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Being objective about Darkfall graphics

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  • downtoearthdowntoearth Member Posts: 3,558
    Originally posted by singsofdeath

    Originally posted by Jadar


    So what do we have to judge the game on? A 600+ MB Video. The graphics are about all that we can judge. And yes, they are important. MMO's need to create immersive, believable worlds - worlds people are willing to pay money to play in. What's more, all the griefer's and PK's that follow this game should welcome an inviting game world; it's hard to get your nut off fucking with people if no one else plays the game.
    Besides, it's as absurd to criticize people for judging the games graphics as it is to praise the gameplay of a games you've NEVER played. How do you know the game is "Awesome!!"

     

    Because Tasos said so.



     

    it will be if its in good shape

  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292

    The grahics are not that impressive, for a title that has been in the works for years... but then again this game is supposed to be revolutionary and groundbreaking for GAMEPLAY, not graphics.

    I look at this as a proof of life for this game. It has been basically a 'dead' game for years, with no  information coming out to show that it was real. This is a big step foward to show that this game does exist, and is moving forward.

    What this game needs is a good publisher, to start the process of turnng this into a commercial product (with proper marketing, and exposure). Time will only tell how well this actually works out.

  • boxfetishboxfetish Member Posts: 76
    Originally posted by Jadar


    So what do we have to judge the game on? A 600+ MB Video. The graphics are about all that we can judge. And yes, they are important. MMO's need to create immersive, believable worlds - worlds people are willing to pay money to play in. What's more, all the griefer's and PK's that follow this game should welcome an inviting game world; it's hard to get your nut off fucking with people if no one else plays the game.
    Besides, it's as absurd to criticize people for judging the games graphics as it is to praise the gameplay of a games you've NEVER played. How do you know the game is "Awesome!!"

     

    This post wins the thread. 

  • imbantimbant Member Posts: 1,291
    Originally posted by Aragon100

    Originally posted by imbant

    Originally posted by lotharr


    About graphics and gameplay, doesn't EVE Online have quite good graphics and massive battle at the same time? I've heard of the occasional node crashes, but I've heard of succesful battles in the game, too.



     

    Yea but once you get a fair amount of people together for a fight...it is a complete lag fest.  You get a nice 10 v 10 or 20 v 20 its a lot of fun and runs smooth if your personal hardware is good enough....but some people even have problems with that.

    Go beyond that and you are just out of luck sometimes depending on where you are at.

    Or simply try undocking in the main jita station....and then compare it to undocking in another system.

    im not saying this is caused by its graphics only, this happens in a lot of mmos...but the higher graphics and the more lag you will get.



     

    Hmmm seems EvE failed then where hopefully Darkfall will succeed?

    Having a lagfeast cause of "too" good graphics isnt an option at all if you'd ask me.

    Gameplay always own graphics.

    Have a nice one



     

    Dont get me wrong, EVE is a great game and they do a great job.  But once you get to a certain number of people on the screen at one time, the lag is going to come.   I havent played a game yet that it hasnt.

    So DF has a bold claim that i cant wait to see if they can live up to.

    ~~
    Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009

    Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296

    "The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester

    "If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos

  • javacjavac Member Posts: 1,175
    Originally posted by cukimunga

    Originally posted by javac


    Some point to emphasise:
    1) if you're judging the graphics from youtube without watching the hi-res version, your opinion is pretty worthless.
    2) darkfall's graphics are not instanced in any way, it's a seamless world, with no zoning except for dungeons.
    3) darkfall's graphics were designed for 100v100 battles at playable framerates.
    4) the general standard of Darkfall graphics is very high, they are just let down a bit by *some* poorer quality graphical elements, specifically cannonball explosion effects are pretty ordinary, and some character animations are a bit jerky, eg: dwarves walking down slopes needs tweaking.
    5) certain things, like Darkfall's outdoor environments, sky/clouds, and dynamic shadows are absolutely top-notch, not to mention the amazing wind/weather effects on trees & grass moving, eg: aerdian cat video.
    6) it's still only a low-resolution video of footage taken on medium settings.

