The exp loss is needed in order for folks to respect the game world and to make sinister dungeons....well...sinister.
PVP Death Penalty = item repair bill
Without any kind of a PVP penalty, folks will act like foolhardy idiots and spend all their time zerging instead of thinking about tactics. There needs to be some incentive not to die.
Of course, any death penalty needs to be enough to say "ouch", but not enough to drive folks to delete characters in frustration or cancel accounts.
Whats so great is that those who want a harsher penalty can ALWAYS create one very easily in any MMO. The fact that they never do IN-GAME speaks volumes. You can moan all you want on a forum, but if you don't follow up, you're just a hypocrite. Delete gold, delete gear, step away from the computer for a 1/2 hr. Theres plenty of penalties you can self inflict on yourself. Nothing is stopping you except yourself.
Someone always comes along and spouts this same idiotic suggestion.
I repeat my same response:
I play MMOGs in part to be competitive and I don't fancy competing at a disadvantage. I want a level playing field where all participants are subject to the same game mechanics and game rules. The only things that should favor players is length of time played, amount of time you are willing to play, and playing smart.
Its about as idiotic as expecting any developer to cater to such a tiny fringe hardcore group who enjoys wasting their time. As usual its not about whats best for the game. If a challenge was all you wanted, creating your own death penalty would be fine, but its not about YOUR penalty. Its about pushing that playstyle on everyone else. You don't want an equal playing field because by playing smart, YOU wouldn't incure that penalty as much as all the noobies. You claim its equal but its inherenthly not. You'd play smarter than them. You wouldn't play equal to the dummies. Knowing you can avoid that penalty better than others is what rocks your socks off. Thats whats "cool" about the penalty.
If the penalty and challenge was whats important, you wouldn't care what the penalty for other people is. Whats really important is your ability to feel superior to those who get penalized more than you. Its basic MMO psych 101. You want others to get punished.
You just figured out that the essence of competition is to prove you are better than someone else at a given task? DUH
What do you think the Olympics are all about?
An equal playing field requires the same ruleset and mechanics for all players on the same server.
I don't see any athletes in the Olympics handicapping themselves for a greater challenge.
Originally posted by rafmeister Originally posted by Mylon I need to save these reponses so I can just cut and paste every time this comes up. Death penalties encourage ultra-cautious play, which is boring. If I only play for 5 hours a week, and I loose all of that progress because I died one time, then I don't get to do a whole lot of exciting stuff with my time. Look at FFXI, people sit around in a "camp" and pull mobs into it one by one. It's a very safe way of getting experience and thus prevents people from delevelling while trying to, well, level. But it's ultimately very boring. The fact that I went out on a journey/quest alone and failed in that journey is a pretty big penalty given the time I have available. As a previous poster said, it all boils down to time. Punishing the player with having to grind out more stuff (exp, loot, cash) just further pushes some of the boring parts of the game onto the player more than they are already there.
In EQ1 people who played this way were often referred to as Kunark cyclers. People who would never set foot in a dungeon and only level in the outdoor easy areas. Now there is nothing wrong with that if you don't like taking the risk you don't have to. But those of us who did take the risk of dungeon crawling and challenging ourselves were better geared, more skilled and for the most part better players all around for it. The fun and rewards for taking those risks was what kept me in EQ for all those years. To this day I can name pieces of gear I got because they were not easy to get. Things like the screaming mace, Paw of opalla, Nature walkers scimitar, 7th coldain prayer shawl, etc etc. I can't name one thing I have gotten in any other game because it all drops like candy. A big part of that difficulting was overcomming the death penalty.
I'm mostly referring to the difference in difficulty of fighting a level 50 mob (at level 50) versus fighting a level 52 mob for the faster leveling rate. In some of the games I've played, level 50 people would one-shot level 10 mobs (they got some kind of reward for this) just because it was safe, easy XP. They could have hunted stuff their own level, but then they would risk dying. That's just boring gameplay to me. And as I've pointed out before, I only have so much time to play, so if I play and screw up and loose a whole week's progress, I'm not going to stay long.
