I've never played a MMO prior to WoW. I like simplicity, I see nothing wrong with it. I can log on for a few hours, get something done. Take a break and come back, and not HAVE to go all hardcore at it. I dont like being free, Im a follower, not a leader, I have a sheep type mentality, I follow the herd. I like to be led down paths, and knowing more about the world then just throwing me out there, and say "Go on, your free".
You're the majority... just not on these forums. Well, most people aren't aware that they are being led down a path, which is sad, cause they've never had anything better to compare it to.
The thing that stings is the loyal fans that made the MMO genre happen are being sold out for high subscription numbers to bring in noobs. Its happening all over gaming. Games are getting easier and easier (some good, most bad) to appeal to masses, leaving us people who were there the whole time, pulling for the company, in the dust.
I like things simple, I dont want my MMO to feel like work, I dont want it to be complicated to where I cant learn to play it by the time I get level 10. I like to have solo content, and lots of it, group leveling means leveling with idiots. I may be one of the masses, but im no dumbass. (Not saying you called me one, just stateing it outloud). I just like the game for what it is. WoW and other mass MMOs have the easiest, yet funnest gameplay experiences i've ever had. I never felt a "grind" going to level 70.
Op made mistake by calling this topic what mmo's should get rid of
Other wise you would not have to reply here now he starts a campaing of saying all themeparks should be chancing to more sandbox style, and thats also bit narrow minded appraoch.
Better have some new mmo's made in sandbox style and more deviate from the fantasy.
Dont think the more sandbox oriented players want there game full with themepark style gamers becouse you get problem then of whole day players whining its to difficult to play.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Hi everyone I come from playing the greatest game that I ever ran into, The Sims Online, but EA has pulled the plug on it >:( Now I am in GREAT search of a game that is SIMILAR to that - with NO FIGHTING in it... and I seem to have some difficulty finding one... (which is really sad when you think about it, when majority of games out there are about fighting and killing... and we don't think we're in trouble with our kids??) Anyway sry got off subject... If anyone knows of any other game (Besides crappy Second Life, and Kaneva) Please please let me know
Thanks!! ^_^
Tori
You actually played the Sims Online? Wow. You might just be the only person I've ever met on this forum who played that . . . game. See all the games on the list to the left? All are about fighting and killing. In fact, just about every MMO has fighting or killing in some respect. Ok, Second Life is out, good. I'm actually thankful you didn't like that. Kaneva, never heard of it.
There is only one compelling MMORPG which has no real combat, and that's A Tale in the Desert. I'd say it's incredibly repetitive, but if you liked TSO, it shouldn't be a problem. The gameplay is a lot more interesting in ATitD than it is TSO, I'd say. Tale is a very different kind of game. It's really about being part of a civilization. Basically, you keep building up your personal holdings, helping your people along the way, then the game starts over fresh. There aren't really any levels or skills. You just kinda build. As for the economy, it's all word-of-mouth stuff. You'd have to find somebody in person and contract them to make what you need.
I'd try ATitD for a while. I'm telling you to give it an honest shot because if you don't like it, you might not find anything else.
lol I tried EA land, didn't hold my interest really.
1) Skills do give more options to the player and I like them for that, but like levels they are the sole determination of how strong your character is and also like levels progress linearly.
2) I agree I would prefer crafted items over dropped, but having a character with a high crafting skill falls into the same catergory as time > skill, play the game longer and you can craft better items.
3) Can't think of a challenging MMO, since they are built around automation it is hard to challange the player, most MMOs boil down to being able to read the skills and haveing enough sense to use them at the right time, but ultimatly the key to success is timeinvestment. For a challenge I think you would need less automation, more player involvement and a large variety of actions. Also I would add simplicity does not have to be the opposite of depth, idealy I think making a game simple to understand is a hallmark of good design.
4) Agree, but if you are using skills then there is no need for xp.
5) Quests or otherwise the game is linear, even with skills, you still follow a linear path to level up. So even without quests or levels you are being funneled to where the content is for your skill level.
6) I never was a big fan of swords and soccery type fantasy, though I don't much like sci-fi either, I find them both to be very cheesey.
7) I never use them so I wouldn't know.
8) If done excessively it is bad but having the occasional area instanced does not bother me, more importantly why do we need dungeons in the first place?
9) Agree, areanas though convienant do become really repetitive.
As a prevous poster wrote about the two genereations, I don't think I am in either of those two.
I played the older MMOs, they had some great ideas but I found them dull and time consuming and repetitive. I played the newer MMOs, they are more lively and faster but they are repetitive and pointless.
I really like the concept of MMOs and I can have fun with most anyone of them for a little while but I don't think there has been a MMO done right thus far.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
remove crafting crafting always ends up hurting the adventurer and leads to ruined economies, gold sellers and farming. Crafters make up maybe 10% of a mmos population yet they control and influence the other 90%'s gameplay often negatively
lol what games are you basing this statement on?
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
I agree with everything but 7 and 6 I really don't mind because the other 7 would be great.
Anyways, in Eve and the old SWG the forums, in my experience, serve a good purpose. They allow for the planning of community activities, the rapid dispersal of game related information (Bugs, game guides for new features, etc), and the ability to form bonds with other players. The quality of the forums is directly related to the quality of the community.
Interesting post, you bring up many good concepts.
If you seek to remove level based progression then expect to have a hardware based bias in effectively applying yourself in the world. A level-based system is implemented in an attempt to even out the playing fields for people with a variety of different power hardware platforms. By removing level-based progression you are creating an arcade style game. However, it isn't really arcade because each person has a different speed machine and the people with the most money to pour into a machine are going to be the most powerful in game.
Loot-based economies aren't an option in any present day mmo. However, I do agree with you that some of the highest end gear should be craft based. I don't think that people should be able to skip out on the crafting system without taking a gear hit someway along the line.
Simplicity, I agree. Too many games rely too heavily on repetitve AI scripts(if they can even be called AI). I think this is where live events come in; with game officials(DMs) who add the extra human element and complexity which goes along with it.
XP penalties for grouping. I don't think that groups should get experience bonuses. I do think that named monsters who drop uncommon gear should drop a single piece for every member in the group. That way every named helps out every member in the group; groups won't be minimized in an attempt to maximize the chance of getting X piece of gear(DDO has implemented a quest turn in process which is similar to allowing each group member to get an item per quest).
Most of the big games in present day give an option for linear gameplay; they are for the most part sandbox games with optional quests.
About small scale PvP, you mentioned earlier on that you were concerned about the amount of time people have to devote to progression. If PvP isn't optional then expect for anyone without a large portion of time to dedicate to progression to be driven away from the game.
1) Levels. Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems! 2) Loot based economies Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers! 3) Simplicity Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me! 4) XP penalties for grouping This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again! 5) Boring linear gameplay I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress! 6) FANTASY! For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original! 7) Official forums Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it! 8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree) Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult. A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot. 9) Small Scale PvP Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP! I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.
Well I have to say that I don't agree with you.
1, I like levels. I could go with a completely skill based system but am very adverse to a system that allows players to be 100% in everything. That just seems lazy and takes away actual consequences of choice.
2, I like the idea of players being able to create weapons, armor, etc.
3, simplicity is no better than complexity. There is room for both. It just depends on how it is implemented.
4, I'm not sure there are xp penalties for grouping so much as not having xp bonuses for grouping. I'm all for creating content where a player receives sufficient experience for grouping. Just so long as solo players can be reasonably competitive.
5, This scares me more than anything else you've written. You don't want questing you do want grinding which is mindless. Now I personally enjoy grinding as I find it relaxing and contemplative but in its purest form it is mindless and repetitive. You then go on to say that it is fun because of people. That strikes me as you being one of those "forced grouping" type of people. You just want to shoot the shit while you grind. oh joy. More than likely I'd be one of the people who would want you to be quiet because you were talking too much. I don't sign on to hear your opinions on what tv you like or sports or any other number of things. I sign on to play a game, create a better character and apply myself to game related tasks.
6, I prefer fantasy games though I've yet to see one that gives me everything or even most things that I want. So I will wait patiently. Not realy interested in sci-fi. Pass.
7, I think forums improve communication and can foster the exchange of information as well as community. They are also moderated which is a plus for me.
8, One can actually use intstancing to tell better stories. But as you just want to grind I can see where you woudnl't like this.
9, Some of the best battles I've been in have been small scale. They have also led to larger scale battles.
Sorry but I'd rather not play game you would design. I'm sure there are others who feel the same.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
There are the old time MMOers who were around for UO, DAoC, EQ, and AC. They were the first, and to many who played them, the best. They were much more in depth, and had a general higher repsect for the player. Or maybe its lack or respect? I don't know. They didn't hold your hand, throw exp at you for free, shower you with loot and quests, and there were actual penalites, they didn't dumb down content, they made games for the money, yes, but they also wanted to make actual RPGs with communities.
Then there is the post WoW faction who has never played an MMO prior to WoW (sad majority of people) they probably wouldn't have been able to handle the pioneer MMOs due to their learning curve. The simplicity of WoW and the following MMOs pulled them in and they never experienced a true living community, without instances, without task quests that throw exp at you, but they seem to enjoy it.
Then there are a few that bleed over from the first generation and don't miss the old games at all. (strange)
I'm curious to know where you fall.
This is basically true. I started out in the end of the old school gamer when I played DAOC. I loved the game but it had features I could not stand.
I hated their dungeons. you sat in one spot and farmed. I prefer WoW's instanced dungeons anyday. You move through a gauntlet of set battles that are difficult and require a range of tactics to ocmplete. I never did that crap in DAOC.
I loved crafting in DAOC. It had lots of customization, BUT when you hit lvl 50 the only reason to enter a high end dungeon were for item drops. so getting rid of these uber dungeon items takes away from the game.
Anybody who slightly knows exp knows that some games must lower exp when people group up because they kill mobs way too damn fast and could level up nearly 5x faster than when solo. This could be game breaking depending on how the EXP system works. So some games have to lower exp when people group up. Besides most games simply have you divide up the exp of each mob amongst the team.
Small scale PvP has the best battles. You are at your prime then. You have a few selected targets and you must use all of yoru skills appropriately to win the battle. In large scale battles you simply spam 2 moves on large groups of people, or like in daoc, you sit around outside a keep and repeatedly crank you siege weapon. In DAOC small scale battles were the best PvP. When they introduced the battle grounds, I found myself in there with a lvl 20 character more often than I did lvl 50 RvR.
