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Why so many MMOs encourage player masochism...
UbinusCol
Member Posts: 30
I think that too many MMOs nowadays stress that all of the good stuff - the meat of the MMO, the point at which one would begin to have fun playing the game - comes in the end, and that it's "worth it" to stick around and try to level a character up to the level cap. Very few MMOs actually offer something exciting when it comes to progression.
Take WOW, for example, which I recently dropped after trying it for about 3-4 weeks. While the game has a lot going for it, it ultimately doesn't respect the low-level, struggling newbie. By this, I mean that I found the progression through the first 22 levels pretty dull; VERY repetitive quests, grind, and some instancing. And that's pretty much it. After realizing that I am bored by the game, I decided to drop it.
Now, many people would ask me, "You're judging a game after playing only for a couple of weeks? After getting to level 22? You don't know anything about it!" Well, maybe I haven't gotten up to level 70 to experience the "fun" parts, but to me, getting there (or at least attempting to) was, well, painful. So why shouldn't I simply stop? Why should I endure the climb of boredom just to get to the top and only THEN begin to play?
This ruins the idea of an MMO being a game by definition (i.e. fun and engaging). A good game provides excitement and interest along the way rather than save it all until the end for the ones who are "devoted" and "patient". A good game hails the beginner, and guides him or her to greater glory.
For this reason, I think that most MMOs (especially the Asian grinders 
) select for a gamer population that likes to endure and struggle through boredom just to get to that high point. I'm not saying that games should be easy or constantly have trivial rewards: In a game, one ought to be rewarded for progress and patience. But one also should be given a better glimpse of the "fun" that's ahead.
So many people drop games after being bored for 2, 3, 4 months, or even longer, simply because they keep hoping that the game will become fun again soon, only to sometimes be disappointed. I don't think that this kind of outlook is healthy or right.
Any thoughts? 
Comments
Yes and it's to make you play.
I'm going to create a new topic and see if anyone wants to rank them, and linke discussion to yours.
that is exacly why we need skill box based sandbox MMORPGs where you can actually do something worthwhile the whole time.
UO/SWG(pre-pub-9) those are the kind of games that alow you to do something at all times.
hell even in EVE online you are not useless at low levels, (granted you are used as bait most of the time
)
but you can also serve as a miner aid, you can carry ore from place A to B, you can do many things before you are actually battle worthy.
the ONLY game MMO i found was fun to level up was LOTRO. hell the 14 days was so much fun that i bought the game and subbed after the 3rd day. it is still level based but i joined with a RL friend, (that might have some part to play into it.) other than that all the upcomming games i see are grind to reach the cap then grind to be the best.
sure it takes skill and organization to down a raid boss, but it takes far more skill to have a full all out war between to player factions and loosing the war might mean loosing more than you can afford, but hey who cares, you had fun getting there in the first place. so why not start again and this time make it better.
Everyone enjoys complaining about it but what are you suggesting to put in place of it? Don't mistake this for asking you what you "think" is a perfect MMO either. I just want to know what you plan to substitute the 1 to 69 content with?
What if everyone started at level 70? Everyone would be on an equal playing field aside from gear differences. If gear didn't exist you may as well be looking to play an FPS game that just happens to be on a much larger battlefield. The combat in an FPS is vastly superior in design to the majority of the MMO's out there.
Some people don't enjoy MMO's because of the combat or gameplay. They do it because they have friends that do it. They do it for the social interaction and enjoyment of accomplishing something with others. It makes the gameplay somewhat easy to overlook and as long as it isn't very tedious or annoying than it will satisify most players. These are your social casual gamers - combat is almost irrelevant.
Than another style of gamer which has a high expectations for game balance, a lot of difficult content, quality graphics and gameplay. They are much more picky about what type of game they play as well. For example, some do not like levels or classes that limit abilities (WoW for example) and would rather just have a selection of skills to choose from to define their characters and not be forced into a heavily instanced/questline, such as UO. These are the achievers and "powergamers" with a competitive spirit. They want to do everything you can do and get everything you can get. They also probably enjoy PvPing or racing to be the first (acquire gear or being the first to do anything).
I would think the mass majority are a mix between these two types - some favor one more than the other and some completetly reject one type. I would have to say, the first type seems to have the most fun and usually the most fun to be around. Although, the second type tends to be more successful to some degree.
Anyway, I just got back to LOTRO yesterday! WOOT! I created a Lore-master, and already it's more fun in the first 5 levels.
I'd say Guild Wars is pretty fun in this respect, except that some people don't consider it an MMO. IDK, I do...
Not all games are like this. Just because "WoW did it", doesn't mean that's the way it is. In fact, it's one of the biggest flaws of WoW, among other blatant stupidity.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
I'd say that the low level cap in Guild Wars has its advantages. Maybe you don't start at level 20, but it doesn't take a long time to get there. One could add more role-playing elements and have things like titles serve a more practical purpose (rather than just give bragging rights). These chances would please both the social casual gamers and the powergamers that you mentioned, IMO.