    First off you contradicted yourself in points 1 and 2. First saying there is a hi res version and then saying there is only a low resolution version.

    Wrong: zoning is not instancing. i thought everyone knew that.

  • Death1942Death1942 Member UncommonPosts: 2,587
    Originally posted by VoodooHoodoo

    Originally posted by Death1942


    i accept the graphics are a tad crappy due to the tech requirements of the game but seriously...even for such a tech heavy game...they can do better ( and no doubt they will try).  SWG was pretty openworld/big and it managed to have way better graphics than what Darkfall currently has.



     

    You never played 40 vs 40 in SWG combat then.  You could wait 6 seconds for any actions to happen. When was the last time you actually played a large PVP SWG battle? Mine was 2006 on a very decent PC at the time. FPS was not the issue, it was pure bandwidth.

     

    SWG's list of "features":

    Auto target. Check.

    Physics. No check.

    Running up vertical walls. Check.

    Unable to jump something poking 6 inches off the ground. Check.

    Weather system?  HAHAHAHAHA.

    Collision detection? Not unless you mean doors opening when you got close.

    Yes, SWG had better graphics, but it also had a much MUCH more limited engine to run on.

    true but you have to take into account the time of the releases.  SWG came online way back in 03 and Darkfall is set for an 08 release.  i know they are a small team and needed the extra time but sometime in those 5 years they could have re-done models and textures to match or beat an 03 game.

    MMO wish list:

    -Changeable worlds
    -Solid non level based game
    -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads

  • javacjavac Member Posts: 1,175
    Originally posted by lotharr


    About graphics and gameplay, doesn't EVE Online have quite good graphics and massive battle at the same time? I've heard of the occasional node crashes, but I've heard of succesful battles in the game, too.

     

    more than 20v20 in EVE is basically a slideshow, even with effects off and using the original lower quality client. the best large-scale PVP i've seen was DAOC, 100v100 was totally playable with minimal (but noticeable) lag.

  • javacjavac Member Posts: 1,175
    Originally posted by Death1942

    Originally posted by VoodooHoodoo

    Originally posted by Death1942


    i accept the graphics are a tad crappy due to the tech requirements of the game but seriously...even for such a tech heavy game...they can do better ( and no doubt they will try).  SWG was pretty openworld/big and it managed to have way better graphics than what Darkfall currently has.



     

    You never played 40 vs 40 in SWG combat then.  You could wait 6 seconds for any actions to happen. When was the last time you actually played a large PVP SWG battle? Mine was 2006 on a very decent PC at the time. FPS was not the issue, it was pure bandwidth.

     

    SWG's list of "features":

    Auto target. Check.

    Physics. No check.

    Running up vertical walls. Check.

    Unable to jump something poking 6 inches off the ground. Check.

    Weather system?  HAHAHAHAHA.

    Collision detection? Not unless you mean doors opening when you got close.

    Yes, SWG had better graphics, but it also had a much MUCH more limited engine to run on.

    true but you have to take into account the time of the releases.  SWG came online way back in 03 and Darkfall is set for an 08 release.  i know they are a small team and needed the extra time but sometime in those 5 years they could have re-done models and textures to match or beat an 03 game.

    well, Darkfall has always been about the gameplay first and even back in 2003 they were explicit about going for lag-free high-FPS and not shiny-shiny graphics.

     

    second, IMO DF graphics are vastly superior to SWG, i don't even see the comparison.

  • javacjavac Member Posts: 1,175


    Originally posted by quilnar

    daoc is pretty good when it comes to large scale pvp. frame rates in this vid aren't that bad but even here you can see the lag and rubber banding.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkl_fAjmLmA&fmt=6
    i'm curious to see how darkfall will deal with this problem. i doubt scaling down graphics alone would solve it especially with twitch based combat.


