I posted this in another thread, I thought it would fit here to explain what people look for when they say they want a "sandbox" game.
OP would have loved original SWG, there were no levels, no classes you were locked in to, you could mix and match professions however you wanted. You could have been a weaponsmith with a little rifleman on the side or a Bounty Hunter who also danced in a cantina. It was truly groundbreaking.
And because there were no set levels, new characters could do a lot of the same stuff that the oldest could do.
I spent most of my time as a Jedi-Hunting Bounty Hunter (yes you could hunt other players for money, it was in the game...incredible). I also spent some time killing a particular type of NPC for weapon powerups that I would sell to weaponsmiths, and also hunting creatures for meat to sell to doctors. I was also a member of a guild and participated in our player cities' government, and there was always the Bestine - AH faction pvp. These were all inter-player relationships, and they were better than the best WoW dungeon.
And SWG was a AAA game backed by a major company, not one of those half baked F2P games that, while they may have good ideas, don't have the funding or talent to make them appeal to a large audience on a long term scale.
I also have to disagree with Torak's assertiion that you have to do quests in LOTRO. There are very few quests you "have to do". Quite frankly the only one that I can think of that you have to do is one of the class quests and the quest that gets you by the guardian statues in Angmar.
You can disagree.... but you know that is the exception and not the rule in LotR. The game is designed to follow the books.
Its also combat centric as alternate activities like crafting are tied to combat levels and not independent.
ok, this is going on nicely. but still i need feedback on some games, and whether they can be called sandbox or not. this games are:
- Horizons: i am inclined to believe that it is not really a sandbox, altough the crafting is excelent
- Linage 2: seems that altough it is PVP focused with sieges and all that, it isnt really a sandbox games. opinions welcome
- Neocron: i have no experience on this game at all, and opinions have been contradictory so far
- Asheron Call: same as above. more opinions needed
- Fallen Earth
- Earthrise
and i would like to thank all those that took the time to share some memories with us. those that started with WoW and linear games are all they know are missing all those great things
Istaria (Horizons) does not have excellent crafting. It has...decent crafting. It is, however, a sandbox:
- It has quests, but you aren't forced to do them. The half-exceptions to this are these: --- The tutorial quests are pushy, but can be deleted (if I remember correctly; if not, they can just be ignored) and left alone. --- As a dragon you need to do quests to ascend to adulthood and later ancienthood, but you have the option to not do it and therefore not ascend. --- As a biped Confectioner there are "Rare" food formulae obtained via quests, but you don't need to have them.
- Almost unfettered multiclassing system. You can have all the adventuring and crafting classes maxed on one character. You can only have one active at a time, but some spells and abilities are usable by multiple classes.
- Non-instanced building. You can build whatever you want in your biped plot or dragon lair, limited of course by the size of the plot/lair you own and the selection of implemented structures. There are also ruins in the world that can be rebuilt by players.
- Relatively valuable crafting, with some flexibility in what the statistics of a crafted item will be (Techniques).
- Invasions, lore-based holidays, and other story-oriented live events. In the past, two playable races were unlocked via events.
- An overall feeling of freedom.
----------- In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
Fallen Earth looks lame. Earthrise is where it's at.
yeah because earthrise must be a good game if its got alot of developer promises and a couple of screenshots. its what makes darkfall better than any other mmo too.
The simple thruth is that, people are getting tired of the same old class/lvl based mmo. This is why you see mmo's such as Fallen Earth, Earthrise, APB, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Crusades Online and global Agenda coming out in the near future and some little more down the road.
All these games are structured in the same vain as UO, SWG and Eve. No lvl's and all skill based with your toon and your actions having a impact on the game world in some way. They all will have a very deep crafting system were anything that is player made will be what's best in the game, not some stupid dungeon loot drop.
Communities will be built on interdependencies and have true economies. Worlds and universe's will be huge and open, unlike the linear path style mmo's that litter the genre right now.
Sandbox games are meant for a player to create a toon that he or she can build and mold to their liking with infinite possibilities, in which a true feeling of attachment can be felt. Class/lvl based mmo's give the player the mechanism to have multiple toons that fit neatly into a certain class that once you reach the highest lvl, stops being and is just shelved and replaced with the next up at bat. No real attachment and growth at all.
