Death penalties don't add challenge and risk. It is really the total game mechanics and design that give you that feel. For example the fact you could loot bodies wasn't that big a deal because generally what you had on you wasn't worth all that much anyway. The danger came from not knowing what you were getting into when you left town. You get this in WoW when you are doing something for the first time, however since nothing changes, heading out of town doesn't mean much since you know where to go to miss mobs.
Also skill doesn't = twitch gameplay.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
People arent ready for twitch based combat, that is all there is too it. You introduce twitch based combat and anyone who has slow reflexes will lose every fight.
HelloKirby is right.
The only person who isn't ready is you.
And what genre of games are you even talking about? It can't be MMORPGs because reflexes and reaction time DEFINE success in high end raiding PvE content and also is a large factor in PvP combat with MMO's today such as WoW.
You've run logical circles around us.
I dont have the energy to go into detail on this one, look. believe what you will, believe that raiding takes talent, fine believe that in a game that is based on individual player skill and reaction time and not cooldown and dice rolls are the same beast and will be an even playing field for everyone.
Ive yet to do a raid that required me to pay close attention to what i was doing, and i main tanked almost ever instance in WoW up to Black temple.
This is a totally different beast then twitch based combat, based on your actual skill. It would have to be seriously dumbed down and it would never work as full twitch based.
I play fps games, i am the type of person who can run full speed and only hits headshots, there are people who play twtich based games for fun, and there are people who excell at them. Im saying the general MMO pop isnt ready for twitch based combat, i wold play one, i would definatly own it, but a lot of people wouldnt.
I was just giving my opinion, im sorry if even my most basic thoughts give you a logical overload. Someone should explain to you in detail the difference between a DnD battle system and a twitch battle system, because you seem to think they are the same.
Heh, the statement simply conflicted with itself. I understand what you had intended to say; my first post was made (with a touch of sarcasm) just to highlight the obvious error you made in your second statement by not including any actual facts.
The entire focus of raiding is how well you react to your environment. Therefore, reaction time or "reflexes" are crucial. For raiding, reaction time is the bread and butter of the mechanics.
As for PvP, I'm talking more about a coordinated PvP team such as arena. Reaction time and reflexes are important and especially for trinkets, interrupts, instant heals and team coordination (spiking for example).
The incorrect assumption: "Someone should explain to you in detail the difference between a DnD battle system and a twitch battle system, because you seem to think they are the same."
Where do you see "PvE combat in WoW is as fast pace as twitch combat"? That's not even remotely connected to anything I said.
You made too many incorrect assumptions (especially your opening paragraph) and the bulk of your post covering those assumptions. I never said WoW's combat was twitch based but your entire post is under that assumption..quite a mistake. I clearly stated that people with slow reaction time would be a burden to the MMORPG games already, such as WoW. You seemed to miss the point entirely and we've derailed the thread enough. If you have further concerns than you can just PM me.
EDIT: I added the second poster.
Originally posted by Waterlily
PVE is not twitch. When people talk about twitch based games they usually mean action based like instakill FPS or CTF style games. PVE is nowhere near the twitchyness most FPS or Action games are at. There are twitch moments, but nowhere near FPS lvl's. I can play MMO for over 4 hours np, I usually have to take a break after 30 minutes of FPS.
You made the same mistake as the above post.
I can see you're struggling to grasp the concept. I'll give you an example. My apologizes if this information is dated because it has been quite a while since I've played WoW.
The final boss of TK, Kael'thas Sunstrider, during the final portion of the encounter has an ability called Flame Strike that would be conjured randomly scattered about the ground. If you failed to move out of it in time or mistakenly moved into than the penalty is a fiery death (55k~ or so damage). If you have slow reflexes than you will be likely to die.
If you're playing an FPS (twitch combat) and you have slow reflexes than you will be likely to die. (Or atleast this is the argument I'm assuming you think is true)
Hence, the point is it doesn't matter if it is twitch combat or PvE raiding. People that are handicapped with slow reaction time are already penalized as are people with poor internet connections but that is life.
Death penalties don't add challenge and risk. It is really the total game mechanics and design that give you that feel. For example the fact you could loot bodies wasn't that big a deal because generally what you had on you wasn't worth all that much anyway. The danger came from not knowing what you were getting into when you left town. You get this in WoW when you are doing something for the first time, however since nothing changes, heading out of town doesn't mean much since you know where to go to miss mobs. Also skill doesn't = twitch gameplay.
Actually if you played some of the old MMOs there was a lot of fear going out of town do partially to death penalty and partially to the fact that almost anything could could kill you as all mobs were balaneced around group encounters. Also the death penalty did worry in the sense that you didn't want to lose the experience you had gained because it was time consuming. In EQ it was actually possible to delevel if you sucked because you lost experience a lot faster then you gained it from killing mobs. A few deaths could undo hours of grinding on mobs. You couldn't really treat in casually like WoW most of the time.