    Darkfall uses server clustering and dynamic resizing and load balancing of (virtual) zones, that is, as the number of players in an area increases, the Darkfall server tech splits the (vitual) zone into smaller and smaller pieces and re-distributes them over more machines in the cluster. more info here.



    i'll reserve judgement on the graphics because they weren't at full as some of you say but i do wonder why they didn't record this highly anticipated video in better quality.


    they said they wanted to show a truthful snapshot of the game, you can choose to believe that or not according to how much you choose to trust Tasos.

    it's clear they don't have anti-aliasing on in the video, which certainly does suggest a medium quality setting.

  • quilnarquilnar Member Posts: 3

    thanks for the info, javac. i hope it'll be enough to provide smooth combat but forgive me if i remain skeptical. i will be giving this game a try so i guess i'll see for myself when the time comes.

  • BlodplsBlodpls Member Posts: 1,454

    First minute of this sums up graphics whiners quite well: www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/203-Braid

  • javacjavac Member Posts: 1,175
    Originally posted by Blodpls


    First minute of this sums up graphics whiners quite well: www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/203-Braid

     

    yep, 100% spot on.

  • imbantimbant Member Posts: 1,291
    Originally posted by Blodpls


    First minute of this sums up graphics whiners quite well: www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/203-Braid



     

    I love this guy, but i hadnt seen that one till now, well done sir.  In fact its going in the sig.

    Also, good job mods for deleting the troll posts in this forum (look at the front page as of this time).  Nice to see we are getting some moderation love.

    ~~
    Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009

    Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296

    "The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester

    "If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos

  • KhaelSUNKhaelSUN Member Posts: 394


    Originally posted by Jadar
    So what do we have to judge the game on? A 600+ MB Video. The graphics are about all that we can judge. And yes, they are important. MMO's need to create immersive, believable worlds - worlds people are willing to pay money to play in. What's more, all the griefer's and PK's that follow this game should welcome an inviting game world; it's hard to get your nut off fucking with people if no one else plays the game.

    Besides, it's as absurd to criticize people for judging the games graphics as it is to praise the gameplay of a games you've NEVER played. How do you know the game is "Awesome!!"


    uhm graphics is soon forgotten when you play. personally i absolutely adore DF graphics though - i really dig the artstyle, and even if some explosions or animations look abit akward, it just gives me this nice old-school feeling.

    The thing that makes it a believeable world is no instances and full loot, the huge amount of spells/skills and items that makes every person different, and the sandbox model, that gives you freedom to do whatever you want, without guiding you along a certain path and holding your hand all the way.

    you are not restricted by instances or invisible walls that prevent you from attacking whomever you want. players will make societies and make up their own rules to protect themselves, politics will create kingdoms and break them.

    these things are BY FAR much more important when talking about creating a believeable world that you want to immerse yourself in.

    image

    Khael[SUN]
    SUN - peekayin since pong
    Webdeveloper on:
    http://www.guildofsun.com
    http://www.bloodmonarchy.com

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247

    vanguard graphics are terrible, everything is so ugly. AOC graphics are high quality but the artistic side of the game is pretty terrible. WAR graphics are low quality but artistically are better than AOC and it runs decently in large scale RvR.

    I'm not going to judge darkfall until I see it in action in person but the graphics looked very uneven like it was shot from different phases of beta or like some of the older models aren't as good as the newer ones.

    I still think the game is a complete failure at release though~ I hope I'm wrong but it has been too long in development at this point for me to have faith in it.

  • daveainsdaveains Member Posts: 37
    Originally posted by javac


    Some point to emphasise:
     
    1) if you're judging the graphics from youtube without watching the hi-res version, your opinion is pretty worthless.
    2) darkfall's graphics are not instanced in any way, it's a seamless world, with no zoning except for dungeons.
    3) darkfall's graphics were designed for 100v100 battles at playable framerates.
    4) the general standard of Darkfall graphics is very high, they are just let down a bit by *some* poorer quality graphical elements, specifically cannonball explosion effects are pretty ordinary, and some character animations are a bit jerky, eg: dwarves walking down slopes needs tweaking.
    5) certain things, like Darkfall's outdoor environments, sky/clouds, and dynamic shadows are absolutely top-notch, not to mention the amazing wind/weather effects on trees & grass moving, eg: aerdian cat video.
    6) it's still only a low-resolution video of footage taken on medium settings.
     
