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WoW : WotLK PvP
darkstar912
Member Posts: 37
is it just me? or do all their new PvP ideas seems very similar to WAR's ideas....
aside from the SUPERDUPER fun of arena's...
. Zone dedicated to PvP with minor PvE influence
.Destructable doors/walls (step up from "wait for the meter")
.Destructable Keeps with siege (both attack and defend)
.with a instanced(BG) version of this... roflcakes (just another way to kill world PvP)
"Bridges are very large and very tall, players should be able to see them from anywhere in the map. They're also totally destructable as well."
in oh so many podcast it seems as though Mark or Paul brag about just how big everything is going to be. Citys, towers, shrines, etc. I personally was very impressed when i saw the bright wizard college podcast and even more impressed when i saw it from ingame footage.
but ask any fanboi and they will say "its done in a original way"
http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=b164b07135ddadc5f6976a1dd7f96350&topic=9499.0
to stoked this game is following DAoC blueprint 
Comments
I've noticed that too
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
I think there is a lot of give and take, to be honest. I mean, sure, WoW may be copying some of WAR's concepts, but I think WAR is also copying some of WoW's concepts, and both games certainly copied (and improved on) earlier concepts. Things like this are inevitable, and signs of progress and evolution within an industry. Very few things are entirely original, and every product owes a lot to those that came before it.
There is also the concept of indepedent discovery. Sometimes two companies can make similar products or implement similar ideas without actually having copied one another. Crazier things have happened.
So, even though I am a big supporter of WAR, I do not begrudge some of the things coming in WotLK. After all, imitation is the greatest form of flattery. Besides, WAR is more of a total RvR solution, whereas WoW is introducing it more as a playground, not a focus.
Doesn't much matter what ideas they try to use because their PvP system doesn't support it.
WAR= PvP anywhere and everywhere gets you rewards
WoW= Arena gets you the BEST rewards, BG's get you decent rewards, and Open world gets you nothing but a 5% damage buff/spirit shards.
So they have to rework their PvP system or they will leave it like it is and the zone will get small amounts of use near the start of the expanion but become the next Halaa. I think the later will be the case since Blizzard is lazy and quite possibly the slowest game devs on the planet.
WoW pvp is epic failure cause 90% of the player base is pve heavy .
So even if they had pvp content it will be left out and not many ppl will do it unless they give very good reward .
Meh, I don't care..
It's all max level content and besides it's too late. In WAR I can siege and PVP from level 1 and I can level my toons through PvP as well rather than grinding through 80 levels of PvE quests so I can finally, maybe, just maybe do some meaningful PvP at the end.
Too little, too late. If this came out as the first expansion and it involved characters from early levels and PvP XP I'd probably still be playing WoW and yelling how teh awesomes it is. However, as with most other things in WoW, this is simply too little and too late. I really have no idea where those 150 mil $$ / month are going to...
I'm curious to see how WoW tries to push this kind of content back down the levels; as things stand the best they seem to have come up with so far is to make it easier to level to 60 (not a good solution).
Bottom line, I completely agree that WoW's basic design is a real problem for PvP - it's obviously ground-up designed for PvE, and that shows in so many ways which cannot really be fixed without destroying something. WAR should be much better in that regard!
^ Funding the development of SC2, D3, WoTLK and their next MMO of course =P
WAR is also designed for PvE. I fail to see how grinding other players without any interaction other then combat just to get some silly pvp points to buy better gear is PvP. PvP is full interaction not just combat. Politics, guild versus guild, body-looting,...
REALITY CHECK
WAR is also designed for PvE. I fail to see how grinding other players without any interaction other then combat just to get some silly pvp points to buy better gear is PvP. PvP is full interaction not just combat. Politics, guild versus guild, body-looting,...
I'm sure you'll see plenty of politics and guild interaction. DAoC had a lot of those and WAR introduces quite a bit of additional stuff to foster that kind of thing.
Grinding PvP points for gear? Please get informed and then come back. WAR has renown but it is just a part of the overall character progression. You can grind renown only but you'll end up with a very gimped character.
In addition success in WAR requires group effort on so many levels that the me-me-me implication you got there is completely absurd. You'll be fighting for and with your realm all the time, whether you're aware of it or not. Selfishness will lead you nowhere fast, just like in any RL army-type environment.
As for teh hardcorez stuff like body-looting etc.. I like my PvP fast and furious and death penalties seriously slow down the pace of PvP. Yeah, we can have full body looting but who is going to PvP then? I'll tell you who - people who are certain they'll win - aka gankers. That's why body looting games die very fast - harsh death penalties = less risk taking = less fun. In the end the risk-takers end up with much worse gear than those who play it safe (aka gankers) and the game degenerates into a sadistic torture chamber and dies. POtBS anyone? That's your basic Introductory Game Theory 101 and this whole subject has been done to death before so no point in continuing isn't it?
