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Villains.

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  • DouhkDouhk Member Posts: 1,019
    Originally posted by redcap036

    Originally posted by sepher


    I'm probably behind in any news regarding the ability to play villains at launch, but last I heard it sounded sorta cemented that there'd be Hero only gameplay with the only PvP being some arena deal or somesuch.



    There's a mentioning of Villain gameplay in a new 1up preview/interview from a few days ago though: http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3167585&p=4
    The discourse dovetails naturally into City of Villains and whether Champions will let you play the bad guy right out of the box. Emmert responds with a "maybe," though the duo seems to think they're onto something special. "[In COH/COV], heroes were always more popular than villains," says Lewis, "but the hero and villain gameplay was pretty much the same. We think the villains' content was a lot better, and we found a lot of people playing villains simply because it was a new and better experience. But it's something we're thinking about in Champions: Is the gameplay experience the same for a hero and a villain? But that's part of our top-secret plan we're not talking about."





    I sure hope they DO allow villains at launch, especially if they want to be seen as a company that's learned from some of City of Heroes shortcomings.



    It wouldn't hurt if they evolved their ideas about PvP inclusion as well. Maybe they will  after the three heavyweights of PvP hit this year; AoC's border kingdoms, WAR's RvR, and if nothing else, WoW's world PvP.



    I'd be satisfied with just the ability to play a villain though.

     

    Maybe it won't be a push button A to be a Hero or press B to be a Villain, hopefully they might just make it that the player determine thru his actions, costume and style of name what they want to become and maybe moral's.



     

    That would be pretty neat, but extensive. That's more for a single person RPG at this point... I don't think games at this point are ready for that much of a step.

    image If only SW:TOR could be this epic...

  • yggdrasill00yggdrasill00 Member Posts: 2
    Originally posted by Wrymstrum

    Originally posted by yggdrasill00

    Originally posted by Wrymstrum


     
    Originally posted by badavatar 
    I see where you are coming from, I just think that like I said previously, it's up to the dev studio to properly institute these ideas without taking away from the game's overall experience.
    on the issue of making a big deal out of which side you are playing, well, sorry, for some of us, it is a big deal, especially in a game environment like this one built on a base of classic good vs. evil as if in a comic. there are those of us who enjoy the evil persona and dark storytelling associated with villains. aside from that, there are those who like to use their villainous avatar as an extension of their less publicly acceptable self. hey, sometimes I just want a good excuse to be an asshole. it's bad form to be a jerk in an atmosphere where everyone playing is a 'good guy'(which is most games) and those of us who know the meaning of personal restraint aren't going to make an ass of themselves unless the environment we are playing in lends to it. people get to be a hero and save the day in most games that hit the market. many of us appreciate the chance to occasionally do something different.  it's not a matter of machismo, or degrading the way others like to play, it's that some of us could use a place to be selfish, indulgent, unyielding and powerful without actually going to jail.

     

    I don't think it's possible to make a game for symmetric factions without seriously hampering content and story development.  You can do certain things to help, but it's always a trade off. 

     

    I know playing the evil side is a big deal to some people, but having a lot of good content is a huge issue for everyone.  I think making villains primarily PVP characters is a good compromise.  You still get to play as villains and the PVE content isn't being split in half or turned into generic mush.  I think the vast majority of villain inclined players would accept this as long as the villains were still highly customizable, allowed character development paths such as getting new powers and upgrading others, and there were lots of varried activities for villains rather than just hanging out in one zone looking for heroes to assault. 

     



     

    I'd prefer if my villain could enjoy doing PvE content without worrying about PvP interference. Making villains where they are mostly PvP and stuck in zones where there is always PvP to worry about would suck IMO.

     

    Well playing an MMO with a serious lack of content because everything is being split 50/50 between two factions would suck IMO.



