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What QUESTING Could & Should Be.
dalmanus
Member Posts: 10
Many players hate quests, but I think this is either due to the fact that when they think quests they think Kill X ammount of monsters, Obtain X ammount of items and report back to X npc.
That is a form of questing, and probably the most common but it is a very lazy route for the coders of the game, which is why you'll constantly see this form of quest re-appear in mmorpg after mmorpg.
It's very possible when the coders think of quests or hear demands for quests from the players they think the same thing.
Another type of quests are player run or GM run, these can be fun but very unconsistant and I will mention no more of them.
I will simply offer to coders, players, what quests could & should be.
They could be fun, unique, amazing, difficult, complex, more importantly they could REQUIRE the player to USE their brain. No more hack and slash X, no more gathering X.
Questing should involve puzzles. I'll attempt to illustrate an un-scripted example from my own brain, you can google this if you want but I am making this up as I go, just 1 example I don't want to take all day explaining this.
You come across a stone tablet, it is a broken fragment with an alien language on it, you bring this piece to the well known mage in town, he tells you it is from an ancient people who were native to the land, and says it may be a treasure map, hold magical powers if united with the other pieces or simply tell of the history of the people as not much is known about them. Basically you have to find the other pieces, lets say there are 5 pieces total, you need to talk to people to get info, maybe you need to steal one of them, maybe one is on a boss, maybe one is here and another there. Once pieced together it simply looks like an alphabet, you ask for advice on what to do but you the player are FORCED to use your brain and solve the puzzle, use the alphabet to at a future point solve another puzzle which opens a room to a secret treasure of somekind, the puzzle is random (the alphabet would be different every time, for example), and so other players can't pay money or ask for help on this quest. That's just one example I can think of where a player could actually be drawn into a quest, have fun, and be forced to think, something few players have ever had the oppertinuty to experience, after a quest like this a player would have a positive outlook on the word 'quest'. If I can make up this example literally as I type how hard can it be for the coders making countless crappy games before they get questing right?
The above is an example of what a quest should be in a roleplaying game, be it mmoRPg or not, it is not the lazy route which is why it's the least traveled. If you in no way shape or form want to 'quest' like this I recommend playing halo, quake, doom, duke nukem & wolfenstein 3d and leave RPGs alone.
Comments
You come across a stone tablet, it is a broken fragment with an alien language on it, you bring this piece to the well known mage in town,
You see a glowing tablet on the ground pick it up, and get a quest from it to go talk to a npc.
he tells you it is from an ancient people who were native to the land, and says it may be a treasure map, hold magical powers if united with the other pieces or simply tell of the history of the people as not much is known about them. Basically you have to find the other pieces, lets say there are 5 pieces total, you need to talk to people to get info, maybe you need to steal one of them, maybe one is on a boss,
The next step of the quest chain is to
Loot one
Find one
Steal one
maybe one is here and another there. Once pieced together it simply looks like an alphabet, you ask for advice on what to do but you the player are FORCED to use your brain and solve the puzzle, use the alphabet to at a future point solve another puzzle which opens a room to a secret treasure of somekind, the puzzle is random (the alphabet would be different every time, for example), and so other players can't pay money or ask for help on this quest.
The next step of the quest activates a glowing door based on which alphabet you got.
That's just one example I can think of where a player could actually be drawn into a quest, have fun, and be forced to think, something few players have ever had the oppertinuty to experience, after a quest like this a player would have a positive outlook on the word 'quest'. If I can make up this example literally as I type how hard can it be for the coders making countless crappy games before they get questing right?
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You see, your quest is easily the same thing as even wows simplistic quests. What your forgetting is that all the "fluff" your describing is in the text given by wow, people just choose to not read it or care.
But for GM run quests, i agree they are fun.
About 5 years ago(or around then). I used to run a private a RO server which had about 1000~ accounts and 100~ active players(during prime times).
My gm team would offer events to the players, while i actually coded in quest npcs and events for either custom items or rare drops, and then sneak them in during a maintenance.
We had a lot of fun on there, and I could see a mmo being fun like this too.
The difference was.
1. the lack of other quests, and the big grind game.
2. player run system, and being friends with the actual playerbase.
if a mmo were to actually do this, there would have to be small intimate servers, with a gm or two on each one.
Even if you pair the example to it's simplest form it would still be a damn sight better than 95% of quests in MMO's including wow. However the key is the puzzle aspect, and not to be spoon feed the answer, which is exactly what happens the majority of the time.
Only few here on mmorpg.com hates quests 900k registered maybe regular visitors of those 900k, lets be positive 100k post or reply here(thats still alot but we need a number ).
Of those 100k maybe 10% dislike quests.
There are millions of players out there who play themepark games and like endless repeating quest chains of kill 10x these.
So bottom line is only a very small part of mmo community dislike these kind of quests.
Im affraid that big games will not chance soon, you realy have seek a mmo where quests are realy complex and a nice exploring adventure like it should be in rpg.