Like the cars of the future will not be gas powered, i see the same for mmo's. The time of the clunky, linear spoonfed content mmo's is about to come to an end. People want more freedom and options. They want exploration and a sense of having a impact in the virtual game world.
ok, i have doubts about whether the next games could be defined as sandbox or not: Asheron's Call = psuedo sandbox, contains level system Roma Victor = litter box Lineage 2 = grinder, not sandbox as you have no real choice in builds or activities ,Dark and Light = worse than a litter box, even a mangy half-blind cat wouldn't piss in this one Pirates of the BS = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox Vanguard = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox Seed = had promise, met an unfortunate end so we'll never really know Neocron 2 = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox
In conclusion, the ability to roleplay or a large empty world does NOT a sandbox make.
IMO, a sandbox game means a game where the players can have an impact on the world.
It is irrelevant whether your character increases in power through levels or skills. Both accomplish the same thing, an increase in power.
Therefore, I don't know why you listed these games and included the fact that they have levels.
For example, you could tear down a bridge that provides a shortcut to an area, or upens up a zone, or you can build a bridge. This would change the gameworld.
Whether you are level 5, or have sword swinging skill level 5, would make no difference.
Anyone calling Second Life a true sandbox has lost a few too many screws upstairs. It is far more appropriate to call it a chat room on steroids than anything else.
I would include AC1 as very close to a sandbox MMO, but fails on the point it did have levels, even if they were pretty meaningless.
The number one distinquishing thing that a sandbox has is that your character is not boxed into specific classes and levels but learns skills instead.
Hence shadowbane with it's distinct class structures fails to meet the sandbox definition.
Originally posted by musicmann ... Like the cars of the future will not be gas powered, i see the same for mmo's. The time of the clunky, linear spoonfed content mmo's is about to come to an end. People want more freedom and options. They want exploration and a sense of having a impact in the virtual game world.
Originally posted by gillvane1 It is irrelevant whether your character increases in power through levels or skills. Both accomplish the same thing, an increase in power.
i agree about levels, i think that having them wont automatically turn a game not-sandbox. but i think having classes is terrible. and the problem is that levels almost always come together with classes.
also, levels often use XP to advance, and XP is usually adquired by killing mobs. and that is a problem for non-combat chars. the moment a healer wins XP for healing, and a crafter for collecting spices or cutting down trees, and a trader for selling and buying, then levels would be a good alternative for a sandbox game.
but as long as non-combat chars are forced to do quests or farm mobs to advance, then levels will be a problem for a game to be sandbox.
Comments
I posted this in another thread, I thought it would fit here to explain what people look for when they say they want a "sandbox" game.
OP would have loved original SWG, there were no levels, no classes you were locked in to, you could mix and match professions however you wanted. You could have been a weaponsmith with a little rifleman on the side or a Bounty Hunter who also danced in a cantina. It was truly groundbreaking.
And because there were no set levels, new characters could do a lot of the same stuff that the oldest could do.
I spent most of my time as a Jedi-Hunting Bounty Hunter (yes you could hunt other players for money, it was in the game...incredible). I also spent some time killing a particular type of NPC for weapon powerups that I would sell to weaponsmiths, and also hunting creatures for meat to sell to doctors. I was also a member of a guild and participated in our player cities' government, and there was always the Bestine - AH faction pvp. These were all inter-player relationships, and they were better than the best WoW dungeon.
And SWG was a AAA game backed by a major company, not one of those half baked F2P games that, while they may have good ideas, don't have the funding or talent to make them appeal to a large audience on a long term scale.
Wasn't Vanguard a sandbox game?
No. Check out Fallen Earth on these forums. It is a Sandbox in development right now and it is far along.
No. Check out Fallen Earth on these forums. It is a Sandbox in development right now and it is far along.
Meh, FPS. It's almost perfect, but just not there.
Fallen Earth looks lame.
Earthrise is where it's at.
You can disagree....Its also combat centric as alternate activities like crafting are tied to combat levels and not independent.
ok, this is going on nicely. but still i need feedback on some games, and whether they can be called sandbox or not. this games are:
- Horizons: i am inclined to believe that it is not really a sandbox, altough the crafting is excelent
- Linage 2: seems that altough it is PVP focused with sieges and all that, it isnt really a sandbox games. opinions welcome
- Neocron: i have no experience on this game at all, and opinions have been contradictory so far
- Asheron Call: same as above. more opinions needed
- Fallen Earth
- Earthrise
and i would like to thank all those that took the time to share some memories with us. those that started with WoW and linear games are all they know are missing all those great things
Istaria (Horizons) does not have excellent crafting. It has...decent crafting. It is, however, a sandbox:
- It has quests, but you aren't forced to do them. The half-exceptions to this are these:
--- The tutorial quests are pushy, but can be deleted (if I remember correctly; if not, they can just be ignored) and left alone.
