A good number of us are in beta could argue with you but we can't. We could be we can't.
But it sounds to me like you just don't MMORPGs. How much would it cost to try it? The price of two dinners? It's new, many people playing say it's great? So what not just try it and then judge? I mean really.
GreenChaos, be fair.
I am pretty sure that it was you who told me "it sounds to me like you just don't MMORPGs" before when I had issues playing AoC. In fact, your entire post seems pulled out of the AoC forums a bit before and after its release.
The OP has very valid points about such things as the classes and the skirmishes, I absolutely see it for myself. I don't believe there is any real meaningful variety in the classes, and the skirmishes look exactly like WoW battlegrounds. All with slightly better graphics, but still.
There might be other aspects that still tip the scale in favor of WAR, and the points may not be as severe or detrimental, but I'm watching from the sidelines this time around.
Meaningful variety in classes? They have pet classes, melee classes, Tanks, Melee healers, Ranged Healers, Casters, Physical ranged, Caster/healers. What more do you want?
Scenarios are like WoW battlegrounds except they are timed and short instead of the 30minute AB/EotS games and hour long WSG games.
There is tons of land to fight over, the battles will never be the same day to day. You wont be taking a city daily...more like montly.
This is a PvP game. There are games like CS that have had the same maps for YEARS and people still play them. You are talking to someone that played AA:O Bridge and then Bridge SE for 2 years straight. The thrill is in the battle, not the surroundings.
The PVP concerns that were outlined by the OP are legit even if he did not structure his post in a meaningful way.
When it comes down to it a certain few classes will be played by most serious PVPers. More specifically the ranged classes because range is easier to coordinate to focus fire and call out targets using vent or teamspeak which most serious PVP guilds do. Unless melee classes have ways of closing the gap significantly in a timely manner then no matter how much damage they do it will be meaningless to play a melee class.
PVP balance between ranged classes versus melee classes has always been difficult. WoW is currently melee centric while L2 has been for the most part range centric. But I do not know of a ranged class in L2 that can project long range attacks while moving. This to me is very, very concerning.
Nothing against DAOC but I am not sure many of the mechanics will be embraced by the current PVP generation which expect ranged classes having to pause a bit before delivering a ranged attack.
The PVP concerns that were outlined by the OP are legit even if he did not structure his post in a meaningful way. When it comes down to it a certain few classes will be played by most serious PVPers. More specifically the ranged classes because range is easier to coordinate to focus fire and call out targets using vent or teamspeak which most serious PVP guilds do. Unless melee classes have ways of closing the gap significantly in a timely manner then no matter how much damage they do it will be meaningless to play a melee class. PVP balance between ranged classes versus melee classes has always been difficult. WoW is currently melee centric while L2 has been for the most part range centric. But I do not know of a ranged class in L2 that can project long range attacks while moving. This to me is very, very concerning. Nothing against DAOC but I am not sure many of the mechanics will be embraced by the current PVP generation which expect ranged classes having to pause a bit before delivering a ranged attack.
That might be true... but Mythic is doing all they can to make PvE skills useful in PvP...
In one video i think they mentiond that you can taunt in PvP and that's one of the ways they are trying to make tanks be tanks even in PvP (i seen the beta leaked info on how that skill works and it's fun IMHO). They also mentioned that tanks will have abilityes like auras that make team members do more damage for the damage the team takes untill the tank dies, so if you don't kill the tank fastthe team gets a huge damage boost and you don't want that ( it was on a vid i think where they explained the math behind mmorpgs)... So this wont be your standard "kill the priest first and they all die" mmorpg... it will have a lot more tactics and skills that make you think before you act instead of just focusing on the clothys...
Ofc, i cant comment on the status of the beta since i'm not in it... but so far i'm sure they have the balance stuff sorted out and a blanced team with tanks, healers, melee and ranged working together will have the upper hand over a team of all ranged or all melee or even a team without tanks or healers... Guess we'll have to wait till the NDA falls... again )
I am wondering: Why even bother with the 1st 40 levels then ? Why not get rid of the old leveling up mechanism ?
Well originally they wanted to do away with levels altogether...
However it turned out that this concept would be waay too much for your average WoW-er who gets lost without a bar filling up to show him how "well" he is doing.