Instancing. nothing is worse than ruining your epic, immersive, tale with other people camping a boss. You need instancing, hands down.
Instead of making a post on getting rid of features that have "progressed" the MMO world, how about asking that all these features be implimented in a moderate fashion. WAR I think will impliment everything I like and everything you like.
Just like the quote above says, it seems like the old school players are like a bunch of old men remebering the good old days when they had to crank their cars and play football without padding. Sorry times have changed and the MMO games have added new features to allow more people to enjoy the games.
I want a complex MMO, but one that eases you into the complexity...not one where you feel so overwelmed that you feel like quitting before you even get started.....
A complete tutorial that actually works and not just hanging a player out to dry after 10 minutes of playing the game.
1. I agree, I know skill based games are basicly about improving your stats and therefore level but you shouldn't be able to look at a mob and some up whether you can beat the mob just by the little number over its head. There should be indicators like size, and how mean it looks so some judgement and risk is involved.
2. Agree, although I think armour and weapons should make some difference to your effectiveness but not like wow where gear is king. Crafting should be the main way of getting useful stuff even if you buy the item off someone else who's made it.
5. Disagree, quests should be a way of making you feel like you are helping in a small way towards the goals set down by a good background story. RPG's need a good story, that is the motivation for doing things in the game. If you have no story/goal then what's the point of progressing your character?
I also agree with another post that more puzzles would be nice so you actually have to use your brain and figure it out. MMO's are pretty mindless in most cases.
There are the old time MMOers who were around for UO, DAoC, EQ, and AC. They were the first, and to many who played them, the best. They were much more in depth, and had a general higher repsect for the player. Or maybe its lack or respect? I don't know. They didn't hold your hand, throw exp at you for free, shower you with loot and quests, and there were actual penalites, they didn't dumb down content, they made games for the money, yes, but they also wanted to make actual RPGs with communities.
Then there is the post WoW faction who has never played an MMO prior to WoW (sad majority of people) they probably wouldn't have been able to handle the pioneer MMOs due to their learning curve. The simplicity of WoW and the following MMOs pulled them in and they never experienced a true living community, without instances, without task quests that throw exp at you, but they seem to enjoy it.
Then there are a few that bleed over from the first generation and don't miss the old games at all. (strange)
I'm curious to know where you fall.
This is basically true. I started out in the end of the old school gamer when I played DAOC. I loved the game but it had features I could not stand.
I hated their dungeons. you sat in one spot and farmed. I prefer WoW's instanced dungeons anyday. You move through a gauntlet of set battles that are difficult and require a range of tactics to ocmplete. I never did that crap in DAOC.
I loved crafting in DAOC. It had lots of customization, BUT when you hit lvl 50 the only reason to enter a high end dungeon were for item drops. so getting rid of these uber dungeon items takes away from the game.
Anybody who slightly knows exp knows that some games must lower exp when people group up because they kill mobs way too damn fast and could level up nearly 5x faster than when solo. This could be game breaking depending on how the EXP system works. So some games have to lower exp when people group up. Besides most games simply have you divide up the exp of each mob amongst the team.
Small scale PvP has the best battles. You are at your prime then. You have a few selected targets and you must use all of yoru skills appropriately to win the battle. In large scale battles you simply spam 2 moves on large groups of people, or like in daoc, you sit around outside a keep and repeatedly crank you siege weapon. In DAOC small scale battles were the best PvP. When they introduced the battle grounds, I found myself in there with a lvl 20 character more often than I did lvl 50 RvR.
Instancing. nothing is worse than ruining your epic, immersive, tale with other people camping a boss. You need instancing, hands down.
Instead of making a post on getting rid of features that have "progressed" the MMO world, how about asking that all these features be implimented in a moderate fashion. WAR I think will impliment everything I like and everything you like.
Just like the quote above says, it seems like the old school players are like a bunch of old men remebering the good old days when they had to crank their cars and play football without padding. Sorry times have changed and the MMO games have added new features to allow more people to enjoy the games.
This guy... must of read my mind and made what I thought sound smarter! I agree with this
There are the old time MMOers who were around for UO, DAoC, EQ, and AC. They were the first, and to many who played them, the best. They were much more in depth, and had a general higher repsect for the player. Or maybe its lack or respect? I don't know. They didn't hold your hand, throw exp at you for free, shower you with loot and quests, and there were actual penalites, they didn't dumb down content, they made games for the money, yes, but they also wanted to make actual RPGs with communities.
Then there is the post WoW faction who has never played an MMO prior to WoW (sad majority of people) they probably wouldn't have been able to handle the pioneer MMOs due to their learning curve. The simplicity of WoW and the following MMOs pulled them in and they never experienced a true living community, without instances, without task quests that throw exp at you, but they seem to enjoy it.
Then there are a few that bleed over from the first generation and don't miss the old games at all. (strange)
I'm curious to know where you fall.
This is basically true. I started out in the end of the old school gamer when I played DAOC. I loved the game but it had features I could not stand.
I hated their dungeons. you sat in one spot and farmed. I prefer WoW's instanced dungeons anyday. You move through a gauntlet of set battles that are difficult and require a range of tactics to ocmplete. I never did that crap in DAOC.
I loved crafting in DAOC. It had lots of customization, BUT when you hit lvl 50 the only reason to enter a high end dungeon were for item drops. so getting rid of these uber dungeon items takes away from the game.
Anybody who slightly knows exp knows that some games must lower exp when people group up because they kill mobs way too damn fast and could level up nearly 5x faster than when solo. This could be game breaking depending on how the EXP system works. So some games have to lower exp when people group up. Besides most games simply have you divide up the exp of each mob amongst the team.
Small scale PvP has the best battles. You are at your prime then. You have a few selected targets and you must use all of yoru skills appropriately to win the battle. In large scale battles you simply spam 2 moves on large groups of people, or like in daoc, you sit around outside a keep and repeatedly crank you siege weapon. In DAOC small scale battles were the best PvP. When they introduced the battle grounds, I found myself in there with a lvl 20 character more often than I did lvl 50 RvR.
Instancing. nothing is worse than ruining your epic, immersive, tale with other people camping a boss. You need instancing, hands down.
Instead of making a post on getting rid of features that have "progressed" the MMO world, how about asking that all these features be implimented in a moderate fashion. WAR I think will impliment everything I like and everything you like.
Just like the quote above says, it seems like the old school players are like a bunch of old men remebering the good old days when they had to crank their cars and play football without padding. Sorry times have changed and the MMO games have added new features to allow more people to enjoy the games.
This guy... must of read my mind and made what I thought sound smarter! I agree with this
Agreed, this was a very good post that probably explains how a lot of people feel. Even the "new" generation of MMO players think back to their older times in their MMO career. I remember playing WoW with the 40 man raids, loved every bit of it. But I agree, the times have changed. Like any aspect of this world, things evolve and change some times subtle to drastic.
Time to move on and play what you think is best for you, if you can't find any MMOs try off-line games.
Skills are no different then levels. Oblivion was absolutely boring as every mob was your equal, easiest way to win is never level past 1.
I've been a crafter and I have been an adventurer so I know both sides. Unfortunately there is more adventurers and they dont want to be chained to a crafter, but crafters want to make stuff people will want.
Instances are useful. Adonis, shortly after Shadowlands, Anarchy Online, there was only so many hecklers in the zone. It could only support so many teams and was the only way to level past 200 (it was Funcom so of course half of the expansion wasnt even implemented at launch, dont think AoC was special). Past that limit and you were shit out of luck with no alternative to sk gain. Instancing could have made an already horrible experience a bit more accommodating. I call for a mix of open world, public instances (I miss trains lol) and private instances
Some of you have added some great points that I agree with, some of you have changed my view a little and some of you I completely disagree with.
Either way, I think I either didn't explain myself clearly enough or came off the wrong way on a couple of things.
first, I don't think every MMO should remove all of these things from their games. I just want some MMO's to do this, so that there are games for every type of player. Most of the games coming out now all the same or very similar in game-play and features.
1) Levels
on my comment about having a skill based system over levels, I don't mean a system where you can get every skill and be done. I guess what I meant to say was remove levels and classes. I am tired of games where you get enough xp and the number above your head goes up by 1, along with giving you the abilities that everyone else with your class has at that level. Give players a choice. I'm sick of games with classes where depending on what I chose at the very beginning, I'm the same as everyone else that chooses that. And if I want to change what my character does, I have to re-roll and re-grind a new character. The system I liked the best was the pre-NGE star wars galaxies skill system. You were limited to how many skills you could get, but you could change your skills at any time, and most non-fotm's had a unique character with unique skills.
2) Loot based economies
On this note, I didn't mean a game where gear doesn't mean anything, I meant a game where the best gear doesn't get dropped by some monster. I want games to have crafters making the best gear, and the quality of the gear is dependent on the quality of the components used to make it. Find, aquire, steal the best components to get the best gear crafted for you. Not making you run the same dungeon over and over until you get that drop you want to make you better.
5) Boring linear gameplay
On this topic what some of you have said has changed my mind a little, but also made me think further into what I said and take back a little bit. I don't want the complete removal of quests. I want the complete removal of boring pointless quests. The "Go kill 20 angry beavers" quests or the "Deliver this letter" quests or the "Find 5298234 of this item I accidentally dropped all over the ground like an idiot" quests need to be removed. There pointless, there boring, and there pointless. Give some creativity to quests, and most importantly, MAKE THEM MEAN SOMETHING. I want my actions in the game to affect the game around me. A quest like "Find an enemy encampment and destroy it" where finding and destroying the non static camp(you know, I would have to search for it, look for signs of enemy movement, think a little to find it) allows me to take any valuable supplies they may have, give me experience points, and reduce the enemy NPC presence in the sector sounds like an awesome way to progress to me. It needs to be FUN, MEANINGFUL, and REWARDING(experience is fine, don't shower me with items for no reason). Most quests in most games today only have 1 of these things(rewarding)
7) Official forums
While Official forums do have there good points, they are usually over run by the cry babies pretty quickly and rarely listen to by the devs. A main website is still a viable way to get information about the game to the players without including forums.
9) I don't not like small scale PvP in general, I don't like small scale instanced PvP. My mistake for not being clear. I don't like a system where I click a button and wait for the computer to put me in an instance with other people to fight. Make the pvp mean something and be random, sometimes you are outnumbered, sometimes you aren't. Instanced pvp doesn't allow this.
