Originally posted by nariusseldon LOL .. you have no idea what instancing is for. It is not about whether the server can support a lot of people, it is about no more camping with other people. It is a big advance and WOW shows that it is working great. I won't play a game that i have to wait in line to kill the boss.
It's about avoiding other players? The whole purpose of an MMO, by definition a game that is massively multiplayer, is to play and interact with other players!!!!
IMO instancing is simply a shortcut. It's too time consuming, difficult and risky to make a rules and gameplay system that actually works so instead they redesign things to simply avoid the problem. Why worry about designing a mob/loot system that doesn't cause lines or why spend the time and effort making a fair PvP system that allows the players to handle it when you can simply separate the players and avoid the situation entirely? It's just so much faster, easier and cheaper. It's also why I don't subscribe to any MMORPGs anymore.
Don't get me wrong, I don't really have a problem with instancing in itself. It's how they use it as a shortcut and in turn reduce the quality of the overall game that I don't like. They are taking the easy route rather than the better route. Instead of coming up with gameplay mechanics and rules that actually work for a variety of situations they are using instances to simply avoid the problem entirely. That's fine except I'm not going to buy your game and pay a monthly fee in order to play alone. I want to play with the other players. I want to interact with them. I like running into people in dungeons or while running around aimlessly in the wilderness. These are the reasons I play an MMORPG because these are the only things an MMORPG can provide that a regular game cannot.
Developers and publishers seem to have forgotten this. They are trying to make MMORPGs more like simple and easy single player games and avoid the complications that occur when you put so many people together. They need to remember that large complex games with lots of player interaction are the basis for such games and why people play them.
Personally I can't think of a single positive aspect of instancing. It's just plain boring and a short cut to cater to care bear whiners who are too weak/passive to grab what they want in a true, open MMO world. Everyone has the exact same chance to get the boss kill, or whatever. You lost it to the other group? Well Boo-Hoo? I guess you just didn't cut it. Maybe it's time to stop whining and actually PRACTICE, instead of expecting to get everything served on an instanced silver plate. I'm totally against the idea that being unskilled and generally sucky should be rewarded in games. I'm not saying I wont play a game that has instances, but it IS a huge turn off. Bleh.
That is the most stupid reasoning I have read.
First, if you play EQ, you know that you ROTATE, and waiting in line for boss kill. So how are you going to practice being patient?
Secondly, it is a freaking GAME. It is entertainment. If i want challenge, I go to work. And guess what, the marketing is NOT listening to drivels like this. Thank GOD that instance has become the norm.
If I want instancing ill go play diablo, M M O RPG hard to get into the RPG when your loading constanlty whats wrong dont ya like doors that open?? im not an instance fan, Guild Wars is the game that really comes to mind.. its like a single player game that you can chat to other people..
Instancing is fine in some games, and in some it doesnt work. Just like everything else.
Take wow, before the expansion after i hit 60, I was in ironforge or an instance, the open world was useless and just made travel time longer. I also did the world raids which were always fun when ya have lil kids running and messing it up for ya. So if wow cant get it right how do you expect a self funded AA title to do it?
Im not saying that either is better im saying that neither is better. Every game is different. There is nothing wrong with loading screens unless your getting killed while loading (thx again wow).
No thanks, I don't want to sit waiting for a boss mob to spawn and 500 other groups waiting for the same boss mob.
(edit)
I'll add that overly instanced (Guild Wars and especially age of conan) are even worse than having to wait for 500 other groups...I much prefer WoW's way of instancing, I really dislike AoC's instancing.
I fully agree that WoW's take was excellent. Private instances in moderation are the only way to do large scale stuff like Molten Core in WoW. But what gripes me is where the entire world is separated with instances simply as a developer shortcut. In WoW, you could start at the bottom of the continent and walk to the other side.
I also want to add that graphics are not an excuse. Network load and client side graphics are totally different.
Obviously, some of you missed the first year of EverQuest. Specifically, the last couple of months prior to the release of the Kunark expansion. For upper level characters (level cap was 50 at the time) there were only a few places to go, and most of those were raid areas. The only substantial dungeon of the time was Lower Guk. It got so crowded in there that you could quite literally walk (not run) from one end of the dungeon to the other without seeing a single mob. A given hallway would have three groups camping it; two at each end, and one at the middle. Yes, they were camping a single mob. Two or three groups sharing individual rooms, each also camping an individual spawn. This went on for two or three months, when thankfully SOE launched the Kunark expansion, and the mass migration out of Lower Guk happened immediately. I'll take instancing, thanks. As an old pen and paper D&D player, I enjoy the feeling that we're the only people in a dungeon. I don't want to meet other people in a dungeon. That kills the immersion for me. I'll see you all in the taverns.
What you fail to realize is that this is not an issue with instancing vs not instancing, this is an issue with poor game design. Not having enough dungeons or mobs to fill them is a game design issue. The solution is to have more dungeons, more mobs and harder mobs along with other forms of play such as crafting, trading and so on. A well designed game has enough places to go and enough things to kill or do that such camping problems aren't an issue because they don't exist.
