Hello everyone. I have been eyeing this game for a bit now and have finally decided that I like the ideas and approach that the developers are taking with this game enough to become more involved on these forums. It's good to be here! I am a big fan of a skills based system. The idea of a character becoming all-around more powerful just by grinding and repeat killing hundreds of mobs to gain a level, which then in turn advances all of his combat/fighting abilities, is long since played out in this genre. We need a new paradigm, and I think we can find it with this game. One idea that I would like to throw out is to consider skills that are not related to comabt at all. You could have skill trees that are based on how quickly/efficiently you can advance other skills once acquired. If you were to consider the different basic archetypes then you could have a few "learning" skills that would help to advance future skills within that specific tree. They would take time and effort to obtain, but could increase the players efficiency with moving forward along the skills. There has also been talk on these forums about players needing to interact with spies/diplomats/thiefs and anyone else where their story leads them in order to finish a quest. I think it would be wise to have skills that help in how you can negotiate these quests. For instance, you could have skills that would allow the player to better find the spies/thiefs, and skills to be a better diplomat to loosen the tongues, and skills that would allow more influence upon the weaker minded to do your bidding. These are just a few specific ideas, but the principle is to allow players that want to invest time in their characters for the long term perspective to acquire skills which would modify the way in which they can ontain/perform/complete quests. You don't only need skills that allow yo uto do slightly more damage with a specific weapon or spell.
The problem with the longevity is a big one if peopel don't progress after they have hit skill caps, (not that i think they have them here). Then the longevity and need for a large world is pointless, whichever way you look at it there will be a grind, if there isn't one then tbh it isn't a MMO.
This game from what i read has an ending to the storyline anyway.
well the solution is simple ..infinite lvleling...let players if they wish to advance in lvlsd as long as they can...
Watch though after for example 100 lvl in order to go 101 huge number xp will be needed and so on...+ that for example the game mechanics are such as that a player lvl 92 could beat aplayer lvl 107 ...meaning with this that each lvl would provide just some atributes and skills...that wasy none would be so loonatic to farm lvls..if u need 32 million xp for example to go from lvl 111-->112 lvl plus that they could imply a death penalty after lvl 100 for example so that technicallly u could have the chance if not dying oiften to lvl above the usual lvl cap of a game...
Mind that most mmos usually have a target goal for the player so when he reach the lvl cap he has some goals and he wont loose their intrests for the game... In wow for example the target is to reach the highest ranks in arena for pviers adn step through the most dificults raid dungeons in pve...
I f u could also have the chance to lvl above the cap if u are a skileld player then good for you
You will be happy to know that the game not only has non-combat abilities, but actually is about 50% for each. We're on the third of forth major revamp of the Abilities system (each one refines it more). Right now we're looking to improve the non-combat Abilities area, so this particular discussion could be useful. Feel free to wax on about your ideas in this area. We'll see if there are any we haven't already discussed in our design meetings.
Woohoo
This is definately something I look forward to learning more about in the futures, as I love the idea of having noncombat abilities. If I can recommend you anything, it is to play Wurm Online, even for just a couple hours. That game has the best use of non-combat skills in any MMORPG I have ever seen...it's not that they were done too differently, but each skill could affect the world in a different way. I'll also throw in my 2 cents.
a) Not grindish: It's important to not make the skills repetitive. One of the things I hated most about RuneScape was how repetitive each skill was. I.E. for woodcutting, Sit in front of the tree and cut, never anything new happened. It's worse than grinding.
b) Quest related: I believe each ability shoudl somehow affect your quests. Fir instance, if an army sargeant told you to travel across the hot desert for some reason, then somehow skills should be relative in there. You would need firemaking skill to have a fire at night, a 'nature' skilll which can help you identify which kind of plants have water in them, etc. The skills shouldn't be useless, they should have an affect on what you plan to do in the future.
c) Done outside of quest related activies: <----says it all. I believe players should be able to do these skills outside of quests, so they can make a profit on a certain skill.