In the EQ2 forums lately there has been a lot of debate about the quality of that game. One of the main things people who dislike but have played EQ2 say is that the death penalty is not harsh enough. This is not about eq2 alone but a question for all those who want harsh death penalties and those who seem to think those that do not want them somehow are not true mmo players. There is often a lot of put down placed on those that do not like harsh death penalties. I have been in mmos since the begining UO and have played pretty much all of them. Some with steep penalties and some like WoW with easy ones. What makes a harsh death penalty so fun for so many? I have heard the classic response "It makes the game more exciting." How is that exciting? Also why is it suggested that somehow those that do not like steep penalties either do not get it or are not good gamers? I do not see that connection but I have read it here dozens of times when this discussion comes up. Other then the "it makes the game more exciting" I have yet to hear why those that like harsh penalties enjoy it so much, as they claim.
Harsh is just a word,it depends what you mean by harsh.Kiddie type players consider just dying to be harsh.I think only some one who looks at it rationally and thinks about it for the whole good of the game can be taken seriously.Obviously players who consider death alone to hardcore or drastic would never agree to anything other than instant level 70 after one week with a full set of top of the line gear and 50 million game currency in there bank.These type of players i don't even give a second thought to as they are not there to make a good game they are not gamers at all,i don't know what they are.
On the other hand you get players who think it should be full out war ,6 level 50 should be able to kill one level 30 and rape him for everything he has,again this is just dumb and does nothing to make a good game for all.
You need to look at why you or others are even playing the game?Do you want ANY CHALLENGE at all?would the majority of people out there want to play a sport whereby the other team gets a distinct advantage over the other?of course not.so we need to make a games death penalty challenging yet make it worthwhile for all the players of the game.
Example if you are going to make it where by you lose 25% xp on death,then you better make sure the game offers an equal/fair bonus to not dying.No 25% Xp gain or skill gains would not be fair,but something along the lines of what would be a fair ratio to deaths?If you say the average gamer dies 5% of the time against even matches,then the reward should be balanced against the 25% death penalty.
There is another real simple way to make death penalties extremely fair for all.That is by offering risk vs reward.The game would have to have loot table rewards.So if you are level 10 and the game offers the top loot table for killing anything from 5+ levels above you then it's up to you to decide if the risk is worth the reward.You go for the top end loot table you chance the largest % of death penalty.If you are a wimp and want the low end of the death penalty,then you get what you deserve...the low end of the loot table.This is an extremely fair system where by you get your own choice,and time restraints or any other excuse i have heard about hardcore vs softcore would have ZERO bearing on the benefits or penalties.This would leave it all up to the players to decide.
When PVP is concerned a very similar system should be used.If you want to kill lower level players,then you get minimal rewards like maybe just a % of there gold but no gear and a low % for XP gain,BUT you would also stand to lose the most %xp and loot because you are taking almost no risk..On the other hand if you fight an even matched player or someone above your level then you should get your just reward,higher % of XP gain more loot and % of players gold.This is all just a system that is fair for all and not looking at it in an individual case by case.I mean you have to make a game do something,you will NEVER please all,so a game has to make a stance and deliver what is at least fair for all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
In the EQ2 forums lately there has been a lot of debate about the quality of that game. One of the main things people who dislike but have played EQ2 say is that the death penalty is not harsh enough. This is not about eq2 alone but a question for all those who want harsh death penalties and those who seem to think those that do not want them somehow are not true mmo players. There is often a lot of put down placed on those that do not like harsh death penalties. I have been in mmos since the begining UO and have played pretty much all of them. Some with steep penalties and some like WoW with easy ones. What makes a harsh death penalty so fun for so many? I have heard the classic response "It makes the game more exciting." How is that exciting? Also why is it suggested that somehow those that do not like steep penalties either do not get it or are not good gamers? I do not see that connection but I have read it here dozens of times when this discussion comes up. Other then the "it makes the game more exciting" I have yet to hear why those that like harsh penalties enjoy it so much, as they claim.
but most of the players (i have meet) who wants very harsh death penalties, are the same guys/girls who will brag about how "hardcore" the game is and act like they allmost should have a medal for playing the game.