Obviously, some of you missed the first year of EverQuest. Specifically, the last couple of months prior to the release of the Kunark expansion. For upper level characters (level cap was 50 at the time) there were only a few places to go, and most of those were raid areas. The only substantial dungeon of the time was Lower Guk. It got so crowded in there that you could quite literally walk (not run) from one end of the dungeon to the other without seeing a single mob. A given hallway would have three groups camping it; two at each end, and one at the middle. Yes, they were camping a single mob. Two or three groups sharing individual rooms, each also camping an individual spawn. This went on for two or three months, when thankfully SOE launched the Kunark expansion, and the mass migration out of Lower Guk happened immediately. I'll take instancing, thanks. As an old pen and paper D&D player, I enjoy the feeling that we're the only people in a dungeon. I don't want to meet other people in a dungeon. That kills the immersion for me. I'll see you all in the taverns.
What you fail to realize is that this is not an issue with instancing vs not instancing, this is an issue with poor game design. Not having enough dungeons or mobs to fill them is a game design issue. The solution is to have more dungeons, more mobs and harder mobs along with other forms of play such as crafting, trading and so on. A well designed game has enough places to go and enough things to kill or do that such camping problems aren't an issue because they don't exist.
Well, i don't see how it is possible to implement, without instances, special boss encounters with stage events. And those are a lot more fun than 50 copies of the same mob standing there for you to kill.
Instances I believe are and will continue to be a blessing to mmorpgs for ever until they invent another thing that can prevent mob and boss camping, provide an enjoyable time in special story driven events, allow you to play a dungeon without having to wait hours or days in a ingame queu line, prevents areas to be wiped clean of monsters by a group of players that decided to farm in that area and you need to kill the mob for a special item.
When the feature Instanced was created for mmos, all of the above anarchistic behaviors were resolved quickly.
I think that Instanced, when implemented correctly safes a game from being ruined not the other way around.
Personally I can't think of a single positive aspect of instancing. It's just plain boring and a short cut to cater to care bear whiners who are too weak/passive to grab what they want in a true, open MMO world. Everyone has the exact same chance to get the boss kill, or whatever. You lost it to the other group? Well Boo-Hoo? I guess you just didn't cut it. Maybe it's time to stop whining and actually PRACTICE, instead of expecting to get everything served on an instanced silver plate. I'm totally against the idea that being unskilled and generally sucky should be rewarded in games. I'm not saying I wont play a game that has instances, but it IS a huge turn off. Bleh.
That is the most stupid reasoning I have read.
First, if you play EQ, you know that you ROTATE, and waiting in line for boss kill. So how are you going to practice being patient?
Secondly, it is a freaking GAME. It is entertainment. If i want challenge, I go to work. And guess what, the marketing is NOT listening to drivels like this. Thank GOD that instance has become the norm.
Oh yes, thank GOD that instances, among other horrors, have become the norm, so that we nowadays don't have a single decent MMO on the market. I'm fully aware that the market doesn't listen to people like me, because we argue for challenging games with immersion and longevity, not instant gratification which has sadly also become the norm of MMO's. I'm fully aware that I'm fighting a losing battle. I've been doing that since every kiddo got an internet connection at home and began to destroy all that's sacred to a true RPG'er (and gamer in general, just look at what happened to Counter-Strike after ppl outside of universities started to get access to the internet...). I'm a very old school kind of RPG'er/Gamer and I hate instant gratification with a passion, and thats what instances really are all about, IMHO. Being 100% guaranteed success only because you paid for the game. I just cannot fathom how anyone above 15 years of age can have FUN in a game like that.
First off, don't give me that BS about how instancing is a must for servers. 1997 UO had a massive, seamless world supporting just as many players as current MMOs. Yeah, nineteen ninety fucking seven. Now, developers have realized a short-cut that we're all too stupid to fight against....instancing. This short-cut has ruined what would have been great MMOs. _____________________ Age of Conan: Hyped to hell then dumbed down for the Xbox 360. The worst, however, is that fact that every zone has multiple copies, on multiple servers. Way to break up a massively multiplayer game, right? Why have servers then? If every zone is broken up, why have separate servers? It makes no sense. Epic siege battles? Laff. Instancing ruined this game. Pirates of the Burning Sea: This game could have been amazing. Imagine sailing the seas and docking at ports for trade, or conquering if wanted. Explore the many islands of the Caribbean? Sorry. The reality is that you enjoy one big loading screen of small environments. Everything is instanced. Missions, sea battles, ports.... All separated by loading screens. You cant walk around islands, your boat... anything.
_____________________
It's sad when games plummet and the devs sit and pick their noses wondering what went wrong.
Both those games could have been big open world sandboxes and would still have bombed due to their developers incompetence and idiocy. Instancing never had a chance to kill those games.
Instances I believe are and will continue to be a blessing to mmorpgs for ever until they invent another thing that can prevent mob and boss camping, provide an enjoyable time in special story driven events, allow you to play a dungeon without having to wait hours or days in a ingame queu line, prevents areas to be wiped clean of monsters by a group of players that decided to farm in that area and you need to kill the mob for a special item.
