Originally posted by ArcAngel3 As I stated earlier, this is a criminal matter. This isn't about a lawsuit, it's about law enforcement to protect consumer rights. The only people that benefit from this are consumers. Keep dreaming, if this was actually to work (which it won't) it still wouldn't change, u are clueless about business. Also, it isn't heresay when the game designer discloses that his former company's marketting of the game was not an honest reflection of the game's content. You just defined hear say, congradulations! His opinion is that, an opinion, nothing factual, is he a coder , designer, or what? Sorry to be picky here, but if you can't keep that fact streight discussing it here, to me that says "former employee" and nothing sticks so well in court like a formal discruntled employee. I take back my previous comment about a lawyer, for a lawyer would know these things. Further, the jedi issue is one of many. Other issues have similar former employee disclosures and other evidence supporting a fraud allegation. Former employees accuse fraud all the time, hate to break it too you , also most people looking for a hand out do the same exact thing. Sue in hopes of getting a payout, nothing here is factual except again a discruntled employee. Now if he actually had a physical dated copy of code that might be something, but I doubt it and SOE being dumbasses and screwing up a perfectly good game can't be sued for it. It is their game to screw up any way they want to. You have one choice, to play or not to play. If you didn't feel burned by these people, that's fine. This post is for those that did feel this way, and who want to do something about it. LOL "These people" , the only people here that feel burned are those that can't find an equivelent swg fix. The only fact here is SWG screwed up the game by changing it and trying to go another rout that made it worse. OPS! Bad choices there, but what are we going to do about it? That's correct we don't play it or we go back and do. That sir , is the only option you have. If it can be proven that you played at a certain point for months on end and only to quit after the "changes" you have nothing to stand on other then their lawyers can say "So as you can see, the prosecutions case is invalid, for their main witness enjoyed months of entertainment till the time our client SOE decided to change the concepts of the game. This might have been a bad move for our client to make, but in this case there is no relivance to the issue. By his own record of in game payment and activity , it can be seen that his action clearly indicate and understanding of game concepts. The appearent heart sob story from an X-employee for who'm (as we have proven) was let go for bad performance and breaking internal company policies is on a grudge match to get his free lunch pass for the rest of his life." Also, this situation in no way resembles the McDonald's incident, in that there was no criminal charge of fraud in that case. Not that I made the McDonald's comment here, but that is where it finally came to light how bloodsucking laywers really are and there are so many, they look for things like this to make their own "Payday". Thank god the courts are finally getting wise too such things.
I should add on a personal note here, the game was a great game in it's day for sure, not perfect thou there where a ton of issues that needed to be fixed and never was. Do I feel screwed? No, because as with any MMO it could be cancelled, changed, whatever, it is a virtual world. I do feel betrayed because I was a loyal subscriber and fan, however I wasn't screwed out of anything I enjoyed my time there while the game was in it's original concepts.
Luckly I am (as others here) able to divide my reality from my fanatasy. Star Wars is as real as me being a millionair, however it was a fun experiance in a game that represented a fictional universe. Am I dissapointed in the outcome, hell ya who isn't? Still it was their choice, like it or not and I will definitly not be on a side of "lets burn them at the stake" when there is nothing wrong to begin with. They changed the game, get over it move on, new games on the horizon. The old SWG is long gone and will never come back. I accepted it and so have many, we might relish the past, but that is in no way equal to trying to sue to get it back. I say, you need to re-define your own definition of reality as it seems sir, you have lost it.
After some changes I actually enjoyed it for awhile, but sadly now? No, it has been turned into a forced grinding fest that other MMO's are doing, so I left for good. Sure, back in the day, it was a blast. Sadly even if today SOE announced the return of the original concepts, we would all go back, see it , love it for about a week then start complaining yet again about all the things "still broken". SWG was great because it was the first MMO that really had it all, collecting, fighting, farming , questing and even another whole seperate element added later being space combat. There is no equal out there to this date and in the end, this is the whole issue. So many MMO's content is lacking vs such that was once SWG. The live in game housing was top notch yet not one dev company out there today will do that concept , why? Who knows, technical issues, design choices it really is again not up to us. You want to make it up to you, do what you have heard allready a million times, make your own MMO.
You seem focused on SOE's right to make changes to the game over time. I don't dispute that. My focus is on the nature of information shared with consumers about the game. Frankly, that information needs to be honest.
It would be fine, for example, to tell customers "in an upcoming chapter (patch etc.), a pathway to unlock jedi knights will be added to the game." No dishonesty here. No paying for time to unlock something that didn't exist. Instead, it seems people were encouraged to try to find something that hadn't yet been coded.
It would also be fine to tell people, "the rebel theme park will be completed in an upcoming patch. For those of you that can't find the last contact in a particular quest, please enjoy other features of the game, and look forward to the quest's completion." As I've quoted, this allegedly isn't what happened. SOE messaging had people paying for time searching for a non-existant contact, literally for months. That's months of subscription fees paid for something that didn't exist on the basis of misleading information.
NGE change. Good idea? I don't think so, but that's not my focus. My focus is that in two dev chats in Sept 05 and Oct 05 customers were promised profession revamps to squad leaders and rangers. They were also told to expect exciting new features for creature handler in the upcoming expansion. AT THE SAME TIME they were being told all of these things about plans for the game, the NGE WAS IN DEVELOPMENT. The NGE would remove rangers, squad leaders and creature handlers from the game. Honest marketting? Evidently not, and that's the focus.
Can SOE change or even break their game if they want to? Sure, not that it's advisable. Can they tell people things about the current game, or about future plans that they know are not true and take people's subscription money under false pretenses? Absolutely not.
Again this isn't for a payout, it's to promote the ethical treatment of consumers in the MMO game industry. Do you really think companies should be able to knowlingly mislead customers about the service they are paying for?
The whole 'oh no SOE lied that people couldn't immediately achieve Jedi argument is pretty sad'. The original random system was excellent until they caved into the masses and said yes if you grind out every profession you will unlock.
The original system was that when a character was made there was 4 unknown professions that you had to Master in order to 'unlock' your Jedi, shortly after this system went into place the very first Holocrons showed up and were originally very rare and they also showed a profession that you needed to Master in order to unlock.