Harsh death penalty does not make a game more challenging . LOL Actual game mechanics and the strategy required for battle makes for a better challenge. All a harsh death penalty is an illusion of risk, but if you have players that could care less if they died or the in game consequences it has no affect. SOme players could care less, and this will not affect them either way. If they don;t like the consequences and just choose not to play the game when it is no longer fun. See when players play the game with real friends they already have a reason to fight better, not because of anything the game does. This is an illusion of risk for players that have no other reason to fight well, which is artificial and short lived at best. After you PVP so much even if you have perma death it still does not make you care any more either way if you die because you can just go play another game. Therefore I do not see the purpose in it in the first place other than to reduce monthly subs for a game because you have more people that quit over this than enjoy the self punishment. So why would it make sense for any developer to reduce the amount of profit they make off the game in order to please the few who enjoy self punishment?
Whats so great is that those who want a harsher penalty can ALWAYS create one very easily in any MMO. The fact that they never do IN-GAME speaks volumes. You can moan all you want on a forum, but if you don't follow up, you're just a hypocrite. Delete gold, delete gear, step away from the computer for a 1/2 hr. Theres plenty of penalties you can self inflict on yourself. Nothing is stopping you except yourself.
Someone always comes along and spouts this same idiotic suggestion.
I repeat my same response:
I play MMOGs in part to be competitive and I don't fancy competing at a disadvantage. I want a level playing field where all participants are subject to the same game mechanics and game rules. The only things that should favor players is length of time played, amount of time you are willing to play, and playing smart.
Its about as idiotic as expecting any developer to cater to such a tiny fringe hardcore group who enjoys wasting their time. As usual its not about whats best for the game. If a challenge was all you wanted, creating your own death penalty would be fine, but its not about YOUR penalty. Its about pushing that playstyle on everyone else. You don't want an equal playing field because by playing smart, YOU wouldn't incure that penalty as much as all the noobies. You claim its equal but its inherenthly not. You'd play smarter than them. You wouldn't play equal to the dummies. Knowing you can avoid that penalty better than others is what rocks your socks off. Thats whats "cool" about the penalty.
If the penalty and challenge was whats important, you wouldn't care what the penalty for other people is. Whats really important is your ability to feel superior to those who get penalized more than you. Its basic MMO psych 101. You want others to get punished.
What you say doesn't make sense at all. Everyone must be on the same playing field or things won't work. It's like you were playing in a volleyball tournament where Team A accept the risk of being eliminated if they lose the game while Team B simply refuse to be eliminated because it is too harsh for them. It cannot work.
In the EQ2 forums lately there has been a lot of debate about the quality of that game. One of the main things people who dislike but have played EQ2 say is that the death penalty is not harsh enough. This is not about eq2 alone but a question for all those who want harsh death penalties and those who seem to think those that do not want them somehow are not true mmo players. There is often a lot of put down placed on those that do not like harsh death penalties. I have been in mmos since the begining UO and have played pretty much all of them. Some with steep penalties and some like WoW with easy ones. What makes a harsh death penalty so fun for so many? I have heard the classic response "It makes the game more exciting." How is that exciting? Also why is it suggested that somehow those that do not like steep penalties either do not get it or are not good gamers? I do not see that connection but I have read it here dozens of times when this discussion comes up. Other then the "it makes the game more exciting" I have yet to hear why those that like harsh penalties enjoy it so much, as they claim.
Harsh death penalty = challenge = better game
True, true. I think what most folks do not understand is that the "harshness" is a scalable variable. If a penalty is too light, then rewards are not appreciated. If a penalty is too harsh, then players might delete their characters or cancel their accounts in frustration.
Obviously, there is a middle ground. I think early DAOC, from what I remember, or early EQ2 even, had the penalty set about right. UO was too harsh, maybe EQ even, although the latter game was very exciting largely due to the penalty for dying. WOW, well, WOW means nothing; all gear and levels in WOW mean nothing to me, because they were easily won without hardly any risks.
Bottom line: death penalties can be too light or too harsh, and must be appropriately scaled and set to maximize player enjoyment.