When the feature Instanced was created for mmos, all of the above anarchistic behaviors were resolved quickly.
I think that Instanced, when implemented correctly safes a game from being ruined not the other way around.
Mob and boss camping is easily preventable. Back in EverQuest they made Lady Vox (a dragon) only killable by a certain level range of people. If you were too high level you would be teleported instantly out of her lair. So, when you kill a boss you should recieve a debuff that doesn't allow to go close to said boss for a certain amount of time (1-5 days).
Originally posted by Flex1 Instances I believe are and will continue to be a blessing to mmorpgs for ever until they invent another thing that can prevent mob and boss camping, provide an enjoyable time in special story driven events, allow you to play a dungeon without having to wait hours or days in a ingame queu line, prevents areas to be wiped clean of monsters by a group of players that decided to farm in that area and you need to kill the mob for a special item.
When the feature Instanced was created for mmos, all of the above anarchistic behaviors were resolved quickly.
I think that Instanced, when implemented correctly safes a game from being ruined not the other way around.
Instancing may a good thing for a linear, level and item based mmorpg, where it is all about who got the biggest epix.
It is clear that you only played EQ and WoW.
greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Oh yes, thank GOD that instances, among other horrors, have become the norm, so that we nowadays don't have a single decent MMO on the market. I'm fully aware that the market doesn't listen to people like me, because we argue for challenging games with immersion and longevity, not instant gratification which has sadly also become the norm of MMO's. I'm fully aware that I'm fighting a losing battle. I've been doing that since every kiddo got an internet connection at home and began to destroy all that's sacred to a true RPG'er (and gamer in general, just look at what happened to Counter-Strike after ppl outside of universities started to get access to the internet...). I'm a very old school kind of RPG'er/Gamer and I hate instant gratification with a passion, and thats what instances really are all about, IMHO. Being 100% guaranteed success only because you paid for the game. I just cannot fathom how anyone above 15 years of age can have FUN in a game like that.
Hahahaha, ok you win points for funniest "Old Man" rant... Seriously you sound like you want people to have to enter their IQ and Age to get an internet connection and screw them if either aren't high enough.
Yeah open dungeons were such fun, Morons walking around on their own training people, crappy groups training people, arseholes training people for fun or because they want your spot, lazy groups following you down so they don't have to clear anything and then leapfrogging you to steal nameds, 1 hour + long sessions off senseless killing because the nameds refuse to pop or the ever popular everything worth killing is camped...
Also what "instant gratification"? Cause last time I looked instances don't just hand you the loot on entry.
Or "100% guaranteed success" what are you smoking? Seriously what in the hell are you talking about?
Your entire senile rant makes little sense.
The Last instance I was in took over an hour, dropped only 1 bit of loot anyone in the group needed and 1 bit of loot that someone in the guild might need, the couple of other good items were No-Trade and are now vendor/god/transmuting fodder and the rest was rubbish and is now fodder.
I fail to see the "instant gratification" or "100% guaranteed success".
Personally I can't think of a single positive aspect of instancing. It's just plain boring and a short cut to cater to care bear whiners who are too weak/passive to grab what they want in a true, open MMO world. Everyone has the exact same chance to get the boss kill, or whatever. You lost it to the other group? Well Boo-Hoo? I guess you just didn't cut it. Maybe it's time to stop whining and actually PRACTICE, instead of expecting to get everything served on an instanced silver plate. I'm totally against the idea that being unskilled and generally sucky should be rewarded in games. I'm not saying I wont play a game that has instances, but it IS a huge turn off. Bleh.
So either master the game or go play something else... not much of a "community" attitude there. Of course, the other option is basically get abused, lose out on good content, items and fun then eventually quit the game. Maybe that's not a 3rd option so much as an extended 2nd option?
Secondly, it is a freaking GAME. It is entertainment. If i want challenge, I go to work. And guess what, the marketing is NOT listening to drivels like this. Thank GOD that instance has become the norm.
I LOVE this response! It says it all man... "If I want a challenge I'll go to work" Very well said. Perhaps the people who like to sneak around, mine nodes under people's noses and steal there loot, and think this is challenging should quit their care bear job (or GET a job first, then quit it) and get a real job, something challenging, engaging and more fulfilling than burger-flipping or table bussing. Gee, I hope I didn't offend anyone with my care bear comment.
Personally I can't think of a single positive aspect of instancing. It's just plain boring and a short cut to cater to care bear whiners who are too weak/passive to grab what they want in a true, open MMO world. Everyone has the exact same chance to get the boss kill, or whatever. You lost it to the other group? Well Boo-Hoo? I guess you just didn't cut it. Maybe it's time to stop whining and actually PRACTICE, instead of expecting to get everything served on an instanced silver plate. I'm totally against the idea that being unskilled and generally sucky should be rewarded in games. I'm not saying I wont play a game that has instances, but it IS a huge turn off. Bleh.
That is the most stupid reasoning I have read.
First, if you play EQ, you know that you ROTATE, and waiting in line for boss kill. So how are you going to practice being patient?
