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My First Rational Conversation about Darkfall
CaesarsGhost
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,136
Over the years I've attempted to engage Darkfall fans in conversations about the title. Occassionally I would point out the missed Betas that "inside information" leaked dates somehow, or the ever changing quality of the screenshots, or my personal opinions on "Open PvP with Full Loot".
I've found that, although quite the interesting overall topic, having a conversation about Darkfall is proven quite difficult. If you say anything even remotely negative, the knee-jerk of the fan is to refer to you as a Troll and be done with you... instead of actually debating the topic and showing anything. Since I'm a skeptic of the game, this often led me to end up sighing at the thread I would reply in and moving on with life.
IRC is another place I would attempt to engage "friends" in conversations about Darkfall. Normally people in my IRC channels approach Darkfall with a "wouldn't touch this topic with a 10 foot poll", in order to stay out of arguments that cause one Op or another to Kick-Ban a user.
...Darkfall is a topic almost as hard to talk about as Politics... that's pretty bad...
But last night I was talking to my friend while taking a break from working on my own MMO... and he had apparently just seen the trailer.
We talked for roughly 2 hours on the topic... and never once was the terms "Fanboi" or "Troll" used. Instead, we analyzed each other's opinion and provided references where appropriate. He respected, and agreed, with my video analysis of being able to recreate the shown portions of the game using Torque... never once did he call me a Troll about it though. Disagreed, yes... troll no. As the conversation progress, it became quite heated, but we both kept our respective "cool", and respected the view the other person took on the topic. Nearing the end of my (elongated, 2 hour) break, I asked him about the Community. As stated earlier, there's been quite a problem posting on Forums any remotely negative feedback about Darkfall, as apparently that makes you a troll (Keep in mind, I like Ryzom and still have some negative views on certain things about it... but it doesn't make me a troll). His response?
"Yeah, the biggest problem is the evangelicals on both sides of the argument."
He was right! The problem isn't that we have people who want to see the game and people who don't believe in it... the problem is that we have people who believe you're either one or the other.
Darkfall has become so set in a "Black and White" style community, that people fail to realize there's dozens of shades of grey in there.
"Being Objective does not mean you're being a Troll..."
Apparently he's been following Darkfall since 2005.
My whole point to this post is to ask the Darkfall Fans to be more considerate towards those who have an Objective Point of View, and have become skeptical. Being either of those things does not make me (or anybody else) a Troll...
When you state that I'm a troll (vaportroll/etc), you're using a Ad_hominem, and giving up the argument without much of a fight. When I'm wrong I admit it, and I always try to state that my posts are my personal objective opinion.
If the only response to an objective post is going to be the equivalent to calling the original poster "a poopoo head", there's no reason for anybody to post at all.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Comments
The DF section of this forum have becoma place for emotions and hate, and not so much fact and reason. When we got the video last friday, everything begun to change.
Right now we have nice posts to read, good topics to discuss, something i have never seen here before.
I agree with the OP. lets have fun and enjoy this place. Not all people have the same gaming backgrouns, age or favourite game. We all are uniq, let it stay that way.
If you come into the Darkfall forum saying that the whole video was faked then what do you expect? You just discredit yourself and leave yourself open to flaming.
Very good post here.
I think the reason why you will see fans of this game a little quick to sound the troll alarm is that the vast majority of naysayers in this forum are in fact trolling. It is much more serious than in other forums, and it even mentions this in the guide sticky at the top. People get frustrated by a continuous barrage of one liners after people try to make well thoughout posts, and the only response they get is "lol vaporware" or "you are stupid if you think this game exists.
Im not sure what MMO you are very interested in Caesar, maybe the only the one you are working on, but lets just say you are really hyped up about WAR. What if your forum was constantly filled with the same people posting in every thread that the game you are exited about just doesn't exist and you are an idiot for following it.
Im sure I have pulled the trigger a little fast at times, but after trying to ignore it for so long, it does make you a little more sensitive to who is just being skeptical with a legit opinion, and who is just trolling.
Im a big fan of the game, no doubt about it. There are no other games I am interested in right now, but when I do get into WAR topics I always give my opinion in a constructive way but end that its just not for me. In fact its not a great example because I never really put the game down since I think it will be great and successful, just not for me.