But good input over all guys. Again you can disagree with me all you want, this is just what I want in a game.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
pvp balances that effect PvE (to me its bloody lazy programming)
childish pvp (not everyone should be able to kill everyone easily. some should be epic fights were a roll of the dice (or random numbers) determine who wins and gear doesnt play a role)
reduction in the effect of stat boosting items. stat boosting items should only be in high level dungeons and should only give a slight boos (+5% accuracy or damage)
some more skill based MMO's (half and half really. levels are ok in some games)
rethink endgame. dungeons are good fun (5 or 6 in a group) and we need more, endgame should be easy to get into and fun to play. rewards are only an added bonus
boost xp in grouping do not penalize it
always (emphasis on always) be looking to improve the 1-max level content NOT always focussed on endgame)
the big one for me is the last one. i am happy to keep playing the current crop of MMO's (even if they are a bit frustrating at times) if they implement that. we all like the first run from 1-max level but the 2nd and 3rd times are harder. its even worse if said game has been out for years and nothing has been added to the low level zones.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
1) Levels. I find levels okay. I would just like a system that allows you to pick up other professions (Ryzom) or allows you to drop skill points to pick up another profession (SWG 2003-2005) 2) Loot based economies This depends on how the game was envisioned. Some games are crafting centered (EvE) while others are loot centered (WoW). If you don't care to develop a deep system of crafting, or if you question your players dedication to crafting, for the love of god please loot. 3) Simplicity People have different, and conflicting ideas of what a challenge is..For Lineage 2, WoW Epic players, and old SWG Jedi, the challenge was the endless grind. I don't necessarily consider this a challenge (but, I would never do it, so it's a self challenge). The one thing you need to get over is the player guide. Communities love to post guides. They make even the most "challenging" thing rudimentary. 4) XP penalties for grouping Agreed. 5) Boring linear gameplay Agreed. I never ran the Jedi grind, but I loved hunting groups, no matter what their reason. There is a myth out there that spin groups were only for the J-grind, but I found myself there pretty often to try out every profession, help level a guildie, and then as a doc to help the others and get hides. It got pretty hairy sometimes too! Our choice had rewards, and it was fun. 6) FANTASY! Agreed. 7) Official forums I like official forums. I do not like scouring the internet for a place to offline chat with current players of a game, or moreover, the company to whom I am paying money. Tabula Rasa decided forums were not necessary. They also decided that a heart, soul, and story was also something to leave on the cutting room floor. 8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree) Agreed. I didn't mind RoTW. But, as you said. Even their instances were large enough to handle multiple groups. Chances are they could have pulled off the entire expansion with higher spawn rates. 9) Small Scale PvP Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP! Dunno what to say on this one. PvP in my experience has always been greater numbers win (period). Sometimes I thought the battleground would be great. I will never know though. I prefer the numbered battleground for FPS games since Quake 3 Fortress (2002). I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.
I like things simple, I dont want my MMO to feel like work, I dont want it to be complicated to where I cant learn to play it by the time I get level 10. I like to have solo content, and lots of it, group leveling means leveling with idiots. I may be one of the masses, but im no dumbass. (Not saying you called me one, just stateing it outloud). I just like the game for what it is. WoW and other mass MMOs have the easiest, yet funnest gameplay experiences i've ever had. I never felt a "grind" going to level 70.
Did you ever think that these 3 comments you made might be, just maybe, related? Perhaps a game being simple and easy has a positive correlation with the amount of "idiots" in the game? Perhaps complexity in a game has not only the advantage of challenging the player, but simultaneously pre-screens the game and removes the "idiots" before they ever get a footing?
I personally found very few "idiots" in Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE. Sure, there were people I didn't like, and people I didn't get along with, but those were more clashes of personalities or un-supported actions. In complex games I've rarely found the rude, poor grammar, babbling idiots that you find over-running the simple games.
Just another benefit of complexity.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
1) Levels. Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems! 2) Loot based economies Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers! 3) Simplicity Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me! 4) XP penalties for grouping This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again! 5) Boring linear gameplay I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress! 6) FANTASY! For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original! 7) Official forums Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it! 8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree) Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult. A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot. 9) Small Scale PvP Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP! I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.
And after you take all this out of mmos,your left with a Console game.I agree with most of this all except the questing.The problem with questing in todays mmo's is they are not epic with awesome storylines like they should have.Once Questing is removed what do you want solid grinding? What are you supposed to do then?
And after you take all this out of mmos,your left with a Console game.I agree with most of this all except the questing.The problem with questing in todays mmo's is they are not epic with awesome storylines like they should have.Once Questing is removed what do you want solid grinding? What are you supposed to do then?
Use your imagination, they are doing prety well in EVE, and as far as i am concerned there is no grinding.
the quests you do them for your guild/corp/clan/faction/alliance
example 1 (EVE)
your guild needs to farm x amount of ore, they need a "fighter" to protect the "miner"
mission objectives: primary: the miner must survive, secondary, kill any incoming threat
example 2 (SWG)
the guild crafter needs x amount of hides to make new chairs and sofas for the guild hall.
mission objectives, primary: find and locate (insertname) hides, of quality 500 or more, secondary: kill and loot (insertname) to gather the hides and bring them back to the crafter.
example 3...
ok i need to go to a meeting so use your imagination and fill in the example 3.
you do not need quests given by NPCs for an MMO to work, its the community that makes it work or not. if its open with very few limitations then the human nature will take over and create a living breathing interindependent world.
1) Levels. Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems! I have to agree and disagree. While i agree leveling does limit content, it brings people together in the sense that people play in the same areas with the same objectives, and can play together. Rather than just picking up random people to go adventure in some random place. for no reason. 2) Loot based economies Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers! Heres where we get into trouble, Why do crafters feel they should get more effort out of their work then adventurers who want to put in the same amount of work? Not everyone likes to craft. Why should the people who don't want to craft be penalized.
A real suggestion would be to have crafting and adventuring both offer equal rewards for equal effort. If it takes on average for a player to get a full set of armor, say 50 hours, from monster drops. Then it should take 50 hours of crafting. It's not fair? it really is fair. 3) Simplicity Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me! Heres the thing. Your not asking for a more challenging game, your asking for a more tedious and technologically backwards game.
Remove maps? people will mod it, because its not fun running around in the middle of nowhere anymore. We've all seen sci fi and fantasy worlds in 3d before, the charm of adventuring into unknown areas without a massive game experience or comparison was what was fun.
Making things overly complicated isn't a good thing. But what is a good thing, is making simple things to do, very difficult to achieve.
You should never have to fight the games systems to do what you want, but rather work hard along with a good system to get what you want. 4) XP penalties for grouping This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again! The XP penalty is placed because there has to be a purpose to soloing. A good game will offer a solo and group choice, if you didn't get a xp penalty in groups, what would happen is the solo game being effectively neutered, because a group could kill 4-8x as fast for the same reward. By scaling xp to be the same if not a LITTLE bit better, it allows for both players to feel like they are achieving something.
Along with group content generally offering better non exp rewards, such as cash, and items and possibly crafting materials. 5) Boring linear gameplay I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress! Heres where I am torn.
1. Questing allows you to play with a series of achievements, and story, and well content. In WoW the quests were fun the first time you did em, remember doing the defias chain in westfall for the first time, and going into deadmines with your group(when it wasnt easymode as it is now) and coming across a goblin forge, and a underground ship? To kill the named boss, and then finish up the story coming from the item he drops?
It was a lot of fun.
2. I have genuinely had some fun experiences with just group playing. Look at EQ2 for example, it had a good open dungeon system for group content. If a game was about exploring dungeons and forests, with a style similar to eq2 adventuring. Then sure, i would be up for it.
But just grinding mobs over and over and over and over and over and over and over. ala eq1, daoc, eqoa, and the like simply isn't fun anymore. I can go play a game thats fun to play all the time, rather then sitting in LFG, or just grinding the same mobs, or even worse, sitting in a spot, while one person pulls mobs to us for hours.
Do you honestly want to go back to that? Don't romanticize how it is. Because it wasn't that grand. 6) FANTASY! For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original! I agree and disagree. Fantasy is used because it allows for custom worlds to be created, with their own rules, and while things do share similarities it does not have a giant we r the same vibe going for it. For example play vanguard, play wow, and then go play eq2. all fantasy games, but they don't feel like its the same world with the same races.
But then we go into sci fi. They either try too hard and get rediculous aliens(jaba the hut) or they end up with a endless supply of humanoid aliens where the only difference is the color of the skin, and moderate facial features such as blue tentacles, forehead ridges, pointy ears, blue skin, red skin, glowing eyes. let alone that aliens all just use fantasy archetypes for races. The smart noble races(elves), the not as smart but warlike/mean races(orcs and dwarves). etc.
Then we get into weaponry, A spaceship is a spaceship is a spaceship. I haven't seen anything in years from any form of sci fi, that changes this. A humanoid spaceship looks like the enterprise, or tie fighters, they all are the same. Then theres the alien ships which are either just slightly altered humanoid. Or they have the covenant "smooth and organic" looking, such as, as i said the covenent, the protoss, etc etc.
Then for some reason, people still fight with light sabers and other swords? deflecting bullets, and lasers? Then theres the guns, which are either truely futuristic(star trek), or they are sci fi, where they are generally current day weapons which are larger, do basically the same things, or have some random gimmick thrown on them, that doesn't relate to how a truely futuristic society would engineer their weapons.
Then theres planet exploration. Why are there beasts which can take a laser shot, or tons of bullets, they are animals, they didn't evolve bullet proof, skin would never be bullet proof like it is. heck getting shot once would send almost any animals fleeing in terror. Not the relentless charge shown in movies and games. I personally would rather have a game that takes todays world and environments and uses them in a fantasy/sci fi kind of way. No silly lasers, no silly reverse engineering of alien weaponry. Weither its a alien invasion similar to the setting of cloverfield(but obviously not just one giant enemy). The world of darkness setting(which is in development... yay). Or hell even a GTA mmo based off the GTA 4 engine/world, would be interesting and involving if done right. Horror is a way underused mmo genre. It would be great to be in a world thats genuinely dark and creepy. Could you imagine playing condemned in a entire city the size of a GTA world? That would be intense. Especially if it was ffa pvp, with consequences. It doesn't have to jump from fantasy to sci fi, both have been done, give us something new or give us something thats been proven to be fun and successful. 7) Official forums Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it! Agree and disagree. I agree because ive seen todays forums, i disagree because ive seen todays forums. Basically im just looking to see how war handles it, if it does as good of a job as it did with daoc then i will fully support no OF, but if it hurts because of it, then i want OF 8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree) Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult. A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot. No. Instancing actually makes pickup grouping easier. But i do agree with real world dungeons and areas. And frankly it's something i've always wondered, why aren't there any real open area style challenges? For example a enemy city generally is a series of pathways. Why not a real open city, not instanced, out in the world, that is populated like a city, be a dungeon style area. Or even a forest? Or in the mountains. Why is it always pathways and clearings, pathways and caves, pathways and... pathways!
