i think WoW will have around 2 years after WoTLK of high gameplay numbers but it will decline after that, the story is over - there's no more to add unless the make up bullsh*t just to keep it going like they did with arena's and honor gear
Emerald dream...the Maelstrom...and some other places not in game yet...
It doesn't suck. We're just bored of it and many of us who are bored of it have nothing else to play (and no lives to speak of), so we just complain about the game and hope it will change to our liking. Fat chance, that.
Doesnt the fact that there needs to be a list of reasons why WoW doesnt suck mean that it sucks? Who is this trying to convince i wonder?
No it doesn't. It means it's a response to the thread "Short list of reasons why WoW sucks". That' is the reason for this thread. This thread doesn't exist because it needs to, it exists because that other thread exists. Nothing more.
It's not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just got tired of seeing people come into the WoW forums and bash the game in that thread and thought maybe there should be a thread for those of us that like that game where we could post our opinions. Apparently you are in the wrong thread
So its needed to convince people the other way from the "WoW sucks thread". Apparently I am in the right thread
No you are DEFINATELY in the wrong thread. Trust me on this.
My 9 year old nephew can play it, so it's child friendly. Cartoony graphics and bright colors also appeal to children. My friend's whole family is in the same guild. And you get to rob children of their innocence when you have sick idiots running around asking everyone to cyber. My wife gets asked at least once a night while in the AH if she's willing to cyber. WoW is a haven for online predators because the game is so simple to play. I'd rather my children play almost anything besides WoW. What exactly does your wife do to elicit such questions? Does she play a male or female toon? Dress provacatively or something? I have both male and female toons. Been playing the game since beta practically everyday. Have a buddy that plays even more than me. Neither of us have EVER been asked to cyber either at the AH or away from it. What's her secret?
Laiina you can't really pick and choose a separate game to compare to each bullet point about one game. Anyhow, comparisons like that will just produce skewed views. Sure there are plenty of games that do one thing much better than WoW does [or most any game for that matter], but overall when looking at everything a game has to offer is where WoW shines. I don't agree that WOW shines any more than several other games in any but 1 or 2 of the points (and I have played about 8, starting with Meridian 59). I could post that list in half a dozen other forums and it would be correct - with the possible exception of the single most important factor - it's popularity means that there are more people playing it at any one time. Care to be more specific? Which forums would you post this in where all 10 points would still be valid? Certainly not Conan which would fail on #2. Not Vanguard which would fail at #1. Not LOTRO which would fail at #5. Not EQ2 which would fail at #4 like most others would, but I guess your correct that's mostly just because of WoW popularity. But then again, why is WoW so popular? Some claim it's marketing. Some claim it's because it's easy. Other's claim it's because it's full of kids that don't know any better. There any evidence to back any of that up? Nope. Is there any evidence that it's something else? Like maybe it's just one very nice game, yep tons of it. Just go read the reviews. Nearly every review gives it top marks across the board. It's #1 with places like Gamerankings.com and Metacritic. But you're probably right, they are ALL wrong. You know better. Comparing all the points between two games is more accurate. You point out EQ2 as having more content, but even John Smedley has stated that quality of that content has suffered at the speed with which they put it out. In this case Quantity isn't better than quality if you will. Instead of going down the list to compare EQ2s free content vs WoW you skip to LOTRO, because EQ2 is very weak in free content or free anything for that matter. You are about 3 years behind the curve on that one. EQ2 has added far more content, and far more free content that WOW. EQ2 has put out free game updates now almost every single month - the next one next week will be GU47. How many major free updates has WOW had? 16 and counting. But that's just MAJOR updates. Total updates is 46 not counting the expansion. But then pure numbers don't really tell the full story does it, because you can release an update everyday and change one thing and that doesn't really mean much does it now? The statement that Smedley made was over 3 years ago. LOTRO has also added a lot more free (and much more frequent) content. In fact I would say that WOW would be pressed to make #5 on the list of new content. Actually the amount of content added in the first year or so of WoW is pretty similar to what was produced by LOTRO. I had already shown this in an earlier post somewhere...I'll have to see if I can find it. It was a while back and I post alot AH! Here ya go... http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1930057#1930057 You say that the only thing WoW has going for it is lots of people play it and that tends to feed on itself. EQ2 had lots of people playing it at launch, but it lost about half of its subscribers soon after, because there is more to a game than how many people play it. It isn't as if people only play WoW because millions of others do, there is some substance to the gameplay underneath all the quick dismissal of the game itself. The history of WOW almost automatically gave it a huge player base to start with, since it had some 30 million Diablo fans to draw from. And Everquest 2 had how many Everquest fans to draw from? Didn't seem to help it much. The one point that I will concede that WOW did better than any other game is marketing and publicity. They recognized that most people do not really want a "hard" game, like EQ1 or VG - and they made the graphic standards low enough so you could run it on any machine less than 6 years old. Wait that's already 3 points. Marketing, Ease of play and low minimum requirements. How many things you going to lump into one point? I guess if you lump all 10 points I made into 1, then yeah they only did 1 thing better....everything. And just for the record, almost every new game out there - including WOW - lost/loses a large portion of it's initial subscribers. Some are much worse, supposedly AoC lost about 2/3 in the first month. The difference is that the good ones continue to replace the ones they lost with new customers. That's how subscriber numbers GROW. WoW didn't start out with 10 million subscribers, it GREW to 10 million plus. And how does THAT happen? By word of mouth, not marketing. And I did not "dismiss" the game. I stated that WOW - like almost any other halfway viable MMO now out there shares about 90% of any points you can make about it. Maybe it's that last 10% that is important? Personally I find WOW a bit simplistic, but I also no longer have the time to stay up until 2am on 6 hour EQ1 raids. WOW is a great game for the more casual player - which is probably 90% of the player base. I can play WOW and have fun - but I don't kid myself that it is any kind of an intellectual challenge either. So which MMO is? And to be honest, I am rather burned out on the whole fantasy game genre having played them for almost 10 years off and on. I tend to look much more critically at any game than I would have a few years ago. Ah so you admit that you're being more critical on WoW than games in the past. Some of us aren't that jaded yet. But until something really different comes out, we are all pretty much stuck with the likes of WOW, EQ, LOTRO, and similar Tolkien based games unless we want to play EVE Online. Agreed. I guess we'll just have to wait for Blizzard's next MMO
Originally posted by Vicksburg There are now MORE than 30.000 items for use in Wow. What is the matter to have 30.000 items if everybody should use the same stuff? A look at the auction House with tens of thousands different articles in it, show you Sir don't even play Wow in a serious matter. You dont even know about what i was talking about. Just an INDEPENDANT reference: "The battle for Azeroth" a compilation book of articles made by some of the best writers/authorities . Here is a link to your "independent" reference:
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Azeroth-Adventure-Alliance-Addiction/dp/1932100849 Quote" ... Azaroth has an economy Alan Greenspan would be proud of, from supply and demand to buying and selling ... " I am making 400 Gold each week by merely selling the highest crafted scope in the game. I use to do this in 4-5 days and I still amazed with people who belive this is good. And it is a known fact engineering is NOT there to make money )) We heard this from blacksmiths, alchemists, leatherworkers... Dont worry. Everybody has this problem there. Crafted items are just one or two levels behind the highest possible drops in the raids and as only 2 or 3 percent can make it to this content, the crafting economy works perfectly. Its a one-hand Axe's list from armory search. Please pay attention to the "Item lvl" and "Source" from each item: www.wowarmory.com/search.xml But of course you need to play Wow NOW and not talk of yesterday. Learn 2 play www.youtube.com/watch
It's the Wal-Mart of MMOs. It's big, it attracts tons of customers, and, more often than not, smaller games don't get a chance to really flourish because of it. Though I believe you meant "Bind on Pickup", because you can trade Bind on Equip items.
Smaller games have their chance and nothing is stopping them. It isn't like Warcraft is undercutting the small MMOs by lowering prices to unheard of levels because of their huge buying power. Anyone can make a game that is successful if they put the time into it. The only thing stopping the smaller [or any other] company is themselves. Other games aren't "flourishing", because people are getting sick and tired of half finished games getting released with flawed/rushed game designs. Why pay to beta test a game when you can play a well designed and finshed MMO?
Your analogy doesn't compare similar products which is why it fails, like most analogies do.
The analogy was good... Walmart shoppers = WoW Gamers.
Walmart shoppers do not drive down the street to try a new store = WoW gamers playing WoW even when they have 8 toons in tier 5 gear waiting 1.5 years between expansions but still play WoW.
This is why small games don't get a chance: If you can get everything you need from Walmart or WoW, why should you have to go anywhere else? Be a lemming like the rest of your town
How does that make WoW bad if you are getting the best from the older mmo's and losing what didn't work? That is what has made WoW so great....
PS
How is doing dailies much different from grinding random mobs with a certain drop (like you would do on many mmo's) for money?
What mmo has MULTIPLE sets of gear with TOP stats?
People complain everyone looks the same... but what mmo wouldn't people look the same with the top gear... and gear being easy to get is good since this game is so gear needy...
People go from QQ'n about gear imbalance to QQ about gear being easy to get (which fixed the imbalance)... make up your mind.