Here is a refined equation, I think is accurate:
L = Living, or surviving
D = Dying
X = magnitude; bumping up D by a factor of X will also increase L proportionately
Fun = (x * L) - (x * D) (So, basically "living" minus "dying" equals net "fun")
Exception, if (x * D) (i.e., dying) is above a certain threshold, the game will become intolerable, regardless of (x * L) (i.e. living), so there is some limit. (Maybe a Calculus person could better model this.)
So, enhancing x will enhance the penalty for dying, but also enhance the experience of living (or winning). Since players presumably win more than die, the "Fun" value has got to increase in magnitude as long as the penalty for Dying doesn't get too high.
This is definitely something that can be calibrated based upon player feedback during beta tests.
In game rewards have no affect on my " fun" what I consider fun is the actual mechanics and strategy of pvp combat and could care less about anything the game gives me in game or does to me in game, though death penalty does affect my fun because If my friend dies then I can no longer play with my friend, and I do not pay to play a game to wait for things to happen.. I enjoy playing with real friends and if they can't come right back out and fight when they die, I would rather play a game I can actually play with my friends. Why would I play a game with my friends if my friends can;t actually play it. AT least In games like guild wars I can rez my friends so they can participate as well, otherwise I might as well be playing the game alone., therfore there would be no point in it being an mmo in the first place.
I think we can take from games like WoW that most people are not interested in competeting with others. There may be some hardcore players that are like the atheletes in the olympics who wish a more difficult challenge so that they can show they are the best. Most people seem to just enjoy playing with friends or going solo against whatever PvE mobs they can. Not everyone is driven to be the best.
A harsh death penalty is an important component to making a quality game. Without a harsh death penalty, no one fears dying and losing in combat which results in zerg attack tactics. A harsh death penalty makes players choose their targets carefully in both PVE and PVP and use tactics and strategy and planning which should be required and makes the gameplay more interesting and challenging. A harsh death penalty makes exploring exciting, not to be careless and venture too far into the unknown without a safe line of retreat. You know a game's death penalty is a joke when people kill themselves to port across the zone as I did in WoW.
YOU obviously need a harsh death penalty to restrain you from becoming a reckless zerging fool.
Your problem is you assume everyone is exactly the way you are. That without that harsh death penaltiy, they'll be as reckless and heedless as you are without one.
I don't need a harsh death penalty to motivate me to not do something stupid. I approach all combat with a healthy sense of self preservation, because dying is a PITA in and of itself. At least for me.
Your milage may vary, but it's pretty clear that you insist that you have company in your misery.
If you need such a harsh death penalty to motivate you to make exploration exciting, just commit yourself to reroll your toon every time you die.
I dare you to.
You won't, though. You need an external ruleset to impose discipline on you.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Just because you like to play with friends does not mean you do not want hardcore competition. I want a game that gives me both. I want to be able to play with friends, and I want good game mechanics and hardcore strategy. I do not see that a death penalty has any affect on this simply because the illusion of it being risk does not affect me the same way, now if the risk was real such as I had to pay $20 everytime I died that would be real risk to me, not an illusion. I would be more for a real cash penalty everytime i died vs an in game penalty that way it would actually mean something. The only thing the death penalty means to me is being forced to wait to have fun .. well I don;t accept it and log out and go have fun elsewhere anyhow so the death penalty didn't really punish me anyhow. LOL
Originally posted by Mylon I'm mostly referring to the difference in difficulty of fighting a level 50 mob (at level 50) versus fighting a level 52 mob for the faster leveling rate. In some of the games I've played, level 50 people would one-shot level 10 mobs (they got some kind of reward for this) just because it was safe, easy XP. They could have hunted stuff their own level, but then they would risk dying. That's just boring gameplay to me. And as I've pointed out before, I only have so much time to play, so if I play and screw up and loose a whole week's progress, I'm not going to stay long.
In most games (including FFXI) the level 50 will get *no* XP from killing the level 10, so this is hardly a counter argument.
And I find paradigm of pulling monsters to an existing camp to be anything but boring. To do it well and get a good level of XP earning without deaths in FFXI takes knowledge, judgment and good reactions.