Secondly, it is a freaking GAME. It is entertainment. If i want challenge, I go to work. And guess what, the marketing is NOT listening to drivels like this. Thank GOD that instance has become the norm.
Oh yes, thank GOD that instances, among other horrors, have become the norm, so that we nowadays don't have a single decent MMO on the market. I'm fully aware that the market doesn't listen to people like me, because we argue for challenging games with immersion and longevity, not instant gratification which has sadly also become the norm of MMO's. I'm fully aware that I'm fighting a losing battle. I've been doing that since every kiddo got an internet connection at home and began to destroy all that's sacred to a true RPG'er (and gamer in general, just look at what happened to Counter-Strike after ppl outside of universities started to get access to the internet...). I'm a very old school kind of RPG'er/Gamer and I hate instant gratification with a passion, and thats what instances really are all about, IMHO. Being 100% guaranteed success only because you paid for the game. I just cannot fathom how anyone above 15 years of age can have FUN in a game like that.
This is some amazingly incoherent nonsense. I'm guessing you never really got far with Everquest's glorious non-instanced dungeons. If you had, you would know that there were fifty major drawbacks for every one good thing about them. But yeah, maybe you experienced EQ's launch as a learned adult at the ripe old age of nineteen. I hope the "kiddies" didn't ruin it for you. As for modern stuff, I don't need to guess that you know absolutely nothing about the raid content in today's MMO's. Here's a hint. The only thing you need to fight, wizened sage, is the urge to shove that cocaine up into your nose. I'm really scared for you if you came to these conclusions while clean.
100% guaranteed success, right. Instant gratification. Man. True RPG'er is my favorite. True RPG'er. The sole arbiter of "RPG'ing". I wasn't aware that RPG could be used as a verb, but I'm not a wizened old man like you. Y'know, I just realized that I can pull these terms out of my ass too, and just like you, I can apply them with zero context. That way, nobody would know what I'm talking about, either. Here, let me try.
If there's one thing I love in life, it's a good burger. I don't mean the crappy fast food stuff. I mean a gourmet burger with 100% guaranteed success sauce and freshly sliced instant gratification. Of course, as a true RPG'er, I recognize that a good burger starts with a good, lean cut of immersion and longevity. Most people don't want that nowadays, though, which makes me weep on forums. Now that every kiddy has a George Foreman internet connection in their bedroom, they've begun to destroy all that is sacred in the world. Only one man can save us now. Superman. Superburgerman.
The Instance vs Open world debate is and always will be ongoing. Maybe someone should create a game - Instance Wars. One side has only instances and the other side open world. They all meet in one area and compete in PvP for some uber objective and rewards. Then the bragging rights can be justified to some degree.
It comes down to marketing and game preference. Game devs want to increase and sustain subscribers. They know that players have a choice in playing MMOs now. They aren't saddled with UO or Everquest or Meridian 59 anymore. MMO veterans either have an established group /guild they play with already so they generally like the open world design. They don't have to worry about building relationships in general. What about the huge popularity of console gamers? They heard about WoW and signed on in drovs. They loved the causal game style and want to keep it that way. They lose interest rapidly when content is not there because a host of other players have farmed it dry. Why pay for a game when you can't play it? Hardcore gamers say this is part of the design of MMOs and it should be endured chalking it up as "challenge". Developers receiving feedback soon learned that waiting in line like a grocery store for a specific monster which drops a coveted item once in a few weeks is not fun.
Instances help give players the ability to play the game on their terms. Can it be overdone? Heck yes. Waiting for loading screens is not fun either. Especially when you are simply going into a tavern or apartment or changing your feat tree!
I agree with the OP. I am pro-instance. Admittedly I can find fun in both, but if given a choice I would choose little to no instancing.
If the MMO is that good, they will provide enough content, mobs, and just plain "things to do" other than be bottle-necked into a linear questline that every class, race, and faction MUST do.
I like the open feeling. I like running into random people adventuring. Being benevolent. watching other players and groups. Maybe learn something from their strategy.
Yes, I like trains. heh. I like natural "hangouts" , like outside of a castle zone or just inside.
Wait,..am I an ol'school EQ fanboy? I guess so. I love the new games too but I guess it IS instancing that makes it all feel that much more different. Oh and the stupid quest bubbles above npc's heads,..lets not go there,.weeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Did you ever think that the graphics of UO didn't put as much of a stress on the '97 technology as compared to games today? Granted those computers were less powerful but are the computers today exponentially more powerful compared to what is needed to render everything?
No, because servers don't deal with graphics. At all.
The OP is 100% right.
To this day I maintain that the Darkness Falls dungeon in DAOC was the best dungeon ever made in an MMO. It wasn't instanced, supported all levels of PVE from level 20-50, raid PVE, and solo/group/raid PVP, all in a single dungeon. It was amazing.
