Skills and Abilities

TdogSkal · July 2008

So we all know that CoS will not have classes but a skill system.

We know that CoS will have five Leagues of magic and that a player can use any of the thirty Cadres, which are basically a pre-made study curriculum that, if followed, will help the player become a certain style of character. This is as close to a class system as the game offers. You could say CoS has 30 classes but a player does not have to follow the Cadres at all and just custom build there charater.

And we all know that CoS and Jatar like to hear from Potential players.

So lets use this thread to post idea's and debate those Idea's for skills, spells and Abilities.

Lets Assume that all the standard skills are in place. IE 1 handed slash, 1 handed blunt, ect.

(I will try to keep this post updated with the list)

List

TdogSkal · July 2008

Duel Wield - allows Player to use a weapon in each hand

Lifesteal direct damage - takes life from target and heals caster

Lifesteal damage over time - takes life over a short period of time and heals caster

Snare - slows target movement speed

mike470 · July 2008

Hmm...

Light sKill: shines light from the player who used the spell for 15 minutes (simpler than carrying a torch).

Protect Minimum: defence +10% for 20 minutes

Protect Medium: defence =20% for 20 minutes

Protect Maximium: defence +30% for 20 minutes

Earth's Grip: MaK es target unable to move for 60 seconds (attacK s may weaK en this spell.)

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Also, by abilities, do you mean things lie lumberjacing and herblose? I would love to see herblore in the game.

Jatar · July 2008

Mike, we do plan on having a light Ability, but it's a little different than you are thinking. You can 'throw' light. Example: there is a dark hallway ahead, you can send light down the hallway, lighting it briefly to see what is hiding in the shadows. Or, send up a 'flare' into the night sky to light a battlefield.

The thing is, we don't want to eliminate the use of torches in the game. Your character holds a torch, and the light is very realistic. If you are attacked while holding a torch you will have to decide what to do. Hit the monster with the torch? Toss it to the ground so you can pull a weapon (which will cause the light of the torch to come from the ground, making for weird shadows and less light). Anyway, yes to a Light Ability, but not to replace torches, they are too much fun.

mike470 · July 2008

Originally posted by Jatar

Mike, we do plan on having a light Ability, but it's a little different than you are thinking. You can 'throw' light. Example: there is a dark hallway ahead, you can send light down the hallway, lighting it briefly to see what is hiding in the shadows. Or, send up a 'flare' into the night sky to light a battlefield.
The thing is, we don't want to eliminate the use of torches in the game. Your character holds a torch, and the light is very realistic. If you are attacked while holding a torch you will have to decide what to do. Hit the monster with the torch? Toss it to the ground so you can pull a weapon (which will cause the light of the torch to come from the ground, making for weird shadows and less light). Anyway, yes to a Light Ability, but not to replace torches, they are too much fun.

Sounds neat.

Something which really pulls my interest in CoS is the realism. For instance, in several games, the torches aren't even carried. They just show light without my character even holding the torch....just doesn't make much sense to me; since I didn't know my character was a walking lightbulb

I love the idea of holding torches. Just a quick question, will weather effect torches?

Jatar · July 2008

Weather is something we're still developing, so how it affects torches is yet to be decided. However, we are considering (not promising) that heavy rain could put out a torch (but not a lantern) and wind could affect the flame. We'll see. We have many weather related effects under consideration, but at this time they are back burner to getting our primary technology and game play working together.

dafuzzle · July 2008

I don't know if this has been announced yet, but maybe knowing some of those preset "classes" will help with this thread...

As for skills:

<Insert Weapon type> specialization - Increase weapon damage by x%

Heal - Duh

Stealth - Make character invisible and undetectable for 60 seconds, deactivated when certain actions are done

Sprint - Increase movement speed by x%

Rage - Increase Weapon damage by x% and health by x% for given amount of time

Mana Tap - Trade off health for mana

Health Tap - Trade off Mana for Health (kinda like Heal i suppose, but w/e)

Lightning, Fire, Ice, Wind, etc... bolt - shots x number of bolts at a target

Curse - Deal x damage over x amount of time

Area Heal - Heal all your ally's in a given amount of area

Just some ideas I have, but I'm sure MMO Magic knows what they're doing with the skill system and has there ideas down. Just listing skills would be to hard because we don't know much about the combat system and what it's all about so making skills up would be pretty hard.

Dakirn · July 2008

Originally posted by dafuzzle

Just some ideas I have, but I'm sure MMO Magic knows what they're doing with the skill system and has there ideas down. Just listing skills would be to hard because we don't know much about the combat system and what it's all about so making skills up would be pretty hard.