The Jedi 'grind' started when SOE changed the system yet again because so many people were simply using all resources to grind out their Jedi. This in effect made the Holocrons useless and they continued to be useless until the CU I believe when Jedis could use them to restore some 'Force' and I believe there was a cooldown as well. The jedi grind started when everyone got a holocron for Christmas. Prior to that, they were very expensive and only a small portion of the population was bothering with them. With all my accounts, I ended up with 4 of them and decided to go for jedi with a toon I specifically made for that purpose.
One of the absolute first Jedis was only a few weeks after release and was on the Scylla server, SOE and a gaming magazine company contacted him and tried to get him to basically announce his Jedi status to everyone by doing an article. He refused, remember this is back in the 'Lightsaber TEF' days and he wasn't strong enough to protect himself against anyone who would come along and gank him just because they could. The first jedi was on Intrepid and did not unlock for 5-6 months after launch. I was on Dant when this happened and got a system message making the announcement which also appeared on every server. I suggest you go back and get your facts sorted out before you make a statement like this.
Let this game die please, so another developer will make and improve on a once very good game.
The whole 'oh no SOE lied that people couldn't immediately achieve Jedi argument is pretty sad'. The original random system was excellent until they caved into the masses and said yes if you grind out every profession you will unlock.
The original system was that when a character was made there was 4 unknown professions that you had to Master in order to 'unlock' your Jedi, shortly after this system went into place the very first Holocrons showed up and were originally very rare and they also showed a profession that you needed to Master in order to unlock.
The Jedi 'grind' started when SOE changed the system yet again because so many people were simply using all resources to grind out their Jedi. This in effect made the Holocrons useless and they continued to be useless until the CU I believe when Jedis could use them to restore some 'Force' and I believe there was a cooldown as well. The jedi grind started when everyone got a holocron for Christmas. Prior to that, they were very expensive and only a small portion of the population was bothering with them. With all my accounts, I ended up with 4 of them and decided to go for jedi with a toon I specifically made for that purpose.
One of the absolute first Jedis was only a few weeks after release and was on the Scylla server, SOE and a gaming magazine company contacted him and tried to get him to basically announce his Jedi status to everyone by doing an article. He refused, remember this is back in the 'Lightsaber TEF' days and he wasn't strong enough to protect himself against anyone who would come along and gank him just because they could. The first jedi was on Intrepid and did not unlock for 5-6 months after launch. I was on Dant when this happened and got a system message making the announcement which also appeared on every server. I suggest you go back and get your facts sorted out before you make a statement like this.
Let this game die please, so another developer will make and improve on a once very good game.
Originally posted by chaintm Originally posted by ArcAngel3 As I stated earlier, this is a criminal matter. This isn't about a lawsuit, it's about law enforcement to protect consumer rights. The only people that benefit from this are consumers. Keep dreaming, if this was actually to work (which it won't) it still wouldn't change, u are clueless about business. Also, it isn't heresay when the game designer discloses that his former company's marketting of the game was not an honest reflection of the game's content. You just defined hear say, congradulations! His opinion is that, an opinion, nothing factual, is he a coder , designer, or what? Sorry to be picky here, but if you can't keep that fact streight discussing it here, to me that says "former employee" and nothing sticks so well in court like a formal discruntled employee. I take back my previous comment about a lawyer, for a lawyer would know these things. Further, the jedi issue is one of many. Other issues have similar former employee disclosures and other evidence supporting a fraud allegation. Former employees accuse fraud all the time, hate to break it too you , also most people looking for a hand out do the same exact thing. Sue in hopes of getting a payout, nothing here is factual except again a discruntled employee. Now if he actually had a physical dated copy of code that might be something, but I doubt it and SOE being dumbasses and screwing up a perfectly good game can't be sued for it. It is their game to screw up any way they want to. You have one choice, to play or not to play. If you didn't feel burned by these people, that's fine. This post is for those that did feel this way, and who want to do something about it. LOL "These people" , the only people here that feel burned are those that can't find an equivelent swg fix. The only fact here is SWG screwed up the game by changing it and trying to go another rout that made it worse. OPS! Bad choices there, but what are we going to do about it? That's correct we don't play it or we go back and do. That sir , is the only option you have. If it can be proven that you played at a certain point for months on end and only to quit after the "changes" you have nothing to stand on other then their lawyers can say "So as you can see, the prosecutions case is invalid, for their main witness enjoyed months of entertainment till the time our client SOE decided to change the concepts of the game. This might have been a bad move for our client to make, but in this case there is no relivance to the issue. By his own record of in game payment and activity , it can be seen that his action clearly indicate and understanding of game concepts. The appearent heart sob story from an X-employee for who'm (as we have proven) was let go for bad performance and breaking internal company policies is on a grudge match to get his free lunch pass for the rest of his life." Also, this situation in no way resembles the McDonald's incident, in that there was no criminal charge of fraud in that case. Not that I made the McDonald's comment here, but that is where it finally came to light how bloodsucking laywers really are and there are so many, they look for things like this to make their own "Payday". Thank god the courts are finally getting wise too such things.
I should add on a personal note here, the game was a great game in it's day for sure, not perfect thou there where a ton of issues that needed to be fixed and never was. Do I feel screwed? No, because as with any MMO it could be cancelled, changed, whatever, it is a virtual world. I do feel betrayed because I was a loyal subscriber and fan, however I wasn't screwed out of anything I enjoyed my time there while the game was in it's original concepts. Luckly I am (as others here) able to divide my reality from my fanatasy. Star Wars is as real as me being a millionair, however it was a fun experiance in a game that represented a fictional universe. Am I dissapointed in the outcome, hell ya who isn't? Still it was their choice, like it or not and I will definitly not be on a side of "lets burn them at the stake" when there is nothing wrong to begin with. They changed the game, get over it move on, new games on the horizon. The old SWG is long gone and will never come back. I accepted it and so have many, we might relish the past, but that is in no way equal to trying to sue to get it back. I say, you need to re-define your own definition of reality as it seems sir, you have lost it. After some changes I actually enjoyed it for awhile, but sadly now? No, it has been turned into a forced grinding fest that other MMO's are doing, so I left for good. Sure, back in the day, it was a blast. Sadly even if today SOE announced the return of the original concepts, we would all go back, see it , love it for about a week then start complaining yet again about all the things "still broken". SWG was great because it was the first MMO that really had it all, collecting, fighting, farming , questing and even another whole seperate element added later being space combat. There is no equal out there to this date and in the end, this is the whole issue. So many MMO's content is lacking vs such that was once SWG. The live in game housing was top notch yet not one dev company out there today will do that concept , why? Who knows, technical issues, design choices it really is again not up to us. You want to make it up to you, do what you have heard allready a million times, make your own MMO.