With that said I'm not sure thats whats missing from MMOs these days. It's a nice feature for challenge, but I think most people used to today's MMOs would just quit out of annoyance since there are easier alternatives. I think innovation is whats missing. There hasn't been any drastic new ideas in a ling time.
All I know is in games that have little or no death penalty (ie Wow, eq2, lotro, etc) I never cared one iota whether I died or my group wiped......Half the time I was reading articles on the net on a 2nd PC because the combat was so mindlessly broing in all the newer games anyway....When you lose major XP, cant get your corpse back for a long time, lose items, etc you pay attention and learn your class to try and prevent death......I must have watched a million players in Wow rush blindly into areas with no strategy and just try to zerg constantly...They never learned how to play because death meant nothing more than a couple gold which was more than adundant anyway.......If players would have played EQ in 2000 like they play WoW in 2008 they would have wiped in 10 seconds and probably never played again.......
All I know is in games that have little or no death penalty (ie Wow, eq2, lotro, etc) I never cared one iota whether I died or my group wiped......Half the time I was reading articles on the net on a 2nd PC because the combat was so mindlessly broing in all the newer games anyway....When you lose major XP, cant get your corpse back for a long time, lose items, etc you pay attention and learn your class to try and prevent death......I must have watched a million players in Wow rush blindly into areas with no strategy and just try to zerg constantly...They never learned how to play because death meant nothing more than a couple gold which was more than adundant anyway.......If players would have played EQ in 2000 like they play WoW in 2008 they would have wiped in 10 seconds and probably never played again.......
Dont you think thats exactly why Wow is so popular?
I know a lot of folks will say that the first experience in an MMORPG is magical and cannot be replicated, sort of like a person's first kiss or something. But I think there is a more tangible, and fortunately repeatable, factor that drove some fo the fun in earlier MMO's. The feeling of dread when outside a town or guard tower, and the feeling of safety and relief when in a town or guard tower. If you were out in the wilds, you were on your guard. When you made it to town after a long and dangerous trek, you felt relief. In fact, a town was generally the only safe place to log out. Todays MMORPG's, towns have little to draw you to them, and the PVE enviornment in general is not that challenging. These newer games just don't pull on a person's emotional strings as much, and so are bland. Solution? Death has to sting somewhat. Not enough to make someone want to quit, but enough to make someone curse, perhaps. And the wilderness needs to have more wandering high level mobs. Have level-appropriate stuff to grind in camps, but a higher-level patrol wandering about. "Trains" (risk of taking aggro from someone's bad pull) also add to the fun and excitement. Players out in the wildnerness or in dungeons should feel like they need to be on their toes, and not so blase that they feel like falling asleep. I think that would do it. Incidentally, I think PVP is so popular these days, because it satisfies some of the above, while PVE has become warm wet toast; it's so lame.
Well... I remember in my old runescape days (few years ago) that I had that feeling while in the wilderness. The most annoying thing about death is when you get raped (excuse my strong words) by somebody higher level than you, and you stand absolutely no chance against him. Because he has the ability to spend his life playing the game.
Another annoying death is when you get spanked by someone with better equipment than you. For once I would like a mmo with real time combat. Where armor and weapons is an important factor, but skill is the deciding factor. Of course the guy using is fists will get owned by some guy with a sword. But if the guy with the sword sucks and misses every time then the guy with his fists will win.
People arent ready for twitch based combat, that is all there is too it. You introduce twitch based combat and anyone who has slow reflexes will lose every fight.
Doesn't need to be twitch based. Imagine if you took all of the skills and special moves in WoW and put them into categories: Primary Weapon, Secondary Weapon, Defensive Kenetic, Offensive Kenetic, Offensive Magic, Defensive Magic, Crowd Control, Pet Control and Healing. You allow players to pick each category they had an interest in and spend points on the various skills within those categories. Each Player builds a character specific to their own playing style. I would need to put forward my best efforts and hope that my opponent has a weak build against mine. You wouldn't know what to expect from a stranger and if you hinged that with an irritating death penalty you wouldn't attack them so readily.
I guess the real problem is not that death penalties are lame it's that there is really no reason in these linear, gear based/level based themepark games for the penalty to be irritating. I know with a glance the level and class and whether I can beat them or not - so there is no challenge and little risk. In older MMORPGs you had to fight something before you knew whether you could beat it or not. The only time I get that in games like WoW is when I try to solo the elite mobs.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Solution? Death has to sting somewhat. Not enough to make someone want to quit, but enough to make someone curse, perhaps.
