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Content cuts honesty and Mythic (from an OLD DAOC Ranger)
cirdane
Member UncommonPosts: 51
Even if It proves I need my head Examined I am an old time DAOC player who for some unfathomable reason have been watching and planning to play WAR.
I have seen and read a lot of people dissing the removal of content from launch due to it not being up to a standard that Mythic wants to meet for this game.
All I can say to these people ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MINDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For all the Old time DAOCs I will point out :
Hi Thanes !!!!!!! how was that 4 years at the bottom of the pile while Mythic had no idea what to do with you ?
Hey Brother Rangers are you all missing that old clipping range see hidden fix they slapped on us after launch cause we were death at Los so they let assasins carve on us for a year cause they figured a dead Archer is an Archer no one complains about.?
Hi Ya Warlocks hey remeber being rr1 and smoking rr10s cause you were way OP the day Catacombs launched?
Hey Valkirieys remember sucking for two years right out of the box cause you wern't done and you were no fun except for the 6 people at vn who swore you were working as intended (unfortunatly there were also the only six mythic listened too)?
Hey all you TOA decked people howd you like it after completeing 100 of hours of pve to get your artis all ready to own folks with, the 25% down to 10 % nerf cause mythic hadn't tested thing out ?
I am not slamming Mythic by pointing out these issuses which were ignored / missed handeled/ lied about/ glossed over there were dozens more that I left out as redundant.
The point is Mythic is taking what it has learned and trying to do the right thing by removing things that are undone/not balanced before launch so that people have fun and the game works without class / nerf stick of the month crap that went on in DAOC .
anyone grippping about the cuts should be put in a time machine and sent back to the launch of DAOC chained to a keyboard and be forced to play a thane for the first 4 years.
Comments
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar.
Thats pretty much my view on the "cuts" as well.
~HappyGaming
Valkyrie was my favorite class
the only thing I disagree with is well... I don't mind playing underpowered classes. Completely broken is one thing, but my PERSONAL choice would be to have an underpowered class in rather than no class at all.
that said I don't know which direction they are going with the classes they took out, a complete rework maybe. So it might all be for the best. I'm sad about the cuts, really am, but its not the end of the world to me.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
I remember Thanes... Oh wait there werent any... and there stil larent many. I tried one on my mid server, it made it to liek 35, and omg it was hrbl. very well composed.
Theres plenty of classes and stuff to do in the game to keep you busy until they add more content in.
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Talking about SWG much?
There is more to it than whether or not a class was done. From what I read it was because a) the cut classes were just not as fun as they wanted it to be and b) the cut classes were not distinctive enough from other classes that were already in the game. Personally I was really looking forward to the Blackguard class but, the way it was originally described, don't see how it would have worked: a heavily armored almost impossible to kill dps class.
The cities will make their way back in through free content updates and classes, I dunno. Hope they come up with something otherwise I think there are going to be gaps in RvR, and the pq's will be harder to complete for some races than they are for others.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Yeah I bet they had one hell of a time converting units into MMO classes....there is so much cool shit in the Tabletop and the power of units varies so much that a lot of them dont transfer over well. One of those that don't would be the Witch Hunter , but thats IMHO. I'm sure they did a good job on them but I doubt they are the complete and total badasses they are in the books and tabletop.
~HappyGaming
aye thats just it Mythic was less than stellar with DAOC in many ways. It seems now they have seen the errors of thoes times and are trying to show more integrity with this above the board honest approch,
I am willing to cut them some slack on the misdeeds during DAOC as growing pains. much of the industry was very new and in a state of flux pre WOW. I think they learned tons of what worked and what didn't with DAOC and now WAR is receiving the benefit of that wisdom.
I also have to tip my hat to the 300 pound gorrila in the room WOW which love it or hate it raised the bar on how MMORPGs should be done.
I bitch at everyone else about reading comprehension.......guess I need to go back to school to
Read the whole post mate
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
I strongly believe the Hammerer, Choppa, Knight and Blackguard will be redone and have totally new mechanics within the first year of WAR.
The cities will probably be implemented one at a time in nice free content patches during the first year before WAR's first expansion.
By the time the third and fourth cities make it into the game we probably would have raided the initial ones two to three times at the most.
Mythic will take data of the first few sieges and improve the new cities making them better than the originals.
Missing classes/cities suck but i strongly believe it will be fine.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Read the whole post mate
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Thanks Ascension......For some reason I completely skipped over the last couple paragraphs and I usuall dont do that.