Personally I can't think of a single positive aspect of instancing. It's just plain boring and a short cut to cater to care bear whiners who are too weak/passive to grab what they want in a true, open MMO world. Everyone has the exact same chance to get the boss kill, or whatever. You lost it to the other group? Well Boo-Hoo? I guess you just didn't cut it. Maybe it's time to stop whining and actually PRACTICE, instead of expecting to get everything served on an instanced silver plate. I'm totally against the idea that being unskilled and generally sucky should be rewarded in games. I'm not saying I wont play a game that has instances, but it IS a huge turn off. Bleh.
Here's another way to think about it. Your way, I have to compete against my fellow gamers to complete a quest. That's fine, if that's the kind of game you want.
However, for me, I'd prefer to cooperate with my fellow gamers to complete a quest.
Two very different approaches, but neither one is necessarily wrong.
For myself, I'd rather have every specific kill quest instanced, and the rest not. And people, what's with all the name-calling. Ya really gotta watch the 'you-don't-think-like-I-do-so-you're-an-idiot' attitudes.
Personally I can't think of a single positive aspect of instancing. It's just plain boring and a short cut to cater to care bear whiners who are too weak/passive to grab what they want in a true, open MMO world. Everyone has the exact same chance to get the boss kill, or whatever. You lost it to the other group? Well Boo-Hoo? I guess you just didn't cut it. Maybe it's time to stop whining and actually PRACTICE, instead of expecting to get everything served on an instanced silver plate. I'm totally against the idea that being unskilled and generally sucky should be rewarded in games. I'm not saying I wont play a game that has instances, but it IS a huge turn off. Bleh.
Here's another way to think about it. Your way, I have to compete against my fellow gamers to complete a quest. That's fine, if that's the kind of game you want.
However, for me, I'd prefer to cooperate with my fellow gamers to complete a quest.
Two very different approaches, but neither one is necessarily wrong.
For myself, I'd rather have every specific kill quest instanced, and the rest not. And people, what's with all the name-calling. Ya really gotta watch the 'you-don't-think-like-I-do-so-you're-an-idiot' attitudes.
I'm sorry if I've been calling names, I just get a little worked up when I think about how low online gaming has sunk. I think that goes for a lot of older gamers who have seen their favourite games go down the drain. I know a lot of people don't agree in the least but that's fine. I'm not calling WoW players idiots, I just don't think WoW-like games are a good representation of what role playing is.
I'm in no way against cooperation in games. I just have a kind of role-playing view on how games should work, ie I don't want them to be cooperative by default. I want to be able to do anything I feel like (and live with the consequences), and I want others to be able to stop me, and vice versa. For me, that's a core part of a RPG. That's why instancing is such a problem for me. If you take RPG out of MMORPG, then I have no problem with instancing. (But I guess you'd have to take M out as well). Then you'd be left with a game like DDO, which I think is a fantastic and fun game, but it's not massive, and it's not a role playing game. It's an online, multiplayer, cooperative dungeon crawler game.
Did you ever think that the graphics of UO didn't put as much of a stress on the '97 technology as compared to games today? Granted those computers were less powerful but are the computers today exponentially more powerful compared to what is needed to render everything?
No, because servers don't deal with graphics. At all.
The OP is 100% right.
To this day I maintain that the Darkness Falls dungeon in DAOC was the best dungeon ever made in an MMO. It wasn't instanced, supported all levels of PVE from level 20-50, raid PVE, and solo/group/raid PVP, all in a single dungeon. It was amazing.
I prefered the PvP servers in WOW where every single zone was Darkness Falls. No neeed to shoehorn everyone into one dungeon to PvP. You do know the reason they made DF was to make it easier to find a fight, right?
I personally prefer open worlds but I also prefer games that do not force me to raid for gear. when I came into this genre, I expected fully open worlds where my friends and I could roam the world together in the same zone full of other people. We did not expect entire towns to be 'instanced'.
I do not think something like a Town should be instanced if anyway possible I'd like to see MMOs avoid that
I like open world dungeons. You get to run into other players in the dungeon, which makes the world seem alive, and players can help each otehr, like rez a party that is wiped, and you can recruit new party members in the dungeon, without leaving an instance. On the other hand, I want the boss mob instanced, so I don't have to camp it or wait in line to kill it.
agree but I'd much rather make it so everyone present can help kill the Boss and then share the loot (roll, whatever). That would be truly massive multiplayer too me. WAR has the right idea with "public quests" I would say
Comments
It's about avoiding other players? The whole purpose of an MMO, by definition a game that is massively multiplayer, is to play and interact with other players!!!!
IMO instancing is simply a shortcut. It's too time consuming, difficult and risky to make a rules and gameplay system that actually works so instead they redesign things to simply avoid the problem. Why worry about designing a mob/loot system that doesn't cause lines or why spend the time and effort making a fair PvP system that allows the players to handle it when you can simply separate the players and avoid the situation entirely? It's just so much faster, easier and cheaper. It's also why I don't subscribe to any MMORPGs anymore.