When you are proclaimed divinity by the universe, this post will have meaning. For now, nope.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Originally posted by plong Originally posted by Riho06 Sony stole my game from me when the NGE came out.
The whole 'oh no SOE lied that people couldn't immediately achieve Jedi argument is pretty sad'. The original random system was excellent until they caved into the masses and said yes if you grind out every profession you will unlock.
The original system was that when a character was made there was 4 unknown professions that you had to Master in order to 'unlock' your Jedi, shortly after this system went into place the very first Holocrons showed up and were originally very rare and they also showed a profession that you needed to Master in order to unlock.
The Jedi 'grind' started when SOE changed the system yet again because so many people were simply using all resources to grind out their Jedi. This in effect made the Holocrons useless and they continued to be useless until the CU I believe when Jedis could use them to restore some 'Force' and I believe there was a cooldown as well. The jedi grind started when everyone got a holocron for Christmas. Prior to that, they were very expensive and only a small portion of the population was bothering with them. With all my accounts, I ended up with 4 of them and decided to go for jedi with a toon I specifically made for that purpose.
One of the absolute first Jedis was only a few weeks after release and was on the Scylla server, SOE and a gaming magazine company contacted him and tried to get him to basically announce his Jedi status to everyone by doing an article. He refused, remember this is back in the 'Lightsaber TEF' days and he wasn't strong enough to protect himself against anyone who would come along and gank him just because they could. The first jedi was on Intrepid and did not unlock for 5-6 months after launch. I was on Dant when this happened and got a system message making the announcement which also appeared on every server. I suggest you go back and get your facts sorted out before you make a statement like this.
Let this game die please, so another developer will make and improve on a once very good game.
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
First Jedi was akinom/monika, a dude from Germany. I was there online when the announcement was made by the Server. When it happened the day after a pacth, everyone cried scandal.
The back of the original game box said something to the effect that: "Perhaps even unlock the secrets of the jedi" or something like that. It was printed on the original box when the game started even though according to the angry programmer, the jedi system didn't go in to effect until two weeks after the game began.
Im holding the box (bought in dec 2003) in my hand. It says (on the back) among other things:
" * Follow your own path with a skill-based advancement system, wich accommodates your play style, whether you become a bounty hunter or a dancer or a merchant or even a Jedi."
M M O S S I N C E |1998| P L A Y I N G F A L L E N E A R T H T I M E I N V E S T E D |uo|swg|wow|fe| B E T A T E S T E R |rz|tr|hgl|potbs|potc|gw|hz|wish|fe|wow|df|war|allods|cog|lu| w w w . c l o w n g u i l d . o r g
The back of the original game box said something to the effect that: "Perhaps even unlock the secrets of the jedi" or something like that. It was printed on the original box when the game started even though according to the angry programmer, the jedi system didn't go in to effect until two weeks after the game began.
Im holding the box (bought in dec 2003) in my hand. It says (on the back) among other things:
" * Follow your own path with a skill-based advancement system, wich accommodates your play style, whether you become a bounty hunter or a dancer or a merchant or even a Jedi."
Thanks for the post above with the quote from SOE and LA marketting.
O.k. so compare the advertisement on the box, to this story:
"Jedi - We all know that jedi was NEVER possible at launch. Yet SOE made post after post dangling that carrot and offering encouragement. They told us to get married, explore every world, build a home, etc. It made some think that jedi was some random amazing quest to be discovered. Soon though we learned the truth when SOE patched in several .tre files with obvious jedi implications 5 months after launch. Then the day after a patch several unlocked all at once" (Admriker 4444).
in light of this admission from Dan Rubenfield:
"Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched" (Rubenfield, 2008).
If the account from Admriker is accurate, people were paying and playing for 5 months searching for something advertised in the game that simply did not exist.
For those that didn't read the Rubenfield quote carefully, it does not say that he created the jedi system 2 weeks after launch. It says he created it IN 2 weeks AFTER launch. People aren't complaining about waiting 2 weeks for an advertised feature. We're talking about a longer period of time, during which people were paying out subscription fees.
The whole 'oh no SOE lied that people couldn't immediately achieve Jedi argument is pretty sad'. The original random system was excellent until they caved into the masses and said yes if you grind out every profession you will unlock.
The original system was that when a character was made there was 4 unknown professions that you had to Master in order to 'unlock' your Jedi, shortly after this system went into place the very first Holocrons showed up and were originally very rare and they also showed a profession that you needed to Master in order to unlock.
The Jedi 'grind' started when SOE changed the system yet again because so many people were simply using all resources to grind out their Jedi. This in effect made the Holocrons useless and they continued to be useless until the CU I believe when Jedis could use them to restore some 'Force' and I believe there was a cooldown as well.
The jedi grind started when everyone got a holocron for Christmas. Prior to that, they were very expensive and only a small portion of the population was bothering with them. With all my accounts, I ended up with 4 of them and decided to go for jedi with a toon I specifically made for that purpose.
One of the absolute first Jedis was only a few weeks after release and was on the Scylla server, SOE and a gaming magazine company contacted him and tried to get him to basically announce his Jedi status to everyone by doing an article. He refused, remember this is back in the 'Lightsaber TEF' days and he wasn't strong enough to protect himself against anyone who would come along and gank him just because they could.
The first jedi was on Intrepid and did not unlock for 5-6 months after launch. I was on Dant when this happened and got a system message making the announcement which also appeared on every server. I suggest you go back and get your facts sorted out before you make a statement like this.
Let this game die please, so another developer will make and improve on a once very good game.
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
First Jedi was akinom/monika, a dude from Germany. I was there online when the announcement was made by the Server. When it happened the day after a pacth, everyone cried scandal.