     

    Because giving one alot of content and the other minimal content is so much better, last time I checked WoW had two factions and it seems to be doing damn good :P

  • WrymstrumWrymstrum Member Posts: 196
    Originally posted by yggdrasill00

    Originally posted by Wrymstrum

    Originally posted by yggdrasill00

    Originally posted by Wrymstrum


     
    Originally posted by badavatar 
    I see where you are coming from, I just think that like I said previously, it's up to the dev studio to properly institute these ideas without taking away from the game's overall experience.
    on the issue of making a big deal out of which side you are playing, well, sorry, for some of us, it is a big deal, especially in a game environment like this one built on a base of classic good vs. evil as if in a comic. there are those of us who enjoy the evil persona and dark storytelling associated with villains. aside from that, there are those who like to use their villainous avatar as an extension of their less publicly acceptable self. hey, sometimes I just want a good excuse to be an asshole. it's bad form to be a jerk in an atmosphere where everyone playing is a 'good guy'(which is most games) and those of us who know the meaning of personal restraint aren't going to make an ass of themselves unless the environment we are playing in lends to it. people get to be a hero and save the day in most games that hit the market. many of us appreciate the chance to occasionally do something different.  it's not a matter of machismo, or degrading the way others like to play, it's that some of us could use a place to be selfish, indulgent, unyielding and powerful without actually going to jail.

     

    I don't think it's possible to make a game for symmetric factions without seriously hampering content and story development.  You can do certain things to help, but it's always a trade off. 

     

    I know playing the evil side is a big deal to some people, but having a lot of good content is a huge issue for everyone.  I think making villains primarily PVP characters is a good compromise.  You still get to play as villains and the PVE content isn't being split in half or turned into generic mush.  I think the vast majority of villain inclined players would accept this as long as the villains were still highly customizable, allowed character development paths such as getting new powers and upgrading others, and there were lots of varried activities for villains rather than just hanging out in one zone looking for heroes to assault. 

     



     

    I'd prefer if my villain could enjoy doing PvE content without worrying about PvP interference. Making villains where they are mostly PvP and stuck in zones where there is always PvP to worry about would suck IMO.

     

    Well playing an MMO with a serious lack of content because everything is being split 50/50 between two factions would suck IMO.



     

    Because giving one alot of content and the other minimal content is so much better, last time I checked WoW had two factions and it seems to be doing damn good :P

     

    Yes, it is better.  You're free to make a villain to PVP with instantly.  No grinding menial tasks to level them up.  It'd kind of similar to how Guild Wars operates.  They don't need extensive PVE content.  Or you can play a hero in a more tradiitional manner, doing pve content and eventually PVP as well. 

     

    Yes, WOW has been successful, but that doesn't mean that you can/should copy everything they did.  The vast majority of PVE content isn't faction specific, so WOW isn't really affected by the content drain in a direct way.  I don't think that would work in a superhero game, so really you can't copy them exactly. 

    ~~~ Currently Playing ~~~
    LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.

    Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.

  • th3proph3cyth3proph3cy Member UncommonPosts: 31

    Giving an isntant "cap leveled" villain just to pvp with is utterly useless; best if they didn't even have villians!

    I agree with what people were speaking of in the first few pages. I think having both heroes and villains would have to be the case; it is a superhero genre, after all, and most people would expect to be able to be good or evil.

    I for one, would appreciate villains being playable in CO, but, not the way City of Villains implemented it. Having a complete copy of game play (with a major FRONT END difference) is silly.

    It's just like making another hero again, because you're still doing the same thing either way!

    Sure, the game play would have to remain similar because that's what the game pretty much is, but a few differences to how things interact would be much more fun.

    Maybe, as a villain, you'd have to "lurk in the shadows", avoiding the city's main area or be chased down by police. Even things like street cleaning could be different; other than stopping people from ruining the city, why not help them? Help a bank robbery, or fend off police whilst your fellow npc villains get what they need ~ then beat them down and take it from them.. =P

    But regardless, CO will definitely be something I'll be replacing (to an extent) City of Heroes / Villains with (and about time!!).

