Lets say I wanted a game focused on PvP endgame. How would you balance things if there were no classes? And how would you promote teamwork and roles within groups? (not asking rethorically btw, I'm really wondering if you guys have some good ideas).
Endgame? This term was invented once limited class based games came along.
UO and Eve online, dont have endgames. They are sandbox virtual worlds with economies and risk/reward.
imo MMORPGs shouldnt have 'endgames'
You can't have an ENDgame when there is no BEGININGgame, MIDDLEgame or content that could be desicribed as a GAME at all. Theres is no game there. You're just existing in a virtual space chatting and collecting virtual wealth and you either find it fun or not. Most people don't. WHen theres no actual reason to play, its hard to give something an "end". In order to have an end you have to run out of content and when the game doesn't have any content in the 1st place, you can't run out of it, can you? Thats why those games only appeal to niche audiences.
You reach the endgame in UO and Eve the minute you log in, find it boring because you don't know what the point of all of it is and uninstall an hour later.
Originally posted by Josher You reach the endgame in UO and Eve the minute you log in, find it boring because you don't know what the point of all of it is and uninstall an hour later.
Some people need their hands held and given a linear path to the end, some people want to explore and learn by showing initiative and creativity making their own destinty. Two different types of player, two different game styles.
Originally posted by Josher You reach the endgame in UO and Eve the minute you log in, find it boring because you don't know what the point of all of it is and uninstall an hour later.
Some people need their hands held and given a linear path to the end, some people want to explore and learn by showing initiative and creativity making their own destinty. Two different types of player, two different game styles.
But most people would rather to both. Explore and do things on their own, be creative at time, be fed at times, and most importantly have a reason for doing any of it. This is where there is REAL CHOICE. I chose what I want to do and how I want to do it.
There are more than just 2 types of playstyles, if anything it is a continuum.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
1. A good skill based game will limit how much stuff you learn/do
2. A good skill based game will make it difficult to completely redesign your character.
Using the logic of "changing any time you want!" "be whatever you want" are idealistic trash. There will never be a mmo where you can just click a button and change from mage to warrior. NEVER.
And really, what you people are doing(which i have stated before but no one listens). Is comparing levels vs skill increases.
Classes are not inherent to leveling, and skills are not immune to a lack of grind. For example, look at ryzom, it has skill based characters, and it is a grind. Then look at guild wars, it has classes, but almost no grind.
Please stop using the "leveling" talk in a skill vs class debate. It really isn't appropriate.
Then we get into the heart of the matter.
Customization vs Uniqueness.
1. Skill based-customization.
In this system you can basically create what you want. But at the same time, There are less actual unique abilities and skills, and the ones that do exist generally are limited in scope to interact with other abilities. For example two handed fighters are the same, whereas in a class game, two classes can use two handed weapons, and not be the same.
Then you get your magic and crafting thrown in.
Is crafting aprt of your combat skills? It doesn't have to be, you can assume it is, but thats a false assumption. If not, then ignore it, and if it is, unless chars are limited one per account, if someone was truely interested in crafting AND adventuring then I will tell you this. No character is going to gimp himself by taking crafting lines, there will be craft alts and adventure alts.
Then we get into magic. You can lace your abilities together all you want, you bring yourself in archetypes. You never truely create anything actually unique.
Melee
Spell damage
Healing
Ranged
Stealth
Theres only so many ways to lace them together in a system with limited skill points.
It's a illusion of freedom, you may think "wow look im this uber melee caster healer. HAzaaaa" Truth is, you basically did the same thing as chose a class in a class based system, the difference is the assumption that you can respec and change. Which again isn't a gaurantee in a skill based game.
You never create anything unique. You just have to chose each individual piece, and each piece generally has far less flavor.
For example, let's use a earlier listed skill based game(oblivion). Are there a giant variety of melee choices? Archery choices? Spell choices(a bit here). The difference is you can take your melee, and then do some respectable ranged damage, or spells. And you chose it to match your style. But when choosing classes you basically do the same, only instead of piece by piece, you choose a whole section at once, and then alter it your own way.
Then compare it to wow. Does a rogue play like a war? A ret paladin like a warrior? A enhancement shaman like a warrior?
