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The biggest issue in mmos, classes
GrayPixie
Member Posts: 16
Why does every mmo that releases now thinks that in order to be successful you need to have classes? It is just stupid; classes limit customizability and cause you to reroll when you decide that you don’t want to play that class anymore. If you don’t want to reroll you will just quit the game all together and I doubt developers want that. It limits pvp to a rock paper scissors match. Take pvp in WoW for example if you play a warrior and see a mage it doesn’t matter if you have more skill and better gear you will still lose just because the class is made to kill you. And if the classes aren’t fair at release (they never are) the developers have to take time to nerf some classes and buff others, time that could be used to add more content to the game. I think Oblivion and Morrowind are perfect examples on how a no class game can work. If you don’t like the way you built your character you can just use a different type of weapon/armor/magic. You should make your own destiny instead have the developers hold your hand the entire game.
/end rant
Comments
Ultima online, best mmorpg i've played, held my interest at least 2 years longer then WoW
UO and EVE are the only mmo's that I know that don't have classes. Neither one has been a market faliure.
Isn't it amazing that what is so apparent to anyone with half a brain hasn't been realized by the big corporations?
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
No problem with classes but I hate levels because they make all the content in the world below your level completly useless and make it so youc an't play with friends at different levels from the get go. Games like EVE and SWG (pre cu) however you can/could and that's what I really loved about them.
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Talking about SWG much?
i dont mind classes too much. i think however things need to be changed. an option to do some quests to change your class (FFXI had something like that) or simply adding more stuff to classes (to make them more varied) would be a welcome change.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
It really surprises me that the people who say "Why won't somebody make a skill based MMORPG?" when the answer to that is quite obvious.
I mean, did you never wonder WHY MMORPG's became so popular AFTER the skill system was thrown away?
The reason why so many mmorpg development companies are using a class system over a skill system is because it's more accessible. Having so many skills to advance makes the game unnecessary complicated for both the player and the developer. Balancing a skill system is a lot harder than balancing classes because you have to take a nearly unlimited amount of possibilities into consideration, and players are going to be confused what stat to raise, how to raise them and how to build an effective character. Too many choices is like having no choice, which is why the system was abandoned, and just look at which MMORPG's are the most popular: It's not the skill based ones, thats for sure.
Classes are not an issue in current games, they would actually suck more if they weren't class based. (edit: from referance to the ops post).
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Mabinogi doesn't have classes.
For example, you can be a magic wielding swordsman.
Go play Mabinogi.
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/RZetlin
Anyone glancing at it looking for a skill based game and is willing to pay a monthly fee will just shrug that game off.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I agree
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
Alas, these are the very reasons why so many of us are at this site, waiting for something. People don't want to have to think anymore. They don't want to learn something new. They don't want to research how to be the best. The masses want instant gratification, spoonfed, optionless game play. What accompanies this style of game play is sheer boredom. While these companies chase the masses of "normal" people that don't want to have to work or spend time for anything, the true gamers are sitting around, looking at what we have to play, and are very very bored. There are only a few games that are outside of the box currently, and Eve being the best example of a very successful outside the box game.
Skill systems aren't complicated. They take a little thought and research, testing and building to understand. Do the masses want to do these things to play a game? No. But a lot of true gamers do. Frankly, I won't be upset if a game is made for the gamers.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
To start I have to say that I like skill based games better than class based ones because you can be more flexible with the way you play the game. A big reason why MMOs go with class based setups because they encourage grouping more since not one person can do everything.
My ideal MMO would be a class/skill hybrid sort of like SWG when it was released because you could pick different skill trees from most of the professions. The big problem with that setup was all the Flavor of the Month profession combos that were sort of overpowered in PvP. It didn't bother me that much but it did for a lot of other people.
Class based games wouldn't be that bad if you had more choices within that class when speccing. This is why I like Guild Wars so much because you can choose from two classes and you can change things up a bit. For example, even though you're an Elementalist, you don't have to just stick to nuking (although groups expect it from you) you can also be a backup healer or do melee damage with a warrior, assasin, or dervish secondary (again groups normally wouldn't expect or want you to do this but if your soloing who cares).