Well, that's just my cents, although I'm sure it's everything MMO Magic has already gone over.
Skills are a very important feature when I look into different games, and I love the fact taht CoS has them. The real challenge is making them less-grindish, and I am very curious to see how MMO Magic does this.
__________________________________________________ In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Hello everyone. I have been eyeing this game for a bit now and have finally decided that I like the ideas and approach that the developers are taking with this game enough to become more involved on these forums. It's good to be here! I am a big fan of a skills based system. The idea of a character becoming all-around more powerful just by grinding and repeat killing hundreds of mobs to gain a level, which then in turn advances all of his combat/fighting abilities, is long since played out in this genre. We need a new paradigm, and I think we can find it with this game. One idea that I would like to throw out is to consider skills that are not related to comabt at all. You could have skill trees that are based on how quickly/efficiently you can advance other skills once acquired. If you were to consider the different basic archetypes then you could have a few "learning" skills that would help to advance future skills within that specific tree. They would take time and effort to obtain, but could increase the players efficiency with moving forward along the skills. There has also been talk on these forums about players needing to interact with spies/diplomats/thiefs and anyone else where their story leads them in order to finish a quest. I think it would be wise to have skills that help in how you can negotiate these quests. For instance, you could have skills that would allow the player to better find the spies/thiefs, and skills to be a better diplomat to loosen the tongues, and skills that would allow more influence upon the weaker minded to do your bidding. These are just a few specific ideas, but the principle is to allow players that want to invest time in their characters for the long term perspective to acquire skills which would modify the way in which they can ontain/perform/complete quests. You don't only need skills that allow yo uto do slightly more damage with a specific weapon or spell.
The problem with the longevity is a big one if peopel don't progress after they have hit skill caps, (not that i think they have them here). Then the longevity and need for a large world is pointless, whichever way you look at it there will be a grind, if there isn't one then tbh it isn't a MMO.
This game from what i read has an ending to the storyline anyway.
well the solution is simple ..infinite lvleling...let players if they wish to advance in lvlsd as long as they can...
Watch though after for example 100 lvl in order to go 101 huge number xp will be needed and so on...+ that for example the game mechanics are such as that a player lvl 92 could beat aplayer lvl 107 ...meaning with this that each lvl would provide just some atributes and skills...that wasy none would be so loonatic to farm lvls..if u need 32 million xp for example to go from lvl 111-->112 lvl plus that they could imply a death penalty after lvl 100 for example so that technicallly u could have the chance if not dying oiften to lvl above the usual lvl cap of a game...
Mind that most mmos usually have a target goal for the player so when he reach the lvl cap he has some goals and he wont loose their intrests for the game... In wow for example the target is to reach the highest ranks in arena for pviers adn step through the most dificults raid dungeons in pve...
I f u could also have the chance to lvl above the cap if u are a skileld player then good for you
hehe yes exponential mayhem
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Just some more thoughts on skills of all sorts. I think the most important aspect, in any game, but especially in a game that is going to be skills based, is to create a huge tome of possible skills to pursue.
Make skills that allow you to wear a basic type of armor, like leather. Then, add secondary specialization skills which require the base pre-requisite. In this way you have to continuously make critical decisions about how you want to proceed. Spend many hours gaining marginal benefits of secondary leather armor skills, or pursue new skills.
In a similar way, make several types of mounts, like camels, horses, mules, elephants, flying variety, whatever...but make each one require a skill pre-requisite and make available additional secondary skils, such as mount stability, to help you stay on your horse when hit by mobs, or speed, to coax extra speed out of your mount.
If you magnify this sort of thinking across all combat and non-combat related skill trees you create a game where you are not wrecklessly grinding kills to get levels, but rather constantly re-evaluating where you are and where you want to be on the skills tree. There will always be something you can do to improve and change your character to your own likes.