2. Uniqueness- Class based
First off i'll state that i mean uniqueness in the class, not you in comparison to others.
When a class is designed, it allows a developer to piece together all the pieces of the skill based game, IN MORE DEPTH, and to design it to be it's own entity. No longer does your group heal have to be balanced around the aoe spell damage heavy armored stealther. So the class itself has more flavor.
But this is often ignored due to the fact that each class is basically the same versus others of the same class, so while your class is unique itself, you yourself are not, and then you falsely assume you aren't unique.
Again using wow as a example. A mage, a warlock, a elemental shaman, a shadow priest, and a hunter, are all vastly different from each other. Sure you can say "they all just spam their attack" While this is true in a pve environment, you have to realize that a skill based game is essentially the same thing. If you honestly think in a serious pve environment that any form of uniqueness will be retained, your dead wrong. Frankly nobody will take you if your a little of everything, they'll take your heavy dps builds, your heavy tank builds, your heavy healing builds. The poor little hybrids won't get into slots.
PvE content, in a large scale, or group environment, simply doesn't work well in a situation where someone who isn't specialized can excel. simply because it's impossible to dps and heal at the same time. Try playing a 50/50 ret/holy paladin in wow. You won't get into raids, simply because a pure spec would be better in that slot.
If your trying to base the entire game around soloing and your interactions within the world solo. Then your not going to have a successful mmo.
Then we look into class games like daoc. Bonedancers, necromancers, theurgists, animists, banshees, heretics, all could not exist within a skill based game. There can be pet casters sure, but there will never be the individuality displayed within these, simply because it would be impossible to balance around every other skill.
And frankly, those daoc classes, the wow classes, vanguard classes, etc, all have far more uniqueness in them, then anything that came out of UO or oblivion.
But again, it wasn't your custom build. But is it worth it? Playing generic style classes in exchange for freedom in becoming that generic class? Not really.
Then we get into the also possible customization within classes. Some are more drastic then others. For example a paladin in WoW, can tank encounters, can heal encounters, and can dps in encounters due to his spec.
But he can not change into a archer, or a mage. He is always a paladin, but again, hes a more unique paladin then the heavy armor, two handed weapons, healing of a skill based game.
So at the end of the day, neither system is inherently better. The thing is, it just depends on the game that uses each system, and what it wants to do with them.
I'm a fan of classes personally but there is a big weakness of them; they get very boring when you play them x number of levels and play the same role over and over and get the same spell upgrades over and over.
I'm a fan of classes personally but there is a big weakness of them; they get very boring when you play them x number of levels and play the same role over and over and get the same spell upgrades over and over
Skill based has the same problem.
Remember leveling is not related to classes, and insta respeccing/any respeccing, is not inherent in a skill based system.
I don't mind class based games really, but level based games have worn on my last nerve, especially when PVP is involved.
I want to be competitive from a PVP perspective from the moment I step into the game. (yes, I know, go play a shooter or GW)
I'm not saying I should be able to totally own..but in my perfect world, 2 or 3 newly created characters would be able to take down the longest playing veteran if they managed to catch him out alone amd get the jump on him.
Tough system to design and keep interesting I suppose.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't mind class based games really, but level based games have worn on my last nerve, especially when PVP is involved. I want to be competitive from a PVP perspective from the moment I step into the game. (yes, I know, go play a shooter or GW) I'm not saying I should be able to totally own..but in my perfect world, 2 or 3 newly created characters would be able to take down the longest playing veteran if they managed to catch him out alone amd get the jump on him. Tough system to design and keep interesting I suppose.
With a system such as this, the game can not have any pve aspect, but rather have it's entire game focus'd and solely balanced around pvp.
PvE and a non progression based PvP system are two cars that can't fit into the same lane.
Now, as i posted in another thread recently, the system would have to be totally around PvP. No monsters, no items to farm as a drop. Just crafting, and PvP.
Perhaps a real way to create nations and world powers rather then just placing a city there and it's just your guilds city. Rather have the city grow, and adopt in other people untill it's large enough to rival any mmo capital city. Perhaps even able to destroy a npc capital.