This is an OK compromise I suppose. T1-3 are an introduction for the real game which starts at T4 with 80 renown ranks, guild levels, tome unlocks etc. That's another reason I find those so-called Open servers so pointless. At T4 there should be no discernible difference between Open and Core. It's dumb to screw up the game's balance with a new ruleset just so you can play "tough" in what is, essentially, just a prolonged tutorial.
The PVP concerns that were outlined by the OP are legit even if he did not structure his post in a meaningful way. When it comes down to it a certain few classes will be played by most serious PVPers. More specifically the ranged classes because range is easier to coordinate to focus fire and call out targets using vent or teamspeak which most serious PVP guilds do. Unless melee classes have ways of closing the gap significantly in a timely manner then no matter how much damage they do it will be meaningless to play a melee class. PVP balance between ranged classes versus melee classes has always been difficult. WoW is currently melee centric while L2 has been for the most part range centric. But I do not know of a ranged class in L2 that can project long range attacks while moving. This to me is very, very concerning. Nothing against DAOC but I am not sure many of the mechanics will be embraced by the current PVP generation which expect ranged classes having to pause a bit before delivering a ranged attack.
That might be true... but Mythic is doing all they can to make PvE skills useful in PvP...
In one video i think they mentiond that you can taunt in PvP and that's one of the ways they are trying to make tanks be tanks even in PvP (i seen the beta leaked info on how that skill works and it's fun IMHO). They also mentioned that tanks will have abilityes like auras that make team members do more damage for the damage the team takes untill the tank dies, so if you don't kill the tank fastthe team gets a huge damage boost and you don't want that ( it was on a vid i think where they explained the math behind mmorpgs)... So this wont be your standard "kill the priest first and they all die" mmorpg... it will have a lot more tactics and skills that make you think before you act instead of just focusing on the clothys...
Tanks taunting isn't a new mechanic in MMORPG PVP and has been done before. I have yet to encounter a MMORPG where a tank taunting in PVP has been highly effective.
Auras for tanks are a good/bad idea depending on how they are implimented. If it requires the tank to be in range of other party members than this can be easily overcome. If it is simply whomever is in your party then obviously it can not be circumvented.
Warning: I am Dissing WAR I honestly forsee this game being very bad, ive researched it quite a bit and i'm sure this forum wouldnt agree with me seeing as im not gonna bash wow in this thread but i just forsee WAR being a big dissapointment, it's going to be a grind, no lie - dont tell yourself it wont be, beta gamers can vouche for it, not only will it be a grind, it'll be a slow grind, with classes overranking each other. Certain classes as in all games will be played over others, but in a game like this where things like the squig herder is against a shaman for dps it's obvious the shaman will be played more often "well it's all about your play style, that dictates what will be played over other classes" Not really!! look at other games, one class is always praised over others and with a system with this with so many "unique" classes *cough* old classes being renamed *cough* many gamers will be swayed into playing the highly advertised classes like the marauder and the shaman but in all honesty the game will just be another ticktacktoe grinder ( i dunno if that's a new term it just made sense to me) Tank goes in, dps goes in, healer heals, mob dead, rinse repeat Now to compare it to everyone's favorite ashtray WoW, people complain about battlegrounds in wow, but look at the pvp videos released on WAR it looks exactly like a battleground mixed with an fps kind of landscape so it's like runescape+gunz. I dunno about all of you but i really do just see this game being another pain of a grinder with lack luster quests being shaded by the idea that "lore makes a game" which is utter bull, look how succesful wow is - the only thing most gamers know about Warcraft lore was obtained from warcraft 1 through 3. So sure it'll have a ton of subscriptions.. i mean who isnt looking for something good? i'm just saying it wont live as long or as steadily as many other games such as everquest 2 or guild wars for that matter..
flame away
Before I start my reply, let me just say that although I'm loving WAR, I do not intend to flame you. I am merely replying because your arguments are wrong. So here goes.
WAR will be a grind. As will any MMO in the near future. That is how MMO's are made to last, making sure atleast some people will keep playing it over an extended period of time (aka paying the developers for an extended period of time). Most of us don't like grinding, but some games have so much different things to do, that you can can switch activities and keep it interesting.
The classes. Yeah. Offcourse there will be the popular classes, the ones that usually need the nerfing. But truthfully: this is why Mythic made sure every class can DPS. Whether you're a healer or a tank, you can do plenty of damage if you have the right build. I think that this simple fact is a godsent improvement to the MMO industry.