Originally posted by pencilrick True, true. I think what most folks do not understand is that the "harshness" is a scalable variable. If a penalty is too light, then rewards are not appreciated. If a penalty is too harsh, then players might delete their characters or cancel their accounts in frustration. Obviously, there is a middle ground. I think early DAOC, from what I remember, or early EQ2 even, had the penalty set about right. UO was too harsh, maybe EQ even, although the latter game was very exciting largely due to the penalty for dying. WOW, well, WOW means nothing; all gear and levels in WOW mean nothing to me, because they were easily won without hardly any risks. Bottom line: death penalties can be too light or too harsh, and must be appropriately scaled and set to maximize player enjoyment.
Applause. The poster has it exactly right. FFXI is another game that, IMHO, gets the death penalty right. It stings, but it's not devastating. You can just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, say, "Well, I won't do *that* again!" and continue on.
Ultima Online used to have the perfect death penatly. Which is part of why I loved the game. In the old days if you died anywhere anyone could loot you. It was a criminal act to loot a non-criminal body. It took 2 minutes for a body to become open for everyone. If you died in town you had two minutes to run to a healer -> get a ressurection -> and run back to your body. If you died out of town you better hope someone is around to save your body.
Also if you happened to die due to player violence you were likley going to lose everything you carried at the time. Which is what made the pvp better than MMO games today. Loot is an intrigrual part to PVP in my mind which is why I can't play any of the new MMOs. I like the comment that everything is turning into a TEABALL League. Seriously it is like everyone has to win for the game to be fun. I thought the point of MMO was to have a different experience than a stand alone RPG, but today it is like playing final fantasy 4: You have fun, but you know you are going to win from the second you start playing.
I'm telling you losing all of your equipment is the ultimate death penatly, and it makes the game worth playing.
Originally posted by ChrisMattern And I find paradigm of pulling monsters to an existing camp to be anything but boring. To do it well and get a good level of XP earning without deaths in FFXI takes knowledge, judgment and good reactions.
You must find yardwork to be a competitive, challenging sport if you consider camp XPing in FFXI to be difficult in any way. Pulling is only marginally more difficult (it requires you actually keys regularly, compared to being a black mage where you burst all of your mana and then AFK for 10 minutes).
Originally posted by ChrisMattern And I find paradigm of pulling monsters to an existing camp to be anything but boring. To do it well and get a good level of XP earning without deaths in FFXI takes knowledge, judgment and good reactions.
You must find yardwork to be a competitive, challenging sport if you consider camp XPing in FFXI to be difficult in any way. Pulling is only marginally more difficult (it requires you actually keys regularly, compared to being a black mage where you burst all of your mana and then AFK for 10 minutes).
I stand in awe of your FFXI skills. Yes, ripping hate off the tank and getting two-shotted by the mob is indeed the epitome of BLM play.
Sleeping adds? Understanding when and where to enfeeble? Correctly managing your resting so that you have MPs when the party needs you? Backup healing? Knowing the elemental strength and weakness of the mob you're fighting to avoid getting resisted? Following your melee's skillchain so that when you "burst all of your mana" you do in fact get a Magic Burst? Knowing where the hate line is so that the mob stays where he belongs, on the tank? Bah, a BLM needs not these things. Who needs Chain 5s against IT mobs anyways?
Comments
Here's a solution:
PVE Death Penalty = exp loss + item repair bill
The exp loss is needed in order for folks to respect the game world and to make sinister dungeons....well...sinister.
PVP Death Penalty = item repair bill
Without any kind of a PVP penalty, folks will act like foolhardy idiots and spend all their time zerging instead of thinking about tactics. There needs to be some incentive not to die.
Of course, any death penalty needs to be enough to say "ouch", but not enough to drive folks to delete characters in frustration or cancel accounts.
Just my thoughts.
Someone always comes along and spouts this same idiotic suggestion.
I repeat my same response:
I play MMOGs in part to be competitive and I don't fancy competing at a disadvantage. I want a level playing field where all participants are subject to the same game mechanics and game rules. The only things that should favor players is length of time played, amount of time you are willing to play, and playing smart.
