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Perma Death in DnD Online
Vampirian
Member Posts: 41
To date almost all games have been affraid to do this and I am sure Atari/Turbine wil follow suit, which I find very depressing.
One of the main features of PnP DnD was the fact that every action, every decision had a consequence, which could be dire. The MMORPG's today have removed this aspect of the game and because of that I believe a lot of the immersiveness of the game with it.
Now of course this is just my opinion, but I would love to see some type of permadeath involved in the game. This would bring about a true sense of accomplishment. A reason to rethink your planed actions, a stronger reason to relish your character.
The sense of surviving a tough scenario, or even the agony of death of a character you had for months if not years was what made the game worth playing to me. I remember people in my group going to the point of tears when a character died, and the ceremonies we would have to say our farewells. This is a feature I would love to see implemented in one way form or another.
Again, this is my personal opinion. Nothing more.
Comments
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A Legend was Born
exactly Dregard. With the use of Ressurect, and Reincarmation spells I think this could be very doable. This then allows for a miriad of spells to be implemented that won't because ppl are affraid to lose their characters. i.e Power word Kill, Disinegrate etc.
Just the possibilities that would be revealed due to a reincarmation spell bring a whole new aspect to the game that few have contemplated.
And when I say Permadeath, of course there are many varieties of this type of feature. Mourning is adding an interesting feature called "Blood lines" which makes permadeath not so harsh by allowing you to create kin that can carry on the family name and level faster based on the skill level of the main character upon death.
So there are alternatives to adding a feature such as this, people just have to think out of the box to see it's many applications.
GalletGun, I understand your apprehension to a feature such as this. But if you ever played PnP D&D then you know that it isn't as bad as some people surmise.
Most people played a PnP gamming session once a week/once a month. What happened when your toon died? You created another, of course, depending on the compassion of the DM you may have been able to recreate at 1/2 the level of the traveling party and possibly keep a couple items.
Again, this is another way to implement permadeath so that the reality of your characters death is not so harsh.
Many ways to do it to appeal to the masses. I think the term "permadeath" automatically causes people to put on blinders and not look for the possibilitie.
I think that in the case of a MMORPG perma-death is a bad idea. Even in a D&D setting.
In that P&P game with the DM perma-death is just fine BECAUSE of that DM. With a DM there to watch your every move and provide content for JUST YOU you can be garuenteed that nothing is unbalanced......If it turns out that mabey that monster the DM threw at you was a little harder than he expected, he can start fudgeing rolls or mabey the monster dosen't really have 75 hitpoints he only has 40....
None of this happens in a MMORPG. If you are walking through a field and suddenly someone trains a Wraithlord ontop of you you are dead. You lag out and you are dead. These are of course a rehash of the reasons that permadeath dosen'ty exist in ANY MMORPG right now, and probaly won't ever.
People keep suggesting permadeath because they have romantic notions about great gameplay they had in p&p games, but fail to realize that those p&p games were perfectly balanced to their party.....And there was always big-daddy-GM there to fudge if someone got unlucky. None of that exists in a MMORPG.
Imo, it depends upon how the game it setup.... if its a pure levleing fest (please god no!) then permadeath wouldn't work, as hours and hours of leveling could be lost in a second, or via a bug. Then consider that if PvP is to be included (again, please god) then how would Permadeath work with that eh?
I R BABOON
Xira...I agree with you wholeheartedly. But I still have a problem with everyone getting to 20th level (Max level upon shipping) just because they have the afforded time to delve into the game. Regardless of the countless blunders, and deaths accompanying their character as it grows and gains levels.
To me this totally underminds what D&D is about.
But of course I also understand that this game needs to make money, and therefore it must conform itself to what the general public is looking for. And because of this I am horrified at what the final product may become.
I have played D&D for 23 years (since I was 11). I have dreampt of this game going online since the incepption of Ultima back in 97. But I do not want it done if it is going to make my accomplishments water down to the point that anyone with unlimited hours available to them to play, will eventualy be 20th level.
If that is the approach then they might as well take the cookie cutter MMPORPG and slap a D&D title on it.
I know I am goin overboard, I know I am being quite the zealot on this topic. But anything short of managing the amount of 20th level characters is blasphemy in my eyes!