And the cries of scandal certainly appear warranted in light of recent disclosures.
First, welcome to the world of software. Even though players were led to believe that they could become jedi from the start, it doesn't matter in the timing, since players were allowed to become Jedi. How long it took or what steps you had to take are immaterial. SOE only had to live up to the promise that players could become jedi eventually.
Secondly, I'm surprised anyone finds this remotely surprising as they did it again with EQ, with the whole froglok scandal, that were supposedly unlockable as a race, but wasn't implemented until a couple of patches down the road.
But regardless of promises made or anything else, companies aren't legally required to have their 'promised' features ready by launch, only to have them in a timely fashion, which in the game world is quite a while, since it is difficult to quantify what is lost.
The best way to change this policy is to quit buying their crap.
Sorry guys, but you don't have a leg to stand on. First, welcome to the world of software. Even though players were led to believe that they could become jedi from the start, it doesn't matter in the timing, since players were allowed to become Jedi. How long it took or what steps you had to take are immaterial. SOE only had to live up to the promise that players could become jedi eventually. Secondly, I'm surprised anyone finds this remotely surprising as they did it again with EQ, with the whole froglok scandal, that were supposedly unlockable as a race, but wasn't implemented until a couple of patches down the road. But regardless of promises made or anything else, companies aren't legally required to have their 'promised' features ready by launch, only to have them in a timely fashion, which in the game world is quite a while, since it is difficult to quantify what is lost. The best way to change this policy is to quit buying their crap.
Once again, the issue isn't that development takes time, or that games can change, break or evolve. It is that companies are obligated to communicate honestly with consumers about the service they are paying for.
SOE and LA could have said "jedi are coming soon" and everything would be fine. What they cannot say is, "jedi are now available you just need to keep searching for clues"--clues that did not exist. It's the dishonest messaging that is at issue. Why? Because people were paying for something that wasn't there.
I agree that there is a history to this sort of behaviour, but that doesn't mean it's legal. In fact knowlingly misrepresenting goods or services and taking money on that basis is against the law. I'm trying to promote a change to the way "business" is done in MMO's, particularly by SOE. If I become aware of similar practices by other companies, you can bet I'll highlight those as well.
Having said all of that, I agree that consumers can always send a message by refusing to deal with disreputable companies.
But that's the problem. It's not illegal for software companies to say something is implemented when it's really not, as long as they fix it in a timely manner and as long as the code is present in the software. It's merely unethical. Jedi were coded into the game, they just weren't playable as a character until they allowed them to be unlocked.
But again, this should come as no surprise to people. This is software, the only thing people will buy broken from the start in the hopes that it gets fixed later on.
The whole 'oh no SOE lied that people couldn't immediately achieve Jedi argument is pretty sad'. The original random system was excellent until they caved into the masses and said yes if you grind out every profession you will unlock.
The original system was that when a character was made there was 4 unknown professions that you had to Master in order to 'unlock' your Jedi, shortly after this system went into place the very first Holocrons showed up and were originally very rare and they also showed a profession that you needed to Master in order to unlock.
The Jedi 'grind' started when SOE changed the system yet again because so many people were simply using all resources to grind out their Jedi. This in effect made the Holocrons useless and they continued to be useless until the CU I believe when Jedis could use them to restore some 'Force' and I believe there was a cooldown as well.
The jedi grind started when everyone got a holocron for Christmas. Prior to that, they were very expensive and only a small portion of the population was bothering with them. With all my accounts, I ended up with 4 of them and decided to go for jedi with a toon I specifically made for that purpose.
One of the absolute first Jedis was only a few weeks after release and was on the Scylla server, SOE and a gaming magazine company contacted him and tried to get him to basically announce his Jedi status to everyone by doing an article. He refused, remember this is back in the 'Lightsaber TEF' days and he wasn't strong enough to protect himself against anyone who would come along and gank him just because they could.
The first jedi was on Intrepid and did not unlock for 5-6 months after launch. I was on Dant when this happened and got a system message making the announcement which also appeared on every server. I suggest you go back and get your facts sorted out before you make a statement like this.
Let this game die please, so another developer will make and improve on a once very good game.
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
First Jedi was akinom/monika, a dude from Germany. I was there online when the announcement was made by the Server. When it happened the day after a pacth, everyone cried scandal.
"As of Wednesday, November 5th, a handful of players are very close to unlocking their Force Sensitive character slots. Those players will immediately be allowed to create a Force Sensitive character who gains access to Jedi skill trees and Force powers, and the ability to build lightsabers. We've also added a Dark Jedi skill tree for players who want to explore the dark side. Moving forward, we'll continue to work on other, Jedi-specific content, especially as the number of Jedi in-game increases." -- Haden Blackman, 11/2003
"The slot opening message came at the first mob she killed today on dathomir, a female picket longhorn. " -- Monika T'Sarn
The whole 'oh no SOE lied that people couldn't immediately achieve Jedi argument is pretty sad'. The original random system was excellent until they caved into the masses and said yes if you grind out every profession you will unlock.
The original system was that when a character was made there was 4 unknown professions that you had to Master in order to 'unlock' your Jedi, shortly after this system went into place the very first Holocrons showed up and were originally very rare and they also showed a profession that you needed to Master in order to unlock.
The Jedi 'grind' started when SOE changed the system yet again because so many people were simply using all resources to grind out their Jedi. This in effect made the Holocrons useless and they continued to be useless until the CU I believe when Jedis could use them to restore some 'Force' and I believe there was a cooldown as well.
The jedi grind started when everyone got a holocron for Christmas. Prior to that, they were very expensive and only a small portion of the population was bothering with them. With all my accounts, I ended up with 4 of them and decided to go for jedi with a toon I specifically made for that purpose.
One of the absolute first Jedis was only a few weeks after release and was on the Scylla server, SOE and a gaming magazine company contacted him and tried to get him to basically announce his Jedi status to everyone by doing an article. He refused, remember this is back in the 'Lightsaber TEF' days and he wasn't strong enough to protect himself against anyone who would come along and gank him just because they could.
The first jedi was on Intrepid and did not unlock for 5-6 months after launch. I was on Dant when this happened and got a system message making the announcement which also appeared on every server. I suggest you go back and get your facts sorted out before you make a statement like this.