  • DeathlicheDeathliche Member Posts: 9

    I've been reading all the rants and raves about playing heroes and villians and wondered why can't there be both?  Using WoW as a comparison, it has Horde and Alliance.  On a PVP server they can interact by killing each other if they wanted.  Why not the same for CO?  Have both the villians and the heroes at the same time.  This will give the players a choice to be good or evil AND interact with each other.  

    Mob drops for each side could be incorporated this way too.  Do you sell that item the boss dropped for lots of in-game currency or do you just sell / delete it so the villian / hero can't use it against you in PVP?

    Just some thoughts. 

    Total Gamer

  • WrymstrumWrymstrum Member Posts: 196
    Originally posted by Deathliche


    Using WoW as a comparison, it has Horde and Alliance.  On a PVP server they can interact by killing each other if they wanted.  Why not the same for CO?

     

    Because it's not the same thing.   There's more significant differences between heroes and villains than horde and alliance. 

    ~~~ Currently Playing ~~~
    LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.

    Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.

  • DeathlicheDeathliche Member Posts: 9

    I disagree with your statement of it's not the same thing...

    Both sides can have use of the same character creater, both sides can choose from the same powers, and both sides can start in their own areas to prevent higher lvls character from just ganking low lvl characters just for the heck of it.  Both sides can have their own missions ("quests") that are relevant to their affiliation.

    SO, imo, it can be similiar to WoW and CAN be implemented with alittle work.  Will it be easy?  Probably not, but anything that has worth isn't easy.  I believe going along those lines would make for fun PVPing.  My character could have a player character nemesis on the same server that always seems to gank me at the wrong times, and vice versa. 

    I not saying to make it exactly like WoW either.  Use what is known to work to your advantage, if you can, and progress from there.

    My question, I guess, is why can't they be the same?    

    Total Gamer

  • WrymstrumWrymstrum Member Posts: 196
    Originally posted by Deathliche


    I disagree with your statement of it's not the same thing...
    Both sides can have use of the same character creater, both sides can choose from the same powers, and both sides can start in their own areas to prevent higher lvls character from just ganking low lvl characters just for the heck of it.  Both sides can have their own missions ("quests") that are relevant to their affiliation.
    SO, imo, it can be similiar to WoW and CAN be implemented with alittle work.  Will it be easy?  Probably not, but anything that has worth isn't easy.  I believe going along those lines would make for fun PVPing.  My character could have a player character nemesis on the same server that always seems to gank me at the wrong times, and vice versa. 
    I not saying to make it exactly like WoW either.  Use what is known to work to your advantage, if you can, and progress from there.
    My question, I guess, is why can't they be the same?    

     

    Because the vast majority of the PVE content is exactly the same for the horde and the alliance.  That doesn't work in a superhero game except in limited circumstances. 

    ~~~ Currently Playing ~~~
    LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.

    Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.

  • DeathlicheDeathliche Member Posts: 9

    You seem to be pretty vague as to why it won't work in a Super Hero MMORPG.  I believe it can be done.

    Total Gamer

  • WrymstrumWrymstrum Member Posts: 196
    Originally posted by Deathliche


    You seem to be pretty vague as to why it won't work in a Super Hero MMORPG.  I believe it can be done.

     

    I didn't say it wouldn't work at all, I just said that it wouldn't work like it does in WOW.  And I wasn't vague. 

     

    With the exception of a few low level instances, all of the main content in WOW is the same for the horde and the alliance.  Blizzard doesn't create raids for the horde and separate raids for the Alliance.  You could do heroes and villains in an MMO, but because the nature of the factions is much more different than in games like WOW you'd have to much more separate content for those factions.  So you have to make sacrifices in order to do heroes and villains that you don't have to do for horde and alliance in WOW. 