Alllowing everyone the opportunity to get to 20th lvl or whatever the level restriction is, is horribly wrong.
Again..this is my opinion..be nice on the flames..as I have a fragile psyche
i agree it would fun...but i think it should be implemented like WC3 did...a Hardcore based Server..that way only those interested would try it..and therefore you don't lose those that would be frustrated from the game completely.
/agree Vampirian
LoL I just posted my thoughts about it on the suggestion thread and its about the same as yours
"Really, I'm quite sane. Just ask my psychiatrist, Dr. Sockpuppet."
"Rehab is for quitters."
I agree it would be interesting to do. It could be a dichotomy of death. Death in which the body is partially or wholly intact and can be resurrected, or death in which the body is completely destroyed such as a disintigrate spell.
The first type of death could only be helped with a body drag to a temple or a cleric being on hand.
The second type of death, resurrection is not possible without the intervention of VERY high spells, such as Wish, or divine intervention. This could lead to your groupmates going on a quest to retreive... you!
The point being that death would have very serious consequences. No experience debt or automatic resurrection. Making getting to higher levels a MAJOR accomplishment.
Maybe, as was mentioned, a specific server could be done in this manner just like specific PvP servers are done. Just my 2 cents.
You know I wouldn't expect to see this in D&DOnline...They will be a smallish game, they can't really afford to throw up a server with a very unpopular feture like this.
I don't expect to see it in EQ2. They are money-driven and won't put something in that will cost them mass CS bills.
The game you might propose this to is...WoW. Blizzard has been known for being willing to try new ideas, and catering to the hardcore players....(See Hardcore mode in Diablo2)
Mabey..Just mabey...They will be willing to try a Hardcore server in WoW.
Smallish? Atari? Turbine? WoTC? I would not classify any of the aforementioned as "smallish". But that is not what we are debating.
I want the game to be true to the rules. Perma-death is being true to the game. Except for the Divine intervention or in this case DM (If they have full time ones for content purposes), Wish's or maybe even channeled Resurects for Disinegrate deaths or Death Magic spells.
There are multiple ways they can do it and remain true to the game. Hell..put a 5 death limit before perma-death. Again, my biggest problem is seeing everyone and their 6 yr old kids all 20th level because death means nothing.
Put a monkey in front of a keyboard and every once in a while they wil type a word. Same thing applies here. Put a player in front of a keyboard and regardless of time invested, eventually everyone will be 20th lvl.
Whats the point? Where's the sense of accomplishment when everyone knows if they can dedicate the time you will eventually get there.
Horrible! Scarry! And flat out wrong for this game! DnD is about the accomplishment. Knowing you stayed a live and made good choices, sound battle plans etc.
Not sit back, die and think..oh bummer..I lost 2 hours worth of exp. guess I better go complete some more Dungeon crawl's to get it back.
Bah..moot point. I am done debating this as it won't happen and because of it, it will basically be like every other MMOG out there. Aside from the name. (Ok that was harsh, but this means that much to me.)
Well i don't think everyone will easily be 20th level. Why?
Because the game will actually require skill, tactics, and a good deal of preparation.
My hope is that the dungeon difficulties will get higher and higher, so that in the end only the most skillful, or intelligent players can reach 20. By putting challenges back into mmorpgs, it stops being a matter of time, but more a matter of ability. The combat system and the design of the instanced dungeons will allow such things.
And death penalties should be significant; as in you lose progress and even delevel. So sucky players or immature players that simply rush in over and over, will never get anywhere. I hope that at level 20, dungeons will be ridiculously tough.
Personally.....
I would love it....becasue your right.....when you win and survive a tough campaign or whatever.....becasue when you win you feel like "Wow, I did it.......wow...that was fun"
BUT!!!!
see....not many people would play or buy the game then knowing this...and the company would lose money...anbd every company wants money.....so in the end they won't make a game like this...