     

    Just to back up your points, this is from Tasos in the previous dev diary:

    "We’re talking about a long 100% in-game pure gameplay trailer with no scripting, no simulation, no post-processing. It’s us play-testing while fraps is running on free cameras and playercams and all the footage was collected and edited. The scenarios for it had to be run as part of our testing and development schedule as they came up." So, this footage is from development and development play testing.

    To all who are upset about the quality, let's make this clear. This is what they've collected up while they've been working on the game and testing out the features. So you've got any number of game builds in here, which means you can't tell anything about what the current version looks like or does.

    I also note that it looks like low-res captures to keep frames up - FRAPS is hard on the machine while it's recording. I had to go down from 1280x1024 high quality to 800x600 low quality to keep frames playable when I used FRAPS before.

    So I'm guessing a buttload of the graphics options are turned off on the recording machines as well.

    All of which means, this isn't what the game would really look like if you ran it right now.

    Edit: I retract all of the above. On the official website:

    "We've released an extensive Darkfall Online gameplay trailer which shows a multitude of Darkfall's unique features in action."

    So this is how the game actually looks right now. Beats me how they can say that, when the previous battle video showed a wizard taking a massive chunk out of a warship with a fireball, and here ships take no visible damage, just sink?? weird.

     

  • downtoearthdowntoearth Member Posts: 3,558

    yea im sure there huge diffrences between settings. too

  • daveainsdaveains Member Posts: 37
    Originally posted by lotharr


    About graphics and gameplay, doesn't EVE Online have quite good graphics and massive battle at the same time? I've heard of the occasional node crashes, but I've heard of succesful battles in the game, too.

     

    Not to go too far off-topic, but actually, no. You need to make that "constant" node crashes. Guilds were (and still are AFAIK) completely able to crash nodes at will, just by jumping enough ships in.

    As far as massive battles, no again. You could get 100 ships at a time in the same place and not have the NODE crash, but the PLAYERS were a completely different story. You get frozen in time, hoping that the weapons you clicked would actually fire before you were dead. It's really pathetic, considering how you thought you'd be all space battle cool and stuff.

     

  • Plasuma!!!Plasuma!!! Member Posts: 1,872

    Darkfall has graphics comparable to Morrowind at best...

    However, I still play Morrowind while it's "graphical superior", Oblivion, is nothing more than a fancy coaster on which I rest my coffee mug.

    So really, I'm not complaining.

    Just be nice to Darkfall's graphics, because denizens of the uncanny valley have feelings too.

  • javacjavac Member Posts: 1,175

    criticising Darkfall's graphics is like saying a Ferrari isn't red enough.

  • imbantimbant Member Posts: 1,291
    Originally posted by javac


    criticising Darkfall's graphics is like saying a Ferrari isn't red enough.



     

    This.

    Sorry DF is a game you aren't following, but that is no reason to make flat out lies about the game to discredit it from others who may not want to play another linear MMO.

    Darkfall's graphics are fine, and some of the landscapes are simply amazing.  The animations need some work but if thats what it takes to accomplish massive battles where other games have failed, then so be it.  Even if that is not the case, they can be fixed later and are not so bad that they detract from the breathe of fresh air that this game will bring to the genre in regards to gameplay.

     

    ~~
    Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009

    Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296

    "The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester

    "If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos

  • Elray2120Elray2120 Member Posts: 16
    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    Originally posted by javac


    criticising Darkfall's graphics is like saying a Ferrari isn't red enough.



     

     Ferrraris don't look like 1974 Ford Pintos

     

    How can you make that comparison?  A car can look great and run great, a MMO without instances and with largescale battles cannot look like an instanced MMO and get the same performance.