But instancing allows for a group to meet up at a common objective suitable to their capabilities, and take their time and enjoy the content. Should everything be instanced? no. But they have their place and when used right, truely enhance the game. 9) Small Scale PvP Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP! I have to disagree with removing it, but i would agree that there needs to be world pvp. But not FFA PvP how the PKs want it. That's just stupid and will ruin the game faster then you and i can blink. I've posted my ideas in pk threads, and i won't go through it again.
But world pvp where cities mean something beyond just being a base, but rather a part of the world even becoming a capital city. Where resource areas are fought over and worked hard in. Where you and your city are one of the driving forces in the game, akin to stormwind or ironforge, or orgrimmar in wow. And then having it be a collapsable, either from the inside(ie conflict or corruption) or the outside(ie a attack)
But sometimes just pvping in a arena or a bg can be fun if you want to fight without the hassle of "where can i find some pvp", or you just want to jump into the fight.
And frankly thats exactly what WAR is doing. And thats why i am looking forward to it(note not the city building, but the world pvp and then "fun" scenarios) I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.
I like things simple, I dont want my MMO to feel like work, I dont want it to be complicated to where I cant learn to play it by the time I get level 10. I like to have solo content, and lots of it, group leveling means leveling with idiots. I may be one of the masses, but im no dumbass. (Not saying you called me one, just stateing it outloud). I just like the game for what it is. WoW and other mass MMOs have the easiest, yet funnest gameplay experiences i've ever had. I never felt a "grind" going to level 70.
Did you ever think that these 3 comments you made might be, just maybe, related? Perhaps a game being simple and easy has a positive correlation with the amount of "idiots" in the game? Perhaps complexity in a game has not only the advantage of challenging the player, but simultaneously pre-screens the game and removes the "idiots" before they ever get a footing?
I personally found very few "idiots" in Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE. Sure, there were people I didn't like, and people I didn't get along with, but those were more clashes of personalities or un-supported actions. In complex games I've rarely found the rude, poor grammar, babbling idiots that you find over-running the simple games.
Just another benefit of complexity.
Opinions vs. Opinions. Who wins? No one, because opinions are like.. you know, and everyone has one, just because a game is simple doesn't mean its FULL of idiots. I've meet alot of good people in WoW etc. Most of the people I've played with weren't the idiot you speak of.
And after you take all this out of mmos,your left with a Console game.I agree with most of this all except the questing.The problem with questing in todays mmo's is they are not epic with awesome storylines like they should have.Once Questing is removed what do you want solid grinding? What are you supposed to do then?
Use your imagination, they are doing prety well in EVE, and as far as i am concerned there is no grinding.
the quests you do them for your guild/corp/clan/faction/alliance
example 1 (EVE)
your guild needs to farm x amount of ore, they need a "fighter" to protect the "miner"
mission objectives: primary: the miner must survive, secondary, kill any incoming threat
example 2 (SWG)
the guild crafter needs x amount of hides to make new chairs and sofas for the guild hall.
mission objectives, primary: find and locate (insertname) hides, of quality 500 or more, secondary: kill and loot (insertname) to gather the hides and bring them back to the crafter.
example 3...
ok i need to go to a meeting so use your imagination and fill in the example 3.
you do not need quests given by NPCs for an MMO to work, its the community that makes it work or not. if its open with very few limitations then the human nature will take over and create a living breathing interindependent world.
Not every game should be the same and No I do not like Eve its a fine game,but I would rather feel like I am accomplishing something while I am at it ,other than select this skill and wait 2 weeks to get it.I played Eve and it was an ok game to me I am not dishing it others like it not me.In SWG as a crafter what do you do for the most part to level,ahh let me see you make this item over n over until you run out of resources and rinse and repeat. Leveling a crafter in SWG sucks,its only when its finished does the crafting in there begins to be fun.Example Number 3 Not every gamer is a Hard core gamer and actually has a Real Life and is not interested in Living in a Game.
1. Some games have skill based systems... But people are nostalgic creatures and enjoy the number. It shows you have attained more power because you spent time here devoting your all to it. It shows dedication, rather than just a number. But Skill systems work just as well. Just because you have the skills/abilities, doesn't mean you know how to use them. I have often in games, used a 'lowbie' char, or rather... One with lower skills on the list... And killed people with better skills. Having them is one thing, knowing how to properly utilize them is another entirely.
2. Loot based systems can be altered or abolished. An alteration would be... NO RARE ITEMS. That is correct, every item has an equal amount of chance to drop as the next. If a mob is carrying one of 10 drops on him, each has a 10% chance to drop. That means you'd not have to farm a baddie endlessly... Only a few hours or less and you'd have all they have to give. I hate games that for example, Cabal Online has these hover board and hover bikes... They have the LOWEST drop rate of any item in any game ever made in the history of gaming. Someone calculated the drop rate to the point, you could literally play the game for 2 years... And never once acquire the drop! *That is 2 years in game time, not real life time.
3. Simplicity... Go play Age Of Armor. It is one of the most complex mech games out there. But still, it is sort of like Armored Core Light, as that game was the deepest ever made... Far as I know. You want even harder gameplay set in a more sci fi fantasy setting? Load up Anarchy Online. The amount of skill paths and stat paths is overwhelming to anyone that isn't a seasoned gamer. *Extra pepper on the gamer please.
4. Agreed. Penalties for being with friends is absurd. Most game don't have this tho. In AOA as I aforementioned, if you group with a full 6, you get almost double xp I believe. Same thing in 9dragons and various other games I've play. One tiny problem with AOA, either bad translation or something... If you kill an enemy mob that is 5 or more levels over you... Showing how well you built your char and how powerful you are... The game TAKES exp away from you! That is completely backwards of just about all games. Actually, I've played a few that if the mob is too high, it just don't give any exp at all. Stupid.
5. Questing isn't so bad if you do it tastefully. If it is not WRITTEN, but SPOKEN verbally, in your language of choice in the options... Completely voice acted. Then it becomes more entertaining. You don't need to hire famous people to do it either. 2moons had people submit voice samples of people saying lines... And although it was just a line or 2 here and there, it brought the atmosphere up. Now I've played offline games with voice acting, but sometimes it seems emotionless. Either get a Animé cast to do it... Or have people submit the stuff you want. Sure it'll take ages to sort through all them and hear them all and choose the good ones... But it is cheaper and more of a better way to get people to play a fun game... Or else it will come a day when you will have to hire people to be NPCS! Make the quests, say to fetch something from somewhere... Make it worth your while and time. It should require a party to do it. ALL Quests should require a party. That way you get the Multiplayer going. And people will ALWAYS want to party with you, if they want to quest.
6. Fantasy MMO's are the money maker right now. Although AOA is mech based and sci fi... So is RF Online. And then there is the genre that you can't even put a category on... Ryzom comes to mind. Just watch the videos on the site... You are like "What the heck is THAT thing?". This leads to another topic... NO MORE GENERIC MONSTERS! That's right, I said it. Tired of fighting you 1 billionth spider variation? Tired of hunting your millionth wolf of some kind? What, a giant? Where? Oh yeah, just make it bigger. And the main problem of ALL games... Palate swap FTW! Change its colors or invert them, this makes the thing stronger for some reason! Does this work for my char too? Can I splash paint on me for a tie-dye look and instantly become 4 times stronger?! Heck yeah, I'd be all for that lol. Seriously, we need to have things like Ryzom. Mobs that no one has ever seen before. No, I have NOT played Ryzom (yet).
7. Forums are good, but only if they are PLAYER owned and operated. Not 'official'. Why? Because they hire people to be moderators... Or run a search for the most adolescent people they can find... And these people hoard their omnipotent power of deletion of posts, or ban of people... I refuse to be blocked. I happen to live in one of the countries with freedom of speech. I will be 'heard' I erm, mean READ! Speaking of which, some idiot - yes an idiot... Removed one of my posts on THIS website. I happen to save a copy of every post I make, the url and the time and date of it. So I know I posted it. But someone went all ninja-like and deleted it. Didn't give me a warning, or explain why they did it. Didn't message me in my inbox or email me... Nothing! So apparently I am too thought provoking for MMORPG.com's hired goons.
8. Down with instance dungeons! There should be access to a dungeon through a mine shaft or something... And EVERYONE that wants to go in there can at will. 2moons has this sort of... Their dungeons are accessed by everyone. But they also have instanced ones... Which I don't like. And not only that, if you took the size and scope of Perfect World... And made a DUNGEON that was THAT BIG and huge... That everyone could go to like the underworld any time they wanted... Now that would be amazing. That game is quite massive... But we've all seen bigger of course. (I can't think of any game bigger than EverQuest. I was told some guy started walking, and it took him 2 weeks to walk the whole game. No fighting at all, just strolling along.) Anyway, dungeons should be open to everyone at all times. Not random spawned, or you must have a party of certain levels to enter it. I still think a party should be required for all quests. Dungeons are optional, like the 'over world'... You can party if you wish.
9. PVP should always be OPTIONAL. A button you can turn on that has like an icon next to you that says, sure... I'd like to pvp any time you want to. But you would still have to be challenged formally. REMOVE PK'ING ENTIRELY! No more PK, EVER again. I am sick of playing solo or out with a group of friends and people show up hours later and 'claim' this spot is theirs or something... Then they wipe us all out, or we kick their butts... I hate being attacked when I am minding my own business. If I am on a quest, especially a TIMED quest (everyone's favorite...) the LAST thing I want to do is be killed and have to re-do the entire quest again! PK'ing should be removed from every single game made, and never implemented for all games to come. This is a subject I am very passionate about. I like to play solo on occasion, and of course party as well... I don't like to be randomly attacked by a much higher level player that is having a bad day... Or is a demented simpleton... Or just is a rotten evil bastard... Nope, I would rather a formal challenge that pops up on screen. And, maybe take it a step further... You can only challenge someone that is NOT in a battle with something... Another person or mob or whatnot. I don't believe we should limit PvP to a certain area... I mean, throw an arena in there for people that want their name on a board. This shows who has earned that spot up there... A Ranking system. But, you don't HAVE to go there to PvP... Also, maybe a feature where you can record your battles and people can go to the arena like a theater and watch how you accomplished it. Like a lower level taking out someone 10 or more levels... Or has more skills than them... That would be fun to see. We also need a PvP text/chat channel... That allows people to issue challenges... And to be invited to the spectacle!