I'm getting so sick of these threads.
The concept of death penalties resulting in heavy xp loss are firstly not the preferred method of play by most. Care to point out to us how many subs EQ and Vanguard have compared to WoW-Guild Wars-L2 etc?
Care to point out to me how this 'solution' of yours seems to backfire when you look at what games have the overwhelming majority of subs? By a 1/1000 ratio.
There are plenty of games where death penalties are meaningless. FPS, Action based games, puzzle games, etc.
I have no reason to assume this is any different in MMO. Although some players seem to enjoy a more masochistic playstyle, it's obviously not a majority.
If you want heavy XP loss, and it 'stinging' when you die. Go play EQ, it's there, there's 80 lvl's and months of 'meaningfull content' where you get killed more than you get to play. I played it for 80 lvl's.
But don't force your 'solution' on people who would rather enjoy games instead of working to enjoy it.
Death in a game has to sting just enough for you to care and to want to be on your toes when in a dangerous area. If death does not sting, then rewards become meaningless.
Yes, WOW has the numbers, but I do not think that is due to all of its characteristics, but perhaps inspite of some of them. WOW is well-polished and that's a huge plus for many gamers. But WOW is cartoonish, has lame in-game jokes referencing the modern world, and has nothing to make you jump out of your seat. In a bad dungeon in WOW and die? It's "so what"; insta-rez and you're back in the fight.
Some gamers, like myself, are into atmosphere and world feel as much as the game itself.
Why don't you learn a bit and stop speaking for other people. Statements like "death in a game has to sting just enought for you to care" is BS. Speak for yourself. Such as: "I need death to have just enough sting to it....". That way is honest, the your way is not.
I know a lot of folks will say that the first experience in an MMORPG is magical and cannot be replicated, sort of like a person's first kiss or something. But I think there is a more tangible, and fortunately repeatable, factor that drove some fo the fun in earlier MMO's. The feeling of dread when outside a town or guard tower, and the feeling of safety and relief when in a town or guard tower. If you were out in the wilds, you were on your guard. When you made it to town after a long and dangerous trek, you felt relief. In fact, a town was generally the only safe place to log out. Todays MMORPG's, towns have little to draw you to them, and the PVE enviornment in general is not that challenging. These newer games just don't pull on a person's emotional strings as much, and so are bland. Solution? Death has to sting somewhat. Not enough to make someone want to quit, but enough to make someone curse, perhaps. And the wilderness needs to have more wandering high level mobs. Have level-appropriate stuff to grind in camps, but a higher-level patrol wandering about. "Trains" (risk of taking aggro from someone's bad pull) also add to the fun and excitement. Players out in the wildnerness or in dungeons should feel like they need to be on their toes, and not so blase that they feel like falling asleep. I think that would do it. Incidentally, I think PVP is so popular these days, because it satisfies some of the above, while PVE has become warm wet toast; it's so lame.
I appreciate the 'feeling' you are striving for. Of being in danger, of being at risk when you are away from the havens of towns, and I do miss that somewhat.
However, for me, the changes you suggest do not sound like a fun game. Imagine it: you get 100 yards away from a town, and tougher-than-you mobs frequently jump you, either forcing you to slog through countless numbers or outright killing you. If you die, there's that 'stinging' penalty you want, and now you have that burden and you still have those mobs to deal with. And that's just getting to your destination. If you've ever played GW it sounds like being teleported to a town surrounded by mobs way over your level.
That might be fun for you, but not for me. I like getting to a point where, at least compared to the mobs in the area, I am the most powerful one around. I like my travel to be mostly hassle and harrassment-free. I like mild death penalties. I don't like to be punished for making a mistake in a game to the point where it takes hours of play to recoup my exp loss.
In the long run, I want to pwn the game. From humble beginnings, I want to work my way up to supreme uberness. Not compared to the other uber heroes I share the world with, but compared to the world itself.
I think a modified death feature borrowed from older games would please a lot of people: Have a chance of 3 things happening to you when you reach zero hit points -
1) Incapacitation. The player is knocked down and is locked out of the game for a given amount of time. This would be the most common NPC occurrence. At the end a player rises and resumes where they left off.
2) Deadly Blow. After taking an incapacitation there is a chance the player will be stuck with a deadly blow. The player spawns at a medical station (fairly common outposts or towns spread around the map) and has to travel back to their quest area as well as suffering a durability loss. More common in PvP where players can control whether or not to place a deadly blow.
3) Death Blow. A rare occurrence that happens when a player is hit with a deadly blow. A harsh penalty that has the player suffer item loss or xp loss or gold loss or honor loss or any macguffin players find valueable. The player spawns at a temple (rare location) found at the city level.