Let this game die please, so another developer will make and improve on a once very good game.
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
First Jedi was akinom/monika, a dude from Germany. I was there online when the announcement was made by the Server. When it happened the day after a pacth, everyone cried scandal.
"As of Wednesday, November 5th, a handful of players are very close to unlocking their Force Sensitive character slots. Those players will immediately be allowed to create a Force Sensitive character who gains access to Jedi skill trees and Force powers, and the ability to build lightsabers. We've also added a Dark Jedi skill tree for players who want to explore the dark side. Moving forward, we'll continue to work on other, Jedi-specific content, especially as the number of Jedi in-game increases." -- Haden Blackman, 11/2003
"The slot opening message came at the first mob she killed today on dathomir, a female picket longhorn. " -- Monika T'Sarn
The whole 'oh no SOE lied that people couldn't immediately achieve Jedi argument is pretty sad'. The original random system was excellent until they caved into the masses and said yes if you grind out every profession you will unlock.
The original system was that when a character was made there was 4 unknown professions that you had to Master in order to 'unlock' your Jedi, shortly after this system went into place the very first Holocrons showed up and were originally very rare and they also showed a profession that you needed to Master in order to unlock.
The Jedi 'grind' started when SOE changed the system yet again because so many people were simply using all resources to grind out their Jedi. This in effect made the Holocrons useless and they continued to be useless until the CU I believe when Jedis could use them to restore some 'Force' and I believe there was a cooldown as well.
The jedi grind started when everyone got a holocron for Christmas. Prior to that, they were very expensive and only a small portion of the population was bothering with them. With all my accounts, I ended up with 4 of them and decided to go for jedi with a toon I specifically made for that purpose.
One of the absolute first Jedis was only a few weeks after release and was on the Scylla server, SOE and a gaming magazine company contacted him and tried to get him to basically announce his Jedi status to everyone by doing an article. He refused, remember this is back in the 'Lightsaber TEF' days and he wasn't strong enough to protect himself against anyone who would come along and gank him just because they could.
The first jedi was on Intrepid and did not unlock for 5-6 months after launch. I was on Dant when this happened and got a system message making the announcement which also appeared on every server. I suggest you go back and get your facts sorted out before you make a statement like this.
Let this game die please, so another developer will make and improve on a once very good game.
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
First Jedi was akinom/monika, a dude from Germany. I was there online when the announcement was made by the Server. When it happened the day after a pacth, everyone cried scandal.
"As of Wednesday, November 5th, a handful of players are very close to unlocking their Force Sensitive character slots. Those players will immediately be allowed to create a Force Sensitive character who gains access to Jedi skill trees and Force powers, and the ability to build lightsabers. We've also added a Dark Jedi skill tree for players who want to explore the dark side. Moving forward, we'll continue to work on other, Jedi-specific content, especially as the number of Jedi in-game increases." -- Haden Blackman, 11/2003
"The slot opening message came at the first mob she killed today on dathomir, a female picket longhorn. " -- Monika T'Sarn
Wow, where the heck did you find this?
"You can unlock a force sensitive slot right now--all the tracking is in place, and people are checking off items." -- Raph Koster, August 2003 (Old Jedi Forums, available in Biophilia's Scrap Book)
[url]http://pc.ign.com/articles/452/452616p1.html[/url] -- The demand has really been amazing -- we're the fastest growing MMO ever -- in the Western world at least. It's really stretched our community management and customer service, but we've been buckling down and have made great progress on those fronts as well. We are also consistently hard at work with bug fixes and adding new content. We've surpassed 300K registered accounts and we're pretty happy with the progress. Raph Koster, October 2003
As more unlocks occurred, we noticed that the average of mastered professions seemed to progressively increase until the month prior to publish 9 when almost all of the unlocks required 28-32 professions. Many asked if anything had changed. They were ridiculed and told nothing had changed. Later on, after publishes 9 and 10 which removed the hologrind they admitted more hidden professions were being added, until the last month when it was 4 holo professions and 4 hiddens which was the maximum tracking possible. Nothing had changed because this feature was included in the original code, but something had changed regardless.
I'd like to see this scrapbook people have made reference to. How can I do that? Thanks for any tips
Do a googlesearch on "Biophilia's Scrap Book" and you'll get several options for both viewing versions online and downloading them. It appears that v 5.1 is only available as a download, and it's a huge download.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
I make a point of thanking Biophilia every time I run into him. When he heard the boards were being taken down - he went into every forums and captured what he could. We owe him much. As someone who collects PreCU data, trust me - the internet washes a lot of what we assume is available away.
But that's the problem. It's not illegal for software companies to say something is implemented when it's really not, as long as they fix it in a timely manner and as long as the code is present in the software. It's merely unethical. Jedi were coded into the game, they just weren't playable as a character until they allowed them to be unlocked. But again, this should come as no surprise to people. This is software, the only thing people will buy broken from the start in the hopes that it gets fixed later on.
Frankly, the criminal code does not exempt software companies from its definition of fraud. To knowingly misrepresent a service and thereby take customers money is illegal--yes even for software companies.
As for saying that the jedi code was in the game, but they weren't playable, have you read Rubenfield's blog? He says he came up with the entire jedi system (that's coding) AFTER launch in a two week period.
Admriker's observation of new code patched into the game before all the unlocks corroborates Rubenfield's disclosure.
Releasing something that's not fully functional and fixing it in a timely manner is the scenario you seem to be describing. All available evidence suggests that this is clearly not what happened with the jedi system. Many other aspects of SWG surely, but not jedi.
We always knew we could unlock a jedi slot. However the method for doing so was supposed to be random not just a methodical grind of all the professions. That was the most unimaginative way of doing it that they could possibly have conceived. They would have been better off to leave them out entirely.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
But that's the problem. It's not illegal for software companies to say something is implemented when it's really not, as long as they fix it in a timely manner and as long as the code is present in the software. It's merely unethical. Jedi were coded into the game, they just weren't playable as a character until they allowed them to be unlocked. But again, this should come as no surprise to people. This is software, the only thing people will buy broken from the start in the hopes that it gets fixed later on.
