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Fleshing out penalties
Kindelnol
Member Posts: 62
Today, most players do not want much of a penalty for anything they might do.
Psychologically speaking, punishment and positive reinforcement can actually propel addiction and enjoyment. Take gambling, for instance, where the majority of the time people lose, yet, they persist, hoping for the jackpot or that next minimal win.
In MMOGs the ideas that form penalties are conceptualized in Risk vs. Reward.
Should there be any penalties? What is the right mix? What are alternative penalties? Should the player be risking anything at all?
I do not believe that penalties (like the player death penalty) are out-of-date, as some have proclaimed. It seems that the right mix has yet to be found. I understand the issues. If the penalty is too great, it may detour players from playing, finishing a dungeon, risking anything, or simply enjoying the game.
This does not mean penalties should not be added. It simply means that a new approach should be taken. Penalties like major experience, item, stat, or character loss are generally intolerable. Some do not mind some of these types (I can deal with item loss). Others cannot stand any one of them.
So, the main question is: what then should be risked and furthermore be lost?
I mainly speak in terms of death, but this is not the only area that might receive some form of invested risk and potential penalty.
My own idea does not promote any of these intolerable features listed before to the penalty. Upon death, the player returns to his home point, whatever that might be. He loses nothing. He may want to retrieve his remnants though, because by doing so, he “erases” the occurrence of the death. Essentially, the death will no longer register for him.
Perhaps, by surviving longer (by always retrieving your remnants), the player will find that certain things increase. Maybe experience potential will increase. Maybe luck of loot drop will increase. It can even favor PvP as a player can go a period of time, collecting kills, yet not completely dying himself (the question here would be whether or not the number of kills should continue to register even after the deceased retrieves his remnants). In the latter possibility, an obvious concern would be corpse-camping. There are means to stop this, but it may also add a new risk/danger in retrieving the remnants.
I want to hear your ideas. What are the alternatives that might please a wide range of players?
Comments
I think the penalty of wasted time is penalty enough. Many players want to waste time retroactively (like, the last 10 hours you spent grinding rather than the time required to get to your current resting place and get back for a rematch, if any). I have no idea why, because I only care to play games for about 5 hours a week. If I waste an hour of that time just trying out a new area and dying, that is a pretty big penalty. If I also loose 5 hours of work in the process, that encourages boring, ultra-cautious play. And I loose interest and stop playing.
I thought the penalties in early Everquest were acceptable.
If you died, you lost a chunk of experience, and you respawned naked. You would have to then retrieve your body from the location you died completely naked.
On Rallos Zek, only server i'm experienced with, if a player killed you, they could pick one item on your corpse to claim as there own, as long as it was not in your backpack or bound to you.
Without going into to much detail, i'll just say the penalties in early EQ were probably the biggest factor into the immersion you felt when playing. You didn't just run in, and through content aimlessly. That would get you killed, and dieing was a risk not taken lightly.
"The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except genius."
-Oscar Wilde
I don't mind having a death penalty that actually means something. I think it would go a long way in immersing players back into the gameplay. Long gone are the days of feeling the rush when you come out of a fight by the skin of your teeth and have to find a place to rest up and regen while knowing that you could be attacked at any moment and if you die it's one hell of a long walk back and you'll be doing it naked and vulnerable.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
As I mentioned in my post, I am in favor of item loss upon death. Like Illius said, it added an element of danger. One can call these type of moments simple nostalgia, but I would say there is a reason I remembered it in the first place.
I never played EQ, but I think I could take the death penalty it offered. As has been established, those days are gone. Games need to cater to crowds with different tastes.
I understand your problem with death penalties, Mylon. In an effort to moderate my playtime, I restricted myself to only one night of play in one MMOG (I still eventually got addicted to it and quit in order to fight that addiction). This night only consisted of a few hours. One might think that I would not want to waste anymore time than I had to on corpse runs, but I still enjoyed it immensely. My father is another example, he could only play about an hour a day. He did lose equipment. Even today he wishes the current MMOGs offered some sort of penalty/risk to one's actions.
Really, it boils down to the type of person, I suppose. Some people want it to be easier so they do not have to fight the game with such inconveniences. Some people do not want to risk much for their rewards.
That is why I am asking what other options of penalties there might be. It is also why I think loss of something like level or loot should be (unfortunately) avoided.
I don't think games should be easy. For me, it diminishes the rewards and feats I attain into nothing but fleeting goals that feel meaningless after I accomplish them (many times while in the process of accomplishing them). I hate this. People talk about how penalties are a waste of time. I find unimportant "accomplishments" an even greater waste of time.
I don't know, personally I don't find any excitement from high stakes, knowing I could have lost big does not make anything I do meaningful or an accomplishment, losing things when I die however is an annoyance. For excitement I need purpose and atmosphere.
I think it would be better to reward surviving rather than punishing death, people tend to react better toward positive reinforcement rather than negative. If you reward players for fighting and surviving, with buffs, titles, whatever, then it gives them a reason to survive, but if you also make it where players have to maintain their survival to keep their rewards then you have long term incentive to not die. This way players do not lose anything for dieing they just do not gain extra rewards.
Other than that, people generally do not like dieing as it slows their progress.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Penalties annoy me sometimes. Do not get me wrong I am in favor of them, but...
Ex.1
Player 1 is level 20
Player 2 is level 15
Player 1 has better equipment
Player 2 is screwed before the anyone even touched the mouse (Unless he runs away)
Player 2 dies, loses his valuables (pun intended), and loses exp.
I get annoyed when I stand no chance because of my level/equipment and then I get raped by some 1337 kid/adult.
Having an Experience penalty in PvP would be horrendous.
And, as long as you have something you can do to secure your gear, or maybe just choice pieces is important.
"The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except genius."
-Oscar Wilde
Imagine if you were grouped with someone who had some really hard to get survival title, and you screw up and that person dies? Or maybe your vindictive and jealous of their title and intentionally "forget to heal".
Having a reward system like you describe i believe would just lead to portions of your population being alienated. No one would group with X player cause they have no survival rating. It would also encourage soloing since then you don't have to worry about other players effecting your titles.
I'm also not a fan of rewarding people for not playing with fire. Should be a risk to playing with fire, but also a reward if you do it successfully.
"The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except genius."
-Oscar Wilde
Yeah I was just throwing out an alternative to death penalties, its ok but not my style. Though I do think rewards are better than punishments, like you said it gives less incentive to group with non rewarded people.
Funny thing is MMOs seem to be one of few genres that still want to punish players. Singler player games don't really have a punishment persay, except if you forgot to save right before that boss battle, which gives me another idea.
Save points, well not really. More like if you are doing a quest, lets say to to kill two minibosses at the same time, and you kill miniboss one but then die. Instead of getting creadit for the kill you have to do it again because you can only "save" before and after combat, note I don't itterally mean save. In raids this could work in "saving " after fights so you can't kill half the group then die and come back to kill the rest, You have to do that one section over.
Of course this could be really annoying, but then again punishments usually are.
Pretending I were making a game the most punishment for dieing I would add would be a distance penalty, you are knocked unconsious and wake up in a hospital in the nearest town, unless you are rezed that is, it also makes corpse camping much harder, as in impossible, much like the OPs idea. Or maybe give players the option to wait x amount of time till they can revive, if the mobs have left that is, for more of a time penalty. There are many ways to do it, but ultimatly I think death should be an inconvience that distrupts your playing of a fun game, rather than a punishment to cripple.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Penalties don't make sense in a world of ever clone game. Have a good day.
Aside from that bit of sarcasm it adds a lot to a game that focuses on the economy, especially when items get damaged beyond repair.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.