My 9 year old nephew can play it, so it's child friendly. Cartoony graphics and bright colors also appeal to children. My friend's whole family is in the same guild. And you get to rob children of their innocence when you have sick idiots running around asking everyone to cyber. My wife gets asked at least once a night while in the AH if she's willing to cyber. WoW is a haven for online predators because the game is so simple to play. I'd rather my children play almost anything besides WoW. Perceptive. Child friendly games do attract a kiddy community, a part of which WoW is made of. Many other games elicit the attention of raging hormonal teens btw, not only wow. Tons of repeatable daily quests available to extend the threadmill and get more gold. You can make upwards of 50$/day selling gold which beats a real job. Gold farming for real money is never a good thing. You obviously don't have a family if $50 a day makes you content. Hey some people can buy a lot of rice with that money! Besides there is a one child poilicy in certain farming countries...... you don't need land to farm just the internet. You're not thinking outside the US im taking it. Item based progression means that you continually have to update items. Expansions wipes the slate clean so that everyone can get better epics in 2 weeks no matter how good your past gear was. This evens and resets the playing field every expansion. I've witnessed this as upsetting more people than it benefits. Yep. Well deduced.
The analogy was good... Walmart shoppers = WoW Gamers. Walmart shoppers do not drive down the street to try a new store = WoW gamers playing WoW even when they have 8 toons in tier 5 gear waiting 1.5 years between expansions but still play WoW.
This is why small games don't get a chance: If you can get everything you need from Walmart or WoW, why should you have to go anywhere else? Be a lemming like the rest of your town
So now WoW is walmart, its the subscribers that are the analogy. Your first analogy was bad, but this one is even worse.
Small games are not given the right to succeed, they must earn it. Walmart and WoW do not share similar characterisitcs except that they are both popular in their respective fields, that is it. Walmart is a discount commodity business where anyone can sell the same exact item, but they just sell it cheaper. MMOs are free to sell any kind of game they wish. It isn't like Blizzard can sell copies of EQ2 cheaper than SOE which is driving them out of business. In fact most MMOs cost the same exact subscription rate which makes for a very level playing field.
Do Warcraft "shoppers" go down the street to try other "stores" as you so incorrectly put it? Sure they do. Conan has 700k, but looks to be dropping off as reviews of the game expose serious flaws and missing content. Warhammer has how many hundreds of thousands of beta applications? It has more beta applications than most current games have total subscribers and so did Conan. Vanguard sold 240k copies before every angry fan and game reviewer spread bad word of mouth about how unfinished the game was. Hellgate london sold very well only to suffer the same miserable boat load of fail as most other games. People, even WoW players, desperatly want another game to play.
How many bad MMO releases can we blame on WOW? Seriously, when do you hold companies responsible for the products they make and market instead of blaming all the markets failures on one of the few companies that took the time to make a good game for?
How many bad MMO releases can we blame on WOW? Apparently all of them. Seriously, when do you hold companies responsible for the products they make and market instead of blaming all the markets failures on one of the few companies that took the time to make a good game for? Well that would mean giving Blizzard some credit. THEY CAN'T DO THAT!!!! I just want to know when Janet Reno is gonna sue Blizzard for having a monopoly on the gaming industry?
What exactly does your wife do to elicit such questions? Does she play a male or female toon? Dress provacatively or something? I have both male and female toons. Been playing the game since beta practically everyday. Have a buddy that plays even more than me. Neither of us have EVER been asked to cyber either at the AH or away from it. What's her secret?
Are you interested?
Her secret is, she has 8 toons, all human. Not one of em are above lvl 20. I guess that's the secret... be a lowbie and look like a pauper.
It's the Wal-Mart of MMOs. It's big, it attracts tons of customers, and, more often than not, smaller games don't get a chance to really flourish because of it. Though I believe you meant "Bind on Pickup", because you can trade Bind on Equip items.
Smaller games have their chance and nothing is stopping them. It isn't like Warcraft is undercutting the small MMOs by lowering prices to unheard of levels because of their huge buying power. Anyone can make a game that is successful if they put the time into it. The only thing stopping the smaller [or any other] company is themselves. Other games aren't "flourishing", because people are getting sick and tired of half finished games getting released with flawed/rushed game designs. Why pay to beta test a game when you can play a well designed and finshed MMO?
Your analogy doesn't compare similar products which is why it fails, like most analogies do.
The analogy was good... Walmart shoppers = WoW Gamers.
Walmart shoppers do not drive down the street to try a new store = WoW gamers playing WoW even when they have 8 toons in tier 5 gear waiting 1.5 years between expansions but still play WoW.
This is why small games don't get a chance: If you can get everything you need from Walmart or WoW, why should you have to go anywhere else? Be a lemming like the rest of your town
How does that make WoW bad if you are getting the best from the older mmo's and losing what didn't work? That is what has made WoW so great....
PS
How is doing dailies much different from grinding random mobs with a certain drop (like you would do on many mmo's) for money?
What mmo has MULTIPLE sets of gear with TOP stats?
People complain everyone looks the same... but what mmo wouldn't people look the same with the top gear... and gear being easy to get is good since this game is so gear needy...
People go from QQ'n about gear imbalance to QQ about gear being easy to get (which fixed the imbalance)... make up your mind.
Not once in the thread you quoted does anyone say WoW is bad... I was just agreeing that WoW was like Walmart.
The above quoted does not say that grinding dailies is bad either. I mentioned that in a different post, and I stated that farming gold to sell for real world money is wrong because it ruins a game's economy.
Most games have multiple good pieces of gear for any particular slot, and the gear isn't usually outdated as soon as an expansion comes out. Ex. SWG, EQ1, EQ2, LOTRO, Lineage II, etc.
All end-game content is gear needy in most games I've played. That being said, there at least 2 dozen chest piece models that I can think of for EQ1, and each one of those chest pieces looks different. All have 'end-game' stats.
And your last point is one of WoW's conundrums. Let me tell you a little secret: Go, enjoy your game. Stop worrying about what others are saying. While I dislike WoW immensely, I do respect the fact that others love the game. There will always be players that dislike something about the game they play... even the hard-core gamers. Accept it, let those players bitch and enjoy your playtime.
The analogy was good... Walmart shoppers = WoW Gamers. Walmart shoppers do not drive down the street to try a new store = WoW gamers playing WoW even when they have 8 toons in tier 5 gear waiting 1.5 years between expansions but still play WoW.
This is why small games don't get a chance: If you can get everything you need from Walmart or WoW, why should you have to go anywhere else? Be a lemming like the rest of your town
So now WoW is walmart, its the subscribers that are the analogy. Your first analogy was bad, but this one is even worse.
Small games are not given the right to succeed, they must earn it. Walmart and WoW do not share similar characterisitcs except that they are both popular in their respective fields, that is it. Walmart is a discount commodity business where anyone can sell the same exact item, but they just sell it cheaper. MMOs are free to sell any kind of game they wish. It isn't like Blizzard can sell copies of EQ2 cheaper than SOE which is driving them out of business. In fact most MMOs cost the same exact subscription rate which makes for a very level playing field.
Do Warcraft "shoppers" go down the street to try other "stores" as you so incorrectly put it? Sure they do. Conan has 700k, but looks to be dropping off as reviews of the game expose serious flaws and missing content. Warhammer has how many hundreds of thousands of beta applications? It has more beta applications than most current games have total subscribers and so did Conan. Vanguard sold 240k copies before every angry fan and game reviewer spread bad word of mouth about how unfinished the game was. Hellgate london sold very well only to suffer the same miserable boat load of fail as most other games. People, even WoW players, desperatly want another game to play.
How many bad MMO releases can we blame on WOW? Seriously, when do you hold companies responsible for the products they make and market instead of blaming all the markets failures on one of the few companies that took the time to make a good game for?
You analogy sucked before and still sucks, sorry.
Maybe you need to stop micro-managing the analogy to understand it.
WoW=big market share
Walmart = Big market share.
WoW = happy customers
Walmart = happy customers
WoW = All-in-one experience
Walmart = All-in-one experience
Do you understand the similarities? I didn't create the analogy, that was Ascension08but I do understand the concept of it.
I don't think he/she was dissing your game, and I am not either, but damn it all if you didn't get real defensive. It's said many times that WoW is the fast food of MMOs... does that analogy suit you better?
It's the Wal-Mart of MMOs. It's big, it attracts tons of customers, and, more often than not, smaller games don't get a chance to really flourish because of it. Though I believe you meant "Bind on Pickup", because you can trade Bind on Equip items.
Smaller games have their chance and nothing is stopping them. It isn't like Warcraft is undercutting the small MMOs by lowering prices to unheard of levels because of their huge buying power. Anyone can make a game that is successful if they put the time into it. The only thing stopping the smaller [or any other] company is themselves. Other games aren't "flourishing", because people are getting sick and tired of half finished games getting released with flawed/rushed game designs. Why pay to beta test a game when you can play a well designed and finshed MMO?
Your analogy doesn't compare similar products which is why it fails, like most analogies do.
The analogy was good... Walmart shoppers = WoW Gamers.
Walmart shoppers do not drive down the street to try a new store = WoW gamers playing WoW even when they have 8 toons in tier 5 gear waiting 1.5 years between expansions but still play WoW.
This is why small games don't get a chance: If you can get everything you need from Walmart or WoW, why should you have to go anywhere else? Be a lemming like the rest of your town
How does that make WoW bad if you are getting the best from the older mmo's and losing what didn't work? That is what has made WoW so great....