Frankly, the criminal code does not exempt software companies from its definition of fraud. To knowingly misrepresent a service and thereby take customers money is illegal--yes even for software companies.
As for saying that the jedi code was in the game, but they weren't playable, have you read Rubenfield's blog? He says he came up with the entire jedi system (that's coding) AFTER launch in a two week period.
Admriker's observation of new code patched into the game before all the unlocks corroborates Rubenfield's disclosure.
Releasing something that's not fully functional and fixing it in a timely manner is the scenario you seem to be describing. All available evidence suggests that this is clearly not what happened with the jedi system. Many other aspects of SWG surely, but not jedi.
When did they ever say that you could have a jedi on day 1? Frankly, even if the code was in the game until the third week, it wouldn't have been possible to get one before then anyway.
It's amazing how, no matter how crappy the rest of the game was, is, or will always be, people will still find the stupidest things to cry about.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
When did they ever say that you could have a jedi on day 1? Frankly, even if the code was in the game until the third week, it wouldn't have been possible to get one before then anyway. It's amazing how, no matter how crappy the rest of the game was, is, or will always be, people will still find the stupidest things to cry about.
Really? So had some form of code been in the game at launch...Jedi would not have been available? This despite the fact that previous information had jedi being random which would indicate that one would appear at any time...being random and all.
Oh, you mean the code that was put in the game 2 weeks after launch? The code that was a rush job to cover ones butt as the paying public was wondering what was happening? Hmmm, yep. When one writes the rules after the fact - it is impressive how much you can get away with.
Its amazing how, no matter how many the laws and consumer rights protections are put in place, some people will still bend over and take whatever someone will give them and yet fault others for not doing the same.
We always knew we could unlock a jedi slot. However the method for doing so was supposed to be random not just a methodical grind of all the professions. That was the most unimaginative way of doing it that they could possibly have conceived. They would have been better off to leave them out entirely.
I don't know, I think it would have been a pretty good idea had the holocrons never been added as required profession revealers, and there was a random delay between fulfilling the requirements and getting the unlock message.
Think about it. You'd have to master five unknown, random professions and if done right there would be so few Jedi no one would figure out it was the professions. This would also assure that players that unlocked the slot would be well rounded swg players who voluntarily tried out many aspects of the game. That would have handily left out the belligerent whose sole purpose was to attain "the most powerful character in the game" to go out and wtfpwn other players.
Comments
I should add on a personal note here, the game was a great game in it's day for sure, not perfect thou there where a ton of issues that needed to be fixed and never was. Do I feel screwed? No, because as with any MMO it could be cancelled, changed, whatever, it is a virtual world. I do feel betrayed because I was a loyal subscriber and fan, however I wasn't screwed out of anything I enjoyed my time there while the game was in it's original concepts.
Luckly I am (as others here) able to divide my reality from my fanatasy. Star Wars is as real as me being a millionair, however it was a fun experiance in a game that represented a fictional universe. Am I dissapointed in the outcome, hell ya who isn't? Still it was their choice, like it or not and I will definitly not be on a side of "lets burn them at the stake" when there is nothing wrong to begin with. They changed the game, get over it move on, new games on the horizon. The old SWG is long gone and will never come back. I accepted it and so have many, we might relish the past, but that is in no way equal to trying to sue to get it back. I say, you need to re-define your own definition of reality as it seems sir, you have lost it.
After some changes I actually enjoyed it for awhile, but sadly now? No, it has been turned into a forced grinding fest that other MMO's are doing, so I left for good. Sure, back in the day, it was a blast. Sadly even if today SOE announced the return of the original concepts, we would all go back, see it , love it for about a week then start complaining yet again about all the things "still broken". SWG was great because it was the first MMO that really had it all, collecting, fighting, farming , questing and even another whole seperate element added later being space combat. There is no equal out there to this date and in the end, this is the whole issue. So many MMO's content is lacking vs such that was once SWG. The live in game housing was top notch yet not one dev company out there today will do that concept , why? Who knows, technical issues, design choices it really is again not up to us. You want to make it up to you, do what you have heard allready a million times, make your own MMO.
You seem focused on SOE's right to make changes to the game over time. I don't dispute that. My focus is on the nature of information shared with consumers about the game. Frankly, that information needs to be honest.
It would be fine, for example, to tell customers "in an upcoming chapter (patch etc.), a pathway to unlock jedi knights will be added to the game." No dishonesty here. No paying for time to unlock something that didn't exist. Instead, it seems people were encouraged to try to find something that hadn't yet been coded.
It would also be fine to tell people, "the rebel theme park will be completed in an upcoming patch. For those of you that can't find the last contact in a particular quest, please enjoy other features of the game, and look forward to the quest's completion." As I've quoted, this allegedly isn't what happened. SOE messaging had people paying for time searching for a non-existant contact, literally for months. That's months of subscription fees paid for something that didn't exist on the basis of misleading information.
NGE change. Good idea? I don't think so, but that's not my focus. My focus is that in two dev chats in Sept 05 and Oct 05 customers were promised profession revamps to squad leaders and rangers. They were also told to expect exciting new features for creature handler in the upcoming expansion. AT THE SAME TIME they were being told all of these things about plans for the game, the NGE WAS IN DEVELOPMENT. The NGE would remove rangers, squad leaders and creature handlers from the game. Honest marketting? Evidently not, and that's the focus.
Can SOE change or even break their game if they want to? Sure, not that it's advisable. Can they tell people things about the current game, or about future plans that they know are not true and take people's subscription money under false pretenses? Absolutely not.
Again this isn't for a payout, it's to promote the ethical treatment of consumers in the MMO game industry. Do you really think companies should be able to knowlingly mislead customers about the service they are paying for?
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
I should add on a personal note here, the game was a great game in it's day for sure, not perfect thou there where a ton of issues that needed to be fixed and never was. Do I feel screwed? No, because as with any MMO it could be cancelled, changed, whatever, it is a virtual world. I do feel betrayed because I was a loyal subscriber and fan, however I wasn't screwed out of anything I enjoyed my time there while the game was in it's original concepts.