A good system to balance the players ability to exceed npcs, have a second system build into the client but only accessable by gms or special hires, who basically run the npc empires to compete with the players. Therefore the npcs wouldnt be monsters, but rather replacement players.
Classes would still work, and so would a skill based system, but leveling wouldn't have a real place. Rather it would just be refining the skills you are assigned.
Personally, I like the idea of classes. Classes can be very fun if executed properly. I just don't like the generic classes most mmo's seem to be using. Who says a game with classes has to be level based? Ultima Online has classes.
Not going to comment on this thread, just wanted to say this. Bladin, that is by far and away one of the best post I've read on these forums all year. I agree with pretty much the entire point you were trying to get across.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
It really surprises me that the people who say "Why won't somebody make a skill based MMORPG?" when the answer to that is quite obvious. I mean, did you never wonder WHY MMORPG's became so popular AFTER the skill system was thrown away? The reason why so many mmorpg development companies are using a class system over a skill system is because it's more accessible. Having so many skills to advance makes the game unnecessary complicated for both the player and the developer. Balancing a skill system is a lot harder than balancing classes because you have to take a nearly unlimited amount of possibilities into consideration, and players are going to be confused what stat to raise, how to raise them and how to build an effective character. Too many choices is like having no choice, which is why the system was abandoned, and just look at which MMORPG's are the most popular: It's not the skill based ones, thats for sure.
Alas, these are the very reasons why so many of us are at this site, waiting for something. People don't want to have to think anymore. They don't want to learn something new. They don't want to research how to be the best. The masses want instant gratification, spoonfed, optionless game play. What accompanies this style of game play is sheer boredom. While these companies chase the masses of "normal" people that don't want to have to work or spend time for anything, the true gamers are sitting around, looking at what we have to play, and are very very bored. There are only a few games that are outside of the box currently, and Eve being the best example of a very successful outside the box game.
Skill systems aren't complicated. They take a little thought and research, testing and building to understand. Do the masses want to do these things to play a game? No. But a lot of true gamers do. Frankly, I won't be upset if a game is made for the gamers.
Why does every mmo that releases now thinks that in order to be successful you need to have classes? It is just stupid; classes limit customizability and cause you to reroll when you decide that you don’t want to play that class anymore. If you don’t want to reroll you will just quit the game all together and I doubt developers want that. It limits pvp to a rock paper scissors match. Take pvp in WoW for example if you play a warrior and see a mage it doesn’t matter if you have more skill and better gear you will still lose just because the class is made to kill you. And if the classes aren’t fair at release (they never are) the developers have to take time to nerf some classes and buff others, time that could be used to add more content to the game. I think Oblivion and Morrowind are perfect examples on how a no class game can work. If you don’t like the way you built your character you can just use a different type of weapon/armor/magic. You should make your own destiny instead have the developers hold your hand the entire game. /end rant
If you dont want they hold your hand play eve or wait for Darkfall.
Sandbox is future not themeparks like WoW:p
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
In my opinion, the only reason to reroll is because of a lack in responsibility or utility in a setting. I won't create an alt if I am enjoying the purpose of the one I have. Therefore, creating classless environments would make it easy for my build to be cloned in a short period and I would have to reroll/alt more often.
In fact, the only thing I don't like about WoW is that talents can be re-spec'd. However, I know that I am in the minority on this factor so I will make due with it.
Comments
Endgame? This term was invented once limited class based games came along.
UO and Eve online, dont have endgames. They are sandbox virtual worlds with economies and risk/reward.
imo MMORPGs shouldnt have 'endgames'
You can't have an ENDgame when there is no BEGININGgame, MIDDLEgame or content that could be desicribed as a GAME at all. Theres is no game there. You're just existing in a virtual space chatting and collecting virtual wealth and you either find it fun or not. Most people don't. WHen theres no actual reason to play, its hard to give something an "end". In order to have an end you have to run out of content and when the game doesn't have any content in the 1st place, you can't run out of it, can you? Thats why those games only appeal to niche audiences.
You reach the endgame in UO and Eve the minute you log in, find it boring because you don't know what the point of all of it is and uninstall an hour later.
Some people need their hands held and given a linear path to the end, some people want to explore and learn by showing initiative and creativity making their own destinty. Two different types of player, two different game styles.