Darkfall hopefuly have such quests, where you realy have feeling its an adventure and puzzle to solve and when complete you feel like a hero who have done something realy meaningfull:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Yeah this is what I'm trying to focus on, the puzzle aspect. I don't think I've played a new game in the past 10 years where the quest couldn't be accomplished by ignoring the text and eventually wandering into the miniboss. If you can accomplish the quest by ingoring the NPC dialogue or are not forced to think at all, basically if the quest is mindless it'll be no different than grinding.
Yeah this is what I'm trying to focus on, the puzzle aspect. I don't think I've played a new game in the past 10 years where the quest couldn't be accomplished by ignoring the text and eventually wandering into the miniboss. If you can accomplish the quest by ingoring the NPC dialogue or are not forced to think at all, basically if the quest is mindless it'll be no different than grinding.
I have to agree with both quotes, the last time I played a game with puzzles that you speak of it was a single player game made in the early 90s by the name of Ultima VII, heck even later mario brothers and tomb raider have more complex puzzles than every single MMORPG on the market today, it's almost as if the MMORPG makers think everyone is looking for a UO-sandbox experience, and this is personally not what I'm looking for, I enjoy a game with an in-depth quest structure along with a storyline written so well it literally pulls you into the world of the game, the best pvp can possibly do this for a while but after it's over you look around and see the world isn't worth living in because it's too shallow, there's something missing, it's the storyline and quests associated, puzzle based, puzzle quests with no easy answer will never feel like grinding, now a days everything is handed to the player on a silver platter, 10million gold only 30$, maxxed out character only 50$, it's the cheat mentality, and since it's in the MMORPG world where cheats virtually don't exist except in the form of bugs.
The quest you describe as the 'puzzle quest' can also be known as the 'cheat free' quest, there are a lot of instant gratification teens out there that would never buy into this 'cheat free' quest system but most players in their later 20s and above would probably appreciate it much more, and such a virtual world would cause players to stay much longer and not dispose of the game like it were garbage, Richard Garriott is not going to be making the next UO anytime soon, EA isn't unless they buy the company that does, I think this type of game could exist if the idea of puzzle quests was driven by MMORPG fans enough, it's threads like this that could literally cause this to exist in the next big MMORPG, it may happen in 2 years or 10 years, I'm not the type of gamer to buy a game based on hype, I read the reviews a month after it's released and likely never buy the game. If such a game as this existed the reviews would be loud and clear.
--- Razimus
He summarized his idea into a post that wouldn't take a few minutes to read and you missed the entire point by not using your imagination. His idea isn't "the same thing as even wows simplistic quests." The main draw to this kind of quest is that it would be more epic than a conventional MMO quest. In WoW, you start from point A, travel to point B to accomplish one goal and return to point A. In his example, there are many points within the one quest. It's almost as if there are quests inside the primary quest and they all come together in the end.
I don't think a lot of players really "like" those quests. People do quests because they don't really have the choice. In WoW for example, you are forced to quest because if you don't you will never advance.
I'd say that no one actually like the "bring me back 25 zebra skins" kind of quests. We just have to pray that MMORPGs developers start being creative again. The actual formula for quests is getting boring and... quite embarassing. Seriously, am i the only one who feel a bit silly when I find myself wasting 30 minutes of my life killing the same dumb mobs over and over again? If someone would pass by and look at my computer screen I would power off my PC in panic... Me? Uhh... doing stupid quests? Are you crazy?! I was just watching porn I swear!
I say give quests multiple endings and allow players to figure how they want to go about solving a quest, and leave the rewards unknown to the player until he has finished it.
Remove the exp rewards, quests should give cash, and rare quests should give equipment.
Remove quest giver icons, making players who want to quest, to have to interact more in depth with npc's. For instance one npc, while not offering a quest, could state a short rumor about another npc that is looking to hire someone for a quest, then the player must find this npc if interested.
Give quests unexpected twists, for instance your given a simple delievery task to another town, on the way perhaps a group of bandits ambush you, disappear with whatever you were suppose to deliever, and now you need to find these guys and get it back to finish the delievery. Not the best example, but its an idea.
A personal idea I have, is make certain boss/raid/dungeon mob's spawn or become vulnerable after a particular quest is completed. Say a guild wants to slay a dragon, but on their 1st attempt, the dragon reveils that no one within the raid has the only weapon that can make him vulnerable or something, after which he preceeds to own the crap out of that raid. They then figure they need to find whatever this weapon is, which may be a reward for doing a particular quest that is perhaps related to the dragon's backround story or something. 2nd attempt, the dragon is vulnerable after the weapon is used, and it can continue on as a normal raid from there.
I totally agree. I'm one of those people who like the whole adventure feel. Anyway, I think story is one thing, but execution is another. Meaning, a game can add all the fancy wording when an NPC explains what the quest is for, but I think a lot if not most people just skip all that and jump to the quest log because they know that the quest is basically just a "gather X" or "kill X" kind of thing...
So it falls down to how the system actually requires them to read and think, because it can't be summarized or turned into a checklist. Like your idea dalmanus. Basically the whole "not spoon-feeding the answer" idea too.
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Make no mistake about why these babies are here. They are here to replace us. - Seinfeld
Give me this kind of quest any day!
http://www.mmoghetto.com/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=53&page=inline&id=1056
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The reason you don't see quests like that (or very many) is that they take a long time to make and yet don't take all that long to do for the player.