The WAR scenraios (Battlegrounds) do indeed resemble the WoW BG's. But that's not what WAR is and will be known for. The RVR-Zone battles are what it's all about. I think the scenarios are implemented solely because there are people that like them (I do, for instance.).
The next statement you make, about the quests, is wrong. I can't put it more simple. WAR has quite a background. I could probably compare it to LOTRO. I would love to tell you more about the questing part of the game, but the NDA prohibits me.
The longevity of the game is pure guessing. You won't think it will last long. I think it will. Why? Because WAR has a very big (If not huge) playerbase on the tabletop side (Me including). Plenty of those will be playing this online MMO. But hey, that also is just a guess, just as good as yours.
-------Time will tell--------
Just a tip from a friendly Betatester: Try it out when you get the chance. I hope you will not be dissapointed (I sure as hell wasn't).
Warning: I am Dissing WAR I honestly forsee this game being very bad, ive researched it quite a bit and i'm sure this forum wouldnt agree with me seeing as im not gonna bash wow in this thread but i just forsee WAR being a big dissapointment, it's going to be a grind, no lie - dont tell yourself it wont be, beta gamers can vouche for it, not only will it be a grind, it'll be a slow grind, with classes overranking each other. Certain classes as in all games will be played over others, but in a game like this where things like the squig herder is against a shaman for dps it's obvious the shaman will be played more often "well it's all about your play style, that dictates what will be played over other classes" Not really!! look at other games, one class is always praised over others and with a system with this with so many "unique" classes *cough* old classes being renamed *cough* many gamers will be swayed into playing the highly advertised classes like the marauder and the shaman but in all honesty the game will just be another ticktacktoe grinder ( i dunno if that's a new term it just made sense to me) Tank goes in, dps goes in, healer heals, mob dead, rinse repeat Now to compare it to everyone's favorite ashtray WoW, people complain about battlegrounds in wow, but look at the pvp videos released on WAR it looks exactly like a battleground mixed with an fps kind of landscape so it's like runescape+gunz. I dunno about all of you but i really do just see this game being another pain of a grinder with lack luster quests being shaded by the idea that "lore makes a game" which is utter bull, look how succesful wow is - the only thing most gamers know about Warcraft lore was obtained from warcraft 1 through 3. So sure it'll have a ton of subscriptions.. i mean who isnt looking for something good? i'm just saying it wont live as long or as steadily as many other games such as everquest 2 or guild wars for that matter..
flame away
Before I start my reply, let me just say that although I'm loving WAR, I do not intend to flame you. I am merely replying because your arguments are wrong. So here goes.
WAR will be a grind. As will any MMO in the near future. That is how MMO's are made to last, making sure atleast some people will keep playing it over an extended period of time (aka paying the developers for an extended period of time). Most of us don't like grinding, but some games have so much different things to do, that you can can switch activities and keep it interesting.
The classes. Yeah. Offcourse there will be the popular classes, the ones that usually need the nerfing. But truthfully: this is why Mythic made sure every class can DPS. Whether you're a healer or a tank, you can do plenty of damage if you have the right build. I think that this simple fact is a godsent improvement to the MMO industry.
The WAR scenraios (Battlegrounds) do indeed resemble the WoW BG's. But that's not what WAR is and will be known for. The RVR-Zone battles are what it's all about. I think the scenarios are implemented solely because there are people that like them (I do, for instance.).
The next statement you make, about the quests, is wrong. I can't put it more simple. WAR has quite a background. I could probably compare it to LOTRO. I would love to tell you more about the questing part of the game, but the NDA prohibits me.
The longevity of the game is pure guessing. You won't think it will last long. I think it will. Why? Because WAR has a very big (If not huge) playerbase on the tabletop side (Me including). Plenty of those will be playing this online MMO. But hey, that also is just a guess, just as good as yours.
-------Time will tell--------
Just a tip from a friendly Betatester: Try it out when you get the chance. I hope you will not be dissapointed (I sure as hell wasn't).
So you say he is wrong but finally you agree with him in everything except the quests.
But the point is being missed. WoW had battlegrounds that meant nothing at all, the only immersion in pvp I got was from raiding towns early in the game pre-battlegrounds.
guards wear the guild tabards also.
Guild alliances on servers.
I know some people are concerned that keep battles will be zerg v zerg, and little room for small scale open world pvp..but why should that be the case?