I'd also put in a more seamless environment, something like what LOTRO has. LOTRO's balancing of instances and integrated environments would also be good (as it has more instances than typical MMOs but also has the integration that defines* what an MMO is).
*using this term carefully
You do know of course that you are typecasting yourself squarely into the instant gratification corner. Players like you need to go play FPS games, MMO's are just not your style.
The problem with MMO's today, they are starting to listen to all the whiners who want everything now.
An excellent example is Funcom's recently released AoC. They made leveling far to easy so that literally anyone could zoom to high level, just fast to satisfy the instant gratification crowd, only it backfired on them, since they have all these high level players now with little to do.
I agree that to many games are simply a grind to the end game
The only problem I have with this thread is it seems to be more of people trying to interject some sort of science into an opinion post I played wow from launch quit back around october or so and in december played lotro there is so little difference between those two games people were accusing me of being a gm I got my toons so high level it really plays almost the exact same and I'd actually say LOTRO is much less casual friendly because other than the stories you won't do much in a group without friends basically I'm saying there is very little difference between LOTRO and WOW only difference seems to be that some played wow without friends and got bored where as in lotro you were with friends and had fun I don't think this is indicitive of any problems with the genre just that you don't have ready made friends in each and every game you play
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
But isn't that technically the player's fault? The players are the ones with this deluded competition to the level cap. Myself, I only have ONE level 70 in WoW and it took me close to a year to get there. I barely even have half of my primary and secondary professions at max (enchanting, skinning first aid etc.) Why? because I bothered to take my time, and if other players were levelling faster than I was... so what? I'm the one enjoying the view along the way.
To the OP: Maybe you should try and give WoW another shot and play the game PROPERLY, and by that I mean, take your damn time! Don't worry so damn much about levelling, enjoy the view! I'm sure that if you bothered to take your time, you'll find lots of interesting stuff/quests that you missed the first time.
I disagree, simply because I enjoy playing MMOs (at least the few good ones that I found, such as GW and LOTRO, that didn't give the aftertaste of intense grind and boredom after I played them). If MMOs were not my style, I obviously eventually wouldn't like them, now would I?
Unless of course you define MMOs to be the types of games that HAVE to involve indefinite grind, all for the sake of that "someday", when you actually start to like it. In that case, I don't like these "MMOs" of yours. Also, you're typecasting yourself into the corner of...well, a masochist (no offense BTW
).
I say people shouldn't have to be infinitely tolerant of the boredom that is bestowed by many of the MMOs out there today. I say developers should think outside the box more. Good games are GAMES, not JOBS or CHORES. Games are meant to offer avenues for relaxation, thrill, and yes, some personal advancement (be it material "in-game" wealth, skill, experience, or any combination of the above), regardless of how long one has been playing for.
Opinion =|= truth.
I would never play a "instant max level" MMO, simply because i already did, and the amount of stupidity found is the biggest found in any game.
Also, what is the point of that exactaly? So you remove the leveling, what is the reason to play then? Get better gear/skills/whatever. Ok, isnt that a 'diferent' grind? What next? Remove everything you have to "work" for?
Ok... i see, a game, where there is no levels, no gear, no classes, no quests... because, it's all a grind, isnt it?
In basic terms, the perfect game is a giant, graphical, chat client.
And i know people are diferent, but i get to lvl 60s+ in around 1 week game play, get to 20 in 24-32 hours (real time, not played), i dont see why WoW, one of the easiest leveling games, has taken you 3-4 weeks to reach lvl 22. It's quite impressive, really. Even if you played only in weekends, it's still too long for any average player. Altought i wont be adding anything to the discussion, but i think the problem is you, not the game.
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I'd say that the low level cap in Guild Wars has its advantages. Maybe you don't start at level 20, but it doesn't take a long time to get there. One could add more role-playing elements and have things like titles serve a more practical purpose (rather than just give bragging rights). These chances would please both the social casual gamers and the powergamers that you mentioned, IMO.
I'd also put in a more seamless environment, something like what LOTRO has. LOTRO's balancing of instances and integrated environments would also be good (as it has more instances than typical MMOs but also has the integration that defines* what an MMO is).
*using this term carefully
Your comments are very vague. I don't see how roleplaying elements and additional titles would please casual gamers or powergamers. Honestly, the ideas are very vague but regardless I doubt it would make a difference. Powergamers don't tend to roleplay (not to say they don't exist, just unlikely) nor do they want any title that isn't bragging rights. : )
Roleplayers can be casual gamers and I would think they have very similar qualities to a casual gamer. They are more of a group and goal oriented type of person that relies heavily on a different types of social interaction and the game itself is just a small bonus to help immersion. Atleast, I think that is how they see it.
