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Steefel oversteps his bounds
openedge1
Member Posts: 2,582
Seems an interview was done this past week with Mr. Steefel on LOTRO, and several things have been said that could upset many a player of LOTRO
1. Steefel feels LOTRO could be as big as if not the one to take the crown from WoW
Those are fighting words, and no indications exists that show it can do this right now. He uses the movie as an example of advertising, yet it is still 2 years down the road...
2. Change to the payment model of 14.99 a month
How does the Lifetimer feel about this if they go to Free to play with cash shop or other methods. I knew the Lifetime payment plan would burn some people eventually.
3. LOTRO is the game being discussed as a console port of some sort
How does the Lorist feel about an Xbox live crowd playing their game?
Thoughts on this? Is Steefel crazy?
Comments
Sigh, this is a bit of an attempt to make something more-so than it is.
What was actually said:
for number 1: "There's another level of success, which is reaching a certain mass-market critical mass, which to be totally fair, only Blizzard has achieved completely so far. We think that we are the game that has the most likelihood of being the second to do that, but we're not there yet."
for number 2: "This is a franchise that's going to continue for years and years and years, and there's no way that the singular, monolithic, USD 14.95 a month subscription model is going to last for years and years and years all by itself... it has to change."
for number 3: "we're talking right now about taking games and putting them on console, or building games specifically for console."
Mountain out of a mole hill, relax OP!
First who cares if tomorrow they made the game free. I have two lifetime accounts, only for six months now. Would I complain if Turbine made the game free, I would be a bit disappointed but so what. Of course many would complain, but you know if you're so worried about $200 you shouldn't be wasting time in an MMO.
I believe and hope Turbine will implement a friends system where if you get friends to join you both get extra experience and the ability to summon them. Also be nice to see a mount thrown in.
If MoM is as good as Turbine has been hinting at and they implement a 'friends' system like WoW, LOTRO could start to make major gains on WoW.
I go on record, Tubrine won't do away with the monthly fee any time soon.
I have to say, that is definately completely different from what the OP posted - interesting to see how people perceive things so differently to what was actually stated.
Some people love drama. Springer is old, and so they have to create or cause it themselves. If you think this is bad, it has caused a large amount of jibber on the general mmo forum. This is an interview about the future, not some power crazed rant. At any rate, the cost of MMO's is going to increase as inflation does. MMO's started at about 2.95 USD after all.
As a lifetime subscriber F2P of any sort would really piss me off...not because I've already paid (because I've already got my money's worth)...but because F2P games suck. It transforms it from a game into a money sink where people who really aren't interested in "gaming" buy all the cool features (ie. micro-transaction assumption).
It would turn LotRO from a game full of dedicated, lore luvin' gamers into a game full of asshats who barely know how to play the game...IMO.
what does it matter if it is on the xbo360 or ps3 both can use a keyboard and mouse and you woould probably never now it unless someone told you they were on one.
And they are a company tring to make money if you do not like the product stop buying simple as that.
I have to say, that is definately completely different from what the OP posted - interesting to see how people perceive things so differently to what was actually stated.
Actually the comments are from the posted article here
Eurogamer synopsis
And as the previous poster noted the wording, lets look at some other lines of value...
Steefel states...
"We think that we are the game that has the most likelihood of being the second to do that, but we're not there yet."
Yet, goes on to say
"It's a challenge, but we're confident that we can get there, especially with something of this broad appeal and high quality."
So, yes, for #1, he thinks he can match or beat WoW! Those are some big statements.
#2 Actually can be much worse...
He goes on to state
"For people that want to have a more casual relationship with the game, and just have fun a couple of hours, a couple of times a week, right now I think we have a difficult value proposition. They're paying a premium price to get a whole bunch more than they actually want. So, maybe there's room to satisfy those people in a slightly different way."
So, if you are a lifetimer, you pay that full price, but play 10 -20 hours a month. Lets say they reduce to 10-20 hours a month for 5 bucks. Do you as the lifetime payee feel you got the best deal then?
Then for #3
"we're talking right now about taking games and putting them on console, or building games specifically for console"
This ends up being the only questionable material, as the author of the Eurogamer article specifically pulled LOTRO out of the conversation, but I do not see it when reading in depth...
