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What's REALLY MISSING from new MMORPG's....
pencilrick
Member Posts: 1,550
I know a lot of folks will say that the first experience in an MMORPG is magical and cannot be replicated, sort of like a person's first kiss or something. But I think there is a more tangible, and fortunately repeatable, factor that drove some fo the fun in earlier MMO's.
The feeling of dread when outside a town or guard tower, and the feeling of safety and relief when in a town or guard tower. If you were out in the wilds, you were on your guard. When you made it to town after a long and dangerous trek, you felt relief. In fact, a town was generally the only safe place to log out.
Todays MMORPG's, towns have little to draw you to them, and the PVE enviornment in general is not that challenging. These newer games just don't pull on a person's emotional strings as much, and so are bland.
Solution?
Death has to sting somewhat. Not enough to make someone want to quit, but enough to make someone curse, perhaps. And the wilderness needs to have more wandering high level mobs. Have level-appropriate stuff to grind in camps, but a higher-level patrol wandering about. "Trains" (risk of taking aggro from someone's bad pull) also add to the fun and excitement.
Players out in the wildnerness or in dungeons should feel like they need to be on their toes, and not so blase that they feel like falling asleep.
I think that would do it. Incidentally, I think PVP is so popular these days, because it satisfies some of the above, while PVE has become warm wet toast; it's so lame.
Comments
Ken
Things are a lot easier now, but it's hard to go from easy to hard after you are used to easy. I believe it's more that companies are not coming out with new ideas. They are rehashing old ideas that people are sick of. Everything goes through cycles. First games were really hard group based games. Then WoW brought in an easier solo based game that drew a lot of people in. Since then most games have tried to copy that mold, but people are getting tired of it I think just like a lot of people got tired of the original MMOs after playing them for a few years. What is missing is new ideas being incorperated into MMOs IMO. Something different that will draw people into the game for a while.
Well... I remember in my old runescape days (few years ago) that I had that feeling while in the wilderness. The most annoying thing about death is when you get raped (excuse my strong words) by somebody higher level than you, and you stand absolutely no chance against him. Because he has the ability to spend his life playing the game.
Another annoying death is when you get spanked by someone with better equipment than you. For once I would like a mmo with real time combat. Where armor and weapons is an important factor, but skill is the deciding factor. Of course the guy using is fists will get owned by some guy with a sword. But if the guy with the sword sucks and misses every time then the guy with his fists will win.
Well... I remember in my old runescape days (few years ago) that I had that feeling while in the wilderness. The most annoying thing about death is when you get raped (excuse my strong words) by somebody higher level than you, and you stand absolutely no chance against him. Because he has the ability to spend his life playing the game.
Another annoying death is when you get spanked by someone with better equipment than you. For once I would like a mmo with real time combat. Where armor and weapons is an important factor, but skill is the deciding factor. Of course the guy using is fists will get owned by some guy with a sword. But if the guy with the sword sucks and misses every time then the guy with his fists will win.
People arent ready for twitch based combat, that is all there is too it. You introduce twitch based combat and anyone who has slow reflexes will lose every fight.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I'm getting so sick of these threads.
The concept of death penalties resulting in heavy xp loss are firstly not the preferred method of play by most. Care to point out to us how many subs EQ and Vanguard have compared to WoW-Guild Wars-L2 etc?
Care to point out to me how this 'solution' of yours seems to backfire when you look at what games have the overwhelming majority of subs? By a 1/1000 ratio.
There are plenty of games where death penalties are meaningless. FPS, Action based games, puzzle games, etc.
I have no reason to assume this is any different in MMO. Although some players seem to enjoy a more masochistic playstyle, it's obviously not a majority.
If you want heavy XP loss, and it 'stinging' when you die. Go play EQ, it's there, there's 80 lvl's and months of 'meaningfull content' where you get killed more than you get to play. I played it for 80 lvl's.
But don't force your 'solution' on people who would rather enjoy games instead of working to enjoy it.
EVE already has this..no need for new games with it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm getting so sick of these threads.
The concept of death penalties resulting in heavy xp loss are firstly not the preferred method of play by most. Care to point out to us how many subs EQ and Vanguard have compared to WoW-Guild Wars-L2 etc?