PS
How is doing dailies much different from grinding random mobs with a certain drop (like you would do on many mmo's) for money?
What mmo has MULTIPLE sets of gear with TOP stats?
People complain everyone looks the same... but what mmo wouldn't people look the same with the top gear... and gear being easy to get is good since this game is so gear needy...
People go from QQ'n about gear imbalance to QQ about gear being easy to get (which fixed the imbalance)... make up your mind.
Not once in the thread you quoted does anyone say WoW is bad... I was just agreeing that WoW was like Walmart.
The above quoted does not say that grinding dailies is bad either. I mentioned that in a different post, and I stated that farming gold to sell for real world money is wrong because it ruins a game's economy.
Most games have multiple good pieces of gear for any particular slot, and the gear isn't usually outdated as soon as an expansion comes out. Ex. SWG, EQ1, EQ2, LOTRO, Lineage II, etc.
All end-game content is gear needy in most games I've played. That being said, there at least 2 dozen chest piece models that I can think of for EQ1, and each one of those chest pieces looks different. All have 'end-game' stats.
And your last point is one of WoW's conundrums. Let me tell you a little secret: Go, enjoy your game. Stop worrying about what others are saying. While I dislike WoW immensely, I do respect the fact that others love the game. There will always be players that dislike something about the game they play... even the hard-core gamers. Accept it, let those players bitch and enjoy your playtime.
Nothing below PS was directed to who i quoted... its more directed to everyone (specially the tons of people who hate wow just because it is popular..)
My point just is.. the BIGGEST issues people have with WoW are in every game....
And the BIGGEST issue atm is.... WELFARE epics... you know what the issue was before welfare epics? People in the BEST gear having huge advantages...
My point just is every complaint towards WoW is usually invalid. There is no problem if you don't like it... but complaining about things every mmo has and using it as proof as do why it sucks is stupid.
(and of course this is not directed to you personally)
I stopped reading about halway through this post because i didn't hear too many thing that apply to the game itself. Many very general posts that almost all other MMOs have in them. If you want to argue how great WoW then know what other games have to offer so you have something to compare off of. If all you know is WoW and never played anything else of course WoW is going to be the greatest game ever. I on other hand have a stack of MMOs that i cry at every time i think how much money i paid and i don't even play it anymore. Anyways to get to the subject. WoW is not the great game alot of people want to think it is but it isn't that bad either. I will post good and bad on WoW and compare it to other games that are better or worse.
Performance and system 9/10
It is kind to systems. It uses a very good engine to make the rendering very easy but doesn't have the greatest graphics out there. Not a huge deal if it's greatest graphics if you can design things to look good. If you want to know what i am talking about look really close at your armor, it is basically a crayon drawing pasted over a very simple shell. They do make items such as Thunder Fury, Warlock S3 helm, most Teir 3 4 5 6, that they did a good job making it look good with using a simple shell to put it on. It is also lame though when my season 6 gloves are the same gloves i had when i was 40 just with a new paint job. Also really sucks that you can't dye your armor or do anything to make it yours. One thing that many many MMOs have in them. Guild wars did really good with this, EQ2 has alot of cool things you can do with armor too, and many more i will not spend time to mention. but i will talk more about that shortly. Comparing WoW to other games in performance it's very good and they don't have problems liek AoC or EQ2 where world enemys do alot of funky things and you have constant errors or bugs in system.
They did something smart when they made addons. It is mostly unique in way they did it and the scale it is used. You can't even play the game without the proper addons and blizzard in some cases builds there UI around an addon so that it works better. Goodjob blizzard this is one of the best things they did to game.
Easy to update, Easy to navigate, Easy to play
Content rated 5/10
This game has the worst content of almost any MMO i have played. It has no story lines to follow, this game has no cutscenes, this game has nothing that makes me feel like i am doing anything other then just killing the same boss over and over again. This is one of the reasons i leave this game over and over again. A little reason why i am doing something would go a long way in making it alot more enjoyable. I understand it is based off of Warcraft lore but that should make it even more story driven. It is based off a story that is already set in stone now make me have to go kill Prince or someone because thrall came to me and let me know the threat he poses on the horde. Something that makes it a story and not just "oh look a big drenai". They have books, they have games, they have the ability to build one of the best story based MMOs out there but don't bother to. They started to do a little bit of this in Caverns of Time but they never really finished it. Kinda a small glips of what they could do without fully doing it. Helping Thrall escape is probably one of my favorite things i have done in game, it sent me back to playing Warcraft and felt like i was doing something. One of my favorite MMOs i have ever played is FF11, It has one of the best story driven MMOs out there. You have a large endgame dedicated to doing missions to get better gear and see a great story. Granted you don't have anything for 75 levels and these are probably most painfull 75 levels in any MMO but it has one of best endgame contents of anything i have seen. It has great storys built into each expansion, it has a reason why i kill almost every boss i come accross, It has content that gives me rewards that make you feel like you earned them. LotRO is a very good story driven MMO, they did a very good job in this game making it to where you always have a good story to follow and deal of content even when leveling. I never did reach endgame on LotRO but i am seriously thinking about picking it back up again. Guildwars did a good job of making alot of content. AoC have a great deal of story and it's good, I just can't play the game on more then 40FPS and a system just setup to play it. It had many problems in game but there content wasn't one of them.
As far as armor and weapons and progression in raiding, It isn't that bad. They do allow constantly for people to raid and get more stuff. Add new dungeons all time which is great and something i wish more MMOs would do. They add more armor all time so even if your in full season 6 with great gear you still want to PvP to get honor and arena points for next season. In PvE they add more dungeons with more gear and different stats that can apply to many different fights which makes the need for more gear which makes more gameplay. They are very good in doing this so that they don't loose there endgame raiders to other game when they are sitting on best gear out there.
Classes crafting and skill rated 4/10
Start with classes.The day i started playing WoW was in the beta way back and i rolled a warlock originally and a warrior to start off with. Those two classes now are nothing like they use to be at all. They play different they have different roles and i don't even feel like the reason i started playing them is there anymore. This is one thing i hate about WoW and like is the progression of classes. I understand trying to balance classes so that everyone has fun but when you change a class so much that it plays different and has a new purpose in PvE and PvP then your creating a new class and ruin some peoples reasons why they play the class. This game is known for the nerf, the Over Powered classes and the broken abilitys. Even as of now abilitys i have had since launch get changed all the sudden after how many years. If it's been around for 5+ years now then why get rid of it or all sudden decide to change it. It's like they constantly are trying to screw with something to make it work and end up screwing something else up in process. I have seen OP classes get knocked to being completely broken then broken classes get knocked completely OP. They can't find that happy meduim so that all classes have a fair advantage in PvE and PvP to get usefull positions in raids, kill other classes, and not have to worry about being screwed up in the next patch. I look at patch notes in fear because i know they will change something and not sure if i am going to be the one that benifits or ends up getting screwed over because of it. This is stuff you do in the beta not years into it's launch. Make a class, build the class and tweak the class! don't just rip abilitys out of game and add new ones because your just going to screw something else up in process. I know people are going to post that you have to change the class to creat balance, but you should have made it balanced in first place in the beta thats why it is there. Now time to compare to other games. My favorite MMO of all time is still FF11 and this will give a good example of class building. I had a 75 sam 75 rdm 75 nin with all other classes to 50+ and the whole time i played the game only very slight changes where made to any 1 class to make them just slightly better or slightly worse at any 1 thing and it was usually just to make a class improve on it's weak spots. It a class didn't have any survivalbility they would add armor and a way to evade an attack but not so much that the class could never get hit again. They also made it where subclasses made you change your class up alot and in turn you could slightly make it your own by using abilitys from subclasses with mainclasses to do something different. This was a good build on classes in game, all the classes had a good position in "raids" and all the classes had the same chances as other ones ,for most part ,with subclasses. I really can not speak alot on this for most other games because i never really played them all the way to endgame and had time to see them all progress but i am sure most games have not seen the changes WoW has. I will end here i have more to say but it's getting too long.
Crafting is decent just wish it was harder and had more of a benifit. Most other games people have to look to crafters for items and help with gear or items, but in WoW it's like crafting is just kind of a thing there to take up space. It works a little bit for like alchamy and money making but as far as gear most of it is replaced so fast it wasn't worth making in first place. I like in other MMOs where some people don't even level or do endgame, they just sit and work on crafting all the time to get it higher and make rare items. Some people enjoy this and can build a whole game off crafting to become a merchant. They did add plenty of crafts out there and it does contribute so they did ok on this.
