "Instant grattification" in that game, so players started leaving. Building a community is not popular. AGAIN an example of how it is not the devs, it is the players.
No need to tell me about MUDS. Owned/Ran one for many years. I am not uneducated about any of what I am talking about. I have to be working here shortly, so won't be so much poting. Good luck in your crusade. your premise for it is flawed, and I have tried to have a discussion with you about aspects, but you close your ears and put words in my mouth rather than accept anything but the opinion you WANT to have. I still wish you luck though. This is not conducive to your building any community however.
ROFL too true. Yes, we all get suckered into the fasttrack, easy quests, fast leveling, miniscule socializing. After two weeks we realize how empty these current games are; and we leave.
Even if we did stand in the middle of the road trying to make friends, like-minded gamers have already quit the game.
So, yes, we need a game like the OP states. One that will attract gamers like us, who currently aren't playing anything.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
It's 100% developers fault for this kind of stupidity and laziness. Players didn't say "hey give us unrealistic stupid looking icons over questgivers heads". Players may have complained about constantly having to recheck the same NPCs for new quests, and that I agree with. Once you have spoken to a certain NPC, you should be notified by mail system if that NPC has new quests to offer you based on your achieving the minimum level/skill/faction required. It makes sense that a NPC you already met would contact you of new tasks they want performed, but it still should be a requirement to initially engage a new NPC to start the cycle. There is no need for stupid immersion breaking icons or glows.
Ventrilo and other forms of talk systems are also breaking down the communities of MMOGs. Everyone is becoming more and more isolated in their little groups. You see less and less keyboard communication which was often overheard and could be responded to even if you specifically were not being addressed.
I wouldn't mind seeing a game that isn't based entirely on combat again. It does seem that games are offering less and less choices these days and have you going down a set path. There should be other things to do in the game besides just combat and I'm someone who has loved combat and quests a lot over the years. I also agree that the questing/instancing is taking away from the meeting other people. Sure you could still meet people if you made the effort, but why make the effort if you don't have to do so? It's easier just to go do the quest like everyone else. It's just like reading the quest text itself. It's there for me to read, but most of the time I just click the text and don't bother to read. Most of the time I can just follow the minimap with x marks the spot. There is also a summary of what is going on in your journal. Please get rid of the x marks the spot in games and have concequences for not reading what the NPC says and choosing the wrong choice.
Most are, yeah. That is not EXACTLY the devs fault. The players have to care about someone outside of themselves before they will engage meaningfully outside of themselves. 10 years ago, player were on average adults, mostly mature adults, and contained a large quantity of Role Players. Not the case anymore. Simple mathematical equations provide the answers as to why, but such players, and "Community" driven players have become a minority. We still exist tho! And as I mentioned a few posts back, if anyone wants a bit of a smll "Community" I will be found in WAR when it launches.
I disagree with you. Today''s game players are average, mostly mature adults, and contain perhaps a smaller quantity of role-players.
Its the games that have changed in that they no longer provide community building tools and opportunities but rather force players to run around grinding out hundreds of quests mostly solo, with few rewards for bothering to set up a group anymore.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No, shut up, people like you are the ones holding back the genre.
I agree with what you're saying, and I think the key is an interdependant economy. That's what gave SWG its strong community feel. Having players seek out each other for mutual benefit and bringing together many different types of players greatly facilitates community development. The tank-dps-healer trinity isn't the same thing because it forces players to cooperate in a static role and be exclusive in choosing people who can do the job. An open economy allows players to maintain their identities and makes them less affected by the failures of others.
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.