/add
Kudos to EVE that managed to avoid this social-darwinist meltdown through some pretty smart game design but it did it by paying a pretty stiff price, at least for me. 1) you have to "work" quite a bit before you can compete in PvP and 2) When you get there the PvP is very far between. Sorry but I'm a working man and when I want to bash some skulls for my hard earned $$ and free time I want to bash some skulls and not bother with guild drama or grinding asteroids... I do that in RL so no thanks.
I'm sure you'll see plenty of politics and guild interaction. DAoC had a lot of those and WAR introduces quite a bit of additional stuff to foster that kind of thing.
Grinding PvP points for gear? Please get informed and then come back. WAR has renown but it is just a part of the overall character progression. You can grind renown only but you'll end up with a very gimped character.
In addition success in WAR requires group effort on so many levels that the me-me-me implication you got there is completely absurd. You'll be fighting for and with your realm all the time, whether you're aware of it or not. Selfishness will lead you nowhere fast, just like in any RL army-type environment.
As for teh hardcorez stuff like body-looting etc.. I like my PvP fast and furious and death penalties seriously slow down the pace of PvP. Yeah, we can have full body looting but who is going to PvP then? I'll tell you who - people who are certain they'll win - aka gankers. That's why body looting games die very fast - harsh death penalties = less risk taking = less fun. In the end the risk-takers end up with much worse gear than those who play it safe (aka gankers) and the game degenerates into a sadistic torture chamber and dies. POtBS anyone? That's your basic Introductory Game Theory 101 and this whole subject has been done to death before so no point in continuing isn't it?
You are contradictory in your every statement.
Who cares that you farm points for your realm? Seriously, what the hell does it change. WAR will not have a dynamic world outside of the few pvp stations.
Gankers end up having better gear in full body looting games? Did you ever play a full body looting game? I seriously doubt that. Gankers were killed out first always. In addition in a game where you can't see how powerful the other character is, there is much less gankers. The reason behind this is obvious.
Indeed renown, it leads to gear in WAR. And do not tell me what should I do, I'm not gonna spend hours and hours watching every silly video about this overhyped shit.
REALITY CHECK
I'm sure you'll see plenty of politics and guild interaction. DAoC had a lot of those and WAR introduces quite a bit of additional stuff to foster that kind of thing.
Grinding PvP points for gear? Please get informed and then come back. WAR has renown but it is just a part of the overall character progression. You can grind renown only but you'll end up with a very gimped character.
In addition success in WAR requires group effort on so many levels that the me-me-me implication you got there is completely absurd. You'll be fighting for and with your realm all the time, whether you're aware of it or not. Selfishness will lead you nowhere fast, just like in any RL army-type environment.
As for teh hardcorez stuff like body-looting etc.. I like my PvP fast and furious and death penalties seriously slow down the pace of PvP. Yeah, we can have full body looting but who is going to PvP then? I'll tell you who - people who are certain they'll win - aka gankers. That's why body looting games die very fast - harsh death penalties = less risk taking = less fun. In the end the risk-takers end up with much worse gear than those who play it safe (aka gankers) and the game degenerates into a sadistic torture chamber and dies. POtBS anyone? That's your basic Introductory Game Theory 101 and this whole subject has been done to death before so no point in continuing isn't it?
You are contradictory in your every statement.
Who cares that you farm points for your realm? Seriously, what the hell does it change. WAR will not have a dynamic world outside of the few pvp stations.
Completely and utterly wrong. This statement identifies you as a completely ignorant troll. Welcome to my ignore list and good bye.
Gankers end up having better gear in full body looting games? Did you ever play a full body looting game? I seriously doubt that. Gankers were killed out first always. In addition in a game where you can't see how powerful the other character is, there is much less gankers. The reason behind this is obvious.
Indeed renown, it leads to gear in WAR. And do not tell me what should I do, I'm not gonna spend hours and hours watching every silly video about this overhyped shit.
Bye, bye... Glad I won't see you around on my server. Have fun in whatever game turns you on.
Everyone who puts someone to ignore list and then bothers to reply to his last respond saying "Welcome to my ignore list" should be whipped.
Anyway, dynamic world means things like factions change. Not just change of control of some PvP stations.
REALITY CHECK
The PvP design in EVE has been reworked so you can get into PvP far more easily - check out the latest Empyrian Age expansion (but think it through before you leap into PvP in a shiny little frigate!