Its about as idiotic as expecting any developer to cater to such a tiny fringe hardcore group who enjoys wasting their time. As usual its not about whats best for the game. If a challenge was all you wanted, creating your own death penalty would be fine, but its not about YOUR penalty. Its about pushing that playstyle on everyone else. You don't want an equal playing field because by playing smart, YOU wouldn't incure that penalty as much as all the noobies. You claim its equal but its inherenthly not. You'd play smarter than them. You wouldn't play equal to the dummies. Knowing you can avoid that penalty better than others is what rocks your socks off. Thats whats "cool" about the penalty.
If the penalty and challenge was whats important, you wouldn't care what the penalty for other people is. Whats really important is your ability to feel superior to those who get penalized more than you. Its basic MMO psych 101. You want others to get punished.
You just figured out that the essence of competition is to prove you are better than someone else at a given task? DUH
What do you think the Olympics are all about?
An equal playing field requires the same ruleset and mechanics for all players on the same server.
I don't see any athletes in the Olympics handicapping themselves for a greater challenge.
Be kind, some of us aren't up to the challenge of playing a game well. Fortunately, for them, there's WoW.
I'm mostly referring to the difference in difficulty of fighting a level 50 mob (at level 50) versus fighting a level 52 mob for the faster leveling rate. In some of the games I've played, level 50 people would one-shot level 10 mobs (they got some kind of reward for this) just because it was safe, easy XP. They could have hunted stuff their own level, but then they would risk dying. That's just boring gameplay to me. And as I've pointed out before, I only have so much time to play, so if I play and screw up and loose a whole week's progress, I'm not going to stay long.
Harsh is just a word,it depends what you mean by harsh.Kiddie type players consider just dying to be harsh.I think only some one who looks at it rationally and thinks about it for the whole good of the game can be taken seriously.Obviously players who consider death alone to hardcore or drastic would never agree to anything other than instant level 70 after one week with a full set of top of the line gear and 50 million game currency in there bank.These type of players i don't even give a second thought to as they are not there to make a good game they are not gamers at all,i don't know what they are.
On the other hand you get players who think it should be full out war ,6 level 50 should be able to kill one level 30 and rape him for everything he has,again this is just dumb and does nothing to make a good game for all.
You need to look at why you or others are even playing the game?Do you want ANY CHALLENGE at all?would the majority of people out there want to play a sport whereby the other team gets a distinct advantage over the other?of course not.so we need to make a games death penalty challenging yet make it worthwhile for all the players of the game.
Example if you are going to make it where by you lose 25% xp on death,then you better make sure the game offers an equal/fair bonus to not dying.No 25% Xp gain or skill gains would not be fair,but something along the lines of what would be a fair ratio to deaths?If you say the average gamer dies 5% of the time against even matches,then the reward should be balanced against the 25% death penalty.
There is another real simple way to make death penalties extremely fair for all.That is by offering risk vs reward.The game would have to have loot table rewards.So if you are level 10 and the game offers the top loot table for killing anything from 5+ levels above you then it's up to you to decide if the risk is worth the reward.You go for the top end loot table you chance the largest % of death penalty.If you are a wimp and want the low end of the death penalty,then you get what you deserve...the low end of the loot table.This is an extremely fair system where by you get your own choice,and time restraints or any other excuse i have heard about hardcore vs softcore would have ZERO bearing on the benefits or penalties.This would leave it all up to the players to decide.
When PVP is concerned a very similar system should be used.If you want to kill lower level players,then you get minimal rewards like maybe just a % of there gold but no gear and a low % for XP gain,BUT you would also stand to lose the most %xp and loot because you are taking almost no risk..On the other hand if you fight an even matched player or someone above your level then you should get your just reward,higher % of XP gain more loot and % of players gold.This is all just a system that is fair for all and not looking at it in an individual case by case.I mean you have to make a game do something,you will NEVER please all,so a game has to make a stance and deliver what is at least fair for all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Harsh death penalty = challenge = better game
this is not a try to insult anyone.
but most of the players (i have meet) who wants very harsh death penalties, are the same guys/girls who will brag about how "hardcore" the game is and act like they allmost should have a medal for playing the game.