So reaching zero HP doesn't always mean pain but there is a random change that you will suffer severely. Which is another thing missing from games these days - random chance that is associated with things other than just loot tables and proc rates. A slot machine death feature would add a lot of excitement to reaching zero hit points. A sense of win if you just take an incap, a disappointment if you get hit with a deadly blow, or finally what the OP wants to feel when he dies.
I believe this feature satisifies your "Not enough to make someone want to quit, but enough to make someone curse, perhaps."
What do you think about this?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I know a lot of folks will say that the first experience in an MMORPG is magical and cannot be replicated, sort of like a person's first kiss or something. But I think there is a more tangible, and fortunately repeatable, factor that drove some fo the fun in earlier MMO's. The feeling of dread when outside a town or guard tower, and the feeling of safety and relief when in a town or guard tower. If you were out in the wilds, you were on your guard. When you made it to town after a long and dangerous trek, you felt relief. In fact, a town was generally the only safe place to log out. Todays MMORPG's, towns have little to draw you to them, and the PVE enviornment in general is not that challenging. These newer games just don't pull on a person's emotional strings as much, and so are bland. Solution? Death has to sting somewhat. Not enough to make someone want to quit, but enough to make someone curse, perhaps. And the wilderness needs to have more wandering high level mobs. Have level-appropriate stuff to grind in camps, but a higher-level patrol wandering about. "Trains" (risk of taking aggro from someone's bad pull) also add to the fun and excitement. Players out in the wildnerness or in dungeons should feel like they need to be on their toes, and not so blase that they feel like falling asleep. I think that would do it. Incidentally, I think PVP is so popular these days, because it satisfies some of the above, while PVE has become warm wet toast; it's so lame.
As a former veteran of mmorpg's I think you have just made the most clear point and for that a applaud you for it. You hit the nail right on the spot. Thanks for conducting a nicely intelligent constructive post.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
the only time i am ever excited in this genre of entertainment (read books, video games, pen and paper, board games) is when the threat of death is staring at you in the face. nothing gets the excitement factor rising than facing some massive dragon in pen and paper. nothing gets that factor up when your favourite character in the book is in a seemingly hopeless situation and somehow finds a way out.
then we get to video games...i have had my moments (playing WoW and out of the distance came a dark figure that i recognized as a dragon, running straight towards me) and (bounty hunter taking out a target in the middle of the Cantina where i was meeting up with my friend) but its only small random events.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I agree that any successful mmorpg has to keep the player on the edge of their seat. I am in favor of sandbox games, so that complicates the providers ability to ensure that element of gameplay. However, if a game provides convenience utilities for finding exciting adventures then the provider can encourage the game player to follow some form of quest line in which certain content can be rendered to provide the edge of the seat excitement which is sought after.
I'm back playing FFXI because despite it's flaws at least it has some sense of (game) danger. It's ridiculous to me that 'death' is so meaningles in so many MMOs.
Why are so many people unprepared to except any fight without consequences? I mean, why bother with HP, why not allow an instant teleport back to the battle, why not give everyone an 'I win' button for every combat if they don't feel like tany challenge. Who cares is everyone is crap at their class, just give them equipment that makes them invincible because they play a lot.
I still love MMORPGs, but these new MMO-No-Skill-Shinysword-Raid games are starting to get on my nerve. They're certainly not RPGs anymore.
I'm back playing FFXI because despite it's flaws at least it has some sense of (game) danger. It's ridiculous to me that 'death' is so meaningles in so many MMOs.
Why are so many people unprepared to except any fight without consequences? I mean, why bother with HP, why not allow an instant teleport back to the battle, why not give everyone an 'I win' button for every combat if they don't feel like tany challenge. Who cares is everyone is crap at their class, just give them equipment that makes them invincible because they play a lot.
I still love MMORPGs, but these new MMO-No-Skill-Shinysword-Raid games are starting to get on my nerve. They're certainly not RPGs anymore.
To the OP: I'm 100% with you. I'm back playing FFXI because despite it's flaws at least it has some sense of (game) danger. It's ridiculous to me that 'death' is so meaningles in so many MMOs. Why are so many people unprepared to except any fight without consequences? I mean, why bother with HP, why not allow an instant teleport back to the battle, why not give everyone an 'I win' button for every combat if they don't feel like tany challenge. Who cares is everyone is crap at their class, just give them equipment that makes them invincible because they play a lot. I still love MMORPGs, but these new MMO-No-Skill-Shinysword-Raid games are starting to get on my nerve. They're certainly not RPGs anymore.
You have to ask your self, why should i suffer for something that i have very little to no control over.