Ok last one! Skill. I have seen more skill in a 5 year old trying to stay inside the lines then it requires to play this game. Bosses are boring and easy and just require someone with gear and the ability to stay awake long enough to not do something stupid to defeat. I can't believe how easy some endgame can be and how few people get to high end raids. I am not talking about kara or even gruuls lair, I am talking about SSC, Hyjal, Mag, and even BT. These things are simple compared to other endgame MMOs. Most of this games endgame is purely based on gear and not on the ability of the player. FF11 i know i reference alot but it's what i know best so i use it rather then pretending i know about something i don't, anyways in FF11 gear had very little to do with things. It was huge to get +3 to a stat and even the best geared person had little advantage when it came to skill in that game. Fight required every single person to pay attention and if someone died in a hard fight it usually ment a wipe. It was very tense fight and the missions in game required everything you could get to get past them. Not only that but at level 70 you had to past a test which was purely based on how good you are called Maat. You basically had to fight yourself in order to level past 70 and it was a hard fight for most classes. I love a challenge but this game has rarely offered anything more then me having to slightly pay attention for a moment. If this game is hard to you then you are in right spot and never change MMOs because you wouldn't believe some other fights i have seen and been part of in other MMOs. In a kirin fight in FF11 for a just common linksell took atleast 2-3 hours to kills a single boss. Not only that but in order to get to kirin you had to work the whole week killing the 4 other gods and in order to get to them you had to kill 2 bosses for each one which are on a world spawn timer of 2 hours to 6 hours a spawn time. Not only that but This boss could 1 shot almost anyone he hit and you didn't get a 2nd chance you either killed him or it was onto next weeks try because you lost your orb to summon him if you wipe. Oh yea and about kirin while fighting him he summons all 4 gods into the fight at same time which are just as strong as when you fight them outside, which makes it like Rag summoning every boss you had to fight all the way up to him in the middle of the fight. Like I said if you think this games hard then your right where you should be.
Just as a final note right now i am leveling a warlock and i have a 70 hunter 70 druid 70 shaman 70 warrior on horde and a 70 alliance druid. I am still playing the game sometimes along with other games so something keeps bringing me back to game. I would still play FF11 but i don't have time to anymore, one of the downfalls of game is it takes up every waking moment to play. I might pick up Requime, LotRO, or EQ2 again soon but mostly i am just holding out for AION. AION looks amazing and everything i want in a MMO.
If you managed to read this whole thing congrats and sorry it's so long but remember i took the time to write it so don't knock me for making it this long. Also post is called LONG LIST of why WoW doesn't suck.
Also for anyone who wants to comment on my grammer, spelling, choice of words, or even the fact i like a game remember i don't care about a word you say just save yourself some time and don't bother posting. This does not pertain to people who want an intelligent conversation i will take any openions and thoughts anyone wants to post.
Do you understand the similarities? I didn't create the analogy, that was Ascension08but I do understand the concept of it.
I don't think he/she was dissing your game, and I am not either, but damn it all if you didn't get real defensive. It's said many times that WoW is the fast food of MMOs... does that analogy suit you better?
No the fast food analogy is worse than the Walmart one. They tend to lack similar facts, do not represent to similar products well and most often tend to be used to illicit an negative image/emotion in place of any real substance of an argument. Just because they share a few similarities doesn't make them representative of the other.
Walmart for example tends to be associated with a company that puts poor old mom and pop out of business and on the street, sells nothing but foreign products made by child labor and also takes away local jobs, the home of mouth breathing shoppers, etc. Do you ever notice why people who use analogies and WoW never use anything but products that have a negative image? Honestly, go look at how the Walmart analogy was used in this thread. As if WoW is somehow putting mom and pop games out of business? I understood the original analogy very well, maybe you need to stop trying to make it work so hard in a situation where it doesn't.
You yourself used that analogy to incorrectly labels WoW players as unwilling to "shop" anywhere else for an MMO as if they somehow do so for the same reason as Walmart shoppers. It is easy to make anything seem like reality when you dilute a subject by talking about an analogy instead. Just because WoW and Walmart are both popular it doesn't mean they are so for the same reasons and everything about the two businesses is indentical.
I'm sorry if I come off as defensive, but it gets really tiresome hearing people make a statement about a game and then try to have a discussion about how hamburgers or walmart are bad and that somehow makes their initial comment valid. I would rather those people just go back to saying "WoW is teh sux" and then leave the discussion.
Do you understand the similarities? I didn't create the analogy, that was Ascension08but I do understand the concept of it.
I don't think he/she was dissing your game, and I am not either, but damn it all if you didn't get real defensive. It's said many times that WoW is the fast food of MMOs... does that analogy suit you better?
No the fast food analogy is worse than the Walmart one. They tend to lack similar facts, do not represent to similar products well and most often tend to be used to illicit an negative image/emotion in place of any real substance of an argument. Just because they share a few similarities doesn't make them representative of the other.
Walmart for example tends to be associated with a company that puts poor old mom and pop out of business and on the street, sells nothing but foreign products made by child labor and also takes away local jobs, the home of mouth breathing shoppers, etc. Do you ever notice why people who use analogies and WoW never use anything but products that have a negative image? Honestly, go look at how the Walmart analogy was used in this thread. As if WoW is somehow putting mom and pop games out of business? I understood the original analogy very well, maybe you need to stop trying to make it work so hard in a situation where it doesn't.
You yourself used that analogy to incorrectly labels WoW players as unwilling to "shop" anywhere else for an MMO as if they somehow do so for the same reason as Walmart shoppers. It is easy to make anything seem like reality when you dilute a subject by talking about an analogy instead. Just because WoW and Walmart are both popular it doesn't mean they are so for the same reasons and everything about the two businesses is indentical.
I'm sorry if I come off as defensive, but it gets really tiresome hearing people make a statement about a game and then try to have a discussion about how hamburgers or walmart are bad and that somehow makes their initial comment valid. I would rather those people just go back to saying "WoW is teh sux" and then leave the discussion.
I got tired of seeing that "other" thread so I'm starting a new one. If you like the game, feel free to post your comments here instead of in that "other" thread. 1) Everyone can play it. You don't need a new PC to play it, you don't even need a new graphics card and you can still get a decent framerate. What if I have ATI rage pro card w/o 3D Accelerator? :P 2) It works. I don't crash to desktop. The quests can all be completed. If I actually have an issue like accidentally giving a bind on pickup item to the wrong person in Kara or accidentally deleting the wrong character, I can open a ticket and it will be fixed usually within an hour or 2. I crashed quite a few times. If an accident like that happens, GM will contact you and tell you it is all your fault and better luck next time. I know this from personal experience. 3) It's kept up to date. Patches come out every month or 2 that add additional content, update the interface, add new features, etc. Every couple years a new expansion comes out with a bunch of new content, new races, new classes, new professions, new skills etc. Patches bring lousy content, more grind and nerfs/boost that don't make sense. As for the expansion thing, you wrote that like WoW has 10 expansions already, but it has only one so far. Also that one expansion that did come out was crap and ruined lots of good thing old WoW had. 4) Servers are always active. Everytime I log in there's tons of people in game. I have a list of about 20 friends and there's almost always somebody playing. I put stuff up on the AH and within 48 hours it's sold. If I need something, I can search the AH and find it. True. 5) It's complete. For PvE there's role playing, questing, raiding, professions, trading and reputation rewards. For PvP there's battlegrounds, dueling, arenas, world PvP and tournament play. True, but not a good thing. PvP is crap. 6) It's user friendly. I can play alone or in a group up equally well and both offer great rewards. There are no harsh penalties for getting killed which means I don't spend a bunch of time trying to reacquire something I've already acquired. Leveling up doesn't take a lot of time so I always feel like I'm progressing even if I can only spend a couple hours a week playing. True, but again this is not always a good thing. 7) It's fun. Lots of little extra's are added like holidays, world events, the faire, and a fishing tournament. This is true, and I like this about WoW. 8) It's beautiful. Whether you are 5 or 75 you can appreciate a world filled with knights, damsels in distress, dragons, sorcerers, magic, dark castles, earie graveyards, majestic mountains, breathtaking waterfalls, zeppelin rides, vast oceans, etc. Its not ugly, but its nowhere near breathtaking as you put it.
9) It's addicting. Whether you are just a casual player or a hard core raider it will keep you entertained for hours and keep you wanting to come back for more. Very true. 10) It's cheap. It costs about the same to play WoW for a month that it does to go see a 2 hour movie, buy a soda and popcorn and pay for the gas there and back and I never have to leave the comfort of my own house. For entertainment value it's hard to beat.
PvP in World of Warcraft has the BEST animation of all MMORPG's.
And with Arena Blizzard has a tool in which 3vs3 and 5vs5 battles can assemble millions of data to analyse and sharpen its classes.
NO other MMORPG comes even close to the resources Blizzard has to develop these classes.
Just look at Conan HOW bad the competition is at the moment in this respect.
As for the animation : WAR is a real LAUGH in PvP combat: S L O W, C L U N K Y and "floating" characters that seem to glide on a moon surface in ALL videos shown on the web. It's not even HALF of the fighting speeds seen in Wow.
WAR is DAoC all over again - and you ALL know the balance of classes in DAoC was a real laugh !!!!.
Hundred times worse than Wow 3 years ago - and now with Arena as a sample of millions of fights, you BET WotLK will have real POWER in those open world PvP combats.
So Wow has the BEST PvP fighting animations, the MOST money behind it to balance it through the millions of data gathered in Arena and the ONLY game out there with complete open world Sieges in the new expansion zone. Even WAR and Conan have parts of these sieges 'instanced".
Not even talking of the air combat, the manned tank units, the underwater worlds and of course its HUGE PVE raid and dungeon content, ALL can be visited with 10 men raids in the new expansion btw.