Harsh death penalty does not make a game more challenging . LOL Actual game mechanics and the strategy required for battle makes for a better challenge. All a harsh death penalty is an illusion of risk, but if you have players that could care less if they died or the in game consequences it has no affect. SOme players could care less, and this will not affect them either way. If they don;t like the consequences and just choose not to play the game when it is no longer fun. See when players play the game with real friends they already have a reason to fight better, not because of anything the game does. This is an illusion of risk for players that have no other reason to fight well, which is artificial and short lived at best. After you PVP so much even if you have perma death it still does not make you care any more either way if you die because you can just go play another game. Therefore I do not see the purpose in it in the first place other than to reduce monthly subs for a game because you have more people that quit over this than enjoy the self punishment. So why would it make sense for any developer to reduce the amount of profit they make off the game in order to please the few who enjoy self punishment?
Someone always comes along and spouts this same idiotic suggestion.
I repeat my same response:
I play MMOGs in part to be competitive and I don't fancy competing at a disadvantage. I want a level playing field where all participants are subject to the same game mechanics and game rules. The only things that should favor players is length of time played, amount of time you are willing to play, and playing smart.
Its about as idiotic as expecting any developer to cater to such a tiny fringe hardcore group who enjoys wasting their time. As usual its not about whats best for the game. If a challenge was all you wanted, creating your own death penalty would be fine, but its not about YOUR penalty. Its about pushing that playstyle on everyone else. You don't want an equal playing field because by playing smart, YOU wouldn't incure that penalty as much as all the noobies. You claim its equal but its inherenthly not. You'd play smarter than them. You wouldn't play equal to the dummies. Knowing you can avoid that penalty better than others is what rocks your socks off. Thats whats "cool" about the penalty.
If the penalty and challenge was whats important, you wouldn't care what the penalty for other people is. Whats really important is your ability to feel superior to those who get penalized more than you. Its basic MMO psych 101. You want others to get punished.
What you say doesn't make sense at all. Everyone must be on the same playing field or things won't work. It's like you were playing in a volleyball tournament where Team A accept the risk of being eliminated if they lose the game while Team B simply refuse to be eliminated because it is too harsh for them. It cannot work.
Harsh death penalty = challenge = better game
True, true. I think what most folks do not understand is that the "harshness" is a scalable variable. If a penalty is too light, then rewards are not appreciated. If a penalty is too harsh, then players might delete their characters or cancel their accounts in frustration.
Obviously, there is a middle ground. I think early DAOC, from what I remember, or early EQ2 even, had the penalty set about right. UO was too harsh, maybe EQ even, although the latter game was very exciting largely due to the penalty for dying. WOW, well, WOW means nothing; all gear and levels in WOW mean nothing to me, because they were easily won without hardly any risks.
Bottom line: death penalties can be too light or too harsh, and must be appropriately scaled and set to maximize player enjoyment.
Here is a refined equation, I think is accurate:
L = Living, or surviving
D = Dying
X = magnitude; bumping up D by a factor of X will also increase L proportionately
Fun = (x * L) - (x * D) (So, basically "living" minus "dying" equals net "fun")
Exception, if (x * D) (i.e., dying) is above a certain threshold, the game will become intolerable, regardless of (x * L) (i.e. living), so there is some limit. (Maybe a Calculus person could better model this.)
So, enhancing x will enhance the penalty for dying, but also enhance the experience of living (or winning). Since players presumably win more than die, the "Fun" value has got to increase in magnitude as long as the penalty for Dying doesn't get too high.
This is definitely something that can be calibrated based upon player feedback during beta tests.
In game rewards have no affect on my " fun" what I consider fun is the actual mechanics and strategy of pvp combat and could care less about anything the game gives me in game or does to me in game, though death penalty does affect my fun because If my friend dies then I can no longer play with my friend, and I do not pay to play a game to wait for things to happen.. I enjoy playing with real friends and if they can't come right back out and fight when they die, I would rather play a game I can actually play with my friends. Why would I play a game with my friends if my friends can;t actually play it. AT least In games like guild wars I can rez my friends so they can participate as well, otherwise I might as well be playing the game alone., therfore there would be no point in it being an mmo in the first place.