If it was an FPS, and i missed and got my char killed, that would have been no problem. But when some dumb dice-roll tells me, my oppenent parrys and blocks my chars atacks 5 times in a row, thats really ticks me.
And dude, it takes 0 skills to play MMORPG's.
Sorry to play a game like EQ (Pre-POP), FFXI, or even EVE for a more modern comparison. It does take skill to play your class well and advance beyond the beginning levels, becuase you simply won't progress if you don't play well. The real death penalties made sure of that. Believe me someone who was PL'ed or ebayed or never set foot in a dungeon in these games wore bright flashing signs on their backs saying I don't know how to play my character very well. Sure most people could play any class competently for everyday ordinary play where you are not being challenged. Think Kunark Cycle for those who know EQ.
The skill comes in the little things like knowing what buffs are nice to have but not required , when to and when not to offtank something. When where and how you CC mobs, How to properly manage your mana/ resources in battle and out. How to prioritize your healing. They are all little things, but they do make a difference especially if you are doing challenging content and not easy mode.
Someone also commented about raiding in WOW. One of the things SOE got right in EQ1 post POP was the raiding. You try having one person in the raid not paying attention in just about any Rathe Council + raid in EQ1 and you are asking for a wipe.
I know a lot of folks will say that the first experience in an MMORPG is magical and cannot be replicated, sort of like a person's first kiss or something. But I think there is a more tangible, and fortunately repeatable, factor that drove some fo the fun in earlier MMO's. The feeling of dread when outside a town or guard tower, and the feeling of safety and relief when in a town or guard tower. If you were out in the wilds, you were on your guard. When you made it to town after a long and dangerous trek, you felt relief. In fact, a town was generally the only safe place to log out. Todays MMORPG's, towns have little to draw you to them, and the PVE enviornment in general is not that challenging. These newer games just don't pull on a person's emotional strings as much, and so are bland. Solution? Death has to sting somewhat. Not enough to make someone want to quit, but enough to make someone curse, perhaps. And the wilderness needs to have more wandering high level mobs. Have level-appropriate stuff to grind in camps, but a higher-level patrol wandering about. "Trains" (risk of taking aggro from someone's bad pull) also add to the fun and excitement. Players out in the wildnerness or in dungeons should feel like they need to be on their toes, and not so blase that they feel like falling asleep. I think that would do it. Incidentally, I think PVP is so popular these days, because it satisfies some of the above, while PVE has become warm wet toast; it's so lame.
This will get me flamed for sure, but sounds alot like AoC. I've pulled trains simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and playing on a PvP server is certainly taking your life in your own hands every time you enter the wilderness.
I agree with you Op. There is no challenge or risk in current MMOs. While I would like to see a proper death penalty together with a more challenging environment you also have to make sure it is not abused (griefers). Anti-griefing techniques have to be present if you go for a stingy death penalty or the game will turn into one big pk-fest with the casual players aka "sheep" being massacred left and right just for the heck of it.
I think a small change in game mechanics would already create a lot of challenge: Make it so that every character has 100 hp no matter the level. Two or three hits with a sword will kill him. The progression of the chars would be about learning how to survive and gaining methods to defend themselves (magic shields of various elements, dodging, teleporting, counter spells, parrying, high speed etc) . It would become a game with adaption being the main factor of success. Every char/NPC will have different defence and offense skills. It will all be about knowing how to counter the enemy, how to overcome their defence, how to survive while on the offence. At every moment in the fight, one fireball, one hit of that "godly hammer of uber-damage", one AoE spell of your allies that gets through your defense might be enough to kill you. Thats what I call fighting on the edge.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Comments
Death penalties don't add challenge and risk. It is really the total game mechanics and design that give you that feel. For example the fact you could loot bodies wasn't that big a deal because generally what you had on you wasn't worth all that much anyway. The danger came from not knowing what you were getting into when you left town. You get this in WoW when you are doing something for the first time, however since nothing changes, heading out of town doesn't mean much since you know where to go to miss mobs.
Also skill doesn't = twitch gameplay.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Very good post OP.
The overall feel of "Mehh" comes to my mind.
HelloKirby is right.
The only person who isn't ready is you.
And what genre of games are you even talking about? It can't be MMORPGs because reflexes and reaction time DEFINE success in high end raiding PvE content and also is a large factor in PvP combat with MMO's today such as WoW.
You've run logical circles around us.
I dont have the energy to go into detail on this one, look. believe what you will, believe that raiding takes talent, fine believe that in a game that is based on individual player skill and reaction time and not cooldown and dice rolls are the same beast and will be an even playing field for everyone.
Ive yet to do a raid that required me to pay close attention to what i was doing, and i main tanked almost ever instance in WoW up to Black temple.
