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Does Eve Help or Hurt Sandbox MMOs?
Abrahmm
Member Posts: 2,448
This kind of jumped into my head today and I'm wondering what you all think.
Eve is a niche game inside of a niche. Eve is a sci-fi sandbox game, but also has many unique features that may turn many people off. These features may turn off even those that really like sandbox, sci-fi, or both sandbox and sci-fi games. I personally love Sci-fi and am looking for a sandbox game, but have tried many times and just couldn't get into it. For me personally, the timed skill training, and point 'n click flying is what turned me off. The fact that so many people that would normally love this style and theme don't or can't get into the game(As I have seen many people just like me) makes this game a niche inside of the sandbox niche.
Game companies today are going for the big bucks. WoW has completely changed the definition of success in the MMO industry. When before, 200k subscriptions was a respectable amount, it is now seen by many as a failure because it isn't even close to what WoW has pulled in (ala SOE).
Now last I heard, Eve had roughly 250K subscribers. I think this is an awesome success for what it is. But what do you think other gaming companies see?
I can see stupid companies looking at the 250k subscriptions and thinking "There the only game in that niche and can only pull in 250k subscriptions, making sandbox games is a waste of time and money."
I can also see smart companies thinking "Hey, they are an extremely niche game that doesn't even appeal to a lot of the people in that niche, and they have pulled in 250k subscribers. I think there is a large untapped market here that we could nail down with a solid game."
So my question is, do you think Eve is helping or hurting sandboxes? Do you think most companies look at Eve as covering the niche completely, or do you think companies can see the untapped market and may be more inclined to produce more sandboxes?
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Comments
I don't like calling Eve Online a sandbox game. It is, but it's kind of misleading as most people thinking of sandbox as old SWG or UO.
Eve Online is a sandbox, but it is more of a single unit RTS MMO that also happens to be a sandbox. In the event that you can politically sway enough people and become a known Fleet Commander, you can even think of this as a complete RTS MMO. Although, most people will never experience that style of play in Eve as just like in real life, the few lead the many.
EDIT: Pressed Submit too quick.
I don't think that Eve's numbers are that high because it is a sandbox game. Instead, I think they are at the level they are at, because it is a slower paced strategy game that doesn't need to absorb all of your time. In fact, Eve Online has always been a great 2nd MMO and time killer when I get bored of the MMO that I am currently playing at the time.
I think that the main thing EVE shows, is that you can carve yourself a niche if you do something original. This is the most important thing that games like this has to teach us. The problem today is that most games are of the scale 800 million dollars, and aiming for 2-5 million subscribers. The stakes are just too high to do something that original, unless you find an investor who's not that fond of having money, or who likes to gamble. There are afew games popping up these days with a bit smaller funding, the problem is that instead of cutting the production and featureset, they cut in marketing, and even if they are doing something original, no one will ever know about it.
Developers may see what you're talking about, but investors won't.
As for myself, I was prepared to give Eve a longer shot, but the corporate atmosphere, and the focus on predatory PvP is just no fun for me (too much like real life business). What strikes me as unimaginative about the game is the way money is so important. What's interesting about the best sci-fi is the way different civilizations make use of different strengths, resources and innate abilities. While it has a sci-fi shell, Eve seems to me to replicate human (in fact mostly western corporate) values across mostly undifferentiated factions.
I recognize it is truly fun for a dedicated player base, and I acknowledge the accomplishment of the sustained persistent single-server. I just don't think we've seen the truly imaginative sandbox game that really works well yet. I know many will cite early SWG, and it had its strong points... but it also had some significant problems, so I still say the great, non-FPS sci-fi mmorpg is in the future. It ain't gonna be STO, and it ain't gonna be Stargate, and it ain't gonna be Jumpgate Evolution. It may be a while. and Eve will probably still be around serving the same group who love it just the way it is, and more power to them.
If UO(pre-AoS) and SWG(Original) were not the grounds for people to look at the sandbox MMo then I don't know what is. While EVE is in its own right a sandbox it just doesn't live up to either of those 2 other games in my eyes.
edit: also space is a very niche market atm.
What a smart developer will realize is that CCP was a small time developer with a small staff (and still small) that was able to survive off of 5,000 subscriptions at launch. They had virtually no marketing or anything. I never even heard of EVE til I came to mmorpg.com
CCP has shown a small developer can jump into this industry and compete. EVE has smacked down MMOs like Vanguard, EQ2, LOTRO, etc
You realize EVE has Realtime Collision detection? Everyone on 1 server? No instances?
EVE/CCP has turned the industry on its heads. Now there are MMO developers out there that play EVE and they are learning things from it. They are learning how to make a real PVP MMO that has MEANING and Impact. They are learning how to make a real economy complete with buy/sell orders.
It has helped ursher new MMOs such as Earthrise, Mortal, WELL Online (already in alpha in russia), etc.
Their contribution was huge. If EVE is not a sandbox then I repeat- I DONT WANT A SANDBOX. I want a fresh, innovative game and that is all that counts. Give me something original please; more games like EVE
How old are you? Did you ever play any of the old space-based BBS games?