I think we can take from games like WoW that most people are not interested in competeting with others. There may be some hardcore players that are like the atheletes in the olympics who wish a more difficult challenge so that they can show they are the best. Most people seem to just enjoy playing with friends or going solo against whatever PvE mobs they can. Not everyone is driven to be the best.
YOU obviously need a harsh death penalty to restrain you from becoming a reckless zerging fool.
Your problem is you assume everyone is exactly the way you are. That without that harsh death penaltiy, they'll be as reckless and heedless as you are without one.
I don't need a harsh death penalty to motivate me to not do something stupid. I approach all combat with a healthy sense of self preservation, because dying is a PITA in and of itself. At least for me.
Your milage may vary, but it's pretty clear that you insist that you have company in your misery.
If you need such a harsh death penalty to motivate you to make exploration exciting, just commit yourself to reroll your toon every time you die.
I dare you to.
You won't, though. You need an external ruleset to impose discipline on you.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Just because you like to play with friends does not mean you do not want hardcore competition. I want a game that gives me both. I want to be able to play with friends, and I want good game mechanics and hardcore strategy. I do not see that a death penalty has any affect on this simply because the illusion of it being risk does not affect me the same way, now if the risk was real such as I had to pay $20 everytime I died that would be real risk to me, not an illusion. I would be more for a real cash penalty everytime i died vs an in game penalty that way it would actually mean something. The only thing the death penalty means to me is being forced to wait to have fun .. well I don;t accept it and log out and go have fun elsewhere anyhow so the death penalty didn't really punish me anyhow. LOL
In most games (including FFXI) the level 50 will get *no* XP from killing the level 10, so this is hardly a counter argument.
And I find paradigm of pulling monsters to an existing camp to be anything but boring. To do it well and get a good level of XP earning without deaths in FFXI takes knowledge, judgment and good reactions.
Applause. The poster has it exactly right. FFXI is another game that, IMHO, gets the death penalty right. It stings, but it's not devastating. You can just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, say, "Well, I won't do *that* again!" and continue on.
Ultima Online used to have the perfect death penatly. Which is part of why I loved the game. In the old days if you died anywhere anyone could loot you. It was a criminal act to loot a non-criminal body. It took 2 minutes for a body to become open for everyone. If you died in town you had two minutes to run to a healer -> get a ressurection -> and run back to your body. If you died out of town you better hope someone is around to save your body.
Also if you happened to die due to player violence you were likley going to lose everything you carried at the time. Which is what made the pvp better than MMO games today. Loot is an intrigrual part to PVP in my mind which is why I can't play any of the new MMOs. I like the comment that everything is turning into a TEABALL League. Seriously it is like everyone has to win for the game to be fun. I thought the point of MMO was to have a different experience than a stand alone RPG, but today it is like playing final fantasy 4: You have fun, but you know you are going to win from the second you start playing.
I'm telling you losing all of your equipment is the ultimate death penatly, and it makes the game worth playing.
You must find yardwork to be a competitive, challenging sport if you consider camp XPing in FFXI to be difficult in any way. Pulling is only marginally more difficult (it requires you actually keys regularly, compared to being a black mage where you burst all of your mana and then AFK for 10 minutes).
I stand in awe of your FFXI skills. Yes, ripping hate off the tank and getting two-shotted by the mob is indeed the epitome of BLM play.
Sleeping adds? Understanding when and where to enfeeble? Correctly managing your resting so that you have MPs when the party needs you? Backup healing? Knowing the elemental strength and weakness of the mob you're fighting to avoid getting resisted? Following your melee's skillchain so that when you "burst all of your mana" you do in fact get a Magic Burst? Knowing where the hate line is so that the mob stays where he belongs, on the tank? Bah, a BLM needs not these things. Who needs Chain 5s against IT mobs anyways?