Sunder armor, sunder armor, sunder armor, shield slam,sunder armor, sunder armo, herioc strike, heroic strike, heroic strike, shield slam, heroc strike heroic strike......
Real challenging.
Pvp = Charge, battlestance, sweeping strikes, whirlwind, mortal strike,, mortal strike, mortal strike.. sweeping strikes, whirlind..
Again, real challenging.
This is a totally different beast then twitch based combat, based on your actual skill. It would have to be seriously dumbed down and it would never work as full twitch based.
I play fps games, i am the type of person who can run full speed and only hits headshots, there are people who play twtich based games for fun, and there are people who excell at them. Im saying the general MMO pop isnt ready for twitch based combat, i wold play one, i would definatly own it, but a lot of people wouldnt.
I was just giving my opinion, im sorry if even my most basic thoughts give you a logical overload. Someone should explain to you in detail the difference between a DnD battle system and a twitch battle system, because you seem to think they are the same.
Heh, the statement simply conflicted with itself. I understand what you had intended to say; my first post was made (with a touch of sarcasm) just to highlight the obvious error you made in your second statement by not including any actual facts.
The entire focus of raiding is how well you react to your environment. Therefore, reaction time or "reflexes" are crucial. For raiding, reaction time is the bread and butter of the mechanics.
As for PvP, I'm talking more about a coordinated PvP team such as arena. Reaction time and reflexes are important and especially for trinkets, interrupts, instant heals and team coordination (spiking for example).
The incorrect assumption: "Someone should explain to you in detail the difference between a DnD battle system and a twitch battle system, because you seem to think they are the same."
Where do you see "PvE combat in WoW is as fast pace as twitch combat"? That's not even remotely connected to anything I said.
You made too many incorrect assumptions (especially your opening paragraph) and the bulk of your post covering those assumptions. I never said WoW's combat was twitch based but your entire post is under that assumption..quite a mistake. I clearly stated that people with slow reaction time would be a burden to the MMORPG games already, such as WoW. You seemed to miss the point entirely and we've derailed the thread enough. If you have further concerns than you can just PM me.
EDIT: I added the second poster.
You made the same mistake as the above post.
I can see you're struggling to grasp the concept. I'll give you an example. My apologizes if this information is dated because it has been quite a while since I've played WoW.
The final boss of TK, Kael'thas Sunstrider, during the final portion of the encounter has an ability called Flame Strike that would be conjured randomly scattered about the ground. If you failed to move out of it in time or mistakenly moved into than the penalty is a fiery death (55k~ or so damage). If you have slow reflexes than you will be likely to die.
If you're playing an FPS (twitch combat) and you have slow reflexes than you will be likely to die. (Or atleast this is the argument I'm assuming you think is true)
Hence, the point is it doesn't matter if it is twitch combat or PvE raiding. People that are handicapped with slow reaction time are already penalized as are people with poor internet connections but that is life.
Actually if you played some of the old MMOs there was a lot of fear going out of town do partially to death penalty and partially to the fact that almost anything could could kill you as all mobs were balaneced around group encounters. Also the death penalty did worry in the sense that you didn't want to lose the experience you had gained because it was time consuming. In EQ it was actually possible to delevel if you sucked because you lost experience a lot faster then you gained it from killing mobs. A few deaths could undo hours of grinding on mobs. You couldn't really treat in casually like WoW most of the time.
With that said I'm not sure thats whats missing from MMOs these days. It's a nice feature for challenge, but I think most people used to today's MMOs would just quit out of annoyance since there are easier alternatives. I think innovation is whats missing. There hasn't been any drastic new ideas in a ling time.
All I know is in games that have little or no death penalty (ie Wow, eq2, lotro, etc) I never cared one iota whether I died or my group wiped......Half the time I was reading articles on the net on a 2nd PC because the combat was so mindlessly broing in all the newer games anyway....When you lose major XP, cant get your corpse back for a long time, lose items, etc you pay attention and learn your class to try and prevent death......I must have watched a million players in Wow rush blindly into areas with no strategy and just try to zerg constantly...They never learned how to play because death meant nothing more than a couple gold which was more than adundant anyway.......If players would have played EQ in 2000 like they play WoW in 2008 they would have wiped in 10 seconds and probably never played again.......
Dont you think thats exactly why Wow is so popular?
Well... I remember in my old runescape days (few years ago) that I had that feeling while in the wilderness. The most annoying thing about death is when you get raped (excuse my strong words) by somebody higher level than you, and you stand absolutely no chance against him. Because he has the ability to spend his life playing the game.
Another annoying death is when you get spanked by someone with better equipment than you. For once I would like a mmo with real time combat. Where armor and weapons is an important factor, but skill is the deciding factor. Of course the guy using is fists will get owned by some guy with a sword. But if the guy with the sword sucks and misses every time then the guy with his fists will win.