Look at the adventure game (for PCs). Usually those have the sort of quests you are taking about, puzzles. It takes a year or so to develop one of those games, and yet they only take 5-6 hours to finish. Plus, it's really hard to make stuff like that random.
While most MMORPG quests are boring, what they do though is provide some focus to the player, and give them a sense of accomplishment.
Also bear in mind, many of these games have 1000s of players on a server. How can a GM all run adventures for them? On a smaller, free server where GMs do it for fun, sure. Or maybe once or twice a day for everyone who shows up. But tailoring quests on demand can't be done.
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
He summarized his idea into a post that wouldn't take a few minutes to read and you missed the entire point by not using your imagination. His idea isn't "the same thing as even wows simplistic quests." The main draw to this kind of quest is that it would be more epic than a conventional MMO quest. In WoW, you start from point A, travel to point B to accomplish one goal and return to point A. In his example, there are many points within the one quest. It's almost as if there are quests inside the primary quest and they all come together in the end.
I used my imagination, but i also said it how it would be played by actual people in the game.
What you have to realize is that having 1 long quest, and a series off 8 quests are the same thing, only it spaces the reward out over the course of it's time.
For example let me "fluff out" a quest chain in wow.
You find a abandoned wrecked boat, and you have to discover it's origins, so you dive into the river nearby to find a package containing momentos of the owner. you travel to the encampment nearby to discover a forgetful gnome who owned the package. He remembers he was supposed to strength his sword, so he tells you about a dwarf who can do it.
After traveling into the snowy mountains, you are told about a man that can help you... unfortunately he is dead. And talking to the dead is no easy task. You travel to a forest and find a lone dwarf who can create a potion to help you, but the only plants capable of it are guarded by a watchman. You buy some bait and lure it away from the gate for just long enough to get your root and be gone. After recieving the potions and getting them tested, you have to travel to the desert, and consume a potion which gives you a out of body experience to come into contact with a ghost.
etc etc i'm too lazy to type up the rest.
But you have to realize that if you spin it and fluff it, anything sounds interesting. I merely posted that your example really isn't anything that's gonna be PLAYED different.
Heck even part of your quest is totally impossible(random puzzles to a infinite amount of areas?) To avoid people just looking up solutions.
I HATE quests, very few games have quests I even bother to do. After my first char in wow I just skipped 90% of them and grinded the exp. Quests take too much time to make and after your done, its worthless to you, if its repeatable it becomes a grind. I would rather they invested in sound gameplay mechanics.
I have played small games with epic quests, that have no walk throughs. Its not fun needing to complete something and being lost stuck confused for weeks. Most people asking for this have never had a game with hard epic quests without walk throughs. You cant ask for help when your the first person to do it.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
I think the spoonfeeding just might be the solution. Cutscenes do get your attention and the story is easier to follow. The same reason why people prefer to watch television over reading a book. It is easier. Only problem here is that it takes too much money and time to make.
I also think that getting rid of the checklist might actually hurt the game. Sure, you have to use your brains but it becomes harder to follow what to do next. I confess. I don't care why the NPC needs to have these monsters killed. The checklist tells me to kill them. So I kill them. I've done hundrends of these kind of quests before so why not do another. The question "why" becomes irrelevant when every single quest wants you to do the same thing with different fluff.
Only goal here is the xp or the item. There is no other motivation. I certainly don't want to do it to appease this uninteresting NPC, who exists solely for the quest. Writing more interesting and complex quests costs also time and money.
This is why I did not continue Vanguard after the first month of play. Sure the world is big and magnificient and full of quests. More than you can do with just one playthrough. But why? 95% of the quests are trivial gathering, hunting, courier etc. from the "big book of mmorpg quests". But they had a twist: It is a ridiculous amount of gathering and hunting. Imagine the fair amount of hunting you want to do times 4.
I agree with MarL. If developers don't want invest in better quality quests then spend your money on some solid, intuitive mechanics. My aggro goes to games that have boring quests, boring character development and are generally unpolished. What are we paying for! F**k the community if the game sucks!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Yeah quests your use to are a grind, the quests I speak of wouldn't involve simply ABC, but would involve something IN-BETWEEN ABC, it would be A-B-(PUZZLE)-C. The puzzle would be worth it, the reward could be treasure, exp, weapon you can't find anywhere else, access to an underground, etc.
When a mmorpg is all about grinding your forced to be entertained by the community, the players, forcing other people online to be your entertainment instead of the game which is supposed to do that, the players are supposed to be there and enhance the experience but not be the only thing to have fun with, if you want to solo you're screwed. The perfect game to me is NPC automated puzzle quests like I described and a good PvP system, Order & Chaos, without both the game would fall short, I'm not one of those people that ONLY likes the quests I like to PK and be PK'd, I think it's fun, I like to kill monsters but not like Silkdroad or Archlord, I've only played WoW on my friends account for 1 second and I didn't like the cartoon style, but from what I hear I wouldn't like it. I am willing to pay a monthly fee but only if it were to have this order and chaos.