Some people need their hands held and given a linear path to the end, some people want to explore and learn by showing initiative and creativity making their own destinty. Two different types of player, two different game styles.
But most people would rather to both. Explore and do things on their own, be creative at time, be fed at times, and most importantly have a reason for doing any of it. This is where there is REAL CHOICE. I chose what I want to do and how I want to do it.
There are more than just 2 types of playstyles, if anything it is a continuum.
Venge Sunsoar
Here are some points.
1. A good skill based game will limit how much stuff you learn/do
2. A good skill based game will make it difficult to completely redesign your character.
Using the logic of "changing any time you want!" "be whatever you want" are idealistic trash. There will never be a mmo where you can just click a button and change from mage to warrior. NEVER.
And really, what you people are doing(which i have stated before but no one listens). Is comparing levels vs skill increases.
Classes are not inherent to leveling, and skills are not immune to a lack of grind. For example, look at ryzom, it has skill based characters, and it is a grind. Then look at guild wars, it has classes, but almost no grind.
Please stop using the "leveling" talk in a skill vs class debate. It really isn't appropriate.
Then we get into the heart of the matter.
Customization vs Uniqueness.
1. Skill based-customization.
In this system you can basically create what you want. But at the same time, There are less actual unique abilities and skills, and the ones that do exist generally are limited in scope to interact with other abilities. For example two handed fighters are the same, whereas in a class game, two classes can use two handed weapons, and not be the same.
Then you get your magic and crafting thrown in.
Is crafting aprt of your combat skills? It doesn't have to be, you can assume it is, but thats a false assumption. If not, then ignore it, and if it is, unless chars are limited one per account, if someone was truely interested in crafting AND adventuring then I will tell you this. No character is going to gimp himself by taking crafting lines, there will be craft alts and adventure alts.
Then we get into magic. You can lace your abilities together all you want, you bring yourself in archetypes. You never truely create anything actually unique.
Melee
Spell damage
Healing
Ranged
Stealth
Theres only so many ways to lace them together in a system with limited skill points.
It's a illusion of freedom, you may think "wow look im this uber melee caster healer. HAzaaaa" Truth is, you basically did the same thing as chose a class in a class based system, the difference is the assumption that you can respec and change. Which again isn't a gaurantee in a skill based game.
You never create anything unique. You just have to chose each individual piece, and each piece generally has far less flavor.
For example, let's use a earlier listed skill based game(oblivion). Are there a giant variety of melee choices? Archery choices? Spell choices(a bit here). The difference is you can take your melee, and then do some respectable ranged damage, or spells. And you chose it to match your style. But when choosing classes you basically do the same, only instead of piece by piece, you choose a whole section at once, and then alter it your own way.
Then compare it to wow. Does a rogue play like a war? A ret paladin like a warrior? A enhancement shaman like a warrior?
2. Uniqueness- Class based
First off i'll state that i mean uniqueness in the class, not you in comparison to others.
When a class is designed, it allows a developer to piece together all the pieces of the skill based game, IN MORE DEPTH, and to design it to be it's own entity. No longer does your group heal have to be balanced around the aoe spell damage heavy armored stealther. So the class itself has more flavor.
But this is often ignored due to the fact that each class is basically the same versus others of the same class, so while your class is unique itself, you yourself are not, and then you falsely assume you aren't unique.
Again using wow as a example. A mage, a warlock, a elemental shaman, a shadow priest, and a hunter, are all vastly different from each other. Sure you can say "they all just spam their attack" While this is true in a pve environment, you have to realize that a skill based game is essentially the same thing. If you honestly think in a serious pve environment that any form of uniqueness will be retained, your dead wrong. Frankly nobody will take you if your a little of everything, they'll take your heavy dps builds, your heavy tank builds, your heavy healing builds. The poor little hybrids won't get into slots.
PvE content, in a large scale, or group environment, simply doesn't work well in a situation where someone who isn't specialized can excel. simply because it's impossible to dps and heal at the same time. Try playing a 50/50 ret/holy paladin in wow. You won't get into raids, simply because a pure spec would be better in that slot.
If your trying to base the entire game around soloing and your interactions within the world solo. Then your not going to have a successful mmo.