Alas, these are the very reasons why so many of us are at this site, waiting for something. People don't want to have to think anymore. They don't want to learn something new. They don't want to research how to be the best. The masses want instant gratification, spoonfed, optionless game play. What accompanies this style of game play is sheer boredom. While these companies chase the masses of "normal" people that don't want to have to work or spend time for anything, the true gamers are sitting around, looking at what we have to play, and are very very bored. There are only a few games that are outside of the box currently, and Eve being the best example of a very successful outside the box game.
Skill systems aren't complicated. They take a little thought and research, testing and building to understand. Do the masses want to do these things to play a game? No. But a lot of true gamers do. Frankly, I won't be upset if a game is made for the gamers.
I think that's pretty arrogant. Essentially, whoever doesn't agree with what you consider to be superior is stupid.
Quite frankly you all are masses in some way or another. What movies are you watching? Mussic? Do any of you even read? Art?
I bet if we were to peer into your life we might see some sort of entertainment of the masses. Heck, even video games are still low brow entertainment.
People want to be able to connect with something. Sometimes that has nothing to do with complexity and has everything to do with simplicity. If you were to look into my life you would find stuff that would make your head spin. You would also find stuff that you could easily ridicule me for hours of ridiculing fun. And probably rightly so.
There are whole philosophies of thought that revolve around that concept.
Just becuase there is complexity in a game doesn't mean it's successful.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You all know that class based games don't have to be like they are. D&D uses a class system where you can combine any amount of classes for an exp penalty. Devs just choose to stick with this system because as you say it's easier and encourages grouping.
I believe the class systems in a lot of games does hurt the gameplay. But from a developer viewpoint, it's easier to deal with. Instead of having a near infinite amount of combinations to worry about, the developer has very good knowledge of what to expect in each section of the game. Therefore they can better plan the obstacles for the players and make sure a certain type of character doesn't have an unfair advantage.
That being said though, I'm in favor of a less class reliant system. Entropia Universe is a good example of this. All of the skills are there and available to people, you essentially pick up and play how you want to play. If you want to be a swordsman, you use your sword and gain experience in that, if you want to use laser rifles, pick one up and start training it. It also allows you to have, in a way, more than one character, on the same character. If you feel like doing something different, just do it.
Games like The Elderscrolls series (Daggerfall-Morrowind-Oblivion) are a bit more structured, but work on the same idea. If you want to do it, you can, you just need to train in it. The difference here is that you will have some limitations based on your 'class'. Because of your class, your skill with something wont be quite as high as your main, class related abilities.
Alas, these are the very reasons why so many of us are at this site, waiting for something. People don't want to have to think anymore. They don't want to learn something new. They don't want to research how to be the best. The masses want instant gratification, spoonfed, optionless game play. What accompanies this style of game play is sheer boredom. While these companies chase the masses of "normal" people that don't want to have to work or spend time for anything, the true gamers are sitting around, looking at what we have to play, and are very very bored. There are only a few games that are outside of the box currently, and Eve being the best example of a very successful outside the box game.
Skill systems aren't complicated. They take a little thought and research, testing and building to understand. Do the masses want to do these things to play a game? No. But a lot of true gamers do. Frankly, I won't be upset if a game is made for the gamers.
write up a completely detail system with all of the math behind it and let us tear into it.
Classes = good, levels = bad.
There have been classes in fantasy games for many years...... By having classes it allows players a chance to play a role (ie RPG) by using the skills of that class......If I can play every role with one character why would I need other people?? Wouldnt you be able to heal, DPS, tank, CC, etc all by yourself??
City of Heroes and City of Villians is really nice with the hole level thing, you still earn levels but if you want to do a high level mission and your only level 30 not 49-50 you can because all you need is a level 50 to invite you as a sidekick which allows you to be one level underneath him. Now I haven't played CoH/CoV in over a year so if they don't have the sidekick/exemplar options i'm sorry:( but I highly doubt they would take something like that out:)
You also have a huge variety of choices when it comes to how you choose your characters powers. You do have to choose a class but when you level you get to choose your powers. really all the classes do is allow people to have their stats fitted to their play style.