1 guild in an alliance attacks the keep while 1 defends. 1 attacking guild might be needed outside the keep to keep routes open to the keep from the respawn point, while defenders can try to block the route to defeat the attack. This opens the scope for large scale and more tactical fighting around a keep than just zerg v zerg. Small group has to form up at the spawn point and fight through ambushes to get to the keep again.
What stops guilds cooperating, 1 fighting a large zerg while the other flanks+scouts to try to keep an eye on flankers.
I dunno I am thinking aloud in a sense but these are all the things that draw me to WAR. Saying WAR pvp is like WoW pvp is wrong. WoW pvp was fun but died fast for me because it was so basic, zerg v zerg and meant nothing. In battlegrounds like WSG organised groups farmed pvp for items like in pve...it just was no fun at all. Blizzard made zero attempt to mask the fact that it was simply an item grind of epic proportions.
Sure I will be grinding the rvr levels if you want to look at it that way, but I won't feel the pain of the grind because the rvr should be so immersive and fun that it won't be..oh god we have to take 100 more keeps to get guild level xx.
The only step up I can see would be a sandbox style DAOC 2 with the ability to form guild alliances that hold control of 'kingdoms' (in the style of EVE online).
Range v Melee centric is another topic I see talked about.
I agree focus fire will be used all the time by organised guild groups on vent. But to say melee won't be played is ignoring the following..
Loads of players love melee, they will not play casters because they will help their guild, they will play the class they like. I am in a 'hardcore' guild and we have even class distribution, and so do most guilds right now.
To think the devs also have not though of a way for melee dps to close on casters is a bit strange, it is an obvious need for melee. This will give them their role, while tanks will have the role to stand in the caster groups and stun/taunt/knockback the melee dps to protect the casters.
warhammer online will not fail it will probably be better than world of warcraft playin wow for about 4 years and makin plenty of 70's i say there has to be something new, warhammer so when it comes out i cant wait i love that the fact that u lv up from pvp thats awsome i accually like the quest idea and i herd that acheivements like i touched myself (touch yourself a X amount of times ) and my ememies will look like and i cant wait to meet u guys cause i plan to see you wilth a sword at my throat and a squig at your face srry for the spelling
Comments
I am pretty sure that it was you who told me "it sounds to me like you just don't MMORPGs" before when I had issues playing AoC. In fact, your entire post seems pulled out of the AoC forums a bit before and after its release.
The OP has very valid points about such things as the classes and the skirmishes, I absolutely see it for myself. I don't believe there is any real meaningful variety in the classes, and the skirmishes look exactly like WoW battlegrounds. All with slightly better graphics, but still.
There might be other aspects that still tip the scale in favor of WAR, and the points may not be as severe or detrimental, but I'm watching from the sidelines this time around.
Meaningful variety in classes? They have pet classes, melee classes, Tanks, Melee healers, Ranged Healers, Casters, Physical ranged, Caster/healers. What more do you want?
Scenarios are like WoW battlegrounds except they are timed and short instead of the 30minute AB/EotS games and hour long WSG games.
There is tons of land to fight over, the battles will never be the same day to day. You wont be taking a city daily...more like montly.
This is a PvP game. There are games like CS that have had the same maps for YEARS and people still play them. You are talking to someone that played AA:O Bridge and then Bridge SE for 2 years straight. The thrill is in the battle, not the surroundings.
The PVP concerns that were outlined by the OP are legit even if he did not structure his post in a meaningful way.
When it comes down to it a certain few classes will be played by most serious PVPers. More specifically the ranged classes because range is easier to coordinate to focus fire and call out targets using vent or teamspeak which most serious PVP guilds do. Unless melee classes have ways of closing the gap significantly in a timely manner then no matter how much damage they do it will be meaningless to play a melee class.
PVP balance between ranged classes versus melee classes has always been difficult. WoW is currently melee centric while L2 has been for the most part range centric. But I do not know of a ranged class in L2 that can project long range attacks while moving. This to me is very, very concerning.
Nothing against DAOC but I am not sure many of the mechanics will be embraced by the current PVP generation which expect ranged classes having to pause a bit before delivering a ranged attack.
That might be true... but Mythic is doing all they can to make PvE skills useful in PvP...