So while it is unfortunate that some legit skeptics get labeled trolls when they really arent trolling, you do have to appreciate the fact that it is very rare to get a non-fan on this forum that is giving his opinions objectively and in a non trolling manor. So it gets easy to loop everyone together in one shot.
Edit: I think i remember one of your posts about DF in the general forums. Where you were arguing with a fan about the possibility that the video was done in torque. Yes that is a legit statement and I dont see much wrong with it. But it is still kind of borderline in the sense that why make the comment? I don't want to look the thread up, but either myself or another fan responded with asking you "isnt it possible that you are lying about your development experience to win an internet arguement. The point was that no one really thinks you would do that, it doesnt make sense...so why point it out? So why point out the possibility that this video was faked? It just doesnt make any sense why they would do that, yet claim it was 100% in game footage etc. So i can see how some could consider that trolling while it was something borderline,
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
actually, its not just darkfall, if you go through most threads it happens more often than not, which is a shame because some really good intelligent conversations get laid off to the wayside replaced by the bickering and insults.
Oh it happens with every game, but i dont think its much of a stretch to say DF gets it way worse.
If you look on the main page, this website when describing the latest DF video said something to the extent of "Here is the video for the sometimes controversial mmo called darkfall" meaning it is obviously a little more dramatically debated than other mmos like WAR whos main trolling comes in the form of people just saying its a WoW clone.
That and like i pointed out earlier, the guide sticky at the top of the forum even makes a reference to how trolling is a little worse in this forum than elsewhere.
It became kind of the cool group think thing to do once DF followed a more unusual development cycle. Instead of just leavin the game alone, people go out of their way to discredit anything a fan may say by saying "lol vapor"
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
CaesarsGhost -
I understand your point but you hold some responsibility as well. You would not respect our point of view and would bash us as fanbois. I agree both sides are at fault but dont act like all you have ever done is try to have a rational conversation about darkfall. You have stated many times in different post that the game was fake/hoax and that they made all the screen shots with the Torque engine which is simply not true.
You are more then welcome to come join the conversation on what Darkfall has to offer but you cannot make claims without backing them up as you have done in the past.
Sooner or Later
I stand by, and reiterate, that statement. I hate the people who fail to use an argument objectively and instead point and call names... not the actual argument itself.
Hate the people, debate the game... you don't have to like me to hear me out. You don't have to hate me to reply. What you SHOULD do is try to reply as you hate my opinions, not me... that makes for better conversations.
QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT.
As for the topic, the word troll is thrown around here more than female celebreties adopt babies from third world countries. People forget what it means, and it just becomes a word which means "Someone who doesn't agree with me"; which, in fact, has nothing to do with the definition of troll.
Myself, CG, Theo, Zorv, HBlite, and other naysayers have been called trolls countless times just for seeing a different view than the fans of the game. Even after we give reasons to why we believe what we do, we are still called trolls.
Anyway best of luck on your MMO CG, although I thought you were working on an RPG shooter first?
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
There are shades of Grey in every argument if its taken you this long to come to this enlightenment not really sure what to say.
On a side note Ryzom is a pretty cool game.
What a pretentious post. Your asking Darkfall fans to see your side when your bashing the game and point out everything that is negative about it? Do you not the time that you are wasting? I mean if you don't like it then thats it. Don't flood the forums with shit posts like this asking for fans to be nice to you. What your goal? Is it to point out the very obvious flaws in Darkfall? I do not understand your incentive. Just say you don't like a game and move on.
Whats amazing here is that I'd much rather play a game with someone of HIS demeanor, rather than yours.
The POINT in bringing up things you do not like about a game (or concept) is to see how many others agree, see what ways it can be altered to make you like it, and to see if there is enough support for it among the community to influence someone to make a change.
For instance...
If one does not like that absolutely LAZY approach Aventurine takes toward their community...they can talk about it and make a lot of noise. If enough people agree, and make noise, then its likely they will revise their approach and make ammends....like say, through making a new video to show off. Neat how that works, no?
You can sit here and SAY that dissenters need to move on....but, frankly, its not the fans a company needs to listen to. Its the haters. You've already won over a fan...you have their money in hand. Its the hater you need to convert...to expand the business and be successful. The dissenters need to speak even louder, and more often. The fans need to temper their stupid ideals with better ideals that fit in the with the game they already enjoy.