(10.) I refuse to pay for any online game. Why should I pay the electric bill, the cable bill, have purchased a expensive PC, then (maybe) purchased the game from a store... Now you want me to pay you $15 a month?! You are out of your damn mind - period! Get rid of paying for games per month. That is just stupid. You can have advertising that is subtle in there. Whether it is within the games context or not...
(11.) If you are going to have a Item Mall/Cash Shop... Build a damn mall in the game! A place where we can go and look at the items. Try them on... (Asda Story has something similar. If you click on an item to buy in the npc shop, it 'equips' to you and you can see what it looks like. But this requires certain positioning of your char for full effect.) If we are going to pay in game currency or real world money for an item... I want to be able to SEE it first! Number one rule of business, 'Never buy something sight unseen!'. If it is a ride/mount... I want to be able to take it for a test drive in the mall's built in little track/race track. If it is a mount that I can use to fly... I want to ride on the damn thing for 20 minutes until I am good at it... Even car dealerships allow you to test drive their vehicle before you buy it! C'mon people, think about it!
(12.) 'Bosses' or whatever you wish to call them these days. Make them Epic Titans in size... RF Online has some massive ones... But I want bosses the size of the ones in Shadow Of The Colossus! And yes, it would not only take a party to kill it... but MANY MANY parties! And Exp goes to EVERYONE who attacked it, as long as they were in a party. It doesn't go to the party that killed the thing. Everyone gets it. And on top of that... Legendary loot that bosses are known to drop... Well, how about a random system that gives all attackers something instantly in their inventory? Instead of ninja-looters or having things drop... People would go into a boss fight with a nearly empty inventory, ready to receive a goody. And EVERYONE gets something! Although some people would get a more valuable or rare item, everyone gets at least something. And not crap either, not a potion or something. A cool leveled up weapon or something, a ton of money... But some lucky people in the randomly selected party would get not only the rewards everyone else got... But a bonus on top of it, something REALLY worth killing a boss for. Like a Flying Mount or a potion/pill that gives invincibility for 24 hours.
(13.) This leads me to "Timed Items". That 24 hours would be GAMEPLAY time, when you are logged in. Not when you are at work or asleep. That is just wrong... Stop that!
(14.) Stalls/Shops/Kiosk Screw them all! I mean it. Remove this from games. The amount of lag I get in the Malaysian Perfect World Oracle Sever at ADC... I literally can not move 10 feet in 5 minutes! RF Online has a nice 'auction house' system. It isn't really an auction at all. People put up an item, and the price they want for it... And you either buy it or you don't. I do NOT like the fact that the auction takes a percentage of your price away as comission. And this money goes to like the top guild/guild leader... Or whatever happens to it. Stop robbing us for using a service that should be free! If anything, have a salesman's license you can purchase for something... And this allows you to sell on it for free... For like 6 months... Then you must buy a new one. Kinda like some car insurance. Whether or not you make this a 'cash shop' item or not is up to you.
(15.) Cash Shop items... If you want our money for something, that is fine. But much like Perfect World or Rohan... Give us the option to EARN the 'cash shop currency' with in game currency and hard work/play/fun. Don't just reward the rich people out there... Or people that spend money like water, just cause they have no sense. I understand you worked hard for that money, either by yourself in a actual job... Or as a little kid begging his parents... (or mowing lawns or chores.) But you shouldn't be able to just throw TONS at the game... There should be a limit to how much you can purchase off the item shop in a month or something. Preferably in a week. Some people have no sense in when to stop shopping lol. So cap it at like $50 a month or better yet, every OTHER month! And you'll have to wait until next time...
(16.) Losing Exp Or Items when you die. This is the most unforgivable thing you can ever do to a person... Make them have to replay 'levels' or regain the same exp they already earned... Remove this 'feature' before something really bad happens... Like you stop having ANY players at all.
Really, I could go on and on... But I already posted we need a Gamers Forum/Site built that we can go and create our own game... And then someone make that damn thing. We shouldn't all be required to instantly go to college or something to learn how to program and draw and such... Just so we can make our dream game... That would take YEARS. Meanwhile, the rest of us suffer with good ideas that won't get made for years to come... I understand someone has to do the learning and such... But like actors don't write the scripts... They just memorize and recite... Gamers should create the game worlds in TEXT... Then others can go make the game. Btw, view my other posts to see some really good incites on this and other topics. *Shameless plug for my work and effort.*
In conclusion... INCLUDE - the Gamer in everything. Don't keep people in the dark. Don't keep secrets that you reveal at a convention. It isn't like the vast majority of your target market is going to have enough money to take an air plane to your show and see stuff there. Plus the money for hotels, and food and all that is included with a trip. That is just wrong. You need to create a web site... Get some promotion from a tv ad or something... And word of mouth will spread like wild fire. Then the gamers can suggest stuff to put in or take out of your game. Have everything you are going to put in the game, all your ideas and features... All of it typed up and maybe with sketches... That way, within the context of the game genre you are making... We gamers can come in and say, this is good - do this. Or this is crap, take that out immediately and slap the guy/girl who thought of it!
Comments
You're the majority... just not on these forums. Well, most people aren't aware that they are being led down a path, which is sad, cause they've never had anything better to compare it to.
The thing that stings is the loyal fans that made the MMO genre happen are being sold out for high subscription numbers to bring in noobs. Its happening all over gaming. Games are getting easier and easier (some good, most bad) to appeal to masses, leaving us people who were there the whole time, pulling for the company, in the dust.
I like things simple, I dont want my MMO to feel like work, I dont want it to be complicated to where I cant learn to play it by the time I get level 10. I like to have solo content, and lots of it, group leveling means leveling with idiots. I may be one of the masses, but im no dumbass. (Not saying you called me one, just stateing it outloud). I just like the game for what it is. WoW and other mass MMOs have the easiest, yet funnest gameplay experiences i've ever had. I never felt a "grind" going to level 70.
Op made mistake by calling this topic what mmo's should get rid of
Other wise you would not have to reply here now he starts a campaing of saying all themeparks should be chancing to more sandbox style, and thats also bit narrow minded appraoch.
Better have some new mmo's made in sandbox style and more deviate from the fantasy.
Dont think the more sandbox oriented players want there game full with themepark style gamers becouse you get problem then of whole day players whining its to difficult to play.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
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Talking about SWG much?
You actually played the Sims Online? Wow. You might just be the only person I've ever met on this forum who played that . . . game. See all the games on the list to the left? All are about fighting and killing. In fact, just about every MMO has fighting or killing in some respect. Ok, Second Life is out, good. I'm actually thankful you didn't like that. Kaneva, never heard of it.
There is only one compelling MMORPG which has no real combat, and that's A Tale in the Desert. I'd say it's incredibly repetitive, but if you liked TSO, it shouldn't be a problem. The gameplay is a lot more interesting in ATitD than it is TSO, I'd say. Tale is a very different kind of game. It's really about being part of a civilization. Basically, you keep building up your personal holdings, helping your people along the way, then the game starts over fresh. There aren't really any levels or skills. You just kinda build. As for the economy, it's all word-of-mouth stuff. You'd have to find somebody in person and contract them to make what you need.
I'd try ATitD for a while. I'm telling you to give it an honest shot because if you don't like it, you might not find anything else.
lol I tried EA land, didn't hold my interest really.
1) Skills do give more options to the player and I like them for that, but like levels they are the sole determination of how strong your character is and also like levels progress linearly.
2) I agree I would prefer crafted items over dropped, but having a character with a high crafting skill falls into the same catergory as time > skill, play the game longer and you can craft better items.
3) Can't think of a challenging MMO, since they are built around automation it is hard to challange the player, most MMOs boil down to being able to read the skills and haveing enough sense to use them at the right time, but ultimatly the key to success is timeinvestment. For a challenge I think you would need less automation, more player involvement and a large variety of actions. Also I would add simplicity does not have to be the opposite of depth, idealy I think making a game simple to understand is a hallmark of good design.
4) Agree, but if you are using skills then there is no need for xp.
5) Quests or otherwise the game is linear, even with skills, you still follow a linear path to level up. So even without quests or levels you are being funneled to where the content is for your skill level.
6) I never was a big fan of swords and soccery type fantasy, though I don't much like sci-fi either, I find them both to be very cheesey.
7) I never use them so I wouldn't know.
8) If done excessively it is bad but having the occasional area instanced does not bother me, more importantly why do we need dungeons in the first place?
9) Agree, areanas though convienant do become really repetitive.
As a prevous poster wrote about the two genereations, I don't think I am in either of those two.
I played the older MMOs, they had some great ideas but I found them dull and time consuming and repetitive. I played the newer MMOs, they are more lively and faster but they are repetitive and pointless.
I really like the concept of MMOs and I can have fun with most anyone of them for a little while but I don't think there has been a MMO done right thus far.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
lol what games are you basing this statement on?
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
I agree with everything but 7 and 6 I really don't mind because the other 7 would be great.
Anyways, in Eve and the old SWG the forums, in my experience, serve a good purpose. They allow for the planning of community activities, the rapid dispersal of game related information (Bugs, game guides for new features, etc), and the ability to form bonds with other players. The quality of the forums is directly related to the quality of the community.
Interesting post, you bring up many good concepts.
If you seek to remove level based progression then expect to have a hardware based bias in effectively applying yourself in the world. A level-based system is implemented in an attempt to even out the playing fields for people with a variety of different power hardware platforms. By removing level-based progression you are creating an arcade style game. However, it isn't really arcade because each person has a different speed machine and the people with the most money to pour into a machine are going to be the most powerful in game.
Loot-based economies aren't an option in any present day mmo. However, I do agree with you that some of the highest end gear should be craft based. I don't think that people should be able to skip out on the crafting system without taking a gear hit someway along the line.
Simplicity, I agree. Too many games rely too heavily on repetitve AI scripts(if they can even be called AI). I think this is where live events come in; with game officials(DMs) who add the extra human element and complexity which goes along with it.