I'm pretty old Kurush but I missed out on Trade Wars. Instead of playing BBS I played console games
However to redeem myself just a little I played a little Elite at a friend's house and Starport in which I'm told was influenced heavily by Trade Wars
I always love reading your responses and input on thing Vajuras... We see eye to eye on most subjects
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Um it helps a lot. If a game with as many annoying features as EvE can draw in 250K subs and keep growing. Lets see: Avatar Detachment, bad tutorial system(this is where you lose people), Avatar Detachment, reletivly bad leveling up system, bad skill system that tosses out the advantages of being skill based(what is it like 7 tiers for some skills now, and over dozen passive static skills that have no requirement to use, buffs that just sit there with no requirement are never good), and a bit more avatar detachment to boot.
Other developers are going to want to go me wantsies.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Thanks Abrahmm. Paul, yeah it has a few annoying things but almost every feature I hate I also love.
Time based training is love / hate for me. I can't stand waiting on the timer but it has taught me patience and it helps make our builds unique. Without the time based training economy might go belly up now everyone can easily make Titans. And now everyone can fly a Titan too. Oh and HACs? They would've been at every encounter I reckon.
The game would burn hard. I'm no fan of time based training. Might not ever play another that has it. But I would never drop it from EVE.
You say you want to be detached from your avatar well then don't worry about what level you are or what skill you have. Don't compare yourself to others and just have fun like we do
Now if you hate being a spaceship that is one thing, but yeah hating the skill system. Well guess that makes sense but oddly it makes the game work. This game would blow if I had to kill rats all day to skill-up. Skill-based system would be disaster here
Well, if you know the name Trade Wars, you know what I'm saying. EvE has some original concepts. But I'd say it's no more original than any established fantasy game. Pretty much everything we have out there now is just +graphics to concepts established back in the BBS or mu* days.
You look at WoW and its raid grind. Exact same shit even in the advanced diku derivatives, where you had to get a specific team loaded out with buffs to go down a boss just in the hopes of a random drop you want popping. Whole guilds were founded just to facilitate this high-end running, and they even had schedules. Sound familiar? Only difference is that they're called "raids" nowadays instead of "runs".
In concept, EvE is so similar to Trade Wars that it would boggle the mind of the people who actually think CCP built it from the ground up. EvE is actually behind in some ways because some features in TW would be impossible to implement in EvE. The only real revolutionary thing about EvE is how they scaled it up. One big world with everybody playing together and participating in a single economy. They didn't even do that perfectly. I'm not too impressed by what happens when a lot of people gather to fight in one area.
To be honest, aside from cool and interesting combat systems, I can't really think of anything I've seen in a MMORPG that I haven't seen before in a text-based game. It kinda shows you that it's not really creativity that's slowing us down. Much smaller teams than what we have now came out with much higher-minded concepts than what's now available. I think it's logistics.
As far as the OP's point, I'd say no. EvE really isn't friendly to newbies, but it couldn't be without changing the game. Same with a lot of other games. Sandbox = niche. Most people who think they want a sandbox can't handle the lack of PvE content and story direction that goes along with that.
That is absolutely correct. But CCP openly admits that they took large parts of Elite into their game, and i can't blame them.
Eve was inspirated by those old games. Actually, i feel it's a living relic of the old times. A fossil, even.
EVE and CCP are both great for the gaming industry.
EVE is a sandbox, not in the traditional sense, and it is certainly targeting the PvP crowd, but it shows that a well-developed game can compete with the major developers.
One can only think what kind of game SWG (Pre-CU) would have been had it been given another year of development time. A year is a long time, 12 months without subscriptions. But if you launch early and peak at 300,000 players, or you wait a year and eventually peak out at 750,000 players, most people would certainly rather wait the year and do it right.
First and foremost to a successful game is building a game that can be built upon. CCP did this so well with EVE. Launched it almost bonedry of content but built a great game on top of it. The systems were in place to develop a great game.
Games like AoC and Vanguard are so fundamentally flawed that they seemingly can't get THAT much better.
Eve's done pretty well, id say its a good thing
Sandbox mmo's are hard for some people to jump into, especially eve's case which has quite a learning curve.
That is absolutely correct. But CCP openly admits that they took large parts of Elite into their game, and i can't blame them.
Eve was inspirated by those old games. Actually, i feel it's a living relic of the old times. A fossil, even.
I'd say no. EvE is just the only successful translation, in my opinion.
People think fantasy is bullshit because they haven't seen the promise of real fantasy games. Think about the really good mu*'s which have a million areas, each with their unique story and mysteries to unravel. One of the amazing things was that development of these areas was decentralized. Each area was essentially a story told by a different person. Yeah, some designers made tons, but most modern mu*'s are derivatives of derivatives of derivatives of common codebases, so they can use old areas from long-dead games, and you end up seeing a lot of variety.
Yeah, Trade Wars was great in terms of interesting PvP, trade, expansion, etc. But the old fantasy games, at least on your first playthrough, were really about exploration, atmosphere, and mystery, and they had unmatched variety on that front.
If they could actually replicate that in a fantasy game, then they'd have a PvE experience worth playing on a MMORPG. That's the success of EvE. They replicated the essence of the old games while bringing in new technology. There's no hint of the old soul in a game like EQ2 or WoW. Areas are a collection of microlocations used for quests, each with a tiny, inconsequential story told only to you in two paragraphs in the quest completion window. Look, there's a cave with a named mob in it. It's aggro. A quest will have me kill him. Yay.
LotRO tried, at least. They made a damn good try of it, and they came closer than anybody else. Not quite there, though, in my opinion. Maybe Bioware's game will do it. From what I've seen from Dragon Age, they've still got the touch in creating living, immersive worlds.