    Also it's just easier to do content for heroes.  Heroes are reactive.  The bag guy is out there, you go foil his plot and kick his butt.  Fairly simple to do.  It's much harder to do villain content right without making the villains be total lackeys for some super villain.  

    ~~~ Currently Playing ~~~
    LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.

    Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.

  • DeathlicheDeathliche Member Posts: 9

    I didn't say earlier to make it EXACTLY like WoW but it could be made to be similiar to WoW.  Both Hero and Villian should be able to exist in a virtual world and interact with each other, just like in WoW

    To put a realistic approach on things, there is no good person  world and a different bad person world in real life.  We have both types of people existing in our world.  To make a good super hero / villian MMO, there has to be some interaction between hero and villians players.  Having the heroes raid against the villians at higher lvls would be awesome.  Having the villians plan and stage an attack on a specific target while trying to evade the heroes would be a great raid too.  And they don't have to be instances to do it either.  Real time, real world events that affect everyone in game would be noteworthy.  This would take the reactiveness out of the heroes and make them seek out player villians.  I am really  not a big PVP'er but I like playing it that environment.

    I understand the villian concept may be harder to do but what if every character starts out neutral and then chooses to be either a hero or villian?  Give the players choices that affect their alignment towards good or evil.  Pretty much like Knights of the Old Republic.  Missions could then be dual sided with rewards for doing the right thing or rewards for doing the "bad" thing.  That would also create whole new factions of good NPC groups and evil NPC groups.  And if you want you could switch sides but there should be some risk in doing that alot.

    These are just some of the ideas I believe should be a good superhero / villian MMORPG.  Thanks for the input too Wyrm.  The whole villian content thing has got me thinking.    

     

     

    Total Gamer

  • WrymstrumWrymstrum Member Posts: 196
    Originally posted by Deathliche


    I didn't say earlier to make it EXACTLY like WoW but it could be made to be similiar to WoW.  Both Hero and Villian should be able to exist in a virtual world and interact with each other, just like in WoW.

     

    Well, I'm not aginst having heroes and villains in the game and able to interact with each other, I just don't think it should be done like it is in wow.   You have to have separate pve content for villains than you do for heroes, which is a huge issue for me.   That's why I think having villains be PVP specific characters would work well.  You can have lots of interaction between heroes and villains without significant PVE content for villains. 

    ~~~ Currently Playing ~~~
    LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.

    Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.

  • ScalebaneScalebane Member UncommonPosts: 1,883

    I do hope they allow villians at launch, it would give them more subs i think as some people only love to play the bad guy.  (yes i know i'm late to this topic but i just got to thinking about it today )

    image

    "The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
    - Lewis Thomas

  • DouhkDouhk Member Posts: 1,019

    Hmm...

    well, they might, though I'm not too sure. I always played the hero to begin with simply because I enjoyed the classes and environments more on the CoH side. I'm thinking that when we make our heroes and our nemesis', they'll have us have something to do with our nemesis'. It COULD end up being really neat if they do something like I think they could do with this type of system.

    I would like it if, somehow, our heroes and our nemesis' were seperate characters yet connected to one another... it's difficult to explain. Sort of like you would play through the story of your hero and then you could play the story of your arch-nemesis, and vice-versa if you want to play the villain. If either your hero or arch nemesis evolved, so would the other. I would REALLY enjoy something like this.

    image If only SW:TOR could be this epic...

  • DouhkDouhk Member Posts: 1,019
    Originally posted by redcap036
     Maybe it won't be a push button A to be a Hero or press B to be a Villain, hopefully they might just make it that the player determine thru his actions, costume and style of name what they want to become and maybe moral's.



     

    I would KILL for a feature in an MMO such as this one suggested. Maybe not choice of costume or name, but through actions within the game eventually determining your allegiance and your "moral" actions. That would make my day, if only this was true.

    image If only SW:TOR could be this epic...