Both sides need to get over the fact that forums are a place for discussion, and no discussion can ever really occur in a situation where EVERYONE agrees on everything.
I stand by, and reiterate, that statement. I hate the people who fail to use an argument objectively and instead point and call names... not the actual argument itself.
Hate the people, debate the game... you don't have to like me to hear me out. You don't have to hate me to reply. What you SHOULD do is try to reply as you hate my opinions, not me... that makes for better conversations.
QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT.
As for the topic, the word troll is thrown around here more than female celebreties adopt babies from third world countries. People forget what it means, and it just becomes a word which means "Someone who doesn't agree with me"; which, in fact, has nothing to do with the definition of troll.
Myself, CG, Theo, Zorv, HBlite, and other naysayers have been called trolls countless times just for seeing a different view than the fans of the game. Even after we give reasons to why we believe what we do, we are still called trolls.
Anyway best of luck on your MMO CG, although I thought you were working on an RPG shooter first?
Look you guys keep sayin all you do is try to have a debate about the game and we call you a troll, that is not true. You do not get called a troll because you have a different view, you are called a troll because you do nothing but state your opinion as fact/law and if us fans do not agree we are some how stupied or something.
YOu guys come into the Darkfall forums for one reason and that reason is to get a arguement going, there is not other way to look at it, no other spin you can put on it. Its simple, dont care about the game? Dont like the game? GET THE HELL out of our forums then.
All of you haters/naysayers do is call it vaporware, a hoax, the developers are nothing but liers, this game is a scam and bunch of other useless things. How are we going to have a rational coverstation about Darkfall when you cannot even bring up one rational topic to talk about. We can only tell you so many times the game is real and not vaporware before we call you trolls.
You guys are at fault as much as we are and until you can get that though your head we can never have a rational conversation about Darkfall with you.
"I stand by, and reiterate, that statement. I hate the people who fail to use an argument objectively and instead point and call names... not the actual argument itself." Like you guys never call the fanbois names? Get over yourself, you guys do the same thing you are bitching about.
Its one thing to have a different opinion, its another to attack the people who are following the game.
How can we have a rational debate with you guys when you will not give us a topic to debate?
Sooner or Later
I stand by, and reiterate, that statement. I hate the people who fail to use an argument objectively and instead point and call names... not the actual argument itself.
Hate the people, debate the game... you don't have to like me to hear me out. You don't have to hate me to reply. What you SHOULD do is try to reply as you hate my opinions, not me... that makes for better conversations.
QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT.
As for the topic, the word troll is thrown around here more than female celebreties adopt babies from third world countries. People forget what it means, and it just becomes a word which means "Someone who doesn't agree with me"; which, in fact, has nothing to do with the definition of troll.
Myself, CG, Theo, Zorv, HBlite, and other naysayers have been called trolls countless times just for seeing a different view than the fans of the game. Even after we give reasons to why we believe what we do, we are still called trolls.
Anyway best of luck on your MMO CG, although I thought you were working on an RPG shooter first?
Look you guys keep sayin all you do is try to have a debate about the game and we call you a troll, that is not true. You do not get called a troll because you have a different view, you are called a troll because you do nothing but state your opinion as fact/law and if us fans do not agree we are some how stupied or something.
YOu guys come into the Darkfall forums for one reason and that reason is to get a arguement going, there is not other way to look at it, no other spin you can put on it. Its simple, dont care about the game? Dont like the game? GET THE HELL out of our forums then.
All of you haters/naysayers do is call it vaporware, a hoax, the developers are nothing but liers, this game is a scam and bunch of other useless things. How are we going to have a rational coverstation about Darkfall when you cannot even bring up one rational topic to talk about. We can only tell you so many times the game is real and not vaporware before we call you trolls.
You guys are at fault as much as we are and until you can get that though your head we can never have a rational conversation about Darkfall with you.
Its one thing to have a different opinion, its another to attack the people who are following the game.
How can we have a rational debate with you guys when you will not give us a topic to debate?
Careful there. Because this coin can be flipped to the other side quite easily. Because many of the DF "supporters" here do nothing but declare this game the greatest success ever, declare it complete and declare that any doubt about the game is totally unfounded and without reason.