Regardless, roleplaying elements and titles would really only be unique to roleplaying types. Which to my suprise, I don't find much of in the majority of the MMO games I play. I suppose it would be one of those things you have to go out of your way to find. Very unusal though for a genre called MMO"RPG". : )
Also, Guild Wars is hardly a traditional MMORPG because of the amount of instances it supports. I think it fails the test because it isn't capable of holding X amount of players in one area. To make it easier, they just instance the same area until it can hold all the players. Aside from that, they have a much stronger focus on PvP and balance whilst having a much smaller focus on PvE and it is heavily instanced in all regards (to PvP/PvE). I suppose what you are suggesting is that all MMORPG's completely scrap grinding?
You do understand what the grind is, no? The grind is essentially an MMORPG's gameplay when it has become too repetitive or more specifically, the combat has become too repetitive. You're continually doing mindless repetition because MMORPG's combat is very much..mindless. So, you see, the real problem (if what you have stated is true) isn't the grind but the combat has gone numb. Unfortunately, that isn't even the main problem with the grind. The main problem with the grind in most games is when you don't care so much about the goal at the end of it. Most people felt that nothing would be proved, substantiated, added or subtracted by continuing on an adventure which they had not truly asked for.
You should try a bit harder to find out what it really is that you dislike. It might make it easier to indentify what you would need to change.
If WOW is dull and boring in the begining, what MMO isn't? So many different starter areas and places to explore. Its all new. If thats not fun, MMOs are't for you. Reading the quests helps you know, kind of like an RPG. I can see a movie being dull also is you only listen to it without watching. WOW is about as good as it gets in the begining, unless FUN is being stuck in a game with no instructions, no clue what to do and no direction where to go. All the power to ya if you enjoy that=)
there is a difference between "having to grind to max levels to play the game" or play the game while you level to max".
also when no one wants to talk to you if you are 30 or less? wtf... (and no, i was not begging i was merely asking if x city was to the north or to the south of this village)
i did get one answer from a lvl 55, "go away f**** noob" so unless you are in a guild (which most of the time you need to be lvl 60+) you will play solo. so much for an MMO, for that i play oblivion and not get monthly charges.
as for you to get to lvl 20 in 24-32 hours. thats prety much what some of us do, weekends 2 hours a day thats 16 hours per month , that sounds about right lvl 20 in 16-20 hours...(thats still 4 weeks), and that of just stupid meaningless grind. no fun in that... now if you did something fun while leveling up he would actually be getting his money's worth for that month.
GuildWars lets you do storyline, easy pickup groups for missions that dont last 6 billion hours, so you can play 30-60 minutes at a time without having to let down your group or if you have
LOTRO, even though there is a grind, i dont know why but it does not feel like a grind since you are actually playing a storyline/questing with others. no aftertaste like someone earlier mentrioned.
instant gratification? dont start with that. WoW is based on instant gratification. thats how it makes you always want more and you keep going back for more. they put more gear, you get it after a short while you play with it then what, they put NEW gear, you get it you play it then what, rince repeat. guildwars you get max lvl max gear instantly (pvpchar) what makes the difference is how smart you are, how organized the team you have, what skills you use, skills on how to build your template, (a bit like magic:the gathering but instead of having to build a 64+card deck you build a 8 skill bar out of hundreds of available skills) and to push it even further when it comes to GVG ladder, 8 skill bar x 8 players to make the 8 man team winner.
so gaming should not be about the gear, it should be on HOW you play. and time will be a factor in how good you are, but not a determining factor.
a GuildWars player that has been playing since launch and has all the skills at his disposal might be stupid and use a heal and bash skill bar, as a newb mesmer might think and get some interups and damage skills, the warrior cant heal since he hets interupted and cant hit either and takes incredible amounts of damage.
again any MMO should be HOW you play the game, and not with what items you play with.
P.S. in guildwars even though the cap is at 20, you will still see a difference between a player that just got there and the player whos been playing since launch by how he looks. what you would consider high end armour in a regular MMO is used more as a cosmetic item in GW . (with the same values as the regular but you will look like a bad ass) some armour styles are much harder to get than others. and are really expensive. so when you see someone in say FoW armour you look and say whoa he actually did that. (there is your work for something)
i had the same problem. when i played wow, the first 25 lvls got me irritated. i kept dying, takes a long time to kill something, and the exp was slow. but i gotta tell u, when i got to lvl 30+, thats when i acutally had fun. exploring the world, interesting quests, etc. but the best thing about wow is the end-game. end-game is so important because its what keeps people playing. but i get what u mean, the way to lvl 70 or whatever the lvl cap is should be a game itself. which, imo, wow had, idk maybe u were just impatient or intolerant?