  • azuredinazuredin Member UncommonPosts: 35

      I used to play Champion pnp a long long time ago, so anyone who currently still owns the game can add to this, or correct me if I'm wrong...but....as I remember it, you could create a character so that right off the bat it wasn't good OR evil, it was your "reputation" that determined how the world saw you. So, if you gained enough "good" reputation, your "evil" character would slowly be turning public opinion of you to a more neutral stance, and you could even go "good". Depends on how you played it.  The reputation is what determined if when you showed up on the street, the local cops came to try to arrest you, or they called in the Army, or a "SuperGroup" (good or evil) that has it out for you!

      I hope they adopt some of this into the gameplay, then good or evil is based solely on how YOU play the character...kill innocent civilians, destroy too much public property with little to know gain....that would probably satisfy most folks that you are too destructive and they don't want you around. You may actually have to think a little before you picked up that bus full of school kids and used it to crush that "weevil guy" without any repurcussions from the public (unless you are going evil of course).

      In the real comics, heroes had to be keenly aware of how the public viewed them. Hopefully they add some of this to this game...

       Cheers!   Azure

         

  • NeoDodgeNeoDodge Member UncommonPosts: 42

    Well, I'd say in PnP it's all a matter of what the GM and the players want to play.

  • ManchineManchine Member UncommonPosts: 469

    I would prefer both at the start.  I don't really know which one I would play more though.  I don't even know which one I would start to play.

     

    On CoH/V I prefer Villains because everything is done so much better over there.  Missions are made better and no taking 20 minutes to get to the missions.  (I know its not quite so bad anymore in CoH.)

    image

  • CavadusCavadus Member UncommonPosts: 707
    Originally posted by Wrymstrum

    Originally posted by Deathliche


    You seem to be pretty vague as to why it won't work in a Super Hero MMORPG.  I believe it can be done.

     

    I didn't say it wouldn't work at all, I just said that it wouldn't work like it does in WOW.  And I wasn't vague. 

     

    With the exception of a few low level instances, all of the main content in WOW is the same for the horde and the alliance.  Blizzard doesn't create raids for the horde and separate raids for the Alliance.  You could do heroes and villains in an MMO, but because the nature of the factions is much more different than in games like WOW you'd have to much more separate content for those factions.  So you have to make sacrifices in order to do heroes and villains that you don't have to do for horde and alliance in WOW. 

    Also it's just easier to do content for heroes.  Heroes are reactive.  The bag guy is out there, you go foil his plot and kick his butt.  Fairly simple to do.  It's much harder to do villain content right without making the villains be total lackeys for some super villain.  

     

    You hit the nail on the head and basically brought up the largest failure of City of Villains: the content is grossly inappropriate for villains.  Seriously, in CoV all you do is get played and used by more powerful super villains and most of the missions could just as easily be hero missions. 

    Villains are much, much, much more complex than heroes and creating appropriate content is apparently quite difficult (for Cryptic and NCSoft at least).

    I still play CoV and there has never been one moment where I felt like a villain or even did anything truly villainous though I guess a case could be made for mayhem missions (where you rob a bank).

    image

  • SanguiniaSanguinia Member Posts: 235

    It is MUCH easier to come up with a campaign for heroes than it is for villains. It just is. Villains are more likely to turn on each other than team up. That's why when they DO team up it's a big deal. [in the comics!]

    What Happened With SWG Went Down YEARS AGO! Please Try To Stop Whining About It In Every Thread I Read. Mourn It, And Finally MOVE ON With Your Lives! Thanks A Heap.

  • pamkhatpamkhat Lord of the Rings Online CorrespondentMember UncommonPosts: 39

    I have CoH/CoV and I never play a hero.  IDK, but I have 12 characters and they're all villains.  Last I heard, CO included the nemesis system where you created a nemesis at creation with your champion.  Then you'd fight said nemesis and play you champion at different times.  There wasn't a lot of detail about this.  It always made me wonder why I'd want to play my own nemesis because I'd just foil my champion's plans, hehe.

