Why do people enjoy long level grinds?

Abrahmm · September 2008

I can't understand this for the life of me. I see a common complaint about games like WoW and a lot of new games releasing that you level too fast. WHAT? I don't understand this at all.

For me, leveling is my absolute least favorite part of ANY game I've played for many reasons.

1) The fun stuff is usually at the end. I hate having to be dragged through a long leveling session just so I can start having fun at end game.

2) If my friends are higher/max level, I am left behind. At this point, all I want to do is level as fast as I can to catch up. A long level grind just makes this a grueling task.

3) Long level grinds waste so much of your time with trivial accomplishments that will have no bearing on your character once they are a couple levels higher(I suppose this is more of a gripe with levels in general, but long grinds make it more of a time waster).

4) I hate running around feeling like a gimp that can't do anything "above my level range". A long grind just makes it take longer to de-gimp myself.

5) Boring boring boring. All you are doing is the same dull boring mob killing or unoriginal quest running over and over again. Its not even fun after a while, but your doing it to get to the end.(Thanks to Gillvane1 for the reminder)

Honestly, I can't understand why games don't employ a fairly short level grind and then concentrate on filling the game with a LOT of end game content. People complain that WoW's grind is too easy, but I disagree. I think that 1-60 is perfect right now, but 61-70 is just a pain in the ass. I would much rather play a game that allowed me to get to max level fairly quickly, but had extremely more content at end game(Guild Wars was good about this post prophecies.)

So can anyone tell me what is good about a long level grind?(besides wasting your time). I know leveling is supposed to allow you to learn your character and class better, but there is no reason why you can't learn some while you level, and continue learning while you are max level.

gillvane1 · September 2008

I don't like long level grinds either. I usually get bored about half way, because by this point you have to Grind a LOT of quests or a LOT of mobs to make any progress, and you don't get anything besides plus 1.

Look at these spells in EQ. By about level 40 you've got most of the cool stuff. Pretty soon, it's just the same old stuff, but plus 1.

Kyntor · September 2008

People are different. Personally, I have always enjoyed the exploring and character progression aspects of MMORPGs. Once I get to the point that my avatar can no longer progress (except maybe by equipment), I start to lose interest in the game. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy endgame content. However, after doing the same instance, battleground, or defending the same piece of real estate over and over again I start to become bored out of my mind.

My gaming roots are firmly entrenched in RPGs. I have played a few FPSs, but my first love has always been the RPG. The current trend to do away with all avatar building worries me a little. I hope they don't turn all MMORPGs into MMOFPSs.

Dreathor · September 2008

I think people enjoy the insanely long level grinds (those that last at least 6 months of frequent play) as it's very fulfilling to achieve it. Added to that, you establish strong friendships/guilds along the way which keeps you 'addicted', TBH the social aspect of MMOs is what keeps people playing.

I've played a game like this myself for over a year and the sole reason I stuck at it was beacuse it was fun to play as a group of friends achieving the un-achievable together.

Edit: Plus, these games usually have very attractive "end-game" PvP content (in my case, I played Knight Online a long time ago when it was in its prime- insane group pvp) which keeps people grinding to reach it.

Samuraisword · September 2008

The fun stuff for you is at the end of a game, and for most games that equates to raiding, which I clearly don't like, and is more of a grind than the leveling process.

The leveling process is combined with exploring the game world, learning the lore and mechanics of the game, meeting and befriending other players, and building a reputation for yourself, so to me it is the most enjoyable part and the reason I play MMOGS at all. Having that last longer thru a difficult to level process is more fun for me.

Rehmes · September 2008

I said it in another thread but part of the problem is that people want to race through levels to reach end content without taking the time to explore and have adventures with their friends. Everyone is in a rush to get to the top.

The other part of the problem is developers basically catering only to the end-game rather than trying to make the progression a good experience where there is something cool to do at any stage of your career.

Too many MMOs concentrate on guiding players through a little themepark-styled path and i think thats what drives players to race to the top without considering that there may be other things to do, and thats usually because they really dont have a choice.

Grind is also a matter of perspective imo. having played L2 for years i know the leveling is though and the penalty for death even tougher and i cant remember having a better experience leveling in any other game, the reason for that is that i found a cool group of people to level with and form a clan with. So for me the experience of going through dangerous catacombs or higher level fields was an adventure (L2s map is huge).

Thats the reason i prefer sandbox games, not because they are less grindy (imo they are just as or even more grindy than level based games) but rather the fact that they give you the freedom to explore and take your time to do different things so you dont feel the need to rush to the top.

Having a mentor system implemented in every game would b awesome too since i feel you on the fact that if your friends are maxed out and your left behind it becomes a pressure to get there too. with a mentor system at least you can still party with them and level.

Sry for Wall of Text

CyBloodreign · September 2008

long grinding is what a company does when they end game has nothing to offer ie. WoW.(only using Wow cause that is what most mmoers know). At end of wow lvl grinding there is an even longer never ending quest for pvp rewards. And just when you get the best gear; Blizz puts out new armour that makes yours noncompetive. Power lvlers also like long grinds because that makes them more Uber faster, as they hit max anything before normal players. And lets not forget the gold farmers.

But really a rpg game is where the journey is supposed to be the most memorial aspet; not how fast you got there.(same as in life) This is helped no matter how long it takes if the content is engaging. It could take me a year to get max lvl as long as I am having fun with it. But now adays lazy developers just recolor textures and change names of them and call it new content. I would suggest trying a game like warhammer online (it has a grind all games do ) but it goes pretty fast and you can lvl by pvping from the start. I actully lvled one guy from lvl 1-16 only pvping (so it did not feel grindy)

But all mmorpg games have grinding whether its killing mobs, doing quest , or baking cakes (UMMcake)

Czzarre · September 2008

I really think its comes down to the attitude of some players just enjoy the journey and not the destination

Flyte27 · September 2008

I am not a big fan of endgame myself. They call it endgame because it's the end of the game. There is no more progression other then through long grinds for very small equipment upgrades. Generally these come through repeating the same area over and over again at nausium.