But, the main point remains a biggie...
By stating these things the way that Steefel has, it's already grabbed some blogger attention also. Was it all in the plan to advertise MoM finally?
Tobold suggests Steefel is smoking too much pipeweed
"And as I don't have subscription numbers and can only "measure" the MMO blog buzz about LotRO, I must say that I think I'm not the only one with that attitude. The Mines of Moria will just get buried under WAR and WotLK."
Seems the feeling is overall that LOTRO cannot make it in the dog eat dog world of MMOs to be such a huge success as they think.
Is it possible that LOTRO could get a million players? Can LOTRO be bigger than WAR?
You add more to his quotes than is there. You also fail to realize that he:
1: did not state he was going to trump WoW
2: did not say what monitary changes were in plan an when
3: no one really cares if consoles get to play the game.
This is really not worth the arguement however, as you have your mind bent on some strange perspective. Have fun with it mate; and may your ranting free you of this built up frustration of who knows what.
I believe more than anything that the real reason behind WoW's success was the overall timing of it. A fresh mmo in a stale gaming scene. A game that anyone from 5 years old to 50 can play. A huge advertising campaign including plastering it all over Battlenet. Yeah.. the timing was undeniably perfect. and set them up for life. Now thx to that they have enough cash to buy every other mmo out there. I sometimes wonder where the monopoly laws from long ago went to.. then I remember bill gates and microsoft and realize it's been going on for quite some time lol. Eh.. a little bit of a tangent so I'll stop now.
P.S. The gaming scene is still stale btw.
But, who said we were arguing, I thought this was a discussion. And because I am discussing an interview, I am ranting? Do you even understand the word "rant"?
As well, I am not the only one to think this, based on the Eurogamer writer, and several blogs (and the MANY commenters of that blog) believe Steefel is reaching also is all. For example...
LOTRO Nonsense
"Jeffery Steefel over at Turbine says LotRO is going to be the next World of Warcraft, due to the Hobbit movie and the upcoming Mines of Moria expansion. Now, maybe Mines of Moria is going to be a blockbuster expnasion, introducing hitherto unseen elements into LotRO. Like fun, perhaps."
Codemasters did this, and got burned for it. Does Steefel think LOTRO is such a hot property that people will buy it in droves?
dear god if they went item-mall.....
look turbine boned us all when they ditched the idea of Middle-Earth online, but LOTRO isnt too bad.
if anything I enjoy their art direction and raid direction of the game, but to turn lotro into an item mall would be a big big big big mistake.
The only true reason i will be playing this game for years on and off (because end game raids are fun fun fun) is because its in the middle-earth universe.
I play all ghame
But, who said we were arguing, I thought this was a discussion. And because I am discussing an interview, I am ranting? Do you even understand the word "rant"?
As well, I am not the only one to think this, based on the Eurogamer writer, and several blogs (and the MANY commenters of that blog) believe Steefel is reaching also is all. For example...
LOTRO Nonsense
"Jeffery Steefel over at Turbine says LotRO is going to be the next World of Warcraft, due to the Hobbit movie and the upcoming Mines of Moria expansion. Now, maybe Mines of Moria is going to be a blockbuster expnasion, introducing hitherto unseen elements into LotRO. Like fun, perhaps."
Codemasters did this, and got burned for it. Does Steefel think LOTRO is such a hot property that people will buy it in droves?
idk maybe he thinks that by saying S*** like that people will think its "hot property" then buy it in droves?
I always thought he gave dumb interviews anyways, he always looks a little drugged up
I play all ghame
------
What is he saying that he would be the second to do?
-Reach a mass-market critical mass.
Are there any other MMOs that have reached "mass-market critical mass"?
-According to him it is at the moment only Blizzard that have made that yet.
------
That is what he says.
He never says what he considers to be mass-market nor does he define what a critical mass would be.
So.
What is "mass-market critical mass"?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
------
What is he saying that he would be the second to do?
-Reach a mass-market critical mass.
Are there any other MMOs that have reached "mass-market critical mass"?
-According to him it is at the moment only Blizzard that have made that yet.
------
That is what he says.
He never says what he considers to be mass-market nor does he define what a critical mass would be.
So.
What is "mass-market critical mass"?