Care to point out to me how this 'solution' of yours seems to backfire when you look at what games have the overwhelming majority of subs? By a 1/1000 ratio.
There are plenty of games where death penalties are meaningless. FPS, Action based games, puzzle games, etc.
I have no reason to assume this is any different in MMO. Although some players seem to enjoy a more masochistic playstyle, it's obviously not a majority.
If you want heavy XP loss, and it 'stinging' when you die. Go play EQ, it's there, there's 80 lvl's and months of 'meaningfull content' where you get killed more than you get to play. I played it for 80 lvl's.
But don't force your 'solution' on people who would rather enjoy games instead of working to enjoy it.
Death in a game has to sting just enough for you to care and to want to be on your toes when in a dangerous area. If death does not sting, then rewards become meaningless.
Yes, WOW has the numbers, but I do not think that is due to all of its characteristics, but perhaps inspite of some of them. WOW is well-polished and that's a huge plus for many gamers. But WOW is cartoonish, has lame in-game jokes referencing the modern world, and has nothing to make you jump out of your seat. In a bad dungeon in WOW and die? It's "so what"; insta-rez and you're back in the fight.
Some gamers, like myself, are into atmosphere and world feel as much as the game itself.
I'm getting so sick of these threads.
The concept of death penalties resulting in heavy xp loss are firstly not the preferred method of play by most. Care to point out to us how many subs EQ and Vanguard have compared to WoW-Guild Wars-L2 etc?
Care to point out to me how this 'solution' of yours seems to backfire when you look at what games have the overwhelming majority of subs? By a 1/1000 ratio.
There are plenty of games where death penalties are meaningless. FPS, Action based games, puzzle games, etc.
I have no reason to assume this is any different in MMO. Although some players seem to enjoy a more masochistic playstyle, it's obviously not a majority.
If you want heavy XP loss, and it 'stinging' when you die. Go play EQ, it's there, there's 80 lvl's and months of 'meaningfull content' where you get killed more than you get to play. I played it for 80 lvl's.
But don't force your 'solution' on people who would rather enjoy games instead of working to enjoy it.
Death in a game has to sting just enough for you to care and to want to be on your toes when in a dangerous area. If death does not sting, then rewards become meaningless.
Yes, WOW has the numbers, but I do not think that is due to all of its characteristics, but perhaps inspite of some of them. WOW is well-polished and that's a huge plus for many gamers. But WOW is cartoonish, has lame in-game jokes referencing the modern world, and has nothing to make you jump out of your seat. In a bad dungeon in WOW and die? It's "so what"; insta-rez and you're back in the fight.
Some gamers, like myself, are into atmosphere and world feel as much as the game itself.
Death in WoW does sting, especially at level 70 in full epics. 5 minute run back to your corpse, 15 gold in repairs. Dont feel like running back to your corpse? 35g repair, 10 minutes of inactivity. Now i need to go farm my dailies to pay for repairs again.
Well... I remember in my old runescape days (few years ago) that I had that feeling while in the wilderness. The most annoying thing about death is when you get raped (excuse my strong words) by somebody higher level than you, and you stand absolutely no chance against him. Because he has the ability to spend his life playing the game.
Another annoying death is when you get spanked by someone with better equipment than you. For once I would like a mmo with real time combat. Where armor and weapons is an important factor, but skill is the deciding factor. Of course the guy using is fists will get owned by some guy with a sword. But if the guy with the sword sucks and misses every time then the guy with his fists will win.
People arent ready for twitch based combat, that is all there is too it. You introduce twitch based combat and anyone who has slow reflexes will lose every fight.
I guess I will just keep away from mmos until something new comes.
Well... I remember in my old runescape days (few years ago) that I had that feeling while in the wilderness. The most annoying thing about death is when you get raped (excuse my strong words) by somebody higher level than you, and you stand absolutely no chance against him. Because he has the ability to spend his life playing the game.
Another annoying death is when you get spanked by someone with better equipment than you. For once I would like a mmo with real time combat. Where armor and weapons is an important factor, but skill is the deciding factor. Of course the guy using is fists will get owned by some guy with a sword. But if the guy with the sword sucks and misses every time then the guy with his fists will win.