I Performance and system 9/10 Itway they did it and the scale it is used. You can't even play the game without the proper addons and blizzard in some cases builds there UI around an addon so that it works better. Goodjob blizzard this is one of the best things they did to game. Easy to update, Easy to navigate, Easy to play Content rated 5/10 Classes crafting and skill rated 4/10 the game sometimes along with other games so something keeps bringing me back to game. I would still play FF11 but i don't have time to anymore, one of the downfalls of game is it takes up every waking moment to play. I might pick up Requime, LotRO, or EQ2 again soon but mostly i am just holding out for AION. AION looks amazing and everything i want in a MMO. Also for anyone who wants to comment on my grammer, spelling, choice of words, or even the fact i like a game remember i don't care about a word you say just save yourself some time and don't bother posting. This does not pertain to people who want an intelligent conversation i will take any openions and thoughts anyone wants to post.
Just ONE comment:
The AVERAGE review of WOW on the web of ALL INDEPENDANT sources was ... 93%
So I think you have a little problem there
And I would very much thank you for playing this game for .... 3(?) years if you wouldn't even grade it with a 5.
I Performance and system 9/10 Itway they did it and the scale it is used. You can't even play the game without the proper addons and blizzard in some cases builds there UI around an addon so that it works better. Goodjob blizzard this is one of the best things they did to game. Easy to update, Easy to navigate, Easy to play Content rated 5/10 Classes crafting and skill rated 4/10 the game sometimes along with other games so something keeps bringing me back to game. I would still play FF11 but i don't have time to anymore, one of the downfalls of game is it takes up every waking moment to play. I might pick up Requime, LotRO, or EQ2 again soon but mostly i am just holding out for AION. AION looks amazing and everything i want in a MMO. Also for anyone who wants to comment on my grammer, spelling, choice of words, or even the fact i like a game remember i don't care about a word you say just save yourself some time and don't bother posting. This does not pertain to people who want an intelligent conversation i will take any openions and thoughts anyone wants to post.
Just ONE comment:
The AVERAGE review of WOW on the web of ALL INDEPENDANT sources was ... 93%
So I think you have a little problem there
And I would very much thank you for playing this game for .... 3(?) years if you wouldn't even grade it with a 5.
next
Show me any review on WoW that has a 93% positive rating. If you have ever come to this website you would know a very large amount of people are pissed off at WoW and that would be more of a 70% if it is real.
You know what they call it when people partially qoute a statement to show what they want it to say rather then what it did say, Plagerism! If you are going to quote anything i said quote the whole thing and show a very accurate example. Yes i said i play the game still on and off, but remember everytime i go back i quit shortly after again and pick up a new game. I can't stand to play WoW for longer then a few months at most. So yes i rated as i see fit and please show me anyplace WoW gets a 93% approval rating.
I Performance and system 9/10 Itway they did it and the scale it is used. You can't even play the game without the proper addons and blizzard in some cases builds there UI around an addon so that it works better. Goodjob blizzard this is one of the best things they did to game. Easy to update, Easy to navigate, Easy to play Content rated 5/10 Classes crafting and skill rated 4/10 the game sometimes along with other games so something keeps bringing me back to game. I would still play FF11 but i don't have time to anymore, one of the downfalls of game is it takes up every waking moment to play. I might pick up Requime, LotRO, or EQ2 again soon but mostly i am just holding out for AION. AION looks amazing and everything i want in a MMO. Also for anyone who wants to comment on my grammer, spelling, choice of words, or even the fact i like a game remember i don't care about a word you say just save yourself some time and don't bother posting. This does not pertain to people who want an intelligent conversation i will take any openions and thoughts anyone wants to post.
Just ONE comment:
The AVERAGE review of WOW on the web of ALL INDEPENDANT sources was ... 93%
So I think you have a little problem there
And I would very much thank you for playing this game for .... 3(?) years if you wouldn't even grade it with a 5.
next
Show me any review on WoW that has a 93% positive rating. If you have ever come to this website you would know a very large amount of people are pissed off at WoW and that would be more of a 70% if it is real.
You know what they call it when people partially qoute a statement to show what they want it to say rather then what it did say, Plagerism! If you are going to quote anything i said quote the whole thing and show a very accurate example. Yes i said i play the game still on and off, but remember everytime i go back i quit shortly after again and pick up a new game. I can't stand to play WoW for longer then a few months at most. So yes i rated as i see fit and please show me anyplace WoW gets a 93% approval rating.
WoW has been a great game but I quit it to go to AOC...but now I sold my AOC account and plan on re-buying WoW....why? Because their isn't crap out there right now and i'm tired of paying for garbage MMO's. Payed for Vanguard....garbage...paid for AOC...garbage...tired of it. WoW might be repetitive but at least there is a community so it doesn't get bored.
This is a very longstanding gripe with WoW that Blizzard has only made worse and worse. The so called "PVP" servers really don't have much PVP in them at all. Oh sure you might get ganked here or there in certain areas but, for the most part, most PVP takes place in battleground instances not in cities or other areas outside of the battlegrounds.
Why is this? Well Blizzard's PVP system provides the vast majority of players with incentives to sit in battlegrounds all day instead of going out into Azeroth or Outland. And if any bold players decide to take over the town or city of the other faction, high level guards swarm the raid and it just ends up mostly being an exercise in paying large sums of money for gold repairs.
World PVP is basically dead, for the most part, in WoW. The so-called "PVP" servers are nothing more than modified PVE servers that punish players who decide to really get out there and do some serious ganking or raiding of cities, etc.
No the fast food analogy is worse than the Walmart one. They tend to lack similar facts, do not represent to similar products well and most often tend to be used to illicit an negative image/emotion in place of any real substance of an argument. Just because they share a few similarities doesn't make them representative of the other. Walmart for example tends to be associated with a company that puts poor old mom and pop out of business and on the street, sells nothing but foreign products made by child labor and also takes away local jobs, the home of mouth breathing shoppers, etc. Do you ever notice why people who use analogies and WoW never use anything but products that have a negative image? Honestly, go look at how the Walmart analogy was used in this thread. As if WoW is somehow putting mom and pop games out of business? I understood the original analogy very well, maybe you need to stop trying to make it work so hard in a situation where it doesn't. You yourself used that analogy to incorrectly labels WoW players as unwilling to "shop" anywhere else for an MMO as if they somehow do so for the same reason as Walmart shoppers. It is easy to make anything seem like reality when you dilute a subject by talking about an analogy instead. Just because WoW and Walmart are both popular it doesn't mean they are so for the same reasons and everything about the two businesses is indentical. I'm sorry if I come off as defensive, but it gets really tiresome hearing people make a statement about a game and then try to have a discussion about how hamburgers or walmart are bad and that somehow makes their initial comment valid. I would rather those people just go back to saying "WoW is teh sux" and then leave the discussion.
I hear the fast food analogy waaaay too often and can't take credit for it. It is not something created on these boards alone. It's everywhere. That being said, I don't fully agree with the fast food analogy but I do agree with WoW = Walmart. It's only a matter of time before Blizzard outsources their call centers which will lead to loss of local (N. America) jobs. I do believe WoW players are less likely to try smaller niche games because WoW has everything they need, much like Walmart does for my mother.
AOC players are probably a good deal of former WoW players that were into the existing IP. Saying AOC got WoW players is like saying Bioware's new MMO will take WoW players as will LOTRO2, Star Trek Online, or any other game based on an existing IP. I am talking about a new game with new lore and no previous IP. Those games will never get a chance to succeed. So, in order to have a hope of competing, these new companies are forced to emulate the WoW format which will (sort of) give WoW players something new if they choose to get out of their comfort zone they have established already in WoW. Hardcore WoW players have multiple level 70s. They are kings among men. To drop that all for a new game is daunting because these kings are now commoners like everyone else. For my mother, that is not something she looks forward to, which is why she will play WoW forever and shop at Walmart forever.
I don't think WoW sucks, as I played it for over two years off and on. I think Blizzard is taking advantage of their subscribers.
10 million subscribers x $15 per month = $150 MILLION PER MONTH!!! Anyone that plays WoW and doesn't resent the fact that there has only been one released expansion in 4 years should question that. What is the money going to? It's not graphical updates or expansions. I've stated in a thread a while ago that with funding like that, any existing or soon-to-be-released game could move mountains. There are a ton of so-so games right now that could benefit from 3 days' worth of Blizzard's Subscription revenue to turn their game into a blockbuster.
PS. Someone mentioned free content earlier. A couple battlegrounds and a couple new areas in 4 years isn't a lot of free content. If gamers are into free content, they should check out LOTRO. That game understands free content.
Comments
Emerald dream...the Maelstrom...and some other places not in game yet...
There is plenty of more story to be covered.
It doesn't suck. We're just bored of it and many of us who are bored of it have nothing else to play (and no lives to speak of), so we just complain about the game and hope it will change to our liking. Fat chance, that.
No it doesn't. It means it's a response to the thread "Short list of reasons why WoW sucks". That' is the reason for this thread. This thread doesn't exist because it needs to, it exists because that other thread exists. Nothing more.
It's not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just got tired of seeing people come into the WoW forums and bash the game in that thread and thought maybe there should be a thread for those of us that like that game where we could post our opinions. Apparently you are in the wrong thread
So its needed to convince people the other way from the "WoW sucks thread". Apparently I am in the right thread
No you are DEFINATELY in the wrong thread. Trust me on this.
Smaller games have their chance and nothing is stopping them. It isn't like Warcraft is undercutting the small MMOs by lowering prices to unheard of levels because of their huge buying power. Anyone can make a game that is successful if they put the time into it. The only thing stopping the smaller [or any other] company is themselves. Other games aren't "flourishing", because people are getting sick and tired of half finished games getting released with flawed/rushed game designs. Why pay to beta test a game when you can play a well designed and finshed MMO?