XP penalties for grouping. I don't think that groups should get experience bonuses. I do think that named monsters who drop uncommon gear should drop a single piece for every member in the group. That way every named helps out every member in the group; groups won't be minimized in an attempt to maximize the chance of getting X piece of gear(DDO has implemented a quest turn in process which is similar to allowing each group member to get an item per quest).
Most of the big games in present day give an option for linear gameplay; they are for the most part sandbox games with optional quests.
About small scale PvP, you mentioned earlier on that you were concerned about the amount of time people have to devote to progression. If PvP isn't optional then expect for anyone without a large portion of time to dedicate to progression to be driven away from the game.
Well I have to say that I don't agree with you.
1, I like levels. I could go with a completely skill based system but am very adverse to a system that allows players to be 100% in everything. That just seems lazy and takes away actual consequences of choice.
2, I like the idea of players being able to create weapons, armor, etc.
3, simplicity is no better than complexity. There is room for both. It just depends on how it is implemented.
4, I'm not sure there are xp penalties for grouping so much as not having xp bonuses for grouping. I'm all for creating content where a player receives sufficient experience for grouping. Just so long as solo players can be reasonably competitive.
5, This scares me more than anything else you've written. You don't want questing you do want grinding which is mindless. Now I personally enjoy grinding as I find it relaxing and contemplative but in its purest form it is mindless and repetitive. You then go on to say that it is fun because of people. That strikes me as you being one of those "forced grouping" type of people. You just want to shoot the shit while you grind. oh joy. More than likely I'd be one of the people who would want you to be quiet because you were talking too much. I don't sign on to hear your opinions on what tv you like or sports or any other number of things. I sign on to play a game, create a better character and apply myself to game related tasks.
6, I prefer fantasy games though I've yet to see one that gives me everything or even most things that I want. So I will wait patiently. Not realy interested in sci-fi. Pass.
7, I think forums improve communication and can foster the exchange of information as well as community. They are also moderated which is a plus for me.
8, One can actually use intstancing to tell better stories. But as you just want to grind I can see where you woudnl't like this.
9, Some of the best battles I've been in have been small scale. They have also led to larger scale battles.
Sorry but I'd rather not play game you would design. I'm sure there are others who feel the same.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There seem to be two main factions here.
There are the old time MMOers who were around for UO, DAoC, EQ, and AC. They were the first, and to many who played them, the best. They were much more in depth, and had a general higher repsect for the player. Or maybe its lack or respect? I don't know. They didn't hold your hand, throw exp at you for free, shower you with loot and quests, and there were actual penalites, they didn't dumb down content, they made games for the money, yes, but they also wanted to make actual RPGs with communities.
Then there is the post WoW faction who has never played an MMO prior to WoW (sad majority of people) they probably wouldn't have been able to handle the pioneer MMOs due to their learning curve. The simplicity of WoW and the following MMOs pulled them in and they never experienced a true living community, without instances, without task quests that throw exp at you, but they seem to enjoy it.
Then there are a few that bleed over from the first generation and don't miss the old games at all. (strange)
I'm curious to know where you fall.
This is basically true. I started out in the end of the old school gamer when I played DAOC. I loved the game but it had features I could not stand.
I hated their dungeons. you sat in one spot and farmed. I prefer WoW's instanced dungeons anyday. You move through a gauntlet of set battles that are difficult and require a range of tactics to ocmplete. I never did that crap in DAOC.
I loved crafting in DAOC. It had lots of customization, BUT when you hit lvl 50 the only reason to enter a high end dungeon were for item drops. so getting rid of these uber dungeon items takes away from the game.
Anybody who slightly knows exp knows that some games must lower exp when people group up because they kill mobs way too damn fast and could level up nearly 5x faster than when solo. This could be game breaking depending on how the EXP system works. So some games have to lower exp when people group up. Besides most games simply have you divide up the exp of each mob amongst the team.
Small scale PvP has the best battles. You are at your prime then. You have a few selected targets and you must use all of yoru skills appropriately to win the battle. In large scale battles you simply spam 2 moves on large groups of people, or like in daoc, you sit around outside a keep and repeatedly crank you siege weapon. In DAOC small scale battles were the best PvP. When they introduced the battle grounds, I found myself in there with a lvl 20 character more often than I did lvl 50 RvR.
Instancing. nothing is worse than ruining your epic, immersive, tale with other people camping a boss. You need instancing, hands down.
Instead of making a post on getting rid of features that have "progressed" the MMO world, how about asking that all these features be implimented in a moderate fashion. WAR I think will impliment everything I like and everything you like.
Just like the quote above says, it seems like the old school players are like a bunch of old men remebering the good old days when they had to crank their cars and play football without padding. Sorry times have changed and the MMO games have added new features to allow more people to enjoy the games.
I want a complex MMO, but one that eases you into the complexity...not one where you feel so overwelmed that you feel like quitting before you even get started.....
A complete tutorial that actually works and not just hanging a player out to dry after 10 minutes of playing the game.
1. I agree, I know skill based games are basicly about improving your stats and therefore level but you shouldn't be able to look at a mob and some up whether you can beat the mob just by the little number over its head. There should be indicators like size, and how mean it looks so some judgement and risk is involved.
2. Agree, although I think armour and weapons should make some difference to your effectiveness but not like wow where gear is king. Crafting should be the main way of getting useful stuff even if you buy the item off someone else who's made it.
5. Disagree, quests should be a way of making you feel like you are helping in a small way towards the goals set down by a good background story. RPG's need a good story, that is the motivation for doing things in the game. If you have no story/goal then what's the point of progressing your character?
I also agree with another post that more puzzles would be nice so you actually have to use your brain and figure it out. MMO's are pretty mindless in most cases.
There seem to be two main factions here.
There are the old time MMOers who were around for UO, DAoC, EQ, and AC. They were the first, and to many who played them, the best. They were much more in depth, and had a general higher repsect for the player. Or maybe its lack or respect? I don't know. They didn't hold your hand, throw exp at you for free, shower you with loot and quests, and there were actual penalites, they didn't dumb down content, they made games for the money, yes, but they also wanted to make actual RPGs with communities.
Then there is the post WoW faction who has never played an MMO prior to WoW (sad majority of people) they probably wouldn't have been able to handle the pioneer MMOs due to their learning curve. The simplicity of WoW and the following MMOs pulled them in and they never experienced a true living community, without instances, without task quests that throw exp at you, but they seem to enjoy it.
Then there are a few that bleed over from the first generation and don't miss the old games at all. (strange)
I'm curious to know where you fall.
This is basically true. I started out in the end of the old school gamer when I played DAOC. I loved the game but it had features I could not stand.
I hated their dungeons. you sat in one spot and farmed. I prefer WoW's instanced dungeons anyday. You move through a gauntlet of set battles that are difficult and require a range of tactics to ocmplete. I never did that crap in DAOC.
I loved crafting in DAOC. It had lots of customization, BUT when you hit lvl 50 the only reason to enter a high end dungeon were for item drops. so getting rid of these uber dungeon items takes away from the game.
Anybody who slightly knows exp knows that some games must lower exp when people group up because they kill mobs way too damn fast and could level up nearly 5x faster than when solo. This could be game breaking depending on how the EXP system works. So some games have to lower exp when people group up. Besides most games simply have you divide up the exp of each mob amongst the team.
Small scale PvP has the best battles. You are at your prime then. You have a few selected targets and you must use all of yoru skills appropriately to win the battle. In large scale battles you simply spam 2 moves on large groups of people, or like in daoc, you sit around outside a keep and repeatedly crank you siege weapon. In DAOC small scale battles were the best PvP. When they introduced the battle grounds, I found myself in there with a lvl 20 character more often than I did lvl 50 RvR.
Instancing. nothing is worse than ruining your epic, immersive, tale with other people camping a boss. You need instancing, hands down.
Instead of making a post on getting rid of features that have "progressed" the MMO world, how about asking that all these features be implimented in a moderate fashion. WAR I think will impliment everything I like and everything you like.
Just like the quote above says, it seems like the old school players are like a bunch of old men remebering the good old days when they had to crank their cars and play football without padding. Sorry times have changed and the MMO games have added new features to allow more people to enjoy the games.
This guy... must of read my mind and made what I thought sound smarter! I agree with this
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
There seem to be two main factions here.
There are the old time MMOers who were around for UO, DAoC, EQ, and AC. They were the first, and to many who played them, the best. They were much more in depth, and had a general higher repsect for the player. Or maybe its lack or respect? I don't know. They didn't hold your hand, throw exp at you for free, shower you with loot and quests, and there were actual penalites, they didn't dumb down content, they made games for the money, yes, but they also wanted to make actual RPGs with communities.
Then there is the post WoW faction who has never played an MMO prior to WoW (sad majority of people) they probably wouldn't have been able to handle the pioneer MMOs due to their learning curve. The simplicity of WoW and the following MMOs pulled them in and they never experienced a true living community, without instances, without task quests that throw exp at you, but they seem to enjoy it.
Then there are a few that bleed over from the first generation and don't miss the old games at all. (strange)
I'm curious to know where you fall.
This is basically true. I started out in the end of the old school gamer when I played DAOC. I loved the game but it had features I could not stand.
I hated their dungeons. you sat in one spot and farmed. I prefer WoW's instanced dungeons anyday. You move through a gauntlet of set battles that are difficult and require a range of tactics to ocmplete. I never did that crap in DAOC.
I loved crafting in DAOC. It had lots of customization, BUT when you hit lvl 50 the only reason to enter a high end dungeon were for item drops. so getting rid of these uber dungeon items takes away from the game.
Anybody who slightly knows exp knows that some games must lower exp when people group up because they kill mobs way too damn fast and could level up nearly 5x faster than when solo. This could be game breaking depending on how the EXP system works. So some games have to lower exp when people group up. Besides most games simply have you divide up the exp of each mob amongst the team.
Small scale PvP has the best battles. You are at your prime then. You have a few selected targets and you must use all of yoru skills appropriately to win the battle. In large scale battles you simply spam 2 moves on large groups of people, or like in daoc, you sit around outside a keep and repeatedly crank you siege weapon. In DAOC small scale battles were the best PvP. When they introduced the battle grounds, I found myself in there with a lvl 20 character more often than I did lvl 50 RvR.
Instancing. nothing is worse than ruining your epic, immersive, tale with other people camping a boss. You need instancing, hands down.