I agree. The great thing about the original UO, skill not equipment was the major determining factor in fights. EA destroyed that trying to UO more like EQ with Age of Shadows.
HelloKirby is right.
The only person who isn't ready is you.
And what genre of games are you even talking about? It can't be MMORPGs because reflexes and reaction time DEFINE success in high end raiding PvE content and also is a large factor in PvP combat with MMO's today such as WoW.
You've run logical circles around us.
I agree kind of on your take on the solution from the point of your OP.
But to answer What's REALLY MISSING from new MMORPG's.... in my opinion would be the virtual world feel, the freedom to sort of do what ever you want afcourse within certain limits of what the game stands for and can provide.
To me this genre is turning more and more to regular online shooter type of games but with more players playing simultaneously then your regular FPOS, 3rd often in the case of a MMORPG.
I honostly thought these game suposed to be virtual worlds and not just realms to fight in, I know I've been with games for a very long time but at this time I would have expected games to be more then what they where instead they are far less of what they where but only look better, don't get me wrong I can still enjoy a few of these games.
The way most MMO's work to be the best you have to play the most, unless you're just naturally amazing, and those people aren't that common especially in MMO's where it is more about build/level/items. Plus in my experience the best just realize whats overpowered, and are good at making builds. Since MMO's cost money monthly I don't really think it likely one will decide to base it on skill instead of time played, especially since the grind is really the only difference between a MMO and a single player game or a short mutliplayer game.
But as players I don't understand why any of you wouldn’t want it based more on skill, there are already some reflex required things anyway. WoW might not seem that reflexes based, but I won plenty of lowbie duels when I tried it because people were too brain-dead to turn quickly. And the style of combat all MMO’s use isn’t somehow naturally better than so called “twitch” game play. If you really think it’s somehow more intelligent or strategic I think you need to go look at some forums and see how retarded most of the best people are.
You can create that magical experience again if you stop playing all PC games and online and also never turn on another PC to do anything for 2yrs then buy a new MMO and you will have that same feeling all over again. Why? It is psychological. It is all sensory overload and all the over hype that players get that makes for new MMO transitions feel nothing like how it was when you first started to play your first MMO and got that OMFG this is the most magical best game experience I ever got.
Now it is like jumping from one horse to the other.
Who let you in the VIP section?
I think a lot of people want to feel superior in games. The ability to have others suffer more than them gives them gratification. Often, when I keep talking to a person about their reasons for wanting a heavy death penalty in mmo, what kind of player they are etc..it all comes down to a feeling of accomplishment that is only possible when they feel superior over a fellow player.
Usually the players are raiders, are heavily attached emotionally to their MMO and take being a 'hero' in an MMO much more serious than a casual player.
There are alternatives for those casual players now. Where they can enjoy themselves without having to deal with being the underdog all the time.
This caused the underdogs in those first games to dissapear and people lost their superiority over them, and now they want it back. But it's impossible.
You can not feel superior in a game unless something you do is better / easier or more rewarding than what someone else does. But the need to feel superior in an MMO is non existant for some and essential for others.
Oten times on forums players and developers suggest a hardcore option for those players. But never have I seen them accept this. They want the game to be harder in general, which makes it easier to be that hero around underdogs.
I would say a game that supports as many playstyles as possible.
Well... I remember in my old runescape days (few years ago) that I had that feeling while in the wilderness. The most annoying thing about death is when you get raped (excuse my strong words) by somebody higher level than you, and you stand absolutely no chance against him. Because he has the ability to spend his life playing the game.
Another annoying death is when you get spanked by someone with better equipment than you. For once I would like a mmo with real time combat. Where armor and weapons is an important factor, but skill is the deciding factor. Of course the guy using is fists will get owned by some guy with a sword. But if the guy with the sword sucks and misses every time then the guy with his fists will win.
I agree. The great thing about the original UO, skill not equipment was the major determining factor in fights. EA destroyed that trying to UO more like EQ with Age of Shadows.
I wish that I started mmos with UO (Ultima Online) instead of runescape. From what I have heard about it, it sounded like a dream come true. Too late now.
HelloKirby is right.
The only person who isn't ready is you.
And what genre of games are you even talking about? It can't be MMORPGs because reflexes and reaction time DEFINE success in high end raiding PvE content and also is a large factor in PvP combat with MMO's today such as WoW.