This is a good question. We need to really dig deep into his beliefs and if he really believes LOTRO can be AS big as WoW or just a major success, which i do not disagree with.
The wording right now is suspect is all.
Before the movies the LoTR franchise was never viewed as a cash cow. Here we are a few years after them, and some people get the idea that because the movies were huge that everything LoTR should be as well. The fact of the matter is that the middle earth theme and story only appeal to certain people. The movies appealed to the general audience because of the direction and the specific book series itself, outside of the fellowship LoTR is less appealing as its less mature in content and was made by Tolkien specifically to inspire children to conquer their fears.
As adults we tend to grow out of the rose colored glasses and view things more realistically. The war against the armies of Sauron was the driving force behind the success of the trilogy. Had they released The Hobbit first, there may have never been a trilogy movie at all. People in their twenties today for the most part grew up without LoTR, and instead we had Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, D&D, and the Warhammer universes. I had watched an animated version of The Hobbit in school, but I had no idea what LoTR was until the movies.
If SWG has proved anything, its that a franchise brand alone is not enough to build a massively successful MMO with. A game that can catch or surpass WoW will do so because the Warcraft franchise has become stale, and they offer something new. LoTRO offers basically nothing new for a current WoW player, and in ways it even offers less. LoTRO's pvp system is even less entertaining in the long run than WoW's. It's limited by forced pve-type content and the need to get large raids to take on a full level 50 freep party, not to mention it only has one zone at the moment.
Mines of Moria offers new content in the form of lore but as far as I know there is no attention grabbing feature that is going to grab casual gamers in to play. It's unlikely that it could pull in people who aren't currently PC gamers due to the specs required to play(a large reason why WoW was able to capatilize) and total lack of exposure. Giving the game an item mall however would be a move on the level of epic fail that only SoE has ever known. Drive away your current subscribers due to the model of business, drive away the loyalists when the millions of f2p kids infest the land and destroy the immersion, and lastly fade into mediocrity along with the majority of asian f2p mmo's.
I believe their best bet to get a larger following would be developing a Zelda styled console mmo using the current IP license. This would mean spending more money of course, but if they used their current engine and gameworld mixed with gameplay function tweaks it could be cheap and get a big bang for the buck. In the end its all about offering gamers something fresh, a new story is good, new classes and zones are fine, but there need to be more fresh and unique elements if a game truly expects to be able to contend on a million subscription level.
LOL this thread should be called "Openedge1 oversteps his bounds"!
Now nobody can argue about what he really is on theese forums!
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
I think what Steefel has to say about adding Runekeepers more interesting than anything else...
"We're slowly trying new things; the addition of the Rune-Keeper in Moria, a straightforward magic using class, is a pretty big step in that respect. It's not something that a pure Tolkien lore person would accept, it just couldn't exist in Middle-Earth. On the other hand, this is an RPG, it must exist."
BUT TURBINE IS ADDING IT! BRAVO! That is absolutely hilarious... selling out to the generic fantasy crowd... Really, how can any fan of the lore even begin to accept something like this... what's next? Guns? Only going to get worse from here.
Also, imo, even though it would be an epic failure to Turbine's integrity... I bet if they went F2P with an item mall and released a console port, the game would make TONS more than it is now. F2P games are garbage, but that doesn't mean they don't make a shitload of money.
Look at how many F2P are in the top lists at Xfire? I do agree with that sentiment. Money CAN be made there, but the PvP has to be changed to allow more competitive players also (especially for Xbox players if they go Console)
I know these are all moves to make money. The lifetime deal was a cool move, yet it has to hurt the Turbine bottom line.
I really think this discussion perked up some ears on the net and started some wide discussion. But, is it good or bad? Is Turbine on the hype machine now like Funcom and Mythic have been?
#1: Steefel does not say he thinks LOTRO will overcome WoW. What he said was that WoW is the only MMO to date to achieve critical mass. MMO's are social games, and within the context of sociodynamics critical mass means sufficient momentum is achieved where it becomes self-sustaining and continues to grow based on that momentum. WoW has done this by slick marketing but mostly word-of-mouth. "Everyone" plays WoW, "everyone" has heard of WoW, it's the "in" thing. That's what Steefel is hoping for, that between the game itself, the movie marketing, etc. that LOTRO will gain its own critical mass for its own growth and success. At no point is Steefel laying out numbers or saying LOTRO will "beat" WoW, WAR, or anything else. He's just wanting it to gain a self-sustaining growth.