My suggestion would be to think outside the box. Try to think of something that you'd like to see in a game that maybe you haven't seen before or really liked from another game.

There are no bad ideas, even bad ideas can spawn great ideas. Mundane things like "add X damage" or "dual wield" are probably things that have already been thought of... it's the ideas that you may not normally see that Jatar is probably interested in.

Remember that not every ability has to be a combat ability or an ability that just damages or just heals. Abilities that just buff you or your group are also useful and having something unique can really add flavor to someone's skill lineup.

demonic87 · August 2008

I would like to see some sort of Necromancery, kind of like the ability to summon minions, have diseases or "plague" spells which do damage and debuffs plus some of the spells actually effecting you partially, like taking blood for summoning.

mike470 · August 2008

Originally posted by demonic87

I would like to see some sort of Necromancery, kind of like the ability to summon minions, have diseases or "plague" spells which do damage and debuffs plus some of the spells actually effecting you partially, like taking blood for summoning.

Yeah, I would like to see that as well. I love the idea of summoning especially, but it should be a challenge.

For instance, if a player wants to summon a dragon, they must complete a quest that involves them getting different pieces of a dragon (one tail, a pint of blood, and a dragon's eye). And for each one, they have to travel through some twisted adventure to achieve them.

noobzor · August 2008

what i want to know is if spells and abilities could hit multiple things at once. i just think that this would be awsome.

Jatar · August 2008

Originally posted by noobzor

what i want to know is if spells and abilities could hit multiple things at once. i just think that this would be awsome.

First off, you must have lots of opponents at once in order to hit several at once, we are trying to give you battles with lots of opponents some of the tiime. And yes, there will be area of affect type attacks, as well as multi-strike capabilities for certain abilities.

This is, of course, not earth shaking, many if not most MMOs offer the ability to attack multiple opponents. I just want to assure you that this basic need is also met in CoS.

We are going a little further in this area with something we call 'Uber' abilities, which are truely 'earth shaking' in their power to do mass destruction (and other things). However, other than teasing you by mentioning them, I can't tell you more at this time. Some things must be saved for later

Isane · August 2008

What about every skill having an equal and opposite effect, so that in strength there is a weakness...

generic utility skills would not fall under this effect though, so mainly combat related skill lines.

mike470 · August 2008

Originally posted by Isane

What about every skill having an equal and opposite effect, so that in strength there is a weakness...
generic utility skills would not fall under this effect though, so mainly combat related skill lines.

Hmm, interesting idea.

It could lead in the 'timing' of the skill and how long it takes to happen. For instance, if I were to use an "uber" ability, which is very powerful, then I will be vaulnarable to attacks, as well as it lowering my defense. So you will be dealt higher damage if using a stronger skill (since your guard will be down).

Or, perhaps if I use, for example, "fire ball" I will be more vaulnarable to water within 15 seconds of using the skill. This would actually lead to much more active combat, since for every move your opponent does, you can find a weaknes...Really good idea, Isane.

p.s. Sorry for typos...nto my day.

Isane · August 2008

Originally posted by mike470

Originally posted by Isane

What about every skill having an equal and opposite effect, so that in strength there is a weakness...
generic utility skills would not fall under this effect though, so mainly combat related skill lines.

Hmm, interesting idea.

It could lead in the 'timing' of the skill and how long it takes to happen. For instance, if I were to use an "uber" ability, which is very powerful, then I will be vaulnarable to attacks, as well as it lowering my defense. So you will be dealt higher damage if using a stronger skill (since your guard will be down).

Or, perhaps if I use, for example, "fire ball" I will be more vaulnarable to water within 15 seconds of using the skill. This would actually lead to much more active combat, since for every move your opponent does, you can find a weaknes...Really good idea, Isane.

p.s. Sorry for typos...nto my day.

I wrote a paper about 5 or 6 years ago , which uses a 3D globe . And maps varying type of game elements within these globes using an equal and oppposite approach.

So there was an alignment globe and a skill globe which had for example magic and metal opposite, stealth and ranged opposite. By moving a pointer within the globe you basically had skills that made up a class and all the opposites. There are 5 globes overall but i'm not saying what the other 3 are , but they fall into kingdom/influence and global effects.

Charachters could also specialise to negate certain opposites in about 4 areas so you could for example have a magic wielding tank... and negate the fact that the two don't combine well.