One idea that might be cool is if you can get ressed.....like when you die you have to make a new char...your old char will still be in the char list.....but it won't be playable.......so in game you can do a quest....not really hard but not to easy...to get the char ressed.....and there have a ceremonie and maybe even some sort of video for it...I personally would lioke to see that...
but thats just me
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"Everyones life has a beginning and an end, No one can change that."-Hiko
"If you wish to taste the ground, then feel free to attack."-Kenshin Himura
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WoW
-Rhalon 85 B.E. rogue
-Rhalon 81 UD Mage
-Doneski 85 Orc death knight
"Everyones life has a beginning and an end, No one can change that."-Hiko
"If you wish to taste the ground, then feel free to attack."-Kenshin Himura
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You know a good way to do perma-death without perma-death...And manageing the number of level 20 charecters at the same time...
Make an Exp cap. A persistant TOTAL exp cap.....
So if you never die, you can make level 20. But if you die once it's level 19 max...Die 10 times mabey it's level 18 max. Die 100 times and you are looking at level 14 forever:)
Perma-death is an overall bad idea for MMORPGs. maybe for games that don't require you to put in months of work for your character.. but in an MMORPG - no.
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977
To answer this question simply is Permadeath does not equal MMORPG. I have played 4 HARDCORE MMORPGS in my time and they are everquest, star wars galaxies, final fantasy XI and city of heroes and let me tell you getting exp and dieing and getting a penalty is already a bit of a turn off but if you implement permadeath into a MMORPG its a complete turn off for the majority of people who play MMORPGS. Even if you try to get creative with permadeath the end result is still the same. YOu have to start over and you have to gain all that exp again. For people who have other things going on in there lives its a real pain b/c we cherish the time we get to play games, but for hard cores gamers who just play 24/7 and the only distractions in there life are eating and sleeping this is ok. Since most people who play MMORPG's are like me, this idea would never work and will never work. I dont mean to bash hardcore gamers, I for one envy them, but thats the solem truth. I never played D&D PnP and permadeath as I have heard is fine in it but MMORPGS and PnP are totally different worlds, I Speak from experience. So its all about people and their lives trying to co exist with their love for MMORPGS and companies try to create newer and better MMORPGS that are in interest for these type of people so its more convenient to play, therefore more money for the companies.
*BOWS* Thank you very much for your time.
If the character would be secondary to something bigger you are developping, much more relevant...with a fast leveling, then perma death would be fine to everyone, as you will only lose a tool, nothing major.
Exemple: If you play a spirit and creates avatars, and these avatars increase the spirit which is immortal, then perma death on the avatars would be fine IMO. Maybe perma death could be or not cheated eventually, totally or partially...but to appeal to most players, you need to work this on the spirit and not on the character. Death would have it consequences, but since it is secondary and you can easily level up again, wont be so bad. (you can keep many avatars ready for your friends to group with and start many others while your friends are not online).
Just a thought.
D&D was not about a spirit althought except maybe in the immortal campaign, but even there, changing avatars was to dire for it to be fun...
I think if someone can see the maximun levels in a few days and this is a secondary aspect of the game, perma death would be fun, and death would be fighted, rez would be good but losing some constitution every time or rolling a % everytime you died...yes some players would have a cleric 20(or whatever is the highest level) sitting and taking no risk, which is fine, they have been leveled up and they are an avatar of the spirit and take 1 spot...there would need to be no decay on any slayed avatar althought, as necromancy(and some more goodie goodie stuff) open many options...even much later!
- "EQ2 or WoW? I wont touch it! Not even with a stick!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Love your point Vampirian,
I would love permadeath. Unfortunately the way MMORPGs are going, death is getting easier and easier every released game. UO you lost ALL your stuff right there on the ground. and for the guy that said Sony wont be harsh in EQ2, EQ had a penalty for dying worse than any game after it. But they will dumb it down for EQ2 probably, just for the masses. And blizzard being innovative ? WoW is basically just an EQ clone with NO death penalty at all basically, unless you are too lazy to run back to your corpse totally protected in ghost mode, how is that for innovation ?
Anyway people have lost sight of the reason to play online RPGs, and that is to have fun, not leveling. If people could have just as much fun at level 1 as they do at level 20, then permadeath would not be so bad, just roll up a new char, try something different, see a different part of the world, meet new people, thats what its about, not leveling. Remember the pnp days, I had some awesome times in level 1-3 modules as I did in the higher level ones. Bring back the thinking part of the game ! Do I really want to try and jump that pit ? or climb down and up the other side ? remember decisions like that ? like the original poster says, making easy death takes away those fun decisions, making them just trial and error.