Your analogy doesn't compare similar products which is why it fails, like most analogies do.
The analogy was good... Walmart shoppers = WoW Gamers.
Walmart shoppers do not drive down the street to try a new store = WoW gamers playing WoW even when they have 8 toons in tier 5 gear waiting 1.5 years between expansions but still play WoW.
This is why small games don't get a chance: If you can get everything you need from Walmart or WoW, why should you have to go anywhere else? Be a lemming like the rest of your town
How does that make WoW bad if you are getting the best from the older mmo's and losing what didn't work? That is what has made WoW so great....
PS
How is doing dailies much different from grinding random mobs with a certain drop (like you would do on many mmo's) for money?
What mmo has MULTIPLE sets of gear with TOP stats?
People complain everyone looks the same... but what mmo wouldn't people look the same with the top gear... and gear being easy to get is good since this game is so gear needy...
People go from QQ'n about gear imbalance to QQ about gear being easy to get (which fixed the imbalance)... make up your mind.
So now WoW is walmart, its the subscribers that are the analogy. Your first analogy was bad, but this one is even worse.
Small games are not given the right to succeed, they must earn it. Walmart and WoW do not share similar characterisitcs except that they are both popular in their respective fields, that is it. Walmart is a discount commodity business where anyone can sell the same exact item, but they just sell it cheaper. MMOs are free to sell any kind of game they wish. It isn't like Blizzard can sell copies of EQ2 cheaper than SOE which is driving them out of business. In fact most MMOs cost the same exact subscription rate which makes for a very level playing field.
Do Warcraft "shoppers" go down the street to try other "stores" as you so incorrectly put it? Sure they do. Conan has 700k, but looks to be dropping off as reviews of the game expose serious flaws and missing content. Warhammer has how many hundreds of thousands of beta applications? It has more beta applications than most current games have total subscribers and so did Conan. Vanguard sold 240k copies before every angry fan and game reviewer spread bad word of mouth about how unfinished the game was. Hellgate london sold very well only to suffer the same miserable boat load of fail as most other games. People, even WoW players, desperatly want another game to play.
How many bad MMO releases can we blame on WOW? Seriously, when do you hold companies responsible for the products they make and market instead of blaming all the markets failures on one of the few companies that took the time to make a good game for?
You analogy sucked before and still sucks, sorry.
Are you interested?
Her secret is, she has 8 toons, all human. Not one of em are above lvl 20. I guess that's the secret... be a lowbie and look like a pauper.
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/28371832@N02/2648951313/[/url]
Smaller games have their chance and nothing is stopping them. It isn't like Warcraft is undercutting the small MMOs by lowering prices to unheard of levels because of their huge buying power. Anyone can make a game that is successful if they put the time into it. The only thing stopping the smaller [or any other] company is themselves. Other games aren't "flourishing", because people are getting sick and tired of half finished games getting released with flawed/rushed game designs. Why pay to beta test a game when you can play a well designed and finshed MMO?
Your analogy doesn't compare similar products which is why it fails, like most analogies do.
The analogy was good... Walmart shoppers = WoW Gamers.
Walmart shoppers do not drive down the street to try a new store = WoW gamers playing WoW even when they have 8 toons in tier 5 gear waiting 1.5 years between expansions but still play WoW.
This is why small games don't get a chance: If you can get everything you need from Walmart or WoW, why should you have to go anywhere else? Be a lemming like the rest of your town
How does that make WoW bad if you are getting the best from the older mmo's and losing what didn't work? That is what has made WoW so great....
PS
How is doing dailies much different from grinding random mobs with a certain drop (like you would do on many mmo's) for money?
What mmo has MULTIPLE sets of gear with TOP stats?
People complain everyone looks the same... but what mmo wouldn't people look the same with the top gear... and gear being easy to get is good since this game is so gear needy...
People go from QQ'n about gear imbalance to QQ about gear being easy to get (which fixed the imbalance)... make up your mind.
Not once in the thread you quoted does anyone say WoW is bad... I was just agreeing that WoW was like Walmart.
The above quoted does not say that grinding dailies is bad either. I mentioned that in a different post, and I stated that farming gold to sell for real world money is wrong because it ruins a game's economy.
Most games have multiple good pieces of gear for any particular slot, and the gear isn't usually outdated as soon as an expansion comes out. Ex. SWG, EQ1, EQ2, LOTRO, Lineage II, etc.
All end-game content is gear needy in most games I've played. That being said, there at least 2 dozen chest piece models that I can think of for EQ1, and each one of those chest pieces looks different. All have 'end-game' stats.
And your last point is one of WoW's conundrums. Let me tell you a little secret: Go, enjoy your game. Stop worrying about what others are saying. While I dislike WoW immensely, I do respect the fact that others love the game. There will always be players that dislike something about the game they play... even the hard-core gamers. Accept it, let those players bitch and enjoy your playtime.
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So now WoW is walmart, its the subscribers that are the analogy. Your first analogy was bad, but this one is even worse.
Small games are not given the right to succeed, they must earn it. Walmart and WoW do not share similar characterisitcs except that they are both popular in their respective fields, that is it. Walmart is a discount commodity business where anyone can sell the same exact item, but they just sell it cheaper. MMOs are free to sell any kind of game they wish. It isn't like Blizzard can sell copies of EQ2 cheaper than SOE which is driving them out of business. In fact most MMOs cost the same exact subscription rate which makes for a very level playing field.
Do Warcraft "shoppers" go down the street to try other "stores" as you so incorrectly put it? Sure they do. Conan has 700k, but looks to be dropping off as reviews of the game expose serious flaws and missing content. Warhammer has how many hundreds of thousands of beta applications? It has more beta applications than most current games have total subscribers and so did Conan. Vanguard sold 240k copies before every angry fan and game reviewer spread bad word of mouth about how unfinished the game was. Hellgate london sold very well only to suffer the same miserable boat load of fail as most other games. People, even WoW players, desperatly want another game to play.
How many bad MMO releases can we blame on WOW? Seriously, when do you hold companies responsible for the products they make and market instead of blaming all the markets failures on one of the few companies that took the time to make a good game for?
You analogy sucked before and still sucks, sorry.
Maybe you need to stop micro-managing the analogy to understand it.
WoW=big market share
Walmart = Big market share.
WoW = happy customers
Walmart = happy customers
WoW = All-in-one experience
Walmart = All-in-one experience
Do you understand the similarities? I didn't create the analogy, that was Ascension08 but I do understand the concept of it.
I don't think he/she was dissing your game, and I am not either, but damn it all if you didn't get real defensive. It's said many times that WoW is the fast food of MMOs... does that analogy suit you better?
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Smaller games have their chance and nothing is stopping them. It isn't like Warcraft is undercutting the small MMOs by lowering prices to unheard of levels because of their huge buying power. Anyone can make a game that is successful if they put the time into it. The only thing stopping the smaller [or any other] company is themselves. Other games aren't "flourishing", because people are getting sick and tired of half finished games getting released with flawed/rushed game designs. Why pay to beta test a game when you can play a well designed and finshed MMO?
Your analogy doesn't compare similar products which is why it fails, like most analogies do.
The analogy was good... Walmart shoppers = WoW Gamers.
Walmart shoppers do not drive down the street to try a new store = WoW gamers playing WoW even when they have 8 toons in tier 5 gear waiting 1.5 years between expansions but still play WoW.
This is why small games don't get a chance: If you can get everything you need from Walmart or WoW, why should you have to go anywhere else? Be a lemming like the rest of your town
How does that make WoW bad if you are getting the best from the older mmo's and losing what didn't work? That is what has made WoW so great....
PS
How is doing dailies much different from grinding random mobs with a certain drop (like you would do on many mmo's) for money?
What mmo has MULTIPLE sets of gear with TOP stats?
People complain everyone looks the same... but what mmo wouldn't people look the same with the top gear... and gear being easy to get is good since this game is so gear needy...
People go from QQ'n about gear imbalance to QQ about gear being easy to get (which fixed the imbalance)... make up your mind.
Not once in the thread you quoted does anyone say WoW is bad... I was just agreeing that WoW was like Walmart.
The above quoted does not say that grinding dailies is bad either. I mentioned that in a different post, and I stated that farming gold to sell for real world money is wrong because it ruins a game's economy.
Most games have multiple good pieces of gear for any particular slot, and the gear isn't usually outdated as soon as an expansion comes out. Ex. SWG, EQ1, EQ2, LOTRO, Lineage II, etc.
All end-game content is gear needy in most games I've played. That being said, there at least 2 dozen chest piece models that I can think of for EQ1, and each one of those chest pieces looks different. All have 'end-game' stats.
And your last point is one of WoW's conundrums. Let me tell you a little secret: Go, enjoy your game. Stop worrying about what others are saying. While I dislike WoW immensely, I do respect the fact that others love the game. There will always be players that dislike something about the game they play... even the hard-core gamers. Accept it, let those players bitch and enjoy your playtime.
Nothing below PS was directed to who i quoted... its more directed to everyone (specially the tons of people who hate wow just because it is popular..)
My point just is.. the BIGGEST issues people have with WoW are in every game....