People arent ready for twitch based combat, that is all there is too it. You introduce twitch based combat and anyone who has slow reflexes will lose every fight.
Doesn't need to be twitch based. Imagine if you took all of the skills and special moves in WoW and put them into categories: Primary Weapon, Secondary Weapon, Defensive Kenetic, Offensive Kenetic, Offensive Magic, Defensive Magic, Crowd Control, Pet Control and Healing. You allow players to pick each category they had an interest in and spend points on the various skills within those categories. Each Player builds a character specific to their own playing style. I would need to put forward my best efforts and hope that my opponent has a weak build against mine. You wouldn't know what to expect from a stranger and if you hinged that with an irritating death penalty you wouldn't attack them so readily.
I guess the real problem is not that death penalties are lame it's that there is really no reason in these linear, gear based/level based themepark games for the penalty to be irritating. I know with a glance the level and class and whether I can beat them or not - so there is no challenge and little risk. In older MMORPGs you had to fight something before you knew whether you could beat it or not. The only time I get that in games like WoW is when I try to solo the elite mobs.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I'm getting so sick of these threads.
The concept of death penalties resulting in heavy xp loss are firstly not the preferred method of play by most. Care to point out to us how many subs EQ and Vanguard have compared to WoW-Guild Wars-L2 etc?
Care to point out to me how this 'solution' of yours seems to backfire when you look at what games have the overwhelming majority of subs? By a 1/1000 ratio.
There are plenty of games where death penalties are meaningless. FPS, Action based games, puzzle games, etc.
I have no reason to assume this is any different in MMO. Although some players seem to enjoy a more masochistic playstyle, it's obviously not a majority.
If you want heavy XP loss, and it 'stinging' when you die. Go play EQ, it's there, there's 80 lvl's and months of 'meaningfull content' where you get killed more than you get to play. I played it for 80 lvl's.
But don't force your 'solution' on people who would rather enjoy games instead of working to enjoy it.
Death in a game has to sting just enough for you to care and to want to be on your toes when in a dangerous area. If death does not sting, then rewards become meaningless.
Yes, WOW has the numbers, but I do not think that is due to all of its characteristics, but perhaps inspite of some of them. WOW is well-polished and that's a huge plus for many gamers. But WOW is cartoonish, has lame in-game jokes referencing the modern world, and has nothing to make you jump out of your seat. In a bad dungeon in WOW and die? It's "so what"; insta-rez and you're back in the fight.
Some gamers, like myself, are into atmosphere and world feel as much as the game itself.
Why don't you learn a bit and stop speaking for other people. Statements like "death in a game has to sting just enought for you to care" is BS. Speak for yourself. Such as: "I need death to have just enough sting to it....". That way is honest, the your way is not.
I appreciate the 'feeling' you are striving for. Of being in danger, of being at risk when you are away from the havens of towns, and I do miss that somewhat.
However, for me, the changes you suggest do not sound like a fun game. Imagine it: you get 100 yards away from a town, and tougher-than-you mobs frequently jump you, either forcing you to slog through countless numbers or outright killing you. If you die, there's that 'stinging' penalty you want, and now you have that burden and you still have those mobs to deal with. And that's just getting to your destination. If you've ever played GW it sounds like being teleported to a town surrounded by mobs way over your level.
That might be fun for you, but not for me. I like getting to a point where, at least compared to the mobs in the area, I am the most powerful one around. I like my travel to be mostly hassle and harrassment-free. I like mild death penalties. I don't like to be punished for making a mistake in a game to the point where it takes hours of play to recoup my exp loss.
In the long run, I want to pwn the game. From humble beginnings, I want to work my way up to supreme uberness. Not compared to the other uber heroes I share the world with, but compared to the world itself.
I think a modified death feature borrowed from older games would please a lot of people: Have a chance of 3 things happening to you when you reach zero hit points -
1) Incapacitation. The player is knocked down and is locked out of the game for a given amount of time. This would be the most common NPC occurrence. At the end a player rises and resumes where they left off.
2) Deadly Blow. After taking an incapacitation there is a chance the player will be stuck with a deadly blow. The player spawns at a medical station (fairly common outposts or towns spread around the map) and has to travel back to their quest area as well as suffering a durability loss. More common in PvP where players can control whether or not to place a deadly blow.
3) Death Blow. A rare occurrence that happens when a player is hit with a deadly blow. A harsh penalty that has the player suffer item loss or xp loss or gold loss or honor loss or any macguffin players find valueable. The player spawns at a temple (rare location) found at the city level.