You've run logical circles around us.
PVE is not twitch. When people talk about twitch based games they usually mean action based like instakill FPS or CTF style games.
PVE is nowhere near the twitchyness most FPS or Action games are at. There are twitch moments, but nowhere near FPS lvl's.
I can play MMO for over 4 hours np, I usually have to take a break after 30 minutes of FPS.
CHALLENGE
No incentive to group in nowadays, be aswell playing solo games....make only green mobs soloable..
get social people!
and have classes UNIQUE, stop with food and drink hp/mana regen.
make classes needed.
You can't force people to group. Vanguard is a heavy social and grouping game. Don't say there's no games out there for people who like them.
And make only green mobs solo'able you say? Why would anyone who likes to play solo even join the game then?
You either make a group game, a solo game, or a combination where both players are happy.
But making solo players the underdog at the bottom of the food chain does not work anymore like it used to because there are solo friendly alternatives now. Thank god.
HelloKirby is right.
The only person who isn't ready is you.
And what genre of games are you even talking about? It can't be MMORPGs because reflexes and reaction time DEFINE success in high end raiding PvE content and also is a large factor in PvP combat with MMO's today such as WoW.
You've run logical circles around us.
I dont have the energy to go into detail on this one, look. believe what you will, believe that raiding takes talent, fine believe that in a game that is based on individual player skill and reaction time and not cooldown and dice rolls are the same beast and will be an even playing field for everyone.
Ive yet to do a raid that required me to pay close attention to what i was doing, and i main tanked almost ever instance in WoW up to Black temple.
Sunder armor, sunder armor, sunder armor, shield slam,sunder armor, sunder armo, herioc strike, heroic strike, heroic strike, shield slam, heroc strike heroic strike......
Real challenging.
Pvp = Charge, battlestance, sweeping strikes, whirlwind, mortal strike,, mortal strike, mortal strike.. sweeping strikes, whirlind..
Again, real challenging.
This is a totally different beast then twitch based combat, based on your actual skill. It would have to be seriously dumbed down and it would never work as full twitch based.
I play fps games, i am the type of person who can run full speed and only hits headshots, there are people who play twtich based games for fun, and there are people who excell at them. Im saying the general MMO pop isnt ready for twitch based combat, i wold play one, i would definatly own it, but a lot of people wouldnt.
I was just giving my opinion, im sorry if even my most basic thoughts give you a logical overload. Someone should explain to you in detail the difference between a DnD battle system and a twitch battle system, because you seem to think they are the same.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Please just be honest... you don't want death to sting.
You want severe death penalties so you can hunt the sheep so you can own the players not looking for pvp action and aren't able to defend themselves.
You dont want death penalties so the world could be more immersive you want to Camp people and grief them all day.
You dont want fair fights if you did normal pvp systems would be enough.
You want to wtfpawn someone while there loading in a zone and can't fight back.
while i enjoy eve ill have to say after reading these we want FFApvp posts i hope another grief fest never comes out again.
You all want to be the wolf hunting the sheep but once another wolf steps into ur territory you back down and hide in a safe zone.
basically in game your cowards..... so please stop pushing this long dead FFA/Grief system on us.
Edit: If eve didnt have high sec space Eve wouldnt be around today.
The game would have 10k subs of griefers all hiding from each other cause there are no sheep to kill.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
They just need to Make EQ3 and just take the Orig EQ and Revamp gfx, add pvp, player housing, and better guild halls. And for Pvp i don't mean the pvp server crap that they had lol. Just take out planes of power. That way players have to ravel again. You could solo and you could group. Raiding was awsome and the amount of content was just about limitless. Also they could revamp the crafting system as well lol. And add some quests... For those that say EQ sucks...just go back to playing WoW and please keep your opinion to yourself if you decide to flame. Because we all know EQ owned back in the day. And if there were still a community I would play it. But since there is not i will be satisfied with cabal online.
Kick to the Face.
Basically, we just need a new Ultima Online with better graphics pre-AOS
hi
Sad but true. Superb analysis of the vast majority of most PVP situations, especially EVE online. Great game wrecked for a lot of us by vastly over encouraged ganking system. I've played it as a the sheep and wolf, and your opinion is smack on.