And the BIGGEST issue atm is.... WELFARE epics... you know what the issue was before welfare epics? People in the BEST gear having huge advantages...
My point just is every complaint towards WoW is usually invalid. There is no problem if you don't like it... but complaining about things every mmo has and using it as proof as do why it sucks is stupid.
(and of course this is not directed to you personally)
warning THIS IS A VERY VERY LONG POST warning
I stopped reading about halway through this post because i didn't hear too many thing that apply to the game itself. Many very general posts that almost all other MMOs have in them. If you want to argue how great WoW then know what other games have to offer so you have something to compare off of. If all you know is WoW and never played anything else of course WoW is going to be the greatest game ever. I on other hand have a stack of MMOs that i cry at every time i think how much money i paid and i don't even play it anymore. Anyways to get to the subject. WoW is not the great game alot of people want to think it is but it isn't that bad either. I will post good and bad on WoW and compare it to other games that are better or worse.
Performance and system 9/10
It is kind to systems. It uses a very good engine to make the rendering very easy but doesn't have the greatest graphics out there. Not a huge deal if it's greatest graphics if you can design things to look good. If you want to know what i am talking about look really close at your armor, it is basically a crayon drawing pasted over a very simple shell. They do make items such as Thunder Fury, Warlock S3 helm, most Teir 3 4 5 6, that they did a good job making it look good with using a simple shell to put it on. It is also lame though when my season 6 gloves are the same gloves i had when i was 40 just with a new paint job. Also really sucks that you can't dye your armor or do anything to make it yours. One thing that many many MMOs have in them. Guild wars did really good with this, EQ2 has alot of cool things you can do with armor too, and many more i will not spend time to mention. but i will talk more about that shortly. Comparing WoW to other games in performance it's very good and they don't have problems liek AoC or EQ2 where world enemys do alot of funky things and you have constant errors or bugs in system.
They did something smart when they made addons. It is mostly unique in way they did it and the scale it is used. You can't even play the game without the proper addons and blizzard in some cases builds there UI around an addon so that it works better. Goodjob blizzard this is one of the best things they did to game.
Easy to update, Easy to navigate, Easy to play
Content rated 5/10
This game has the worst content of almost any MMO i have played. It has no story lines to follow, this game has no cutscenes, this game has nothing that makes me feel like i am doing anything other then just killing the same boss over and over again. This is one of the reasons i leave this game over and over again. A little reason why i am doing something would go a long way in making it alot more enjoyable. I understand it is based off of Warcraft lore but that should make it even more story driven. It is based off a story that is already set in stone now make me have to go kill Prince or someone because thrall came to me and let me know the threat he poses on the horde. Something that makes it a story and not just "oh look a big drenai". They have books, they have games, they have the ability to build one of the best story based MMOs out there but don't bother to. They started to do a little bit of this in Caverns of Time but they never really finished it. Kinda a small glips of what they could do without fully doing it. Helping Thrall escape is probably one of my favorite things i have done in game, it sent me back to playing Warcraft and felt like i was doing something. One of my favorite MMOs i have ever played is FF11, It has one of the best story driven MMOs out there. You have a large endgame dedicated to doing missions to get better gear and see a great story. Granted you don't have anything for 75 levels and these are probably most painfull 75 levels in any MMO but it has one of best endgame contents of anything i have seen. It has great storys built into each expansion, it has a reason why i kill almost every boss i come accross, It has content that gives me rewards that make you feel like you earned them. LotRO is a very good story driven MMO, they did a very good job in this game making it to where you always have a good story to follow and deal of content even when leveling. I never did reach endgame on LotRO but i am seriously thinking about picking it back up again. Guildwars did a good job of making alot of content. AoC have a great deal of story and it's good, I just can't play the game on more then 40FPS and a system just setup to play it. It had many problems in game but there content wasn't one of them.
As far as armor and weapons and progression in raiding, It isn't that bad. They do allow constantly for people to raid and get more stuff. Add new dungeons all time which is great and something i wish more MMOs would do. They add more armor all time so even if your in full season 6 with great gear you still want to PvP to get honor and arena points for next season. In PvE they add more dungeons with more gear and different stats that can apply to many different fights which makes the need for more gear which makes more gameplay. They are very good in doing this so that they don't loose there endgame raiders to other game when they are sitting on best gear out there.
Classes crafting and skill rated 4/10
Start with classes.The day i started playing WoW was in the beta way back and i rolled a warlock originally and a warrior to start off with. Those two classes now are nothing like they use to be at all. They play different they have different roles and i don't even feel like the reason i started playing them is there anymore. This is one thing i hate about WoW and like is the progression of classes. I understand trying to balance classes so that everyone has fun but when you change a class so much that it plays different and has a new purpose in PvE and PvP then your creating a new class and ruin some peoples reasons why they play the class. This game is known for the nerf, the Over Powered classes and the broken abilitys. Even as of now abilitys i have had since launch get changed all the sudden after how many years. If it's been around for 5+ years now then why get rid of it or all sudden decide to change it. It's like they constantly are trying to screw with something to make it work and end up screwing something else up in process. I have seen OP classes get knocked to being completely broken then broken classes get knocked completely OP. They can't find that happy meduim so that all classes have a fair advantage in PvE and PvP to get usefull positions in raids, kill other classes, and not have to worry about being screwed up in the next patch. I look at patch notes in fear because i know they will change something and not sure if i am going to be the one that benifits or ends up getting screwed over because of it. This is stuff you do in the beta not years into it's launch. Make a class, build the class and tweak the class! don't just rip abilitys out of game and add new ones because your just going to screw something else up in process. I know people are going to post that you have to change the class to creat balance, but you should have made it balanced in first place in the beta thats why it is there. Now time to compare to other games. My favorite MMO of all time is still FF11 and this will give a good example of class building. I had a 75 sam 75 rdm 75 nin with all other classes to 50+ and the whole time i played the game only very slight changes where made to any 1 class to make them just slightly better or slightly worse at any 1 thing and it was usually just to make a class improve on it's weak spots. It a class didn't have any survivalbility they would add armor and a way to evade an attack but not so much that the class could never get hit again. They also made it where subclasses made you change your class up alot and in turn you could slightly make it your own by using abilitys from subclasses with mainclasses to do something different. This was a good build on classes in game, all the classes had a good position in "raids" and all the classes had the same chances as other ones ,for most part ,with subclasses. I really can not speak alot on this for most other games because i never really played them all the way to endgame and had time to see them all progress but i am sure most games have not seen the changes WoW has. I will end here i have more to say but it's getting too long.
Crafting is decent just wish it was harder and had more of a benifit. Most other games people have to look to crafters for items and help with gear or items, but in WoW it's like crafting is just kind of a thing there to take up space. It works a little bit for like alchamy and money making but as far as gear most of it is replaced so fast it wasn't worth making in first place. I like in other MMOs where some people don't even level or do endgame, they just sit and work on crafting all the time to get it higher and make rare items. Some people enjoy this and can build a whole game off crafting to become a merchant. They did add plenty of crafts out there and it does contribute so they did ok on this.
Ok last one! Skill. I have seen more skill in a 5 year old trying to stay inside the lines then it requires to play this game. Bosses are boring and easy and just require someone with gear and the ability to stay awake long enough to not do something stupid to defeat. I can't believe how easy some endgame can be and how few people get to high end raids. I am not talking about kara or even gruuls lair, I am talking about SSC, Hyjal, Mag, and even BT. These things are simple compared to other endgame MMOs. Most of this games endgame is purely based on gear and not on the ability of the player. FF11 i know i reference alot but it's what i know best so i use it rather then pretending i know about something i don't, anyways in FF11 gear had very little to do with things. It was huge to get +3 to a stat and even the best geared person had little advantage when it came to skill in that game. Fight required every single person to pay attention and if someone died in a hard fight it usually ment a wipe. It was very tense fight and the missions in game required everything you could get to get past them. Not only that but at level 70 you had to past a test which was purely based on how good you are called Maat. You basically had to fight yourself in order to level past 70 and it was a hard fight for most classes. I love a challenge but this game has rarely offered anything more then me having to slightly pay attention for a moment. If this game is hard to you then you are in right spot and never change MMOs because you wouldn't believe some other fights i have seen and been part of in other MMOs. In a kirin fight in FF11 for a just common linksell took atleast 2-3 hours to kills a single boss. Not only that but in order to get to kirin you had to work the whole week killing the 4 other gods and in order to get to them you had to kill 2 bosses for each one which are on a world spawn timer of 2 hours to 6 hours a spawn time. Not only that but This boss could 1 shot almost anyone he hit and you didn't get a 2nd chance you either killed him or it was onto next weeks try because you lost your orb to summon him if you wipe. Oh yea and about kirin while fighting him he summons all 4 gods into the fight at same time which are just as strong as when you fight them outside, which makes it like Rag summoning every boss you had to fight all the way up to him in the middle of the fight. Like I said if you think this games hard then your right where you should be.
Just as a final note right now i am leveling a warlock and i have a 70 hunter 70 druid 70 shaman 70 warrior on horde and a 70 alliance druid. I am still playing the game sometimes along with other games so something keeps bringing me back to game. I would still play FF11 but i don't have time to anymore, one of the downfalls of game is it takes up every waking moment to play. I might pick up Requime, LotRO, or EQ2 again soon but mostly i am just holding out for AION. AION looks amazing and everything i want in a MMO.