Just some more thoughts on skills of all sorts. I think the most important aspect, in any game, but especially in a game that is going to be skills based, is to create a huge tome of possible skills to pursue. Make skills that allow you to wear a basic type of armor, like leather. Then, add secondary specialization skills which require the base pre-requisite. In this way you have to continuously make critical decisions about how you want to proceed. Spend many hours gaining marginal benefits of secondary leather armor skills, or pursue new skills. In a similar way, make several types of mounts, like camels, horses, mules, elephants, flying variety, whatever...but make each one require a skill pre-requisite and make available additional secondary skils, such as mount stability, to help you stay on your horse when hit by mobs, or speed, to coax extra speed out of your mount. If you magnify this sort of thinking across all combat and non-combat related skill trees you create a game where you are not wrecklessly grinding kills to get levels, but rather constantly re-evaluating where you are and where you want to be on the skills tree. There will always be something you can do to improve and change your character to your own likes.
This is very much the system that Citadel of Sorcery already has in the design. Lots of Abilities to choose from, no actual limits on what you want to learn, many ways to improve an Ability, including additional echelons, study and practice and Uber Ability sets. You will find that there are many ways to improve your character, with constant decisions on where to spend your time and effort.
In fact, there is so much you can do in this system that we had to include a University in the game to help more caual players who don't want to work so hard at figuring out their plan, yet even there they will need to make decisions. I don't want to get into all the details of this character development system right now, but there are a few details out in other posts on these forums or on the CoS web site (Q&A). But we've also kept some back as well.
You'll find this theme constantly in our design, we don't want to 'dumb down' the game so that everyone has to play at the lowest level of involvement, yet we also try to make ways for more casual players to enjoy the game as well. Hopefully the game will work for many levels of players.
Some more ideas that have been percolating through the day...
climbing skills- those for basic pre-req ability, then have secondary for using ropes and those for free climbing. I love the idea of having to risk climbing a tough castle wall on an unguarded post. If you make it all the way up you gain advantage, but if your level is too low, you have the chance of falling.
Social type skills- skills for deception, story-telling, those to increase your ability to persuade others to your will, successfully tell lies, something along those lines...
Description: a ball of Ice forms in the casters hand after he chucks it somewhere the ball of ice will then explode into a bunch of ice shards a shield of some kind is highly recommended for casting this spell
Counter: by breaking it before it explodes or cast shield next to it so that you are protected while your enemies still have to worry.
hows that for a medieval shrapnel. i have well over 30 skills if you want well intill then heres another
Name: Seven Swords
Description: summons a small tornado with seven swords in it. The caster chooses where it heads.
Counter: Dispel not a good idea. So just use a shield spell
im not sure what the nuke thing was about but i shall take it as a compliment. ohh and here is another spell i thought of.
Name: Earthen Spears
Description: once cast a spike of earth about 6 feet in length start popping out in a line that the caster can choose where it is headed
Counter: any Shock wave to break them or a flood
Name: Ice Storm
Description: the caster makes a mist sort of cloud that surrounds him at the center and 20 yards in each direction. Then ice shards start flying in every direction on the mist and do not leave the cloud the caster is immune.
Counter: by getting out of there or cast a fire shield or sand shield
i have alot more and am willing to share my ever growing list of spells with anyone who wants them and they are for grabs
I have come up with a non-combat ability that has not been used in anygame to date!
It's called transconstruction! What is means is you contruct a transportation vehicle like at first you make carts but as your level advances you get to make cooler vehicles like chariots and thigns. Of course their is another skill needed! Taming: It involves using items to train your mounts to pull and learn where you want to go. This means that the higher the tamer level the faster and more accurately the mount will work with the vehicles.