What Severius said. They were removed because "they just aren't fun enough". Direct quote from a developer. Balance in those classes had zip to do with it.
What ever the reasons for the removal be it not finished not fun enough not meeting a standard I think the point is that it is a good thing that Mythic took the high road on this one. They had a real problem for a long time with their expansions not being completly tested.
In the case of TOA they went all out and broke alot of new ground( in the 100% wrong direction ) but no one could argue with the fact they put a ton of effort and content into that expansion. it had a ton of content it also turned the game into haves and havenots forever after.
anyone who was a long time in DOAC cannot but cheer at the fact they are being this careful and working this hard to keep the quality up. DAOCers know that with somthing like an RVR game every thing has to be solid and the mechanics have to work right or it's a train wreck,
personally I have to give them credit for 20 diffrent class. I hate the fact in wow that an ally druid with pointy ears is 99% the same as a horde druid with horns . I think classes unquie to race will give this game a big edge in that it has many versions of each basic class dpser , tank, healer, .
It's creative it must take alot of work and if some classes and cities come late because of it so be it. I've been around when Mythic tried to sneak the unfishied /untested stuff in before and it was never pretty. This is the right way to handel it.
This is a kind of twisted perception of what really happened.
People are upset that those things are not released with the game in a completed form, period. I don't understand how you went from that to this.
So my concerns about the cut content are unintentionally confirmed, it will be a very long time... if ever... before we see them in the game.
Great
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Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
Gaze -
the point i am making is that Mythic has tired it the other way before anyone who has played DAOC before has seen it.
When DAOC launched archers were over powered. the could stleath and hit from far off basicly one shotting from stleath.
archery had not been fully tested.
other players were very upset and many left right off the bat or rolled archers classes after being owned by them.
Mythic seeing what was happening badly over reacted, they :
1) put in blade turn which negated the arches crit shot and took out the one shotting that had been happening
2) nerfed archer damage to the point they couldn't kill a butterfly if it landed under their shoe.
3) gave assasin classes clipping range see hidden so archer we always visable to them.
any ONE of these fixes would have been enough but as mythic was in panic mode they put all THREE into effect and the archer classes life became hell. no one wanted them in groups because their damage was so low ,they couldn't solo cause blade turn blocked the big hitter shot. they couldn't scout cause soon as they left the keep assasins pounced on them for basicly free realm points and it stayed that way for a long time.
THAT is what happens when unfinished untested content is released . every thing goes panic mode and the changes that get put into place to patch up the mistakes are often worse than the original flaw cause now it's all live and it's too late to overhaul the bad stuff,
People who played DAOC have seen this before when Mythic tried leaving in bad content
when I say they should play a Thane I mean they should see what it's like when things they can't finish are left in and become the red headed step child of the realm.
I think they do owe us the promised content it should be their number one priorty, they should add it as fast as they can (WOW death knights anyone ?huge load of bunk 2 +years after launch)
I am able to determine that you are missing my counter-argument though, that there is yet another option on the table:
3) Don't release the game until the 'cut' content is complete and playable.
It was really as simple as that.
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Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
Gaze you just have to remember that IF Mythic took that path of pushing the game back it would have been much worse for the community already we still do not have a release date and people are getting worked up imagine if MJ came out and told us "well our game just has not gotten everything we want in it yet so we are planning to release Q2 next year"
people would have lost their god damn minds
your counter arguement is fine however it is not realistic with in the context of the place Mythic was in.....
and what they have to decide on Pushing the game back another 6 months and loosing a bunch of fans who were tired of waiting ...or making the best damn game they could while cutting a bit of their content
All of the greenskin darkelf highelf and drawf zones are still their minus their cities...however they have been given more forts to fight over...Where the big non-instance RvR battles will be...the classes will be in post game Mythic has never had a problem of adding classes into their games....only now they will not have to deal with the nerf/buff deal.....Making a better game > then releasing with broken content
OP those who have played DAoC understand as well as those who can see past the OMG THEY CUT THE CHOPPA....and those that still do not understand are those coming from other games who PvP is nothing compared to the RvR machine that was DAoC
PS Gaze i did not mean to point that last comment at you...i can tell you understand and are just trying to show your side of the situation
Okay a few things i want to say.
1. They need to realese WAR when they do because of them pushing it back how many times? The longer they keep in development the more money they have pumped into it, and the longer it takes for them to make back the money they have put into it.