I know that some people like this because they like the interaction with thier friends, but for me I generally all play with small groups of people and not consistently. Generally I like to solo around 70 to 80% and then do small groups on occasion 20%. WoW works out well for me in this category.

As said for me it's the journey thats fun for me and not the destination. I enjoy going do all the different areas in the game and playing through as all the different classes. During the leveling proccess your character gains many new abilities/items, explores a lot of different places, and you have a lot of different experiences. I enjoy that constant change/character development and exploration of new areas. Thats my favorite part of MMOs.

For me raiding is just boring as I don't have the patience or desire to interact with a large group of people (over a large period of time) for very little reward, character develoment, or exploration of new places.

Abrahmm · September 2008

Originally posted by Samuraisword

The fun stuff for you is at the end of a game, and for most games that equates to raiding, which I clearly don't like, and is more of a grind than the leveling process.
The leveling process is combined with exploring the game world, learning the lore and mechanics of the game, meeting and befriending other players, and building a reputation for yourself, so to me it is the most enjoyable part and the reason I play MMOGS at all. Having that last longer thru a difficult to level process is more fun for me.

I'm not a huge fan of raiding, more a PvP person myself. But still, why can't the things listed in your second paragraph be done after you are at max level? Why do you have to do all of your exploring while you are leveling up instead of when you are at max level?

dterry · September 2008

People probably enjoy level grinds because they are familiar to them. That concept goes all the way back to D&D (if you played with a bunch of people who were more into hack and slash). Either that or they just don't know better. Nowadays I am starting to fantasize about perma-death, sandbox, limited (if any) levels, player created items/world with degredation, etc. Honestly... make a game more and more like real life.

psychorob68 · September 2008

I dont think its really enjoying lvl grinds so much as what seems to be lacking alot of late, a sence of accomplishment.

mxo_cosa · September 2008

I think that for a game like World of Warcraft the time spendt leveling should indeed be short because of its content not realy starting until your max level. I also think this is a totaly wrong approuch to a game like a MMO where you play in a persistant world. I think half the fun of MMOs is increasing my characters skill and potential. If I wanted a character who had reached his maximum potential I could play any multiplayer FPS out there.

I personaly belive a MMO should have no such thing as endgame. Where you spend all your game time making your character better and not only through gear. It's also important that theres content through the entier "level range" of the game.

As you said the fun stuff is usualy in the end. This is the major problem with most MMOs today. I think Warhammer Online is doing a decent job here trying to bring content to all lvls throug "tiers", but i belive they could have extended the amount of content and the time required to reach max level even more.

So far the MMO which have done the best job at it (In my oppinion) is EVE online. Ive only just started playing and being "months" away from what can be called the "end game" of EVE, Im still able to have fun by doing missions with my friends and even PvPing as long as we gang up with each other.

Talking about PvP another problem I see in most MMOs that makes reaching max lvl such an important goal is that even 100s of new players can't kill someone who have reached max level. Of course you should be more powerful than a newly created character but you should also have trouble dealing with a lot of them charging you at once.

Having fun through the entire game while at the same time experiencing progress for your character is the key elements to a good MMORPG and what makes them diffrent from most other competive games, again in my oppinion.

This got a bit long but I think it was needed to show why I think fast leveling is just right for a game like World of Warcraft, but not right for MMOs in general.

dsulli1410 · September 2008

Level grinding kills your brain....

Briansho · September 2008

Doesn't doing the same thing over and over expecting different results cause insanity???

Abrahmm · September 2008

Originally posted by mxo_cosa

I think that for a game like World of Warcraft the time spendt leveling should indeed be short because of its content not realy starting until your max level. I also think this is a totaly wrong approuch to a game like a MMO where you play in a persistant world. I think half the fun of MMOs is increasing my characters skill and potential. If I wanted a character who had reached his maximum potential I could play any multiplayer FPS out there.
I personaly belive a MMO should have no such thing as endgame. Where you spend all your game time making your character better and not only through gear. It's also important that theres content through the entier "level range" of the game.
As you said the fun stuff is usualy in the end. This is the major problem with most MMOs today. I think Warhammer Online is doing a decent job here trying to bring content to all lvls throug "tiers", but i belive they could have extended the amount of content and the time required to reach max level even more.
So far the MMO which have done the best job at it (In my oppinion) is EVE online. Ive only just started playing and being "months" away from what can be called the "end game" of EVE, Im still able to have fun by doing missions with my friends and even PvPing as long as we gang up with each other.
Talking about PvP another problem I see in most MMOs that makes reaching max lvl such an important goal is that even 100s of new players can't kill someone who have reached max level. Of course you should be more powerful than a newly created character but you should also have trouble dealing with a lot of them charging you at once.
Having fun through the entire game while at the same time experiencing progress for your character is the key elements to a good MMORPG and what makes them diffrent from most other competive games, again in my oppinion.
This got a bit long but I think it was needed to show why I think fast leveling is just right for a game like World of Warcraft, but not right for MMOs in general.

You make some good points, and I agree with some of it. I think I would rather have a different style of "leveling" all together. I agree I do like the way Eve works in some reguard. Here is what I would like to see...

I want to see No levels. I want to see a system where the ability for your character to be viable in any part of the world is fairly short, but once viable there are always options to improve your character.

This would allow people to be able to participate in everything in the game world relatively quickly, but also allow for long term character advancement.

Just my thoughts.

iZakaroN · September 2008

Just one reason: you become more involved and familiar with the game world...

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