  • claudiofmclaudiofm Member Posts: 81
    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Originally posted by SignusM

    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    Originally posted by javac


    3) darkfall's graphics were designed for 100v100 battles at playable framerates.
    6) it's still only a low-resolution video of footage taken on medium settings.
     
     



     

    100 vs 100 battles at decent framerates across the internet even on the lowest graphics setings is going to be a hell of a trick.  Shadowbane can't do it and their client was designed to run on a pentium III 1.2ghz and a 64 Mb openGL  compliant video card minimum.  Then again SB's horrid avatar graphics and animations are better than the ones seen in the Darkfall video. So far.

    Sorry but Lineage II has had 500+ player battles since 2003. It's very possible and has already been done successfully. Darkfall should have no problem at all having 200+ player battles with the level of graphics we've seen in the videos to date. Just because some of your personal favorite games haven't been able to pull it off is far from "it can't be done".

     

    Bren

     

    And it's been done by Dark Age of Camelot as well. Though when you got to full 400 some people on screen it started to lag something awful. The MAIN issue is not JUSt the graphics, but the fact that combat is twitch based, not turn based, so lag is a really dangerous enemy here. With collision detection, physics (horse charges, knockback, spell knockback), twitch FPS style combat with real arrow balistics, AND 200+ people, then you really have to make some graphical compromises.

    I realize that but what I'm trying to say is with the level of graphics that DF has having 200+ player battle shouldn't be that hard to pull of if a main stream MMO can do 500+ with equal or even slightly better graphics. The compromise in this case is the numbers not the graphics.

     

    Bren

     

    lineage2

    this is lienage2 siege and pvp

    www.youtube.com/watch

    you

    darkfall siege and pvp

    www.youtube.com/watch

    if for you, is the same, you are

     

    Darkfall graphics charecter compared with other games

    lotro

    wow

    lineage2

    aoc

    warhammer

    DARKFALL

     

    if someone said that the graphics are bad, this

     

  • gothagotha Member UncommonPosts: 1,074
    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    Originally posted by javac


    3) darkfall's graphics were designed for 100v100 battles at playable framerates.
    6) it's still only a low-resolution video of footage taken on medium settings.
     
     



     

    100 vs 100 battles at decent framerates across the internet even on the lowest graphics setings is going to be a hell of a trick.  Shadowbane can't do it and their client was designed to run on a pentium III 1.2ghz and a 64 Mb openGL  compliant video card minimum.  Then again SB's horrid avatar graphics and animations are better than the ones seen in the Darkfall video. So far.



    Sb graphics are nothing compared to this.  That statement is just utterly false.

  • imbantimbant Member Posts: 1,291
    Originally posted by gotha

    Originally posted by zymurgeist

    Originally posted by javac


    3) darkfall's graphics were designed for 100v100 battles at playable framerates.
    6) it's still only a low-resolution video of footage taken on medium settings.
     
     



     

    100 vs 100 battles at decent framerates across the internet even on the lowest graphics setings is going to be a hell of a trick.  Shadowbane can't do it and their client was designed to run on a pentium III 1.2ghz and a 64 Mb openGL  compliant video card minimum.  Then again SB's horrid avatar graphics and animations are better than the ones seen in the Darkfall video. So far.



    Sb graphics are nothing compared to this.  That statement is just utterly false.



     

    Yep zymurgeist is a well known troll for DF, no one really takes his posts seriously anymore and most just ignore him at this point.

    The whole SB or eq1 argument has been PROVEN false over and over.  DF graphics are on par with industry standards, but are obviously not breaking new ground or the best of the best.   Unfortunatly now that the video released and beta is closing in, the trolls know they dont have much time left to bash the game, so they are just getting their last shots in while they can.  Though im not sure why they think they are actually convincing anyone that the graphics suck and are like eq1...i mean even complete newcommers to DF have eyes....its not that hard.

    ~~
    Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009

    Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296

    "The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester

    "If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos

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