Non-Combat Skills I'd like to see actually used in a game: We are considering some of these already in one form or another: Bribery - Pay off NPCs to further quests, or to gain benefits in the Citadel Yes. Interrogation - Obtain information from less than willing NPCs Yes. Torture - Break down captured NPCs to improve interrogation (requires the ability to take prisoners) Maybe Blackmail - Use information against NPCs to gain their assistance Yes Disguise - Get into places you don't belong Yes Pickpocket - Get quest items or cash from NPCs Not currently. Gambling - Increase odds in games of chance No (because we have real gambling against other players, so it's your actual skill and luck, not an Ability that will help you here). Sleight of Hand - Cheat at games of chance and hope you don't get caught No (same reason as above).
Wow! 4 yes and a maybe!! I'm excited about this game! This is certainly a huge break from other MMOs where non-combat skills = craft skills | useless skills.
Real Gambling with others - sweet!!
Pickpocketing - Not Currently. Well, it's better than no. I hope it can be a future consideration as a non-combat solution to problems like: collect 10 rat tails, or snag the key from the jailer to bust someone out of prison without having to fight .
so uhh Jatar dp you think that you could use some of my ideas you dont have to worry about me sueing you or anything i just come up with skills that i would like to see in games on my free time if not then i'll try to find a corner and do this by myself or this to my imaginary friend
well here's another
Name: Blow
Description: the caster can with this spell cause a great gust to slow enemys or speed himself or perhaps add great length to his jumps
Some thoughts on the non combat or secondary combat skills:
The ability to combine spells into one effect, could be a skill of sorts, the better it is, the more you can do something like:
1. Fireball @ mob
2. Ground explosion
1 + 2 : explosion upon impact that does AoE damage, and throws nearby mobs and people away from the explosion origin.
Or something more melee Oriented:
1: Poison throwing dagger on the fly
2: Throw at target
Could be combined into throwing poisoned daggers.
And something Non combat related:
Setting up flares in an area to light it up. (or torches, if magnesium flare isnt a possibility)
Purpose being to make it harder for stealthed people to sneak into an area. They would have to put out the Torches via some other way.
A counter to that could be a magical spell to cause it to rain, to put them all out, or cast a water ball at a torch, extinguishing it.
If someone wanted to do so, they could use a secondary combat ability to change the ball of water into Ice, in mid flight. Making it into a dangerous missile!
Dont know if this something that fits, but what if Trap making, for the purpose of catching game animals, for food, or materials,?
And of course, Crafting skills, running the gamut, from tree chopping, down to timber staining, and refining and reforming. Ship beams and masts?
also some sort of shield that will take up mana when hit to a certain extnt insted of life would be nice for those who decide that they want more mana less life
Comments
The problem with the longevity is a big one if peopel don't progress after they have hit skill caps, (not that i think they have them here). Then the longevity and need for a large world is pointless, whichever way you look at it there will be a grind, if there isn't one then tbh it isn't a MMO.
This game from what i read has an ending to the storyline anyway.
well the solution is simple ..infinite lvleling...let players if they wish to advance in lvlsd as long as they can...
Watch though after for example 100 lvl in order to go 101 huge number xp will be needed and so on...+ that for example the game mechanics are such as that a player lvl 92 could beat aplayer lvl 107 ...meaning with this that each lvl would provide just some atributes and skills...that wasy none would be so loonatic to farm lvls..if u need 32 million xp for example to go from lvl 111-->112 lvl plus that they could imply a death penalty after lvl 100 for example so that technicallly u could have the chance if not dying oiften to lvl above the usual lvl cap of a game...
Mind that most mmos usually have a target goal for the player so when he reach the lvl cap he has some goals and he wont loose their intrests for the game... In wow for example the target is to reach the highest ranks in arena for pviers adn step through the most dificults raid dungeons in pve...