Instead of making a post on getting rid of features that have "progressed" the MMO world, how about asking that all these features be implimented in a moderate fashion. WAR I think will impliment everything I like and everything you like.
Just like the quote above says, it seems like the old school players are like a bunch of old men remebering the good old days when they had to crank their cars and play football without padding. Sorry times have changed and the MMO games have added new features to allow more people to enjoy the games.
This guy... must of read my mind and made what I thought sound smarter! I agree with this
Agreed, this was a very good post that probably explains how a lot of people feel. Even the "new" generation of MMO players think back to their older times in their MMO career. I remember playing WoW with the 40 man raids, loved every bit of it. But I agree, the times have changed. Like any aspect of this world, things evolve and change some times subtle to drastic.
Time to move on and play what you think is best for you, if you can't find any MMOs try off-line games.
Skills are no different then levels. Oblivion was absolutely boring as every mob was your equal, easiest way to win is never level past 1.
I've been a crafter and I have been an adventurer so I know both sides. Unfortunately there is more adventurers and they dont want to be chained to a crafter, but crafters want to make stuff people will want.
Instances are useful. Adonis, shortly after Shadowlands, Anarchy Online, there was only so many hecklers in the zone. It could only support so many teams and was the only way to level past 200 (it was Funcom so of course half of the expansion wasnt even implemented at launch, dont think AoC was special). Past that limit and you were shit out of luck with no alternative to sk gain. Instancing could have made an already horrible experience a bit more accommodating. I call for a mix of open world, public instances (I miss trains lol) and private instances
Some of you have added some great points that I agree with, some of you have changed my view a little and some of you I completely disagree with.
Either way, I think I either didn't explain myself clearly enough or came off the wrong way on a couple of things.
first, I don't think every MMO should remove all of these things from their games. I just want some MMO's to do this, so that there are games for every type of player. Most of the games coming out now all the same or very similar in game-play and features.
1) Levels
on my comment about having a skill based system over levels, I don't mean a system where you can get every skill and be done. I guess what I meant to say was remove levels and classes. I am tired of games where you get enough xp and the number above your head goes up by 1, along with giving you the abilities that everyone else with your class has at that level. Give players a choice. I'm sick of games with classes where depending on what I chose at the very beginning, I'm the same as everyone else that chooses that. And if I want to change what my character does, I have to re-roll and re-grind a new character. The system I liked the best was the pre-NGE star wars galaxies skill system. You were limited to how many skills you could get, but you could change your skills at any time, and most non-fotm's had a unique character with unique skills.
2) Loot based economies
On this note, I didn't mean a game where gear doesn't mean anything, I meant a game where the best gear doesn't get dropped by some monster. I want games to have crafters making the best gear, and the quality of the gear is dependent on the quality of the components used to make it. Find, aquire, steal the best components to get the best gear crafted for you. Not making you run the same dungeon over and over until you get that drop you want to make you better.
5) Boring linear gameplay
On this topic what some of you have said has changed my mind a little, but also made me think further into what I said and take back a little bit. I don't want the complete removal of quests. I want the complete removal of boring pointless quests. The "Go kill 20 angry beavers" quests or the "Deliver this letter" quests or the "Find 5298234 of this item I accidentally dropped all over the ground like an idiot" quests need to be removed. There pointless, there boring, and there pointless. Give some creativity to quests, and most importantly, MAKE THEM MEAN SOMETHING. I want my actions in the game to affect the game around me. A quest like "Find an enemy encampment and destroy it" where finding and destroying the non static camp(you know, I would have to search for it, look for signs of enemy movement, think a little to find it) allows me to take any valuable supplies they may have, give me experience points, and reduce the enemy NPC presence in the sector sounds like an awesome way to progress to me. It needs to be FUN, MEANINGFUL, and REWARDING(experience is fine, don't shower me with items for no reason). Most quests in most games today only have 1 of these things(rewarding)
7) Official forums
While Official forums do have there good points, they are usually over run by the cry babies pretty quickly and rarely listen to by the devs. A main website is still a viable way to get information about the game to the players without including forums.
9) I don't not like small scale PvP in general, I don't like small scale instanced PvP. My mistake for not being clear. I don't like a system where I click a button and wait for the computer to put me in an instance with other people to fight. Make the pvp mean something and be random, sometimes you are outnumbered, sometimes you aren't. Instanced pvp doesn't allow this.
But good input over all guys. Again you can disagree with me all you want, this is just what I want in a game.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Didnt read everyones lists , but here is mine
remove
Instancing
Zoning
soloing
the big one for me is the last one. i am happy to keep playing the current crop of MMO's (even if they are a bit frustrating at times) if they implement that. we all like the first run from 1-max level but the 2nd and 3rd times are harder. its even worse if said game has been out for years and nothing has been added to the low level zones.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Good post...
I like things simple, I dont want my MMO to feel like work, I dont want it to be complicated to where I cant learn to play it by the time I get level 10. I like to have solo content, and lots of it, group leveling means leveling with idiots. I may be one of the masses, but im no dumbass. (Not saying you called me one, just stateing it outloud). I just like the game for what it is. WoW and other mass MMOs have the easiest, yet funnest gameplay experiences i've ever had. I never felt a "grind" going to level 70.
Did you ever think that these 3 comments you made might be, just maybe, related? Perhaps a game being simple and easy has a positive correlation with the amount of "idiots" in the game? Perhaps complexity in a game has not only the advantage of challenging the player, but simultaneously pre-screens the game and removes the "idiots" before they ever get a footing?
I personally found very few "idiots" in Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE. Sure, there were people I didn't like, and people I didn't get along with, but those were more clashes of personalities or un-supported actions. In complex games I've rarely found the rude, poor grammar, babbling idiots that you find over-running the simple games.
Just another benefit of complexity.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
And after you take all this out of mmos,your left with a Console game.I agree with most of this all except the questing.The problem with questing in todays mmo's is they are not epic with awesome storylines like they should have.Once Questing is removed what do you want solid grinding? What are you supposed to do then?
Use your imagination, they are doing prety well in EVE, and as far as i am concerned there is no grinding.
the quests you do them for your guild/corp/clan/faction/alliance
example 1 (EVE)
your guild needs to farm x amount of ore, they need a "fighter" to protect the "miner"
mission objectives: primary: the miner must survive, secondary, kill any incoming threat
example 2 (SWG)
the guild crafter needs x amount of hides to make new chairs and sofas for the guild hall.
mission objectives, primary: find and locate (insertname) hides, of quality 500 or more, secondary: kill and loot (insertname) to gather the hides and bring them back to the crafter.
example 3...
ok i need to go to a meeting so use your imagination and fill in the example 3.
you do not need quests given by NPCs for an MMO to work, its the community that makes it work or not. if its open with very few limitations then the human nature will take over and create a living breathing interindependent world.
I like things simple, I dont want my MMO to feel like work, I dont want it to be complicated to where I cant learn to play it by the time I get level 10. I like to have solo content, and lots of it, group leveling means leveling with idiots. I may be one of the masses, but im no dumbass. (Not saying you called me one, just stateing it outloud). I just like the game for what it is. WoW and other mass MMOs have the easiest, yet funnest gameplay experiences i've ever had. I never felt a "grind" going to level 70.
Did you ever think that these 3 comments you made might be, just maybe, related? Perhaps a game being simple and easy has a positive correlation with the amount of "idiots" in the game? Perhaps complexity in a game has not only the advantage of challenging the player, but simultaneously pre-screens the game and removes the "idiots" before they ever get a footing?
I personally found very few "idiots" in Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE. Sure, there were people I didn't like, and people I didn't get along with, but those were more clashes of personalities or un-supported actions. In complex games I've rarely found the rude, poor grammar, babbling idiots that you find over-running the simple games.
Just another benefit of complexity.
Opinions vs. Opinions. Who wins? No one, because opinions are like.. you know, and everyone has one, just because a game is simple doesn't mean its FULL of idiots. I've meet alot of good people in WoW etc. Most of the people I've played with weren't the idiot you speak of.Currently restarting World of Warcraft
Use your imagination, they are doing prety well in EVE, and as far as i am concerned there is no grinding.
the quests you do them for your guild/corp/clan/faction/alliance
example 1 (EVE)
your guild needs to farm x amount of ore, they need a "fighter" to protect the "miner"
mission objectives: primary: the miner must survive, secondary, kill any incoming threat
example 2 (SWG)
the guild crafter needs x amount of hides to make new chairs and sofas for the guild hall.
mission objectives, primary: find and locate (insertname) hides, of quality 500 or more, secondary: kill and loot (insertname) to gather the hides and bring them back to the crafter.
example 3...
ok i need to go to a meeting so use your imagination and fill in the example 3.
you do not need quests given by NPCs for an MMO to work, its the community that makes it work or not. if its open with very few limitations then the human nature will take over and create a living breathing interindependent world.
Not every game should be the same and No I do not like Eve its a fine game,but I would rather feel like I am accomplishing something while I am at it ,other than select this skill and wait 2 weeks to get it.I played Eve and it was an ok game to me I am not dishing it others like it not me.In SWG as a crafter what do you do for the most part to level,ahh let me see you make this item over n over until you run out of resources and rinse and repeat. Leveling a crafter in SWG sucks,its only when its finished does the crafting in there begins to be fun.Example Number 3 Not every gamer is a Hard core gamer and actually has a Real Life and is not interested in Living in a Game.
1. Some games have skill based systems... But people are nostalgic creatures and enjoy the number. It shows you have attained more power because you spent time here devoting your all to it. It shows dedication, rather than just a number. But Skill systems work just as well. Just because you have the skills/abilities, doesn't mean you know how to use them. I have often in games, used a 'lowbie' char, or rather... One with lower skills on the list... And killed people with better skills. Having them is one thing, knowing how to properly utilize them is another entirely.
2. Loot based systems can be altered or abolished. An alteration would be... NO RARE ITEMS. That is correct, every item has an equal amount of chance to drop as the next. If a mob is carrying one of 10 drops on him, each has a 10% chance to drop. That means you'd not have to farm a baddie endlessly... Only a few hours or less and you'd have all they have to give. I hate games that for example, Cabal Online has these hover board and hover bikes... They have the LOWEST drop rate of any item in any game ever made in the history of gaming. Someone calculated the drop rate to the point, you could literally play the game for 2 years... And never once acquire the drop! *That is 2 years in game time, not real life time.