(The idea is if you get some exceptional damage coming in the odds are you know the weakness straight away and if the other player happens to be an opposite to you it has amusing effects)

Isane · August 2008

Originally posted by mike470

Originally posted by Isane

What about every skill having an equal and opposite effect, so that in strength there is a weakness...
generic utility skills would not fall under this effect though, so mainly combat related skill lines.

Hmm, interesting idea.

It could lead in the 'timing' of the skill and how long it takes to happen. For instance, if I were to use an "uber" ability, which is very powerful, then I will be vaulnarable to attacks, as well as it lowering my defense. So you will be dealt higher damage if using a stronger skill (since your guard will be down).

Or, perhaps if I use, for example, "fire ball" I will be more vaulnarable to water within 15 seconds of using the skill. This would actually lead to much more active combat, since for every move your opponent does, you can find a weaknes...Really good idea, Isane.

p.s. Sorry for typos...nto my day.

Mike this may make more sense but this is a summary of thoughts that may make more sense, used for initial write up.

	... All items degrading over time with a durability that eventually mean the item will need to be replaced. Rare/legendary items repairable at great cost. Large number of lootable items and relevant treasure tables Skill based leveling system with large scope for the ammount of permanent charachter improvements on leveling. Which results in extended longevity for players who want a fun endurting gaming experience. And for the power levelers a weakened shell of a charachter that will find it difficult to operate at high levels. Equal and opposite alignment system for skill abilities which lends itself to generating what could be deemed a "class" e.g. warrrior weapon skill (+50 combat hit) <==> (-40 Spell Success -10 mana) Item abilies (to counter class skills) e.g. Sword of the Mage (Conjure Stabalise +10 Mana +40 Spell Success a combination of 4& 5 results in no need for Class balancing players balance themselves skill abilities/ Item abilities and others (I can think of at least 4 or 5 other categories here) All abilities degrade to 50% of maximum potential over a period of time this will mean that a charachters abilities are representative of the playstyle(these only degrade when in game... (These can be easily increased to 75% in a mater of half hour and degrade in sync witrh this (Over 75% they increase slowly buy only degrade 3% oiver 24 hour period) (Only 10 skills can be mainained over 75%) Alignment abilities: Action based mental state Good/Evil awarded by powers (Godlike) Faction/Reputation abilities: Regional/Continental/Cities gained through service in the form of Insignia/medals This is an outline for a system of equal and opposites based around 8 Classes (as per a compass)/ this generates unlimited flexibility in charachter creation when leveling you get the opportunity to move base abilities towards the 75% mark) ,levels are gained over time which give attr4ibute bonuses which will allow for baseline equal and oppositess to be less negative and allow for more multi-classing e.g. over time pump points into baseline warrior sphere to allow Warrior/Mage char to use weapons for example) ,skill points can be retrained at great cost to yet again allow flexibility. This will generate longevity, a great variety of items that can counter primary abilities to lead towards playable opposite abilities. Item positives and negatives will stop use of overpowered items as low lev chars abilitiesll will be in the negatives when an attempt to use All abilities % use will be based on the player level so all skills will be recalculated as you levele and these will then have to be worked back to 50% for new abilities to be made available Lots of other ideas... but thats for starters generally around item flexibility rewards for not power leveling and skill based class system based on ability categories. (Please be aware that the term leveling is being used as a reference to power, not relative to leveling in the traditional sense, more developed variation of these starter thoughts involves player stats , which act as base modifiers around skills.
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mike470 · August 2008

Interesting read Isane, my head hurts now.

One thing I realized you say is that magic won't go with tanking (just an example). IMO I don't really like that idea, because it takes away from the freedom of becoming whatever you want. Players shouldn't not pick an ability because they want to be a tank. All abilities should be able to be done by everyone (remember, Isane, there are no classes in CoS).

dafuzzle · August 2008

The problem with that Isane is that it makes it class based in a way since you limit skills based on what you pick, so I don't see it working since CoS is purely a skill based game.

Isane · August 2008

Originally posted by dafuzzle

The problem with that Isane is that it makes it class based in a way since you limit skills based on what you pick, so I don't see it working since CoS is purely a skill based game.

No different from a soft cap on skills, and that system above is purely skills.

Isane · August 2008

Originally posted by mike470

Interesting read Isane, my head hurts now.
One thing I realized you say is that magic won't go with tanking (just an example). IMO I don't really like that idea, because it takes away from the freedom of becoming whatever you want. Players shouldn't not pick an ability because they want to be a tank. All abilities should be able to be done by everyone (remember, Isane, there are no classes in CoS).