Requiem: Bloodymare plays quite a bit like wow and a little less than the "korean grinders" out there. its new but its coming along nicely, in a few months itll be great. but they still lack end-game content.
i come from Ultima online, then SWG (pre-Cu) , then EVE. if you go to WoW after playing those games you will realize that getting to lvl 70 is just time consuming and irritating since its just rince repeat process that you can do without ever adressing word to anyone. (and if you do or try, you get either "go away noob" or no response at all)
Well.
About wow.
I agree with you, it took me 9 months to get to lvl 70.
But at 70 the real grinding begins.
You grind gold, honor, arena points etc, which get very uber mega boring after a week, which isnt enough to get even the minimum gear for decent pvp.
Youll need to invest weeks if not even a month to get S1 (now actually S2) pvp armor.
The best in WoW, is to make a character and level paralelly with an irl friend, and just sabber about the cool skills at lvl, 30, 40 , 50 and so on
At least thats what I'm doing.
Or did, now that I feel it boring too, after getting a shaman to 53, I quit wow (forgot to end my sunscription so i paid a month for nothin g>.<) and now im looking forward to Diablo 3 and Warhammer online and other stuff thats coming out.
MMORPG @ R.I.P :: 1997-2003
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I currently play both WoW and Lotro, and I am glad that the OP returned to LotrO. It is a great game. The starter quests do not feel like an mmo, but more of an interactive storyline. Also, the game itself is great for those who are in no hurry to reach the level cap. There are plenty of wonderful sights and secrets to see and uncover, and when I play, I do not feel like I am in some mad rush to reach the level cap. I hate it in a game when you join a group and it's like a mad dash through each instance. You get a quest, but cannot read what it is about, as the rest of the party are already running off.
I don't seem to get that with Lotro - so good choice OP.
I am glad to see posts like these because then i know i am not alone on this topic.What is worse is most of a game's long standing players will defend there game based on end game.Even when topics come up from noob players asking what class is best or what class they should play,it is ALWAYS vets telling them about end game.
If end game is all that matters then why should devs even bother to make a game,just make some instances and everyone is the same level ...gg..have fun.IMO end game is the lowest point of a game because you are no longer striving for anything.Players that raid are really achieving nothing because there new found loot is good for what?to go back and kill lowbie mobs and feel like a god?or to go back in and raid again on the exact same mobs over and over?pfft waste of time,the meat of any game is it's main levels ,after that if it was fun,then go back and re roll another job/class and enjoy the game from a different perspective.
A game like EQ2 did one thing right in there expansions.They added new lowbie zones so that on your next go around you can experience the game from a different perspective and enjoy new mobs/scenery/quests doing it.Most games like my beloved FFXI concentrate solely on end game or high end cocntent,because for some reasons players like to feel important hanging out on there end level players instead of going back in and enjoying the game again.It tells me that the players didn't really find the game that fun if they only want to hang on there end game levels.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
as you get higher levels, those "kill 5 pigs" becomes "kill 20 pigs" and then "kill 50 pigs/ogres/mutant bats"
you pretty much got the jist of the game. if you gave it 3-4 weeks, that was a fair shake. versus someone playing a game for say, an hour, then going "hey, here's my impressions of the game", as if anyone would care what you thought about a game after an hour.
but that's what trial periods are for -- to see if the game IS fun. for you.
wow could've been great fun; but it's got the grindmeisters of the world working on it -- pardo and kaplan.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
the first couple of paragraphs of your post are exactly what i wonder -- if "end game" is what the game is about; then, why are they wasting my time with all these lower levels i have to go through? if my fun DOESN'T start till 'end game'; then, why must i endure boring garbage?
although, grinding the same dungeon a bunch of times, in order to get 'geared up' for the next dungeon, so that i can grind THAT dungeon a bunch of times--that's not my idea of fun. at all. ever.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I don't why mmorpgs even have levels because theres other types of advancement in character development than levels. SWG had a system where you just unlocked new abilities and items made your stats better instead of levels, i remember doing all the content back then, however with levels once you're past the level cap the rest of the world is useless. UO had a system where the more you did something the better you get at it which is kool too and I just don't get why we can't change our appearence once in game for most mmorpgs because you don't stay the same forever and maybe you want a makeover or a haircut.
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Talking about SWG much?
My experience with Wow was good for the most part. I started to play just before the Burning Crusade expansion. I no longer play it because it's not fun for me anymore, not because of the actual state of the game, but because I wanted to play something different. I also tried other MMO released not long ago and cancelled my subscription in less than a month.
That been said, I don't think MMOs encourage masochism. I believe each person is a different world. If they are playing a game, then it's because they like something about it that keep them playing, even if there are things they don't like about it. For example, I like PvE more than PvP. Others will like PvP or RP