If you managed to read this whole thing congrats and sorry it's so long but remember i took the time to write it so don't knock me for making it this long. Also post is called LONG LIST of why WoW doesn't suck.
Also for anyone who wants to comment on my grammer, spelling, choice of words, or even the fact i like a game remember i don't care about a word you say just save yourself some time and don't bother posting. This does not pertain to people who want an intelligent conversation i will take any openions and thoughts anyone wants to post.
hi
No the fast food analogy is worse than the Walmart one. They tend to lack similar facts, do not represent to similar products well and most often tend to be used to illicit an negative image/emotion in place of any real substance of an argument. Just because they share a few similarities doesn't make them representative of the other.
Walmart for example tends to be associated with a company that puts poor old mom and pop out of business and on the street, sells nothing but foreign products made by child labor and also takes away local jobs, the home of mouth breathing shoppers, etc. Do you ever notice why people who use analogies and WoW never use anything but products that have a negative image? Honestly, go look at how the Walmart analogy was used in this thread. As if WoW is somehow putting mom and pop games out of business? I understood the original analogy very well, maybe you need to stop trying to make it work so hard in a situation where it doesn't.
You yourself used that analogy to incorrectly labels WoW players as unwilling to "shop" anywhere else for an MMO as if they somehow do so for the same reason as Walmart shoppers. It is easy to make anything seem like reality when you dilute a subject by talking about an analogy instead. Just because WoW and Walmart are both popular it doesn't mean they are so for the same reasons and everything about the two businesses is indentical.
I'm sorry if I come off as defensive, but it gets really tiresome hearing people make a statement about a game and then try to have a discussion about how hamburgers or walmart are bad and that somehow makes their initial comment valid. I would rather those people just go back to saying "WoW is teh sux" and then leave the discussion.
No the fast food analogy is worse than the Walmart one. They tend to lack similar facts, do not represent to similar products well and most often tend to be used to illicit an negative image/emotion in place of any real substance of an argument. Just because they share a few similarities doesn't make them representative of the other.
Walmart for example tends to be associated with a company that puts poor old mom and pop out of business and on the street, sells nothing but foreign products made by child labor and also takes away local jobs, the home of mouth breathing shoppers, etc. Do you ever notice why people who use analogies and WoW never use anything but products that have a negative image? Honestly, go look at how the Walmart analogy was used in this thread. As if WoW is somehow putting mom and pop games out of business? I understood the original analogy very well, maybe you need to stop trying to make it work so hard in a situation where it doesn't.
You yourself used that analogy to incorrectly labels WoW players as unwilling to "shop" anywhere else for an MMO as if they somehow do so for the same reason as Walmart shoppers. It is easy to make anything seem like reality when you dilute a subject by talking about an analogy instead. Just because WoW and Walmart are both popular it doesn't mean they are so for the same reasons and everything about the two businesses is indentical.
I'm sorry if I come off as defensive, but it gets really tiresome hearing people make a statement about a game and then try to have a discussion about how hamburgers or walmart are bad and that somehow makes their initial comment valid. I would rather those people just go back to saying "WoW is teh sux" and then leave the discussion.
10/10
P.S-You do not have to apologize
I corrected a few of your points there. :P
Just to say ONCE more that
PvP in World of Warcraft has the BEST animation of all MMORPG's.
And with Arena Blizzard has a tool in which 3vs3 and 5vs5 battles can assemble millions of data to analyse and sharpen its classes.
NO other MMORPG comes even close to the resources Blizzard has to develop these classes.
Just look at Conan HOW bad the competition is at the moment in this respect.
As for the animation : WAR is a real LAUGH in PvP combat: S L O W, C L U N K Y and "floating" characters that seem to glide on a moon surface in ALL videos shown on the web. It's not even HALF of the fighting speeds seen in Wow.
WAR is DAoC all over again - and you ALL know the balance of classes in DAoC was a real laugh !!!!.
Hundred times worse than Wow 3 years ago - and now with Arena as a sample of millions of fights, you BET WotLK will have real POWER in those open world PvP combats.
So Wow has the BEST PvP fighting animations, the MOST money behind it to balance it through the millions of data gathered in Arena and the ONLY game out there with complete open world Sieges in the new expansion zone. Even WAR and Conan have parts of these sieges 'instanced".
Not even talking of the air combat, the manned tank units, the underwater worlds and of course its HUGE PVE raid and dungeon content, ALL can be visited with 10 men raids in the new expansion btw.
yep ...
It is THAT good.
Just ONE comment:
The AVERAGE review of WOW on the web of ALL INDEPENDANT sources was ... 93%
So I think you have a little problem there
And I would very much thank you for playing this game for .... 3(?) years if you wouldn't even grade it with a 5.
next
Just ONE comment:
The AVERAGE review of WOW on the web of ALL INDEPENDANT sources was ... 93%
So I think you have a little problem there
And I would very much thank you for playing this game for .... 3(?) years if you wouldn't even grade it with a 5.
next
Show me any review on WoW that has a 93% positive rating. If you have ever come to this website you would know a very large amount of people are pissed off at WoW and that would be more of a 70% if it is real.
You know what they call it when people partially qoute a statement to show what they want it to say rather then what it did say, Plagerism! If you are going to quote anything i said quote the whole thing and show a very accurate example. Yes i said i play the game still on and off, but remember everytime i go back i quit shortly after again and pick up a new game. I can't stand to play WoW for longer then a few months at most. So yes i rated as i see fit and please show me anyplace WoW gets a 93% approval rating.
hi
Just ONE comment:
The AVERAGE review of WOW on the web of ALL INDEPENDANT sources was ... 93%
So I think you have a little problem there
And I would very much thank you for playing this game for .... 3(?) years if you wouldn't even grade it with a 5.
next
Show me any review on WoW that has a 93% positive rating. If you have ever come to this website you would know a very large amount of people are pissed off at WoW and that would be more of a 70% if it is real.
You know what they call it when people partially qoute a statement to show what they want it to say rather then what it did say, Plagerism! If you are going to quote anything i said quote the whole thing and show a very accurate example. Yes i said i play the game still on and off, but remember everytime i go back i quit shortly after again and pick up a new game. I can't stand to play WoW for longer then a few months at most. So yes i rated as i see fit and please show me anyplace WoW gets a 93% approval rating.
Reviewers http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcraft?q=world%20of%20warcraft AVG 93%
If approval you mean player reviews then almost all games hang around tht 70-80% mark due to people posting 0% and 100% scores.
WoW has been a great game but I quit it to go to AOC...but now I sold my AOC account and plan on re-buying WoW....why? Because their isn't crap out there right now and i'm tired of paying for garbage MMO's. Payed for Vanguard....garbage...paid for AOC...garbage...tired of it. WoW might be repetitive but at least there is a community so it doesn't get bored.
This is a very longstanding gripe with WoW that Blizzard has only made worse and worse. The so called "PVP" servers really don't have much PVP in them at all. Oh sure you might get ganked here or there in certain areas but, for the most part, most PVP takes place in battleground instances not in cities or other areas outside of the battlegrounds.
Why is this? Well Blizzard's PVP system provides the vast majority of players with incentives to sit in battlegrounds all day instead of going out into Azeroth or Outland. And if any bold players decide to take over the town or city of the other faction, high level guards swarm the raid and it just ends up mostly being an exercise in paying large sums of money for gold repairs.
World PVP is basically dead, for the most part, in WoW. The so-called "PVP" servers are nothing more than modified PVE servers that punish players who decide to really get out there and do some serious ganking or raiding of cities, etc.
I hear the fast food analogy waaaay too often and can't take credit for it. It is not something created on these boards alone. It's everywhere. That being said, I don't fully agree with the fast food analogy but I do agree with WoW = Walmart. It's only a matter of time before Blizzard outsources their call centers which will lead to loss of local (N. America) jobs. I do believe WoW players are less likely to try smaller niche games because WoW has everything they need, much like Walmart does for my mother.
AOC players are probably a good deal of former WoW players that were into the existing IP. Saying AOC got WoW players is like saying Bioware's new MMO will take WoW players as will LOTRO2, Star Trek Online, or any other game based on an existing IP. I am talking about a new game with new lore and no previous IP. Those games will never get a chance to succeed. So, in order to have a hope of competing, these new companies are forced to emulate the WoW format which will (sort of) give WoW players something new if they choose to get out of their comfort zone they have established already in WoW. Hardcore WoW players have multiple level 70s. They are kings among men. To drop that all for a new game is daunting because these kings are now commoners like everyone else. For my mother, that is not something she looks forward to, which is why she will play WoW forever and shop at Walmart forever.
I don't think WoW sucks, as I played it for over two years off and on. I think Blizzard is taking advantage of their subscribers.
10 million subscribers x $15 per month = $150 MILLION PER MONTH!!! Anyone that plays WoW and doesn't resent the fact that there has only been one released expansion in 4 years should question that. What is the money going to? It's not graphical updates or expansions. I've stated in a thread a while ago that with funding like that, any existing or soon-to-be-released game could move mountains. There are a ton of so-so games right now that could benefit from 3 days' worth of Blizzard's Subscription revenue to turn their game into a blockbuster.
PS. Someone mentioned free content earlier. A couple battlegrounds and a couple new areas in 4 years isn't a lot of free content. If gamers are into free content, they should check out LOTRO. That game understands free content.
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