--- As a dragon you need to do quests to ascend to adulthood and later ancienthood, but you have the option to not do it and therefore not ascend.
--- As a biped Confectioner there are "Rare" food formulae obtained via quests, but you don't need to have them.
- Almost unfettered multiclassing system. You can have all the adventuring and crafting classes maxed on one character. You can only have one active at a time, but some spells and abilities are usable by multiple classes.
- Non-instanced building. You can build whatever you want in your biped plot or dragon lair, limited of course by the size of the plot/lair you own and the selection of implemented structures. There are also ruins in the world that can be rebuilt by players.
- Relatively valuable crafting, with some flexibility in what the statistics of a crafted item will be (Techniques).
- Invasions, lore-based holidays, and other story-oriented live events. In the past, two playable races were unlocked via events.
- An overall feeling of freedom.
-----------
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
its amazing how many sandbox fanbois overlook runescape, currently one of the biggest mmo's, which is about a sandy as a sandbox can be.
there where many players who did not ever kill a monster, combat and quests was just part of the game some chose to ignore.
Dear Game Developers,
Nerf Rock.
Paper is fine though.
Regards,
Scissors.
yeah because earthrise must be a good game if its got alot of developer promises and a couple of screenshots. its what makes darkfall better than any other mmo too.
Dear Game Developers,
Nerf Rock.
Paper is fine though.
Regards,
Scissors.
The simple thruth is that, people are getting tired of the same old class/lvl based mmo. This is why you see mmo's such as Fallen Earth, Earthrise, APB, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Crusades Online and global Agenda coming out in the near future and some little more down the road.
All these games are structured in the same vain as UO, SWG and Eve. No lvl's and all skill based with your toon and your actions having a impact on the game world in some way. They all will have a very deep crafting system were anything that is player made will be what's best in the game, not some stupid dungeon loot drop.
Communities will be built on interdependencies and have true economies. Worlds and universe's will be huge and open, unlike the linear path style mmo's that litter the genre right now.
Sandbox games are meant for a player to create a toon that he or she can build and mold to their liking with infinite possibilities, in which a true feeling of attachment can be felt. Class/lvl based mmo's give the player the mechanism to have multiple toons that fit neatly into a certain class that once you reach the highest lvl, stops being and is just shelved and replaced with the next up at bat. No real attachment and growth at all.
Like the cars of the future will not be gas powered, i see the same for mmo's. The time of the clunky, linear spoonfed content mmo's is about to come to an end. People want more freedom and options. They want exploration and a sense of having a impact in the virtual game world.
IMO, a sandbox game means a game where the players can have an impact on the world.
It is irrelevant whether your character increases in power through levels or skills. Both accomplish the same thing, an increase in power.
Therefore, I don't know why you listed these games and included the fact that they have levels.
For example, you could tear down a bridge that provides a shortcut to an area, or upens up a zone, or you can build a bridge. This would change the gameworld.
Whether you are level 5, or have sword swinging skill level 5, would make no difference.
Anyone calling Second Life a true sandbox has lost a few too many screws upstairs. It is far more appropriate to call it a chat room on steroids than anything else.
I would include AC1 as very close to a sandbox MMO, but fails on the point it did have levels, even if they were pretty meaningless.
The number one distinquishing thing that a sandbox has is that your character is not boxed into specific classes and levels but learns skills instead.
Hence shadowbane with it's distinct class structures fails to meet the sandbox definition.
i wish that were true...
EVE is not a sandbox, some levelbased games make it better.
i agree about levels, i think that having them wont automatically turn a game not-sandbox. but i think having classes is terrible. and the problem is that levels almost always come together with classes.
also, levels often use XP to advance, and XP is usually adquired by killing mobs. and that is a problem for non-combat chars. the moment a healer wins XP for healing, and a crafter for collecting spices or cutting down trees, and a trader for selling and buying, then levels would be a good alternative for a sandbox game.
but as long as non-combat chars are forced to do quests or farm mobs to advance, then levels will be a problem for a game to be sandbox.