3. Simplicity... Go play Age Of Armor. It is one of the most complex mech games out there. But still, it is sort of like Armored Core Light, as that game was the deepest ever made... Far as I know. You want even harder gameplay set in a more sci fi fantasy setting? Load up Anarchy Online. The amount of skill paths and stat paths is overwhelming to anyone that isn't a seasoned gamer. *Extra pepper on the gamer please.
4. Agreed. Penalties for being with friends is absurd. Most game don't have this tho. In AOA as I aforementioned, if you group with a full 6, you get almost double xp I believe. Same thing in 9dragons and various other games I've play. One tiny problem with AOA, either bad translation or something... If you kill an enemy mob that is 5 or more levels over you... Showing how well you built your char and how powerful you are... The game TAKES exp away from you! That is completely backwards of just about all games. Actually, I've played a few that if the mob is too high, it just don't give any exp at all. Stupid.
5. Questing isn't so bad if you do it tastefully. If it is not WRITTEN, but SPOKEN verbally, in your language of choice in the options... Completely voice acted. Then it becomes more entertaining. You don't need to hire famous people to do it either. 2moons had people submit voice samples of people saying lines... And although it was just a line or 2 here and there, it brought the atmosphere up. Now I've played offline games with voice acting, but sometimes it seems emotionless. Either get a Animé cast to do it... Or have people submit the stuff you want. Sure it'll take ages to sort through all them and hear them all and choose the good ones... But it is cheaper and more of a better way to get people to play a fun game... Or else it will come a day when you will have to hire people to be NPCS! Make the quests, say to fetch something from somewhere... Make it worth your while and time. It should require a party to do it. ALL Quests should require a party. That way you get the Multiplayer going. And people will ALWAYS want to party with you, if they want to quest.
6. Fantasy MMO's are the money maker right now. Although AOA is mech based and sci fi... So is RF Online. And then there is the genre that you can't even put a category on... Ryzom comes to mind. Just watch the videos on the site... You are like "What the heck is THAT thing?". This leads to another topic... NO MORE GENERIC MONSTERS! That's right, I said it. Tired of fighting you 1 billionth spider variation? Tired of hunting your millionth wolf of some kind? What, a giant? Where? Oh yeah, just make it bigger. And the main problem of ALL games... Palate swap FTW! Change its colors or invert them, this makes the thing stronger for some reason! Does this work for my char too? Can I splash paint on me for a tie-dye look and instantly become 4 times stronger?! Heck yeah, I'd be all for that lol. Seriously, we need to have things like Ryzom. Mobs that no one has ever seen before. No, I have NOT played Ryzom (yet).
7. Forums are good, but only if they are PLAYER owned and operated. Not 'official'. Why? Because they hire people to be moderators... Or run a search for the most adolescent people they can find... And these people hoard their omnipotent power of deletion of posts, or ban of people... I refuse to be blocked. I happen to live in one of the countries with freedom of speech. I will be 'heard' I erm, mean READ! Speaking of which, some idiot - yes an idiot... Removed one of my posts on THIS website. I happen to save a copy of every post I make, the url and the time and date of it. So I know I posted it. But someone went all ninja-like and deleted it. Didn't give me a warning, or explain why they did it. Didn't message me in my inbox or email me... Nothing! So apparently I am too thought provoking for MMORPG.com's hired goons.
8. Down with instance dungeons! There should be access to a dungeon through a mine shaft or something... And EVERYONE that wants to go in there can at will. 2moons has this sort of... Their dungeons are accessed by everyone. But they also have instanced ones... Which I don't like. And not only that, if you took the size and scope of Perfect World... And made a DUNGEON that was THAT BIG and huge... That everyone could go to like the underworld any time they wanted... Now that would be amazing. That game is quite massive... But we've all seen bigger of course. (I can't think of any game bigger than EverQuest. I was told some guy started walking, and it took him 2 weeks to walk the whole game. No fighting at all, just strolling along.) Anyway, dungeons should be open to everyone at all times. Not random spawned, or you must have a party of certain levels to enter it. I still think a party should be required for all quests. Dungeons are optional, like the 'over world'... You can party if you wish.
9. PVP should always be OPTIONAL. A button you can turn on that has like an icon next to you that says, sure... I'd like to pvp any time you want to. But you would still have to be challenged formally. REMOVE PK'ING ENTIRELY! No more PK, EVER again. I am sick of playing solo or out with a group of friends and people show up hours later and 'claim' this spot is theirs or something... Then they wipe us all out, or we kick their butts... I hate being attacked when I am minding my own business. If I am on a quest, especially a TIMED quest (everyone's favorite...) the LAST thing I want to do is be killed and have to re-do the entire quest again! PK'ing should be removed from every single game made, and never implemented for all games to come. This is a subject I am very passionate about. I like to play solo on occasion, and of course party as well... I don't like to be randomly attacked by a much higher level player that is having a bad day... Or is a demented simpleton... Or just is a rotten evil bastard... Nope, I would rather a formal challenge that pops up on screen. And, maybe take it a step further... You can only challenge someone that is NOT in a battle with something... Another person or mob or whatnot. I don't believe we should limit PvP to a certain area... I mean, throw an arena in there for people that want their name on a board. This shows who has earned that spot up there... A Ranking system. But, you don't HAVE to go there to PvP... Also, maybe a feature where you can record your battles and people can go to the arena like a theater and watch how you accomplished it. Like a lower level taking out someone 10 or more levels... Or has more skills than them... That would be fun to see. We also need a PvP text/chat channel... That allows people to issue challenges... And to be invited to the spectacle!
(10.) I refuse to pay for any online game. Why should I pay the electric bill, the cable bill, have purchased a expensive PC, then (maybe) purchased the game from a store... Now you want me to pay you $15 a month?! You are out of your damn mind - period! Get rid of paying for games per month. That is just stupid. You can have advertising that is subtle in there. Whether it is within the games context or not...
(11.) If you are going to have a Item Mall/Cash Shop... Build a damn mall in the game! A place where we can go and look at the items. Try them on... (Asda Story has something similar. If you click on an item to buy in the npc shop, it 'equips' to you and you can see what it looks like. But this requires certain positioning of your char for full effect.) If we are going to pay in game currency or real world money for an item... I want to be able to SEE it first! Number one rule of business, 'Never buy something sight unseen!'. If it is a ride/mount... I want to be able to take it for a test drive in the mall's built in little track/race track. If it is a mount that I can use to fly... I want to ride on the damn thing for 20 minutes until I am good at it... Even car dealerships allow you to test drive their vehicle before you buy it! C'mon people, think about it!
(12.) 'Bosses' or whatever you wish to call them these days. Make them Epic Titans in size... RF Online has some massive ones... But I want bosses the size of the ones in Shadow Of The Colossus! And yes, it would not only take a party to kill it... but MANY MANY parties! And Exp goes to EVERYONE who attacked it, as long as they were in a party. It doesn't go to the party that killed the thing. Everyone gets it. And on top of that... Legendary loot that bosses are known to drop... Well, how about a random system that gives all attackers something instantly in their inventory? Instead of ninja-looters or having things drop... People would go into a boss fight with a nearly empty inventory, ready to receive a goody. And EVERYONE gets something! Although some people would get a more valuable or rare item, everyone gets at least something. And not crap either, not a potion or something. A cool leveled up weapon or something, a ton of money... But some lucky people in the randomly selected party would get not only the rewards everyone else got... But a bonus on top of it, something REALLY worth killing a boss for. Like a Flying Mount or a potion/pill that gives invincibility for 24 hours.
(13.) This leads me to "Timed Items". That 24 hours would be GAMEPLAY time, when you are logged in. Not when you are at work or asleep. That is just wrong... Stop that!
(14.) Stalls/Shops/Kiosk Screw them all! I mean it. Remove this from games. The amount of lag I get in the Malaysian Perfect World Oracle Sever at ADC... I literally can not move 10 feet in 5 minutes! RF Online has a nice 'auction house' system. It isn't really an auction at all. People put up an item, and the price they want for it... And you either buy it or you don't. I do NOT like the fact that the auction takes a percentage of your price away as comission. And this money goes to like the top guild/guild leader... Or whatever happens to it. Stop robbing us for using a service that should be free! If anything, have a salesman's license you can purchase for something... And this allows you to sell on it for free... For like 6 months... Then you must buy a new one. Kinda like some car insurance. Whether or not you make this a 'cash shop' item or not is up to you.
(15.) Cash Shop items... If you want our money for something, that is fine. But much like Perfect World or Rohan... Give us the option to EARN the 'cash shop currency' with in game currency and hard work/play/fun. Don't just reward the rich people out there... Or people that spend money like water, just cause they have no sense. I understand you worked hard for that money, either by yourself in a actual job... Or as a little kid begging his parents... (or mowing lawns or chores.) But you shouldn't be able to just throw TONS at the game... There should be a limit to how much you can purchase off the item shop in a month or something. Preferably in a week. Some people have no sense in when to stop shopping lol. So cap it at like $50 a month or better yet, every OTHER month! And you'll have to wait until next time...
(16.) Losing Exp Or Items when you die. This is the most unforgivable thing you can ever do to a person... Make them have to replay 'levels' or regain the same exp they already earned... Remove this 'feature' before something really bad happens... Like you stop having ANY players at all.
Really, I could go on and on... But I already posted we need a Gamers Forum/Site built that we can go and create our own game... And then someone make that damn thing. We shouldn't all be required to instantly go to college or something to learn how to program and draw and such... Just so we can make our dream game... That would take YEARS. Meanwhile, the rest of us suffer with good ideas that won't get made for years to come... I understand someone has to do the learning and such... But like actors don't write the scripts... They just memorize and recite... Gamers should create the game worlds in TEXT... Then others can go make the game. Btw, view my other posts to see some really good incites on this and other topics. *Shameless plug for my work and effort.*
In conclusion... INCLUDE - the Gamer in everything. Don't keep people in the dark. Don't keep secrets that you reveal at a convention. It isn't like the vast majority of your target market is going to have enough money to take an air plane to your show and see stuff there. Plus the money for hotels, and food and all that is included with a trip. That is just wrong. You need to create a web site... Get some promotion from a tv ad or something... And word of mouth will spread like wild fire. Then the gamers can suggest stuff to put in or take out of your game. Have everything you are going to put in the game, all your ideas and features... All of it typed up and maybe with sketches... That way, within the context of the game genre you are making... We gamers can come in and say, this is good - do this. Or this is crap, take that out immediately and slap the guy/girl who thought of it!
END
FOX