You are clueless. I'm sorry but you really don't know jack-shit about how the WAR RvR system works and what it entails. Sorry again but I'm not going to explain it to you since I don't like you enough to be bothered. Read up a bit before you post on something otherwise you'll come out either as an ignorant fool or an intentional troll.
/over and out
You are clueless. I'm sorry but you really don't know jack-shit about how the WAR RvR system works and what it entails. Sorry again but I'm not going to explain it to you since I don't like you enough to be bothered. Read up a bit before you post on something else you'll come out either as an ignorant fool or an intentional troll.
/over and out
Did you put me to ignore list or not? Why not if you already sent me a welcome letter.
I ask you a few things about WAR.
If at least one of the questions get a positive answer Ill reconsider my opinion about WAR. These are the things that makes a PvP game for me. Everything else is PvE.
People yell for freedom in their life, but yet in games they want as little freedom as possible. So I guess it's the same in reality, they yell for it but not really want it.
REALITY CHECK
And we are arguing here and bitching on each other so stop with the pussy talk like "welcome to my ignore list, bye bye and enjoy whatever game you like, i hope it's not the ones I do.. etc"
REALITY CHECK
Can you control with your guild or your friends certain PvP point? And rob travelers passing by?
Half yes, you can take a keep with a guild but you can't can't rob people.
Can you loot bodies of dead players?
Yes, but you are not taking their gear, they generate loot like a PvE mob.
Did you put me to ignore list or not? Why not if you already sent me a welcome letter.
I ask you a few things about WAR.
If at least one of the questions get a positive answer Ill reconsider my opinion about WAR. These are the things that makes a PvP game for me. Everything else is PvE.
People yell for freedom in their life, but yet in games they want as little freedom as possible. So I guess it's the same in reality, they yell for it but not really want it.
A honest no to all, you people don't get it do you the man is right. Sure the game might be really good. But you are all complaining he doesn't watch the MARKETING!!! video's and then takes it all in like it's facts. Look at how well AoC worked out... just like in their marketing movies right? Oh wait.....
You people are all going blindly on the fact oh you can level while PvPing, oh you can do this cool thing? Do you know how its implemented? I mean for all you know you get 3 xp per PvP kill and it takes you 20 years to level like that? Fanboi's have to learn, just because marketing people say something is true doesn't mean it's what you think it is. Just because some energy drink commercial on tv says the drink will give you energy you never knew you had etc etc does that mean when you drink it you will turn into superman and can shoot energy beams from your eyes? It sure doesn't but you people seem to think it works like that with mmo marketing.
As for the topic yeah wow pvp is not ideal by any means, but for me atm when wotlk comes out it looks like (see how i didnt say will be like some fanboi's in this thread say about war?) it will be the most complete and fun game for what I want from a game. And even tho i'd like those 6 things named above more then anything, i know in this climate of mmo consumers it will be hard pressed to find something like that because company's want the 10mil subs wow has... and not the possibly 200k subs that actually want a hardcore pvp game like that.
Many of you probably dont realise that PvP zones were on the table in WoW upto just a few months from release. Alteric Valley was designed to be open world with PvE and PvP objectives. However blizzard dropped this and made it a 40v40 battle ground.
So its not like blizzard are going "oh look what WAR is doing" they had these ideas before WAR was even on thought.
Heres a good 30min video at last years Blizzcon '07 where blizzard devs talk about their PvP mindset, as well as there mistakes (how many devs do that?) and their future plans for Wotlk.
I suggest you watch these before you dimiss Blizzard PvP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azbolVrSOO0&feature=related (1 / 7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bINDqosD-9M&feature=related (2 / 7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McWg54PIsE8&feature=related (3 / 7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4SHP4igfbI&feature=related (4 / 7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGFMLDg7gm8&feature=related (5 / 7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjLtxHqLlw4&feature=related (6 / 7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMn09CFYCaI&feature=related (7 / 7)
Its really interesting how people talk about games that arent ready and they havent played.
WoW Forum was full of this "WoW has PVP" and co before launch too, and you know what has happened. So please talk not about non ready games ....
You are clueless. I'm sorry but you really don't know jack-shit about how the WAR RvR system works and what it entails. Sorry again but I'm not going to explain it to you since I don't like you enough to be bothered. Read up a bit before you post on something else you'll come out either as an ignorant fool or an intentional troll.
/over and out
Did you put me to ignore list or not? Why not if you already sent me a welcome letter.
I ask you a few things about WAR.
If at least one of the questions get a positive answer Ill reconsider my opinion about WAR. These are the things that makes a PvP game for me. Everything else is PvE.
People yell for freedom in their life, but yet in games they want as little freedom as possible. So I guess it's the same in reality, they yell for it but not really want it.