Don't get me wrong, I don't really have a problem with instancing in itself. It's how they use it as a shortcut and in turn reduce the quality of the overall game that I don't like. They are taking the easy route rather than the better route. Instead of coming up with gameplay mechanics and rules that actually work for a variety of situations they are using instances to simply avoid the problem entirely. That's fine except I'm not going to buy your game and pay a monthly fee in order to play alone. I want to play with the other players. I want to interact with them. I like running into people in dungeons or while running around aimlessly in the wilderness. These are the reasons I play an MMORPG because these are the only things an MMORPG can provide that a regular game cannot.
Developers and publishers seem to have forgotten this. They are trying to make MMORPGs more like simple and easy single player games and avoid the complications that occur when you put so many people together. They need to remember that large complex games with lots of player interaction are the basis for such games and why people play them.
That is the most stupid reasoning I have read.
First, if you play EQ, you know that you ROTATE, and waiting in line for boss kill. So how are you going to practice being patient?
Secondly, it is a freaking GAME. It is entertainment. If i want challenge, I go to work. And guess what, the marketing is NOT listening to drivels like this. Thank GOD that instance has become the norm.
If I want instancing ill go play diablo, M M O RPG hard to get into the RPG when your loading constanlty whats wrong dont ya like doors that open?? im not an instance fan, Guild Wars is the game that really comes to mind.. its like a single player game that you can chat to other people..
Instancing is fine in some games, and in some it doesnt work. Just like everything else.
Take wow, before the expansion after i hit 60, I was in ironforge or an instance, the open world was useless and just made travel time longer. I also did the world raids which were always fun when ya have lil kids running and messing it up for ya. So if wow cant get it right how do you expect a self funded AA title to do it?
Im not saying that either is better im saying that neither is better. Every game is different. There is nothing wrong with loading screens unless your getting killed while loading (thx again wow).
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
I fully agree that WoW's take was excellent. Private instances in moderation are the only way to do large scale stuff like Molten Core in WoW. But what gripes me is where the entire world is separated with instances simply as a developer shortcut. In WoW, you could start at the bottom of the continent and walk to the other side.
I also want to add that graphics are not an excuse. Network load and client side graphics are totally different.
-------------------------
What you fail to realize is that this is not an issue with instancing vs not instancing, this is an issue with poor game design. Not having enough dungeons or mobs to fill them is a game design issue. The solution is to have more dungeons, more mobs and harder mobs along with other forms of play such as crafting, trading and so on. A well designed game has enough places to go and enough things to kill or do that such camping problems aren't an issue because they don't exist.
What you fail to realize is that this is not an issue with instancing vs not instancing, this is an issue with poor game design. Not having enough dungeons or mobs to fill them is a game design issue. The solution is to have more dungeons, more mobs and harder mobs along with other forms of play such as crafting, trading and so on. A well designed game has enough places to go and enough things to kill or do that such camping problems aren't an issue because they don't exist.
Well, i don't see how it is possible to implement, without instances, special boss encounters with stage events. And those are a lot more fun than 50 copies of the same mob standing there for you to kill.
Instances I believe are and will continue to be a blessing to mmorpgs for ever until they invent another thing that can prevent mob and boss camping, provide an enjoyable time in special story driven events, allow you to play a dungeon without having to wait hours or days in a ingame queu line, prevents areas to be wiped clean of monsters by a group of players that decided to farm in that area and you need to kill the mob for a special item.
When the feature Instanced was created for mmos, all of the above anarchistic behaviors were resolved quickly.
I think that Instanced, when implemented correctly safes a game from being ruined not the other way around.
That is the most stupid reasoning I have read.
First, if you play EQ, you know that you ROTATE, and waiting in line for boss kill. So how are you going to practice being patient?
Secondly, it is a freaking GAME. It is entertainment. If i want challenge, I go to work. And guess what, the marketing is NOT listening to drivels like this. Thank GOD that instance has become the norm.
Oh yes, thank GOD that instances, among other horrors, have become the norm, so that we nowadays don't have a single decent MMO on the market. I'm fully aware that the market doesn't listen to people like me, because we argue for challenging games with immersion and longevity, not instant gratification which has sadly also become the norm of MMO's. I'm fully aware that I'm fighting a losing battle. I've been doing that since every kiddo got an internet connection at home and began to destroy all that's sacred to a true RPG'er (and gamer in general, just look at what happened to Counter-Strike after ppl outside of universities started to get access to the internet...). I'm a very old school kind of RPG'er/Gamer and I hate instant gratification with a passion, and thats what instances really are all about, IMHO. Being 100% guaranteed success only because you paid for the game. I just cannot fathom how anyone above 15 years of age can have FUN in a game like that.
Both those games could have been big open world sandboxes and would still have bombed due to their developers incompetence and idiocy. Instancing never had a chance to kill those games.
Mob and boss camping is easily preventable. Back in EverQuest they made Lady Vox (a dragon) only killable by a certain level range of people. If you were too high level you would be teleported instantly out of her lair. So, when you kill a boss you should recieve a debuff that doesn't allow to go close to said boss for a certain amount of time (1-5 days).
But ya instancing is easier.
Instancing may a good thing for a linear, level and item based mmorpg, where it is all about who got the biggest epix.