Unfortunately, Xira brings up the bad points of online versus pnp, there are still unknown and random occurences, lag, power outages, training, etc. That would be my only gripe in dying, is dying to something like that, but it would be impossible to program it to differentiate of course.
So the only solution I see, is having a hardcore server. This is D&D, and if done right there will be tons of people playing and tons of servers, so I dont see a problem of giving people the option at least. You could play on the hardcore server if you felt daring, and have some chars on other servers when you want to just have fun and not be so stressed about dying.
Sorry for the long post, just my two cents worth.
In such a system like I describe above...
You could have better avatars as your spirit grow, more of them as well.
Exemple: You start the game, your first avatar have 10 in every stats and you need to remove 20 points, getting a stat to 6 may count like 10 points...such an avatar can hardly cast the best spells, he dont have the wisdom or the intellect, sure can be level 20 in 3 days, but cant cast above level 5 with 10 + whatever you could put in...so you will want to cycle the avatars eventually, because keeping it take an avatar slot that can be freed...dead it might even give a temporary boost as long as dead(so kinda a permanent boost, however, if you bring it back, you lose that boost when alive), which represent having a follower in afterlife...
Obviously, a character level 20 weak cant do the same as a character level 20 uber, and this is only starting the idea...
PS: the naming of the character would need to be worked, so others players recognize you (unless you dont want to which is another topic) even if you start new avatars all the time.
- "EQ2 or WoW? I wont touch it! Not even with a stick!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Anofayle,
Your idea is smiliar to what Morurning www.realmsofkrel.com is attempting to do. Basically you creat a character with a unique last name. this character goes through life leveling up, gaining noteriety, riches etc. The character eventually dies (at about 500 gaming hours I believe) and his/her kin takes up the blood line. This new character gets some of the skills the forefather had as well as some equipment and money to be used, kind of like a inherientance. Also this new character, who has a new 1st name but carries on the last name of the original character also gets experience bonuses so that the leveling grind is no quite as long as the original.
It's amazing what people can come up with if they stop thinking the only way to make a MMOG is to follow the templates of games already created.
Here is an excerpt from the Mourning ( www.realmsofkrel.com )FAQ outlining their approach towards permadeath
Will there be Perma Death?In most online RPG's there are only temporary deaths; however, this is one of the areas where Mourning breaks away from the rest of the MMORPG's. In Mourning, a player can permanently die.
- Bloodline death, which occurs after 500 hours of game play.
- Battles with gods
- High risk vs reward type situation such as quests that carry the risk of permanent death. You will be notified if you are entering into one of these situations.
Lead Designer explains: "If you want players not to fear playing in a full PvP environment, then the death penalties should not be too harsh. We will have perma death. At first glance, this seems to be a bit of a contradiction, but it isn't that way at all. The perma death situations will be in game, but won't occur in normal playing conditions. I mean, perma death will only occur in exceptional conditions (like while fighting with a boss during an important quest, or while atacking a newbie on his own territory and without having war declared, and so on), or in high risk vs reward gameplay situations. Also, perma death is one of the key ingredients in the bloodline system because every character will have a limited lifespan." Project Manager elaborates: "From all the features that we want to put ingame, this is the one that people love most... or hate most. Each person gives examples of how this will make the game successful or ruin the game. Well, the truth is that both are right - this is the kind of feature that makes or breaks a game. We want bloodlines and permadeath to make this game though.Im afraid i cant see Perma death as an option, although it would warrent a new respect for the player that achived top level,
With cost of games, and the amount spent each month to play the game, and your character dies after four months of walkn on eggshells to avoid death, would cuase many players to call it quits, not to mention the living nightmare for the support teams called apon to find the cuase of death cuzz of lag, or disconnection durring a fight.
There gonna have to stick to a penalty for death, Im afraid i cant see Peram death as an option.
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Leerooooyyy nngggJJennkkinnss..
A Legend was Born