I should be a little clearer the abilities are also skills, oh it is hard i may rewrite this with no reference to anything but skills. When i refer to skills it's an analogy a mix of skills create ' what would be perceived as a traditional class', certain sets of skills will not work as well with others.

And the abilities are a type of skill, they are all learnt through use or a trainer, it is just that there will always have to be different classes of skkills, passive/ combat / trade ... etc etc I just refer to combat related as an ability.

Magic will go with tanking it is just that certain combinations are very powerful, and traditionally don't mix. What the system above develops is skill based but with some long term development. oh well never mind, i just spent some time ages ago looking at a framework that would be skill based lend itself towards a very flexible item system and also provide some longevity. its also traditional fantasy... so elements that are really opposites have to be developed.

Skill based sytems should allow charachters to develop base on actions but if they allow everyone to everything you will have a ig problem there wont be a game.

(Anyway it was only a few suggestions, and I am a true believer of letting developers develop and I will play the game so whatever comes out I will try it.)

Pellagren · August 2008

Hello everyone. I have been eyeing this game for a bit now and have finally decided that I like the ideas and approach that the developers are taking with this game enough to become more involved on these forums. It's good to be here!

I am a big fan of a skills based system. The idea of a character becoming all-around more powerful just by grinding and repeat killing hundreds of mobs to gain a level, which then in turn advances all of his combat/fighting abilities, is long since played out in this genre. We need a new paradigm, and I think we can find it with this game.

One idea that I would like to throw out is to consider skills that are not related to comabt at all. You could have skill trees that are based on how quickly/efficiently you can advance other skills once acquired. If you were to consider the different basic archetypes then you could have a few "learning" skills that would help to advance future skills within that specific tree. They would take time and effort to obtain, but could increase the players efficiency with moving forward along the skills.

There has also been talk on these forums about players needing to interact with spies/diplomats/thiefs and anyone else where their story leads them in order to finish a quest. I think it would be wise to have skills that help in how you can negotiate these quests. For instance, you could have skills that would allow the player to better find the spies/thiefs, and skills to be a better diplomat to loosen the tongues, and skills that would allow more influence upon the weaker minded to do your bidding.

These are just a few specific ideas, but the principle is to allow players that want to invest time in their characters for the long term perspective to acquire skills which would modify the way in which they can ontain/perform/complete quests. You don't only need skills that allow yo uto do slightly more damage with a specific weapon or spell.

Isane · August 2008

Originally posted by Pellagren

Hello everyone. I have been eyeing this game for a bit now and have finally decided that I like the ideas and approach that the developers are taking with this game enough to become more involved on these forums. It's good to be here!
I am a big fan of a skills based system. The idea of a character becoming all-around more powerful just by grinding and repeat killing hundreds of mobs to gain a level, which then in turn advances all of his combat/fighting abilities, is long since played out in this genre. We need a new paradigm, and I think we can find it with this game.
One idea that I would like to throw out is to consider skills that are not related to comabt at all. You could have skill trees that are based on how quickly/efficiently you can advance other skills once acquired. If you were to consider the different basic archetypes then you could have a few "learning" skills that would help to advance future skills within that specific tree. They would take time and effort to obtain, but could increase the players efficiency with moving forward along the skills.
There has also been talk on these forums about players needing to interact with spies/diplomats/thiefs and anyone else where their story leads them in order to finish a quest. I think it would be wise to have skills that help in how you can negotiate these quests. For instance, you could have skills that would allow the player to better find the spies/thiefs, and skills to be a better diplomat to loosen the tongues, and skills that would allow more influence upon the weaker minded to do your bidding.
These are just a few specific ideas, but the principle is to allow players that want to invest time in their characters for the long term perspective to acquire skills which would modify the way in which they can ontain/perform/complete quests. You don't only need skills that allow yo uto do slightly more damage with a specific weapon or spell.

The problem with the longevity is a big one if peopel don't progress after they have hit skill caps, (not that i think they have them here). Then the longevity and need for a large world is pointless, whichever way you look at it there will be a grind, if there isn't one then tbh it isn't a MMO.

This game from what i read has an ending to the storyline anyway.

mike470 · August 2008

Originally posted by Pellagren

One idea that I would like to throw out is to consider skills that are not related to comabt at all. You could have skill trees that are based on how quickly/efficiently you can advance other skills once acquired. If you were to consider the different basic archetypes then you could have a few "learning" skills that would help to advance future skills within that specific tree. They would take time and effort to obtain, but could increase the players efficiency with moving forward along the skills.