It is clear that you only played EQ and WoW.
greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Oh yes, thank GOD that instances, among other horrors, have become the norm, so that we nowadays don't have a single decent MMO on the market. I'm fully aware that the market doesn't listen to people like me, because we argue for challenging games with immersion and longevity, not instant gratification which has sadly also become the norm of MMO's. I'm fully aware that I'm fighting a losing battle. I've been doing that since every kiddo got an internet connection at home and began to destroy all that's sacred to a true RPG'er (and gamer in general, just look at what happened to Counter-Strike after ppl outside of universities started to get access to the internet...). I'm a very old school kind of RPG'er/Gamer and I hate instant gratification with a passion, and thats what instances really are all about, IMHO. Being 100% guaranteed success only because you paid for the game. I just cannot fathom how anyone above 15 years of age can have FUN in a game like that.
Hahahaha, ok you win points for funniest "Old Man" rant... Seriously you sound like you want people to have to enter their IQ and Age to get an internet connection and screw them if either aren't high enough.
Yeah open dungeons were such fun, Morons walking around on their own training people, crappy groups training people, arseholes training people for fun or because they want your spot, lazy groups following you down so they don't have to clear anything and then leapfrogging you to steal nameds, 1 hour + long sessions off senseless killing because the nameds refuse to pop or the ever popular everything worth killing is camped...
Also what "instant gratification"? Cause last time I looked instances don't just hand you the loot on entry.
Or "100% guaranteed success" what are you smoking? Seriously what in the hell are you talking about?
Your entire senile rant makes little sense.
The Last instance I was in took over an hour, dropped only 1 bit of loot anyone in the group needed and 1 bit of loot that someone in the guild might need, the couple of other good items were No-Trade and are now vendor/god/transmuting fodder and the rest was rubbish and is now fodder.
I fail to see the "instant gratification" or "100% guaranteed success".
So either master the game or go play something else... not much of a "community" attitude there. Of course, the other option is basically get abused, lose out on good content, items and fun then eventually quit the game. Maybe that's not a 3rd option so much as an extended 2nd option?
I LOVE this response! It says it all man... "If I want a challenge I'll go to work" Very well said. Perhaps the people who like to sneak around, mine nodes under people's noses and steal there loot, and think this is challenging should quit their care bear job (or GET a job first, then quit it) and get a real job, something challenging, engaging and more fulfilling than burger-flipping or table bussing. Gee, I hope I didn't offend anyone with my care bear comment.
"Laugh it up Bullwinkle!"
That is the most stupid reasoning I have read.
First, if you play EQ, you know that you ROTATE, and waiting in line for boss kill. So how are you going to practice being patient?
Secondly, it is a freaking GAME. It is entertainment. If i want challenge, I go to work. And guess what, the marketing is NOT listening to drivels like this. Thank GOD that instance has become the norm.
Oh yes, thank GOD that instances, among other horrors, have become the norm, so that we nowadays don't have a single decent MMO on the market. I'm fully aware that the market doesn't listen to people like me, because we argue for challenging games with immersion and longevity, not instant gratification which has sadly also become the norm of MMO's. I'm fully aware that I'm fighting a losing battle. I've been doing that since every kiddo got an internet connection at home and began to destroy all that's sacred to a true RPG'er (and gamer in general, just look at what happened to Counter-Strike after ppl outside of universities started to get access to the internet...). I'm a very old school kind of RPG'er/Gamer and I hate instant gratification with a passion, and thats what instances really are all about, IMHO. Being 100% guaranteed success only because you paid for the game. I just cannot fathom how anyone above 15 years of age can have FUN in a game like that.
This is some amazingly incoherent nonsense. I'm guessing you never really got far with Everquest's glorious non-instanced dungeons. If you had, you would know that there were fifty major drawbacks for every one good thing about them. But yeah, maybe you experienced EQ's launch as a learned adult at the ripe old age of nineteen. I hope the "kiddies" didn't ruin it for you. As for modern stuff, I don't need to guess that you know absolutely nothing about the raid content in today's MMO's. Here's a hint. The only thing you need to fight, wizened sage, is the urge to shove that cocaine up into your nose. I'm really scared for you if you came to these conclusions while clean.
100% guaranteed success, right. Instant gratification. Man. True RPG'er is my favorite. True RPG'er. The sole arbiter of "RPG'ing". I wasn't aware that RPG could be used as a verb, but I'm not a wizened old man like you. Y'know, I just realized that I can pull these terms out of my ass too, and just like you, I can apply them with zero context. That way, nobody would know what I'm talking about, either. Here, let me try.
If there's one thing I love in life, it's a good burger. I don't mean the crappy fast food stuff. I mean a gourmet burger with 100% guaranteed success sauce and freshly sliced instant gratification. Of course, as a true RPG'er, I recognize that a good burger starts with a good, lean cut of immersion and longevity. Most people don't want that nowadays, though, which makes me weep on forums. Now that every kiddy has a George Foreman internet connection in their bedroom, they've begun to destroy all that is sacred in the world. Only one man can save us now. Superman. Superburgerman.