Then we look into class games like daoc. Bonedancers, necromancers, theurgists, animists, banshees, heretics, all could not exist within a skill based game. There can be pet casters sure, but there will never be the individuality displayed within these, simply because it would be impossible to balance around every other skill.
And frankly, those daoc classes, the wow classes, vanguard classes, etc, all have far more uniqueness in them, then anything that came out of UO or oblivion.
But again, it wasn't your custom build. But is it worth it? Playing generic style classes in exchange for freedom in becoming that generic class? Not really.
Then we get into the also possible customization within classes. Some are more drastic then others. For example a paladin in WoW, can tank encounters, can heal encounters, and can dps in encounters due to his spec.
But he can not change into a archer, or a mage. He is always a paladin, but again, hes a more unique paladin then the heavy armor, two handed weapons, healing of a skill based game.
So at the end of the day, neither system is inherently better. The thing is, it just depends on the game that uses each system, and what it wants to do with them.
It just comes down to making this decision.
I'm a fan of classes personally but there is a big weakness of them; they get very boring when you play them x number of levels and play the same role over and over and get the same spell upgrades over and over.
Skill based has the same problem.
Remember leveling is not related to classes, and insta respeccing/any respeccing, is not inherent in a skill based system.
I don't mind class based games really, but level based games have worn on my last nerve, especially when PVP is involved.
I want to be competitive from a PVP perspective from the moment I step into the game. (yes, I know, go play a shooter or GW)
I'm not saying I should be able to totally own..but in my perfect world, 2 or 3 newly created characters would be able to take down the longest playing veteran if they managed to catch him out alone amd get the jump on him.
Tough system to design and keep interesting I suppose.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
With a system such as this, the game can not have any pve aspect, but rather have it's entire game focus'd and solely balanced around pvp.
PvE and a non progression based PvP system are two cars that can't fit into the same lane.
Now, as i posted in another thread recently, the system would have to be totally around PvP. No monsters, no items to farm as a drop. Just crafting, and PvP.
Perhaps a real way to create nations and world powers rather then just placing a city there and it's just your guilds city. Rather have the city grow, and adopt in other people untill it's large enough to rival any mmo capital city. Perhaps even able to destroy a npc capital.
A good system to balance the players ability to exceed npcs, have a second system build into the client but only accessable by gms or special hires, who basically run the npc empires to compete with the players. Therefore the npcs wouldnt be monsters, but rather replacement players.
Classes would still work, and so would a skill based system, but leveling wouldn't have a real place. Rather it would just be refining the skills you are assigned.
Personally, I like the idea of classes. Classes can be very fun if executed properly. I just don't like the generic classes most mmo's seem to be using. Who says a game with classes has to be level based? Ultima Online has classes.
Not going to comment on this thread, just wanted to say this. Bladin, that is by far and away one of the best post I've read on these forums all year. I agree with pretty much the entire point you were trying to get across.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Graypixie sure has a point there!
Alas, these are the very reasons why so many of us are at this site, waiting for something. People don't want to have to think anymore. They don't want to learn something new. They don't want to research how to be the best. The masses want instant gratification, spoonfed, optionless game play. What accompanies this style of game play is sheer boredom. While these companies chase the masses of "normal" people that don't want to have to work or spend time for anything, the true gamers are sitting around, looking at what we have to play, and are very very bored. There are only a few games that are outside of the box currently, and Eve being the best example of a very successful outside the box game.
Skill systems aren't complicated. They take a little thought and research, testing and building to understand. Do the masses want to do these things to play a game? No. But a lot of true gamers do. Frankly, I won't be upset if a game is made for the gamers.
Couldn't agree more!
If you dont want they hold your hand play eve or wait for Darkfall.
Sandbox is future not themeparks like WoW:p
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I hate having preset classes in my MMO's.
eve has spoiled me
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
In my opinion, the only reason to reroll is because of a lack in responsibility or utility in a setting. I won't create an alt if I am enjoying the purpose of the one I have. Therefore, creating classless environments would make it easy for my build to be cloned in a short period and I would have to reroll/alt more often.
In fact, the only thing I don't like about WoW is that talents can be re-spec'd. However, I know that I am in the minority on this factor so I will make due with it.