In one video i think they mentiond that you can taunt in PvP and that's one of the ways they are trying to make tanks be tanks even in PvP (i seen the beta leaked info on how that skill works and it's fun IMHO). They also mentioned that tanks will have abilityes like auras that make team members do more damage for the damage the team takes untill the tank dies, so if you don't kill the tank fastthe team gets a huge damage boost and you don't want that ( it was on a vid i think where they explained the math behind mmorpgs)... So this wont be your standard "kill the priest first and they all die" mmorpg... it will have a lot more tactics and skills that make you think before you act instead of just focusing on the clothys...
Ofc, i cant comment on the status of the beta since i'm not in it... but so far i'm sure they have the balance stuff sorted out and a blanced team with tanks, healers, melee and ranged working together will have the upper hand over a team of all ranged or all melee or even a team without tanks or healers... Guess we'll have to wait till the NDA falls... again )
My bet is this will be yet another highly overrated MMO, but will do better then AoC.
I am wondering: Why even bother with the 1st 40 levels then ? Why not get rid of the old leveling up mechanism ?
Because it would be commercial suicide.
The combat in videos look as slow as a mongoloid in physics lab. Ability 'stand still for 4 secs* Ability rinse and repeat...
Great consept and all, but it doesent give me the feel of fast paced PVP action im looking for. I hope they somehow fix that.
I am wondering: Why even bother with the 1st 40 levels then ? Why not get rid of the old leveling up mechanism ?
Well originally they wanted to do away with levels altogether...
However it turned out that this concept would be waay too much for your average WoW-er who gets lost without a bar filling up to show him how "well" he is doing.
This is an OK compromise I suppose. T1-3 are an introduction for the real game which starts at T4 with 80 renown ranks, guild levels, tome unlocks etc. That's another reason I find those so-called Open servers so pointless. At T4 there should be no discernible difference between Open and Core. It's dumb to screw up the game's balance with a new ruleset just so you can play "tough" in what is, essentially, just a prolonged tutorial.
That might be true... but Mythic is doing all they can to make PvE skills useful in PvP...
In one video i think they mentiond that you can taunt in PvP and that's one of the ways they are trying to make tanks be tanks even in PvP (i seen the beta leaked info on how that skill works and it's fun IMHO). They also mentioned that tanks will have abilityes like auras that make team members do more damage for the damage the team takes untill the tank dies, so if you don't kill the tank fastthe team gets a huge damage boost and you don't want that ( it was on a vid i think where they explained the math behind mmorpgs)... So this wont be your standard "kill the priest first and they all die" mmorpg... it will have a lot more tactics and skills that make you think before you act instead of just focusing on the clothys...
Tanks taunting isn't a new mechanic in MMORPG PVP and has been done before. I have yet to encounter a MMORPG where a tank taunting in PVP has been highly effective.
Auras for tanks are a good/bad idea depending on how they are implimented. If it requires the tank to be in range of other party members than this can be easily overcome. If it is simply whomever is in your party then obviously it can not be circumvented.
Before I start my reply, let me just say that although I'm loving WAR, I do not intend to flame you. I am merely replying because your arguments are wrong. So here goes.
WAR will be a grind. As will any MMO in the near future. That is how MMO's are made to last, making sure atleast some people will keep playing it over an extended period of time (aka paying the developers for an extended period of time). Most of us don't like grinding, but some games have so much different things to do, that you can can switch activities and keep it interesting.
The classes. Yeah. Offcourse there will be the popular classes, the ones that usually need the nerfing. But truthfully: this is why Mythic made sure every class can DPS. Whether you're a healer or a tank, you can do plenty of damage if you have the right build. I think that this simple fact is a godsent improvement to the MMO industry.
The WAR scenraios (Battlegrounds) do indeed resemble the WoW BG's. But that's not what WAR is and will be known for. The RVR-Zone battles are what it's all about. I think the scenarios are implemented solely because there are people that like them (I do, for instance.).
The next statement you make, about the quests, is wrong. I can't put it more simple. WAR has quite a background. I could probably compare it to LOTRO. I would love to tell you more about the questing part of the game, but the NDA prohibits me.
The longevity of the game is pure guessing. You won't think it will last long. I think it will. Why? Because WAR has a very big (If not huge) playerbase on the tabletop side (Me including). Plenty of those will be playing this online MMO. But hey, that also is just a guess, just as good as yours.
-------Time will tell--------
Just a tip from a friendly Betatester: Try it out when you get the chance. I hope you will not be dissapointed (I sure as hell wasn't).