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(names used in previous games)
-Desitre -Desiboy -Verra -Auroras Borealis -Scaven
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looking forward to...
Bioware's MMORPG
Stargate
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MMORPGs did not become big after abandoning the sandbox. A single MMO, WoW, became big because it was user-friendly, easy to learn, almost bug-free, and could run on nearly any computer made after 1999. No other MMORPG released before or after could make even half of those claims or anything even approaching those sub numbers. The remaining large MMO games were mostly released during the sandbox phase, specifically the Lineage games and FFXI. The biggest complaint behind the two largest sandbox games, UO and SWG, were the number of bugs in the game this being especially true for SWG. Age of Conan is doing well so far but that can be attributed to the fact that its been one of the most advertised MMO's to hit the market. And its current success is marred by the buggy, unfinished state the game was launched in, getting rather panned by reviewers and gamers.
The only other major MMORPG to do a sandbox is EVE Online which is anything but unpopular. It in fact enjoys the most unique position on the entire market, being the only MMO out there I know of that doesn't follow the usual spiking graph of subs and instead has had a gradual growth ever since its launch. The main reason why I see most saying that they do NOT play the game is because it is entirely spaceship based with no controlable avatar or ground-game.
The success of WoW has nothing to do with levels, classes, or raids. I'm afraid that you, like the worthlessly clueless business majors that run the industry, couldn't be more wrong. If levels, classes, and quest-based advancement was all game needed to be good then the other MMORPGs out there would have sub number comparable to WoW.
They do not.
http://mmo-hell.blogspot.com/
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/rejad
Thats exactly what this industry needs right now. An open sandbox game like EVE but your not stuck in a ship all day. I'm putting my bet on Earthrise.
The Brave Do Not Fear The Grave
The game Developers don't give a Sh** what the few Hardcore Gamers want.. THEY JUST WANT MONEY. If making a SImple Game that Attracts thousands of jack***es that just want to be Cocky and get up the the Highest Level to Jerk Off later, then they Will. They're not goin to Stop the Income for the Few Hardcore gamers that want something new. Especially if that Something New will cost more Money and Time.
To be Honest, I've almost hated EVERY MMORPG I've played, Which consists of WoW, GW, CoH/CoV, and thousands of Server MMO's that just aren't what a real Gamer wants.
I liked Silkroad though, Just the Grinding (Which was all the game really was) and the SLOW A** LEVELING mix was pure BS.
DOMO is Good with the Multiclass but the PvP is Bull, And tons of 5yr "LF GF!!" (Girlfriend.. Not Good Fight, Lulz).
Currently playing Cabal (Add me on Venus Server, btw. IGN: Trypi.. Plenty of Hate for us all) and I'm only level 13.. Leveling's not too Bad, Hoping at a higher level the PVP gets great. They could of worked on the Game Engine a little more so it's not so Choppy. The Worst part about it though is the Fu**in Arrogant as Shi** players.
Point being: Developers want Money, They're goin for what brings more People in.. Which sadly is the Jacka** next Door. More of them.. Which means more Money.
Diablo 3 better be Good. (For all you BS'in about it, Stfu and Gtfo my Interwebs)
I disagree with this. You can play a role without having pre-defined classes. You want to be a healer? Take some healing skills. You want to be a swordsman? Take some skills in swordsmanship. Want to be a paladin? Then mix those two together with whatever else is available. And for the other part, most systems have a limit to what you can do. So you can either be really good at something, or mediocre at everything.
Look up Darkfall, I'm pretty sure you'll be pleased
Class systems do not imply you have re-roll to be another class; WoW is not the end-all and be-all of class systems. It is possible to have a class system where you can do multiple classes on one character. See FFXI for a class system where it is not only possible to do multiple classes on one character, it is more or less required.