I f u could also have the chance to lvl above the cap if u are a skileld player then good for you
Woohoo
This is definately something I look forward to learning more about in the futures, as I love the idea of having noncombat abilities. If I can recommend you anything, it is to play Wurm Online, even for just a couple hours. That game has the best use of non-combat skills in any MMORPG I have ever seen...it's not that they were done too differently, but each skill could affect the world in a different way. I'll also throw in my 2 cents.
a) Not grindish: It's important to not make the skills repetitive. One of the things I hated most about RuneScape was how repetitive each skill was. I.E. for woodcutting, Sit in front of the tree and cut, never anything new happened. It's worse than grinding.
b) Quest related: I believe each ability shoudl somehow affect your quests. Fir instance, if an army sargeant told you to travel across the hot desert for some reason, then somehow skills should be relative in there. You would need firemaking skill to have a fire at night, a 'nature' skilll which can help you identify which kind of plants have water in them, etc. The skills shouldn't be useless, they should have an affect on what you plan to do in the future.
c) Done outside of quest related activies: <----says it all. I believe players should be able to do these skills outside of quests, so they can make a profit on a certain skill.
Well, that's just my cents, although I'm sure it's everything MMO Magic has already gone over.
Skills are a very important feature when I look into different games, and I love the fact taht CoS has them. The real challenge is making them less-grindish, and I am very curious to see how MMO Magic does this.
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
The problem with the longevity is a big one if peopel don't progress after they have hit skill caps, (not that i think they have them here). Then the longevity and need for a large world is pointless, whichever way you look at it there will be a grind, if there isn't one then tbh it isn't a MMO.
This game from what i read has an ending to the storyline anyway.
well the solution is simple ..infinite lvleling...let players if they wish to advance in lvlsd as long as they can...
Watch though after for example 100 lvl in order to go 101 huge number xp will be needed and so on...+ that for example the game mechanics are such as that a player lvl 92 could beat aplayer lvl 107 ...meaning with this that each lvl would provide just some atributes and skills...that wasy none would be so loonatic to farm lvls..if u need 32 million xp for example to go from lvl 111-->112 lvl plus that they could imply a death penalty after lvl 100 for example so that technicallly u could have the chance if not dying oiften to lvl above the usual lvl cap of a game...
Mind that most mmos usually have a target goal for the player so when he reach the lvl cap he has some goals and he wont loose their intrests for the game... In wow for example the target is to reach the highest ranks in arena for pviers adn step through the most dificults raid dungeons in pve...
I f u could also have the chance to lvl above the cap if u are a skileld player then good for you
hehe yes exponential mayhem
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Just some more thoughts on skills of all sorts. I think the most important aspect, in any game, but especially in a game that is going to be skills based, is to create a huge tome of possible skills to pursue.
Make skills that allow you to wear a basic type of armor, like leather. Then, add secondary specialization skills which require the base pre-requisite. In this way you have to continuously make critical decisions about how you want to proceed. Spend many hours gaining marginal benefits of secondary leather armor skills, or pursue new skills.
In a similar way, make several types of mounts, like camels, horses, mules, elephants, flying variety, whatever...but make each one require a skill pre-requisite and make available additional secondary skils, such as mount stability, to help you stay on your horse when hit by mobs, or speed, to coax extra speed out of your mount.
If you magnify this sort of thinking across all combat and non-combat related skill trees you create a game where you are not wrecklessly grinding kills to get levels, but rather constantly re-evaluating where you are and where you want to be on the skills tree. There will always be something you can do to improve and change your character to your own likes.
This is very much the system that Citadel of Sorcery already has in the design. Lots of Abilities to choose from, no actual limits on what you want to learn, many ways to improve an Ability, including additional echelons, study and practice and Uber Ability sets. You will find that there are many ways to improve your character, with constant decisions on where to spend your time and effort.
In fact, there is so much you can do in this system that we had to include a University in the game to help more caual players who don't want to work so hard at figuring out their plan, yet even there they will need to make decisions. I don't want to get into all the details of this character development system right now, but there are a few details out in other posts on these forums or on the CoS web site (Q&A). But we've also kept some back as well.
You'll find this theme constantly in our design, we don't want to 'dumb down' the game so that everyone has to play at the lowest level of involvement, yet we also try to make ways for more casual players to enjoy the game as well. Hopefully the game will work for many levels of players.