I agree 100%. I love the idea of having different skill aside from combat to train. Skills such as firemaking, woodcutting, herblore, etc....Skills like those are something I would love to CoS.

I love how Wurm Online handled skills like that, because it made you pay attention and less-grindy. The problem with making skills like that is that they can become a grind quickly, so it is important that the skills involve players to pay attention to what they're doing, and to have them do different things for a certain skill.

Jatar · August 2008

You will be happy to know that the game not only has non-combat abilities, but actually is about 50% for each. We're on the third of forth major revamp of the Abilities system (each one refines it more). Right now we're looking to improve the non-combat Abilities area, so this particular discussion could be useful.

Feel free to wax on about your ideas in this area. We'll see if there are any we haven't already discussed in our design meetings.

As for 'caps' on your abilities, there aren't any actual caps, though there are practical caps. In other words, I can keep studying and practicing an Abilitiy and getting better at it over time, but the more I study and pracitice the slower the gains become. At some point you have to decide if your time and energy is better spent learning a new Ability rather than improving one that you have already honed to a high level... yet, if you want to keep improving it... feel free.

Also, there is no actual mechanism keeping anyone from learning any Ability. However, there are again, practical limitations. To get or improve an Ability by study, you must belong to the correct League. You must pay an entry fee to get into a League. You must pay dues while in that League. Entry fees and dues go up severely for each additional League you belong to at the same time. Entry fees and dues go up as your character advances.

I mention all this to note that belonging to all five Leagues and improving Abilities in all five leagues at one time is rather expensive, so expensive that most players will choose one, or at most, two Leagues to belong to at any one time. Switching back and forth makes you keep paying the entry fees, so again, you are unlikely to do that too often. In addition there are other incentives to keep you specializing in one League rather than becoming true 'mud'. Bonus Abilities for example, which we call Uber Abilities, must be earned within a League. All this is (and more) is to make it so that players don't all end up the same. Players will create unique and custom clesses, but the system encourages people to have various specializations. That's about as much of this as I should be talking about at this time.

Isane · August 2008

Originally posted by Jatar

You will be happy to know that the game not only has non-combat abilities, but actually is about 50% for each. We're on the third of forth major revamp of the Abilities system (each one refines it more). Right now we're looking to improve the non-combat Abilities area, so this particular discussion could be useful.
Feel free to wax on about your ideas in this area. We'll see if there are any we haven't already discussed in our design meetings.
As for 'caps' on your abilities, there aren't any actual caps, though there are practical caps. In other words, I can keep studying and practicing an Abilitiy and getting better at it over time, but the more I study and pracitice the slower the gains become. At some point you have to decide if your time and energy is better spent learning a new Ability rather than improving one that you have already honed to a high level... yet, if you want to keep improving it... feel free.
Also, there is no actual mechanism keeping anyone from learning any Ability. However, there are again, practical limitations. To get or improve an Ability by study, you must belong to the correct League. You must pay an entry fee to get into a League. You must pay dues while in that League. Entry fees and dues go up severely for each additional League you belong to at the same time. Entry fees and dues go up as your character advances.
I mention all this to note that belonging to all five Leagues and improving Abilities in all five leagues at one time is rather expensive, so expensive that most players will choose one, or at most, two Leagues to belong to at any one time. Switching back and forth makes you keep paying the entry fees, so again, you are unlikely to do that too often. In addition there are other incentives to keep you specializing in one League rather than becoming true 'mud'. Bonus Abilities for example, which we call Uber Abilities, must be earned within a League. All this is (and more) is to make it so that players don't all end up the same. Players will create unique and custom clesses, but the system encourages people to have various specializations. That's about as much of this as I should be talking about at this time.

Once a bonus ability has been gained if you swap leagues due to expense will you loose it ?

Pellagren · August 2008

That is great to hear, Jatar, that you have already planned half of the available skills in non-combat related areas.

I wonder if you have considered using a system like Eve online whereby you can gain a skill over a set amount of time which is passed in real time, whether or not you are online? I always thought that was a great idea they implemented. If it could be mixed with a more quest based approach like you are planning then it could bring out some wonderful strategic options for players to individualize their characters.

Is crafting ability going to be a skill based learning method as well? I think it would be cool to make a player quest out in the world for the knowledge to make very specific items and to mater them, not to just sit at a crafting station and repeatedly "grinds" out thousands of copies to get the next tier.

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Skills and Abilities

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