2. I would rather be told that there was content cuts rather then logging in creating my first toon and going wtf my class isnt here they lied to me. Being told before hand = better then finding out its not there to begin with, please see the game of fail called Age of Conan.
3. To the people whining about the game being unfinished, ummm its an MMORPG...its never finished. Please see the game of Everquest (still pumping out expansions).
So overall good post OP. Some of the responces are well crap, others are decent as well.
Oh 1 question though, why play a class you know is gimped to hell if it isnt enjoyable cause of that?
Aaaaah, the Thane.. I remember him well. My first character, right out of release.. and onward... Soloing mostly. So much fun.. I will never understand how my Hunter alt who I never played made it to 50 and my Thane lingered at 42.. I mean.. he was my beloved main, my favorite.
I remember the first few months... going out into Emain... To "put the hammer down" on the other side got a whole new meaning. And then I died.. But I DID put the hammer down
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Anatomy of a Fanboi
This is you.
None of this stopped them delaying the game before. The response from the community was that it was awesome that they delayed in lieu of releasing without key features. That they delayed to release a complete game was the rallying cry of fans, touted as the sign of excellence and quality.
Yet in the end they went back on all of that.
It is our differing opinions as to whether or not they saved more than they lost when they took this recent view of the matter. I think they should have just stayed on the original track regarding the game, that this massive flip-flop hurt them a lot more.
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Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
I don't think this city/class delay has hurt them as much as you may think...in fact I think it made them alot more popular. Do you realize how much attention both good and bad that announcement got them? Since they announced the CE preorder back in like late March it didn't manage to sell out. Now its damn near impossible to find a Preorder CE. On ebay the preorder boxes go for about $160. I imagine the price will go alot higher once the actual release date is set.
None of this stopped them delaying the game before. The response from the community was that it was awesome that they delayed in lieu of releasing without key features. That they delayed to release a complete game was the rallying cry of fans, touted as the sign of excellence and quality.
Yet in the end they went back on all of that.
It is our differing opinions as to whether or not they saved more than they lost when they took this recent view of the matter. I think they should have just stayed on the original track regarding the game, that this massive flip-flop hurt them a lot more.
Lets see the people they MAY have lost due to these cuts are people who follow the game/go to MMO web sites which is a relativly small portion. The people the would have lost had they pushed the game back. Possibly people following the game/reading forums AND people that have just herd about it and figure they would give it a shot without any research.
Logic would be the pushback. It not only would effect the people that are following the game and/or reading sites like MMORPG.com but it would also effect thoes that plan on giving it a shot but dont follow/read forums. Thoes include people playing other MMO's that check the main site, dont see a release announcement and go back to playing there other games.
Listne I wont argue that the content cuts didnt suck, it did. But anyone with half a brain knows games, especcialy MMO's eventually just have to be released due to the budget. AoC was in that boat, the bigest diffrence is FC lied about the state of there game. Mythic is not. Had AoC said "Ok our game still needs work, but we have to launch" they would have been recieved by people ALOT better. The fact they keep screwing up the game even more after launch is another subject.
You nearly called my Trifecta of unloved classes...Rangers, Thanes, and Champions......
You need to be reasonable. In a perfect world, the game wouldn't be released until everything originally planned is in. No, delaying the game again isn't an option. Money is needed.
But MMORPGs can't be measured by the same stick used to measure other games. There is no "done" and "not done", only "there's time" and "there's no time". "Release" in an MMO is not "release" for an Elder Scrolls game.
Plus, the amount of content lost by the cuts is small. Mark Jacobs said at E3 that the capital cities that were cut weren't "living cities" like Altdorf and Inevitable -- they were just accessible, though raidable cities, like those in "standard" games. The 4 tier system is still there, and the game is only "losing" four classes that, if left in, would evoke cries of "OMG U RELEASED THIS GAME HALF-ASSED"
But WAR is being flagged as one of the most polished games ever at release -- the core of their game, and their endgame is all there. Their key features are all there. There's no reason they should need to delay it.
The fact that Mythic is being so upfront about their explanations of it is something every other company can learn from -- confidence in your own product goes a long way.
I am inclined to agree with you. However any announcement like this should engender at least a modest amount of healthy skepticism in people.
There may be good reason behind this and possibly MJ has put up a plausible reason that is in line with past experience. And if it turns out to be true then that will be a good sign for Mythic in general.
However it is also possible that these are all excuses or half truths. So since they did in fact change around what they are saying its a good idea to be circumspect. Saying the sky is falling would be premature though.