Luckly I am (as others here) able to divide my reality from my fanatasy. Star Wars is as real as me being a millionair, however it was a fun experiance in a game that represented a fictional universe. Am I dissapointed in the outcome, hell ya who isn't? Still it was their choice, like it or not and I will definitly not be on a side of "lets burn them at the stake" when there is nothing wrong to begin with. They changed the game, get over it move on, new games on the horizon. The old SWG is long gone and will never come back. I accepted it and so have many, we might relish the past, but that is in no way equal to trying to sue to get it back. I say, you need to re-define your own definition of reality as it seems sir, you have lost it.
After some changes I actually enjoyed it for awhile, but sadly now? No, it has been turned into a forced grinding fest that other MMO's are doing, so I left for good. Sure, back in the day, it was a blast. Sadly even if today SOE announced the return of the original concepts, we would all go back, see it , love it for about a week then start complaining yet again about all the things "still broken". SWG was great because it was the first MMO that really had it all, collecting, fighting, farming , questing and even another whole seperate element added later being space combat. There is no equal out there to this date and in the end, this is the whole issue. So many MMO's content is lacking vs such that was once SWG. The live in game housing was top notch yet not one dev company out there today will do that concept , why? Who knows, technical issues, design choices it really is again not up to us. You want to make it up to you, do what you have heard allready a million times, make your own MMO.
When you are proclaimed divinity by the universe, this post will have meaning. For now, nope.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
First Jedi was akinom/monika, a dude from Germany. I was there online when the announcement was made by the Server. When it happened the day after a pacth, everyone cried scandal.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Im holding the box (bought in dec 2003) in my hand. It says (on the back) among other things:
" * Follow your own path with a skill-based advancement system, wich accommodates your play style, whether you become a bounty hunter or a dancer or a merchant or even a Jedi."
M M O S S I N C E |1998|
P L A Y I N G F A L L E N E A R T H
T I M E I N V E S T E D |uo|swg|wow|fe|
B E T A T E S T E R |rz|tr|hgl|potbs|potc|gw|hz|wish|fe|wow|df|war|allods|cog|lu|
w w w . c l o w n g u i l d . o r g
Im holding the box (bought in dec 2003) in my hand. It says (on the back) among other things:
" * Follow your own path with a skill-based advancement system, wich accommodates your play style, whether you become a bounty hunter or a dancer or a merchant or even a Jedi."
Thanks for the post above with the quote from SOE and LA marketting.
O.k. so compare the advertisement on the box, to this story:
"Jedi - We all know that jedi was NEVER possible at launch. Yet SOE made post after post dangling that carrot and offering encouragement. They told us to get married, explore every world, build a home, etc. It made some think that jedi was some random amazing quest to be discovered. Soon though we learned the truth when SOE patched in several .tre files with obvious jedi implications 5 months after launch. Then the day after a patch several unlocked all at once" (Admriker 4444).
in light of this admission from Dan Rubenfield:
"Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched" (Rubenfield, 2008).
If the account from Admriker is accurate, people were paying and playing for 5 months searching for something advertised in the game that simply did not exist.
For those that didn't read the Rubenfield quote carefully, it does not say that he created the jedi system 2 weeks after launch. It says he created it IN 2 weeks AFTER launch. People aren't complaining about waiting 2 weeks for an advertised feature. We're talking about a longer period of time, during which people were paying out subscription fees.
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
First Jedi was akinom/monika, a dude from Germany. I was there online when the announcement was made by the Server. When it happened the day after a pacth, everyone cried scandal.
And the cries of scandal certainly appear warranted in light of recent disclosures.
LOL and MMO Soap Opera.
Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands? ~Ernest Gaines
Sorry guys, but you don't have a leg to stand on.
First, welcome to the world of software. Even though players were led to believe that they could become jedi from the start, it doesn't matter in the timing, since players were allowed to become Jedi. How long it took or what steps you had to take are immaterial. SOE only had to live up to the promise that players could become jedi eventually.
Secondly, I'm surprised anyone finds this remotely surprising as they did it again with EQ, with the whole froglok scandal, that were supposedly unlockable as a race, but wasn't implemented until a couple of patches down the road.
But regardless of promises made or anything else, companies aren't legally required to have their 'promised' features ready by launch, only to have them in a timely fashion, which in the game world is quite a while, since it is difficult to quantify what is lost.
The best way to change this policy is to quit buying their crap.
I heard that the first player to unlock (monika) was later banned for credit duping. Does anyone else recall this?
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Once again, the issue isn't that development takes time, or that games can change, break or evolve. It is that companies are obligated to communicate honestly with consumers about the service they are paying for.
SOE and LA could have said "jedi are coming soon" and everything would be fine. What they cannot say is, "jedi are now available you just need to keep searching for clues"--clues that did not exist. It's the dishonest messaging that is at issue. Why? Because people were paying for something that wasn't there.
I agree that there is a history to this sort of behaviour, but that doesn't mean it's legal. In fact knowlingly misrepresenting goods or services and taking money on that basis is against the law. I'm trying to promote a change to the way "business" is done in MMO's, particularly by SOE. If I become aware of similar practices by other companies, you can bet I'll highlight those as well.
Having said all of that, I agree that consumers can always send a message by refusing to deal with disreputable companies.
But that's the problem. It's not illegal for software companies to say something is implemented when it's really not, as long as they fix it in a timely manner and as long as the code is present in the software. It's merely unethical. Jedi were coded into the game, they just weren't playable as a character until they allowed them to be unlocked.
But again, this should come as no surprise to people. This is software, the only thing people will buy broken from the start in the hopes that it gets fixed later on.
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
First Jedi was akinom/monika, a dude from Germany. I was there online when the announcement was made by the Server. When it happened the day after a pacth, everyone cried scandal.
"As of Wednesday, November 5th, a handful of players are very close to unlocking their Force Sensitive character slots. Those players will immediately be allowed to create a Force Sensitive character who gains access to Jedi skill trees and Force powers, and the ability to build lightsabers. We've also added a Dark Jedi skill tree for players who want to explore the dark side. Moving forward, we'll continue to work on other, Jedi-specific content, especially as the number of Jedi in-game increases." -- Haden Blackman, 11/2003
"The slot opening message came at the first mob she killed today on dathomir, a female picket longhorn. " -- Monika T'Sarn
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
First Jedi was akinom/monika, a dude from Germany. I was there online when the announcement was made by the Server. When it happened the day after a pacth, everyone cried scandal.