#2: Like it or not, the subscription model's days are probably numbered. That doesn't mean it's going to happen in the immediate future, and that also doesn't mean the only other alternative is the F2P+Item Mall model. 15 years ago I was paying hourly to play what became MMO's. In the present I'm paying monthly. 15 years in the future, I suspect I'll be paying on a different model.
Stuff like this is what I was referring to when I commented on Darren's thread about your tendencies to come to these forums and put up material in an intentionally provocative manner.
I will assume I know you, and you just happen to be using a different name here...
Anyways, lets me get to your comments.
#1. How does one attain "mass market MMO success"? By either matching or overtaking the champion of this genre. I am not the only one who feels Turbine is over reaching..
Tobold
"But step 3, market dominance, seems to be totally out of reach for LotRO. Even with the Mines of Moria expansion and The Hobbit movie."
It does not matter that I wrote this, it is an overall opinion of others.
The words are not spoken, but the implications are wide reaching. By making such statements (like Codemasters Million Subscriber mark) is where the issue of language applies. You read it as he was not saying market dominance like WoW, but to reach mass market appeal, you have to get pretty darn close.
Is EQ a part of national phenomena like WoW? Do you see TV shows or commercials touting EQ? No. Thus, EQ with such a larger legacy in the MMO space cannot reach that mass market. Yet Steefel is quoting LOTRO can.
This is not just about sales. This is about becoming part of culture...mass market, and critical success...which calls to mind Stargate episodes talking about WoW..
Thats mass market.
#2. I agree, as I believe we have in the past (if you are who I think you are) that the current monthly model may not work for much longer. The Asian markets model of pay by the hour or F2P with cash shop is going to move the payment model into a different direction.
As to provocative. I see no issue with calling out something being said that could have wide implications such as what is being said by Steefel.
Want to read provocative...try this...
Tobold again says "Well, he (Steefel) sure could use some better marketing, but I don't think he'll even reach Warhammer's numbers just with that."
or
Ardwulf - "Now, maybe Mines of Moria is going to be a blockbuster expansion, introducing hitherto unseen elements into LotRO. Like fun, perhaps."
I am pretty tame....
Cheers.
I don't believe this game will ever go F2P, but what they might do is have like a 4.99/mo model in which you would then pay a bit extra for the free content updates. It seems this is something they want to do for casual gamers without as much time on there hands. Or they might chagre a small fee for access, like 4.99/mo for 30hrs of play. Something like that.
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Brandywine Global LFF chan "/joinchannel glff"
Changing the paying model doesn't mean that it's going to be F2P with item mall, GW is F2P and don't have item mall, isn't it? Well maybe they are thinking in a new system to reduce the use of huge servers, like a peer-to-peer system, who knows...
This is truly what I imagine, and I think would be the most awesome move.
This would be innovative for Western audiences who like to play casually, and could be a major money maker overall for Turbine.
I imagine this more than the GW model of pay once, play forever.
GW2 I think will have to introduce a new model. Should be interesting there as well, or else, they could lose some cash big time.
Turbine could be considered a pioneer if they come out of the gate with this model.
One of the things I've noticed (hard not to notice) is that a ton of people quit after their free trial. Maybe a cheaper, casual plan (say 10-15 hours a month of play for $5) would make them stay?
I find it hard to believe that LOTRO is such a success, though. While it seems crowded enough during prime time hours, much of the time after (or before) that it's basically a ghost town. Hitting the O panel while I'm out in the wilderness someplace, usually there's only 1-2 other players (sometimes I'm the only one). Good in a sense because I get minerals without much competition, but it's lousy because I have no one to group with.
Maybe it's doing a lot better in Europe?
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
I think they (Turbine) need to be careful abotu what they say and how they say it, that entire interview seemed to be very presumptious and speaking a little too far ahead.
But LOTRO Is very successful. My server (Brandywine) is constantly packed at all hours of the day. At night it thins out some, which is to be expected, but there's still tons of people running around.