Some more ideas that have been percolating through the day...
climbing skills- those for basic pre-req ability, then have secondary for using ropes and those for free climbing. I love the idea of having to risk climbing a tough castle wall on an unguarded post. If you make it all the way up you gain advantage, but if your level is too low, you have the chance of falling.
Social type skills- skills for deception, story-telling, those to increase your ability to persuade others to your will, successfully tell lies, something along those lines...
i have a bunch of combat skills like
hows that for a medieval shrapnel.
i have well over 30 skills if you want well intill then heres another
Nuke - DESTORYS EVERYTHINGGGGGG~!!!!! MAUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
im not sure what the nuke thing was about but i shall take it as a compliment. ohh and here is another spell i thought of.
i have alot more and am willing to share my ever growing list of spells with anyone who wants them and they are for grabs
I have come up with a non-combat ability that has not been used in anygame to date!
It's called transconstruction! What is means is you contruct a transportation vehicle like at first you make carts but as your level advances you get to make cooler vehicles like chariots and thigns. Of course their is another skill needed! Taming: It involves using items to train your mounts to pull and learn where you want to go. This means that the higher the tamer level the faster and more accurately the mount will work with the vehicles.
Non-Combat Skills I'd like to see actually used in a game:
Bribery - Pay off NPCs to further quests, or to gain benefits in the Citadel
Interrogation - Obtain information from less than willing NPCs
Torture - Break down captured NPCs to improve interrogation (requires the ability to take prisoners)
Blackmail - Use information against NPCs to gain their assistance
Disguise - Get into places you don't belong
Pickpocket - Get quest items or cash from NPCs
Gambling - Increase odds in games of chance
Sleight of Hand - Cheat at games of chance and hope you don't get caught
Jatar
Wow! 4 yes and a maybe!! I'm excited about this game! This is certainly a huge break from other MMOs where non-combat skills = craft skills | useless skills.
Real Gambling with others - sweet!!
Pickpocketing - Not Currently. Well, it's better than no. I hope it can be a future consideration as a non-combat solution to problems like: collect 10 rat tails
, or snag the key from the jailer to bust someone out of prison without having to fight 
.
Hey, these smileys are kinda fun.
so uhh Jatar dp you think that you could use some of my ideas you dont have to worry about me sueing you or anything i just come up with skills that i would like to see in games on my free time
if not then i'll try to find a corner and do this by myself
or this to my imaginary friend
well here's another
Name: Blow
Description: the caster can with this spell cause a great gust to slow enemys or speed himself or perhaps add great length to his jumps
Counter: any shield spell
Hello again!
Some thoughts on the non combat or secondary combat skills:
The ability to combine spells into one effect, could be a skill of sorts, the better it is, the more you can do something like:
1. Fireball @ mob
2. Ground explosion
1 + 2 : explosion upon impact that does AoE damage, and throws nearby mobs and people away from the explosion origin.
Or something more melee Oriented:
1: Poison throwing dagger on the fly
2: Throw at target
Could be combined into throwing poisoned daggers.
And something Non combat related:
Setting up flares in an area to light it up. (or torches, if magnesium flare isnt a possibility)
Purpose being to make it harder for stealthed people to sneak into an area. They would have to put out the Torches via some other way.
A counter to that could be a magical spell to cause it to rain, to put them all out, or cast a water ball at a torch, extinguishing it.
If someone wanted to do so, they could use a secondary combat ability to change the ball of water into Ice, in mid flight. Making it into a dangerous missile!
Dont know if this something that fits, but what if Trap making, for the purpose of catching game animals, for food, or materials,?
And of course, Crafting skills, running the gamut, from tree chopping, down to timber staining, and refining and reforming. Ship beams and masts?
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/333/view/forums/thread/209274
there's what I would like to see.
also some sort of shield that will take up mana when hit to a certain extnt insted of life would be nice for those who decide that they want more mana less life