Before I start my reply, let me just say that although I'm loving WAR, I do not intend to flame you. I am merely replying because your arguments are wrong. So here goes.
WAR will be a grind. As will any MMO in the near future. That is how MMO's are made to last, making sure atleast some people will keep playing it over an extended period of time (aka paying the developers for an extended period of time). Most of us don't like grinding, but some games have so much different things to do, that you can can switch activities and keep it interesting.
The classes. Yeah. Offcourse there will be the popular classes, the ones that usually need the nerfing. But truthfully: this is why Mythic made sure every class can DPS. Whether you're a healer or a tank, you can do plenty of damage if you have the right build. I think that this simple fact is a godsent improvement to the MMO industry.
The WAR scenraios (Battlegrounds) do indeed resemble the WoW BG's. But that's not what WAR is and will be known for. The RVR-Zone battles are what it's all about. I think the scenarios are implemented solely because there are people that like them (I do, for instance.).
The next statement you make, about the quests, is wrong. I can't put it more simple. WAR has quite a background. I could probably compare it to LOTRO. I would love to tell you more about the questing part of the game, but the NDA prohibits me.
The longevity of the game is pure guessing. You won't think it will last long. I think it will. Why? Because WAR has a very big (If not huge) playerbase on the tabletop side (Me including). Plenty of those will be playing this online MMO. But hey, that also is just a guess, just as good as yours.
-------Time will tell--------
Just a tip from a friendly Betatester: Try it out when you get the chance. I hope you will not be dissapointed (I sure as hell wasn't).
So you say he is wrong but finally you agree with him in everything except the quests.
But the point is being missed. WoW had battlegrounds that meant nothing at all, the only immersion in pvp I got was from raiding towns early in the game pre-battlegrounds.
guards wear the guild tabards also.
Guild alliances on servers.
I know some people are concerned that keep battles will be zerg v zerg, and little room for small scale open world pvp..but why should that be the case?
1 guild in an alliance attacks the keep while 1 defends. 1 attacking guild might be needed outside the keep to keep routes open to the keep from the respawn point, while defenders can try to block the route to defeat the attack. This opens the scope for large scale and more tactical fighting around a keep than just zerg v zerg. Small group has to form up at the spawn point and fight through ambushes to get to the keep again.
What stops guilds cooperating, 1 fighting a large zerg while the other flanks+scouts to try to keep an eye on flankers.
I dunno I am thinking aloud in a sense but these are all the things that draw me to WAR. Saying WAR pvp is like WoW pvp is wrong. WoW pvp was fun but died fast for me because it was so basic, zerg v zerg and meant nothing. In battlegrounds like WSG organised groups farmed pvp for items like in pve...it just was no fun at all. Blizzard made zero attempt to mask the fact that it was simply an item grind of epic proportions.
Sure I will be grinding the rvr levels if you want to look at it that way, but I won't feel the pain of the grind because the rvr should be so immersive and fun that it won't be..oh god we have to take 100 more keeps to get guild level xx.
The only step up I can see would be a sandbox style DAOC 2 with the ability to form guild alliances that hold control of 'kingdoms' (in the style of EVE online).
Range v Melee centric is another topic I see talked about.
I agree focus fire will be used all the time by organised guild groups on vent. But to say melee won't be played is ignoring the following..
Loads of players love melee, they will not play casters because they will help their guild, they will play the class they like. I am in a 'hardcore' guild and we have even class distribution, and so do most guilds right now.
To think the devs also have not though of a way for melee dps to close on casters is a bit strange, it is an obvious need for melee. This will give them their role, while tanks will have the role to stand in the caster groups and stun/taunt/knockback the melee dps to protect the casters.
Careful of the NDA peeps, discussing anything from the beta is a breach.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Pardon my english. What I'm trying to say is that I understand his arguments, but I disagree that those arguments mean that WAR will fail.
warhammer online will not fail it will probably be better than world of warcraft playin wow for about 4 years and makin plenty of 70's i say there has to be something new, warhammer so when it comes out i cant wait i love that the fact that u lv up from pvp thats awsome i accually like the quest idea and i herd that acheivements like i touched myself (touch yourself a X amount of times ) and my ememies will look like and i cant wait to meet u guys cause i plan to see you wilth a sword at my throat and a squig at your face srry for the spelling
kill the clowns O.o the damn clowns