So reaching zero HP doesn't always mean pain but there is a random change that you will suffer severely. Which is another thing missing from games these days - random chance that is associated with things other than just loot tables and proc rates. A slot machine death feature would add a lot of excitement to reaching zero hit points. A sense of win if you just take an incap, a disappointment if you get hit with a deadly blow, or finally what the OP wants to feel when he dies.
I believe this feature satisifies your "Not enough to make someone want to quit, but enough to make someone curse, perhaps."
What do you think about this?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I've seen so many threads about this that I now just respond with two words.
Freedom and Punishment.
That's what MMO's are missing now. /thread
As a former veteran of mmorpg's I think you have just made the most clear point and for that a applaud you for it. You hit the nail right on the spot. Thanks for conducting a nicely intelligent constructive post.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
the only time i am ever excited in this genre of entertainment (read books, video games, pen and paper, board games) is when the threat of death is staring at you in the face. nothing gets the excitement factor rising than facing some massive dragon in pen and paper. nothing gets that factor up when your favourite character in the book is in a seemingly hopeless situation and somehow finds a way out.
then we get to video games...i have had my moments (playing WoW and out of the distance came a dark figure that i recognized as a dragon, running straight towards me) and (bounty hunter taking out a target in the middle of the Cantina where i was meeting up with my friend) but its only small random events.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I agree that any successful mmorpg has to keep the player on the edge of their seat. I am in favor of sandbox games, so that complicates the providers ability to ensure that element of gameplay. However, if a game provides convenience utilities for finding exciting adventures then the provider can encourage the game player to follow some form of quest line in which certain content can be rendered to provide the edge of the seat excitement which is sought after.
To the OP: I'm 100% with you.
I'm back playing FFXI because despite it's flaws at least it has some sense of (game) danger. It's ridiculous to me that 'death' is so meaningles in so many MMOs.
Why are so many people unprepared to except any fight without consequences? I mean, why bother with HP, why not allow an instant teleport back to the battle, why not give everyone an 'I win' button for every combat if they don't feel like tany challenge. Who cares is everyone is crap at their class, just give them equipment that makes them invincible because they play a lot.
I still love MMORPGs, but these new MMO-No-Skill-Shinysword-Raid games are starting to get on my nerve. They're certainly not RPGs anymore.
RPG's are vanishing.
You have to ask your self, why should i suffer for something that i have very little to no control over.
If it was an FPS, and i missed and got my char killed, that would have been no problem. But when some dumb dice-roll tells me, my oppenent parrys and blocks my chars atacks 5 times in a row, thats really ticks me.
And dude, it takes 0 skills to play MMORPG's.
Sorry to play a game like EQ (Pre-POP), FFXI, or even EVE for a more modern comparison. It does take skill to play your class well and advance beyond the beginning levels, becuase you simply won't progress if you don't play well. The real death penalties made sure of that. Believe me someone who was PL'ed or ebayed or never set foot in a dungeon in these games wore bright flashing signs on their backs saying I don't know how to play my character very well. Sure most people could play any class competently for everyday ordinary play where you are not being challenged. Think Kunark Cycle for those who know EQ.
The skill comes in the little things like knowing what buffs are nice to have but not required , when to and when not to offtank something. When where and how you CC mobs, How to properly manage your mana/ resources in battle and out. How to prioritize your healing. They are all little things, but they do make a difference especially if you are doing challenging content and not easy mode.
Someone also commented about raiding in WOW. One of the things SOE got right in EQ1 post POP was the raiding. You try having one person in the raid not paying attention in just about any Rathe Council + raid in EQ1 and you are asking for a wipe.
This will get me flamed for sure, but sounds alot like AoC. I've pulled trains simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and playing on a PvP server is certainly taking your life in your own hands every time you enter the wilderness.
Flame on!! LOL
I agree with you Op. There is no challenge or risk in current MMOs. While I would like to see a proper death penalty together with a more challenging environment you also have to make sure it is not abused (griefers). Anti-griefing techniques have to be present if you go for a stingy death penalty or the game will turn into one big pk-fest with the casual players aka "sheep" being massacred left and right just for the heck of it.
I think a small change in game mechanics would already create a lot of challenge: Make it so that every character has 100 hp no matter the level. Two or three hits with a sword will kill him. The progression of the chars would be about learning how to survive and gaining methods to defend themselves (magic shields of various elements, dodging, teleporting, counter spells, parrying, high speed etc) . It would become a game with adaption being the main factor of success. Every char/NPC will have different defence and offense skills. It will all be about knowing how to counter the enemy, how to overcome their defence, how to survive while on the offence. At every moment in the fight, one fireball, one hit of that "godly hammer of uber-damage", one AoE spell of your allies that gets through your defense might be enough to kill you. Thats what I call fighting on the edge.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.