The Instance vs Open world debate is and always will be ongoing. Maybe someone should create a game - Instance Wars. One side has only instances and the other side open world. They all meet in one area and compete in PvP for some uber objective and rewards. Then the bragging rights can be justified to some degree.
It comes down to marketing and game preference. Game devs want to increase and sustain subscribers. They know that players have a choice in playing MMOs now. They aren't saddled with UO or Everquest or Meridian 59 anymore. MMO veterans either have an established group /guild they play with already so they generally like the open world design. They don't have to worry about building relationships in general. What about the huge popularity of console gamers? They heard about WoW and signed on in drovs. They loved the causal game style and want to keep it that way. They lose interest rapidly when content is not there because a host of other players have farmed it dry. Why pay for a game when you can't play it? Hardcore gamers say this is part of the design of MMOs and it should be endured chalking it up as "challenge". Developers receiving feedback soon learned that waiting in line like a grocery store for a specific monster which drops a coveted item once in a few weeks is not fun.
Instances help give players the ability to play the game on their terms. Can it be overdone? Heck yes. Waiting for loading screens is not fun either. Especially when you are simply going into a tavern or apartment or changing your feat tree!
Modern MMOs suck in so many aspects that it's even boring to write about it. Instancing being one of the big issues yes.
I agree with the OP. I am pro-instance. Admittedly I can find fun in both, but if given a choice I would choose little to no instancing.
If the MMO is that good, they will provide enough content, mobs, and just plain "things to do" other than be bottle-necked into a linear questline that every class, race, and faction MUST do.
I like the open feeling. I like running into random people adventuring. Being benevolent. watching other players and groups. Maybe learn something from their strategy.
Yes, I like trains. heh. I like natural "hangouts" , like outside of a castle zone or just inside.
Wait,..am I an ol'school EQ fanboy? I guess so. I love the new games too but I guess it IS instancing that makes it all feel that much more different. Oh and the stupid quest bubbles above npc's heads,..lets not go there,.weeeeeeeeeeeeee!
No, because servers don't deal with graphics. At all.
The OP is 100% right.
To this day I maintain that the Darkness Falls dungeon in DAOC was the best dungeon ever made in an MMO. It wasn't instanced, supported all levels of PVE from level 20-50, raid PVE, and solo/group/raid PVP, all in a single dungeon. It was amazing.
Here's another way to think about it. Your way, I have to compete against my fellow gamers to complete a quest. That's fine, if that's the kind of game you want.
However, for me, I'd prefer to cooperate with my fellow gamers to complete a quest.
Two very different approaches, but neither one is necessarily wrong.
For myself, I'd rather have every specific kill quest instanced, and the rest not. And people, what's with all the name-calling. Ya really gotta watch the 'you-don't-think-like-I-do-so-you're-an-idiot' attitudes.
Here's another way to think about it. Your way, I have to compete against my fellow gamers to complete a quest. That's fine, if that's the kind of game you want.
However, for me, I'd prefer to cooperate with my fellow gamers to complete a quest.
Two very different approaches, but neither one is necessarily wrong.
For myself, I'd rather have every specific kill quest instanced, and the rest not. And people, what's with all the name-calling. Ya really gotta watch the 'you-don't-think-like-I-do-so-you're-an-idiot' attitudes.
I'm sorry if I've been calling names, I just get a little worked up when I think about how low online gaming has sunk. I think that goes for a lot of older gamers who have seen their favourite games go down the drain. I know a lot of people don't agree in the least but that's fine. I'm not calling WoW players idiots, I just don't think WoW-like games are a good representation of what role playing is.
I'm in no way against cooperation in games. I just have a kind of role-playing view on how games should work, ie I don't want them to be cooperative by default. I want to be able to do anything I feel like (and live with the consequences), and I want others to be able to stop me, and vice versa. For me, that's a core part of a RPG. That's why instancing is such a problem for me. If you take RPG out of MMORPG, then I have no problem with instancing. (But I guess you'd have to take M out as well). Then you'd be left with a game like DDO, which I think is a fantastic and fun game, but it's not massive, and it's not a role playing game. It's an online, multiplayer, cooperative dungeon crawler game.
No, because servers don't deal with graphics. At all.
The OP is 100% right.
To this day I maintain that the Darkness Falls dungeon in DAOC was the best dungeon ever made in an MMO. It wasn't instanced, supported all levels of PVE from level 20-50, raid PVE, and solo/group/raid PVP, all in a single dungeon. It was amazing.
I prefered the PvP servers in WOW where every single zone was Darkness Falls. No neeed to shoehorn everyone into one dungeon to PvP. You do know the reason they made DF was to make it easier to find a fight, right?
I personally prefer open worlds but I also prefer games that do not force me to raid for gear. when I came into this genre, I expected fully open worlds where my friends and I could roam the world together in the same zone full of other people. We did not expect entire towns to be 'instanced'.
I do not think something like a Town should be instanced if anyway possible I'd like to see MMOs avoid that
agree but I'd much rather make it so everyone present can help kill the Boss and then share the loot (roll, whatever). That would be truly massive multiplayer too me. WAR has the right idea with "public quests" I would say