"As of Wednesday, November 5th, a handful of players are very close to unlocking their Force Sensitive character slots. Those players will immediately be allowed to create a Force Sensitive character who gains access to Jedi skill trees and Force powers, and the ability to build lightsabers. We've also added a Dark Jedi skill tree for players who want to explore the dark side. Moving forward, we'll continue to work on other, Jedi-specific content, especially as the number of Jedi in-game increases." -- Haden Blackman, 11/2003
"The slot opening message came at the first mob she killed today on dathomir, a female picket longhorn. " -- Monika T'Sarn
Wow, where the heck did you find this?
Thanks for the clarifications on the time line.
First Jedi was akinom/monika, a dude from Germany. I was there online when the announcement was made by the Server. When it happened the day after a pacth, everyone cried scandal.
"As of Wednesday, November 5th, a handful of players are very close to unlocking their Force Sensitive character slots. Those players will immediately be allowed to create a Force Sensitive character who gains access to Jedi skill trees and Force powers, and the ability to build lightsabers. We've also added a Dark Jedi skill tree for players who want to explore the dark side. Moving forward, we'll continue to work on other, Jedi-specific content, especially as the number of Jedi in-game increases." -- Haden Blackman, 11/2003
"The slot opening message came at the first mob she killed today on dathomir, a female picket longhorn. " -- Monika T'Sarn
Wow, where the heck did you find this?
"You can unlock a force sensitive slot right now--all the tracking is in place, and people are checking off items." -- Raph Koster, August 2003 (Old Jedi Forums, available in Biophilia's Scrap Book)
[url]http://pc.ign.com/articles/452/452616p1.html[/url] -- The demand has really been amazing -- we're the fastest growing MMO ever -- in the Western world at least. It's really stretched our community management and customer service, but we've been buckling down and have made great progress on those fronts as well. We are also consistently hard at work with bug fixes and adding new content. We've surpassed 300K registered accounts and we're pretty happy with the progress. Raph Koster, October 2003
[url]http://pc.ign.com/articles/458/458606p1.html[/url] -- "As of Wednesday, November 5th..." Haden Blackman, November 2003
[url]http://swg.allakhazam.com/news/sdetail2617.html?story=2617[/url] -- "The slot opening message came at the first mob she killed today..." Akinom/Monika T'Sarn, November 2003
-----------------------------------
As more unlocks occurred, we noticed that the average of mastered professions seemed to progressively increase until the month prior to publish 9 when almost all of the unlocks required 28-32 professions. Many asked if anything had changed. They were ridiculed and told nothing had changed. Later on, after publishes 9 and 10 which removed the hologrind they admitted more hidden professions were being added, until the last month when it was 4 holo professions and 4 hiddens which was the maximum tracking possible. Nothing had changed because this feature was included in the original code, but something had changed regardless.
I'd like to see this scrapbook people have made reference to. How can I do that? Thanks for any tips
Do a googlesearch on "Biophilia's Scrap Book" and you'll get several options for both viewing versions online and downloading them. It appears that v 5.1 is only available as a download, and it's a huge download.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I make a point of thanking Biophilia every time I run into him. When he heard the boards were being taken down - he went into every forums and captured what he could. We owe him much. As someone who collects PreCU data, trust me - the internet washes a lot of what we assume is available away.
Frankly, the criminal code does not exempt software companies from its definition of fraud. To knowingly misrepresent a service and thereby take customers money is illegal--yes even for software companies.
As for saying that the jedi code was in the game, but they weren't playable, have you read Rubenfield's blog? He says he came up with the entire jedi system (that's coding) AFTER launch in a two week period.
Admriker's observation of new code patched into the game before all the unlocks corroborates Rubenfield's disclosure.
Releasing something that's not fully functional and fixing it in a timely manner is the scenario you seem to be describing. All available evidence suggests that this is clearly not what happened with the jedi system. Many other aspects of SWG surely, but not jedi.
Caveat emptor
Its latin, it doesn't get much older than that folks
and yes, I bought the game at release, and yes it said you could unlock Jedi at that point.
Yes.
We always knew we could unlock a jedi slot. However the method for doing so was supposed to be random not just a methodical grind of all the professions. That was the most unimaginative way of doing it that they could possibly have conceived. They would have been better off to leave them out entirely.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Frankly, the criminal code does not exempt software companies from its definition of fraud. To knowingly misrepresent a service and thereby take customers money is illegal--yes even for software companies.
As for saying that the jedi code was in the game, but they weren't playable, have you read Rubenfield's blog? He says he came up with the entire jedi system (that's coding) AFTER launch in a two week period.
Admriker's observation of new code patched into the game before all the unlocks corroborates Rubenfield's disclosure.
Releasing something that's not fully functional and fixing it in a timely manner is the scenario you seem to be describing. All available evidence suggests that this is clearly not what happened with the jedi system. Many other aspects of SWG surely, but not jedi.
When did they ever say that you could have a jedi on day 1? Frankly, even if the code was in the game until the third week, it wouldn't have been possible to get one before then anyway.
It's amazing how, no matter how crappy the rest of the game was, is, or will always be, people will still find the stupidest things to cry about.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Really? So had some form of code been in the game at launch...Jedi would not have been available? This despite the fact that previous information had jedi being random which would indicate that one would appear at any time...being random and all.
Oh, you mean the code that was put in the game 2 weeks after launch? The code that was a rush job to cover ones butt as the paying public was wondering what was happening? Hmmm, yep. When one writes the rules after the fact - it is impressive how much you can get away with.
Its amazing how, no matter how many the laws and consumer rights protections are put in place, some people will still bend over and take whatever someone will give them and yet fault others for not doing the same.
I don't know, I think it would have been a pretty good idea had the holocrons never been added as required profession revealers, and there was a random delay between fulfilling the requirements and getting the unlock message.
Think about it. You'd have to master five unknown, random professions and if done right there would be so few Jedi no one would figure out it was the professions. This would also assure that players that unlocked the slot would be well rounded swg players who voluntarily tried out many aspects of the game. That would have handily left out the belligerent whose sole purpose was to attain "the most powerful character in the game" to go out and wtfpwn other players.