This goddam site is the worst programmed forum in history. Just wrote a page of beautifully worded and argued reply and due to a connection glitch got everything erased. Unbelievable.
Hell, I won't bother. Suffice to say that a) I can't help myself - I need a good word fight time and again and b) you are confused..
The requirement list you got there has nothing to do with "dynamic world" and everything to do with "guild-based hardcore FFA PvP" ruleset. One does not have to entail the other. If someone made a game according to these 6 points it wouldn't have to be a dynamic world one... Quite the opposite, I'd say that this potential game would have to be in an extremely static world with a myriad of arbitrary limitations (like AoC's timed sieges and player limits) in order to avoid a meltdown.
As for freedom... History has shown time and again that anarchy invariably leads to the worst possible forms of totalitarianism through simple darwinist mechanics. This is simple Game Theory 101 again. If you give wolves full reign they'll slaughter all the sheep and ultimately go extinct themselves. Usually it is the societies which superficially seem the most "carebearish" in the form of taxes and "namby-pamby" laws that turn out to be able to afford giving and securing the most freedom to their members.
Freedom entails responsibility but you cannot count on anonymous frustrated Joes out for some good old stress-release to hold that kind of responsibility for the game as a whole. It wouldn't be fair anyway since they are entitled to entertainment that they paid for. That's why all those arguments "This game is awesome but the dumb players screw it up" are utterly flawed. A good game design presents a ruleset that is clearly understood and that naturally leads the players to behave in a manner beneficial to other players' enjoyment of the game...
Good MMO design: what is good for the individual = good for the game
Bad MMO design: what is good for the individual = bad for the game
The idealistic "guild-based hardcore FFA PvP" ruleset that you propose is essentially flawed because it doesn't follow the above rule... so it has to be compensated somehow. But that is not the subject of this discussion.
The point is, WAR is a dynamic world since the game world state changes constantly (at a level VASTLY beyond "some PvP stations") and it does so through player action. It is a PvP game as well because it revolves around and features a lot of Player vs Player conflict. You might not like some of its features but thats your prerogative and we can merrily argue about them till kingdom come. However, don't go stating things that are obviously untrue to prove your point or establish the superiority of your very personal preferences. That's not how proper discussions are conducted.
...damn, it seems that I bothered after all... Love those sunday mornings with all that free time to spend!
When it comes down to it, WoW simply wasn't designed to handle Open World PvP. I found it hilarious how World PvP was a major bulletin point in their presentation (and this was done in 2007), and yet World PvP is STILL to this day a complete and utter failure in WoW. Either they're just not capable of handling mass people in the world in one area (because the WoW system wasn't designed from the ground up to handle it) and/or they just simply have no clue how to design compelling open world pvp gameplay.
This is where WAR has the leg up on WoW as far as open world pvp is concerned. They KNOW how to do this stuff (as proven in daoc) and they have the system in place to handle it. WoW may be just catching up with the siege warfare stuff, but I doubt if it will be nearly as compelling and sophisticated as WAR's version. If WoW's idea of open world Towers are any indication (a joke), I don't see their siege warfare mechanism matching WAR's. Blizzard may have been excellent with the PvE and overall polish, but they have always consistantly been weak on the mass pvp stuff.
When it comes down to it, WoW simply wasn't designed to handle Open World PvP. I found it hilarious how World PvP was a major bulletin point in their presentation (and this was done in 2007), and yet World PvP is STILL to this day a complete and utter failure in WoW. Either they're just not capable of handling mass people in the world in one area (because the WoW system wasn't designed from the ground up to handle it) or they just simply have no clue how to design compelling open world pvp gameplay.
This is where WAR has the leg up on WoW as far as open world pvp is concerned. They KNOW how to do this stuff (as proven in daoc) and they have the system in place to handle it. WoW may be just catching up with the siege warfare stuff, but I doubt if it will be nearly as compelling and sophisticated as WAR's version. If WoW's idea of open world Towers are any indication (a joke), I don't see their siege warfare mechanism matching WAR's. Blizzard may have been excellent with the PvE and overall polish, but they have always consistantly been weak on the mass pvp stuff.
Well I tell you what we know so far about the new open PvP zone in wotlk (lake wintergrasp).
Only one zone?
Well I tell you what we know so far about the new open PvP zone in wotlk (lake wintergrasp).
OMG! That is so lame! Why must Blizzard turn everything about PvP into a SPORTING MATCH?! This is not Football or Basketball, this is a fantasy role playing game. Do they have no concept of IMMERSION? Their PvP designer should be shot.
Man.. now I KNOW I will be skipping this and getting WAR.