    I write things for the Examiner as the MMO Examiner.

  • EkibiogamiEkibiogami Member UncommonPosts: 2,154
    Originally posted by sepher


    The problem with adding them later though is the population imbalance issues that CoX never managed to overcome; even though Villains, despite how similar the content, is actually kind of better in terms of quality.



     

    It wasent Overcome Because the Villans side was never as well built as the Hero's Side. I preffer to play the villans in CoX But the story, World, and missions. Just arnt up to par with the Heros side. If they were a Mirror Quality wise then the pop imballance would not be Nearrly as wide as it is.

    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
    —Samuel Adams

  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449
    Originally posted by lkavadas

    Originally posted by Wrymstrum

    Originally posted by Deathliche


    You seem to be pretty vague as to why it won't work in a Super Hero MMORPG.  I believe it can be done.

     

    I didn't say it wouldn't work at all, I just said that it wouldn't work like it does in WOW.  And I wasn't vague. 

     

    With the exception of a few low level instances, all of the main content in WOW is the same for the horde and the alliance.  Blizzard doesn't create raids for the horde and separate raids for the Alliance.  You could do heroes and villains in an MMO, but because the nature of the factions is much more different than in games like WOW you'd have to much more separate content for those factions.  So you have to make sacrifices in order to do heroes and villains that you don't have to do for horde and alliance in WOW. 

    Also it's just easier to do content for heroes.  Heroes are reactive.  The bag guy is out there, you go foil his plot and kick his butt.  Fairly simple to do.  It's much harder to do villain content right without making the villains be total lackeys for some super villain.  

     

    You hit the nail on the head and basically brought up the largest failure of City of Villains: the content is grossly inappropriate for villains.  Seriously, in CoV all you do is get played and used by more powerful super villains and most of the missions could just as easily be hero missions. 

    Villains are much, much, much more complex than heroes and creating appropriate content is apparently quite difficult (for Cryptic and NCSoft at least).

    I still play CoV and there has never been one moment where I felt like a villain or even did anything truly villainous though I guess a case could be made for mayhem missions (where you rob a bank).



     

    so, you've never "recovered" the sex slave of mr. bocor?

    never dropped off the plague canisters which cause outbreak (which in turn is where the hero tutorial takes place)?

    there's the mayhem missions like you mentioned, but there's also missions to rob banks and even casinos.

    there's a number of missions where you go against heroes and/or hero groups.

     

    but i agree, there are far too many missions where it's villain on villain action.  i hate to say it, because it sounds like a cop-out from the devs --- but i hope the mission architect turns out to be a very robust system and THEN maybe we'll see some villainous missions.

     

    me, i'm looking more for the lex luthor/doctor doom "take over the world* type scheming.

    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by Wrymstrum


    Honestly I'm pretty skeptical about including villains.  I think making COV was a big mistake, and if they would have focused on COH they could have a much better product.  CoV was basically a copy of COH with an evil theme.  Such a waste of resources. 
    If an MMO has just one faction (i.e. heroes) then the developers have a lot more freedom to develop great pve content for that faction. 
    But I suppose there could be creative ways to do villains that wouldn't detract from the pve content.  Maybe it would be something where after your hero hits the level cap you can unlock a villain for PVP and some specific villain content, but the main game would be hero PVE content.

     

    I do agree that CoV felt like a bad rippof from the first game. However if they include it from the start they can still make it good, it is fun sometimes to be bad.

    If they won't incluse villains then my money go to DCU instead, who doesn't want to play one of the Jokers main henchmen? DCU will be tough competition because Gotham city will be perfect setting for an MMO.

    But of course that is a good thing, Champions will probably be better since they won't be the only one around.

    What I didn't like in CoX was that the city looked boring and to many quests were crappy. It didn't really feel alive. But hopefully will Champions (and DCu for that matter) fix those 2 things.

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