The moment anyone comes here to point out possible problems or possible mishaps in the development and release of DF, the "Fanbois" descend on them like Avenging Angels, blazing away with everything they have, when all some of us are trying to point out is that nothing is set into stone until we have the finished product in our hands with all promises kept.
I've repeatedly said that DF is very likely real, that it will most probably enter Beta soon. There are quite a few signs that point that way. But I also said that we have yet to see evidence of the state of the game as a whole. Nobody outside Aventurine has played it. Nobody outside the company CAN know if the game is indeed everything they promise.
And, to repeat myself, until the game does come out with all features included and I can play it for free before I buy it, I will continue to urge caution and discuss possibilities of flaws and the possibility of features missing. Because while I may not enjoy the game myself (I do not know, I will have to try it), I would like nothing more than to see a game like this succeed and maybe wake up the other companies on the market to look beyond established patterns in development and game-design.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I stand by, and reiterate, that statement. I hate the people who fail to use an argument objectively and instead point and call names... not the actual argument itself.
Hate the people, debate the game... you don't have to like me to hear me out. You don't have to hate me to reply. What you SHOULD do is try to reply as you hate my opinions, not me... that makes for better conversations.
QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT.
As for the topic, the word troll is thrown around here more than female celebreties adopt babies from third world countries. People forget what it means, and it just becomes a word which means "Someone who doesn't agree with me"; which, in fact, has nothing to do with the definition of troll.
Myself, CG, Theo, Zorv, HBlite, and other naysayers have been called trolls countless times just for seeing a different view than the fans of the game. Even after we give reasons to why we believe what we do, we are still called trolls.
Anyway best of luck on your MMO CG, although I thought you were working on an RPG shooter first?
Look you guys keep sayin all you do is try to have a debate about the game and we call you a troll, that is not true. You do not get called a troll because you have a different view, you are called a troll because you do nothing but state your opinion as fact/law and if us fans do not agree we are some how stupied or something.
YOu guys come into the Darkfall forums for one reason and that reason is to get a arguement going, there is not other way to look at it, no other spin you can put on it. Its simple, dont care about the game? Dont like the game? GET THE HELL out of our forums then.
All of you haters/naysayers do is call it vaporware, a hoax, the developers are nothing but liers, this game is a scam and bunch of other useless things. How are we going to have a rational coverstation about Darkfall when you cannot even bring up one rational topic to talk about. We can only tell you so many times the game is real and not vaporware before we call you trolls.
You guys are at fault as much as we are and until you can get that though your head we can never have a rational conversation about Darkfall with you.
Its one thing to have a different opinion, its another to attack the people who are following the game.
How can we have a rational debate with you guys when you will not give us a topic to debate?
Careful there. Because this coin can be flipped to the other side quite easily. Because many of the DF "supporters" here do nothing but declare this game the greatest success ever, declare it complete and declare that any doubt about the game is totally unfounded and without reason.
The moment anyone comes here to point out possible problems or possible mishaps in the development and release of DF, the "Fanbois" descend on them like Avenging Angels, blazing away with everything they have, when all some of us are trying to point out is that nothing is set into stone until we have the finished product in our hands with all promises kept.
I've repeatedly said that DF is very likely real, that it will most probably enter Beta soon. There are quite a few signs that point that way. But I also said that we have yet to see evidence of the state of the game as a whole. Nobody outside Aventurine has played it. Nobody outside the company CAN know if the game is indeed everything they promise.
And, to repeat myself, until the game does come out with all features included and I can play it for free before I buy it, I will continue to urge caution and discuss possibilities of flaws and the possibility of features missing. Because while I may not enjoy the game myself (I do not know, I will have to try it), I would like nothing more than to see a game like this succeed and maybe wake up the other companies on the market to look beyond established patterns in development and game-design.
I am not saying the supports do not do this, what I am saying is the naysayers have done the same thing the OP has said he hates.. He has done exactly what he hates on other posts.
All I am saying is both sides are at fault, niether has handled themselfs correctly, me included. I am quick to add the troll tag to haters post because I was sick of tell them it was not vaporware or a hoax.
Will Darkfall be a success? No idea until I play the game. Is Darkfall real and currently in testing? Yes. Have the Developers lied to their customers? Nope.
Most supports are not so much in love with "Darkfall" as what Darkfall offers us as far as the feature list. That is what most people dont get.
Sooner or Later
This forum is indeed an interesting place, it seems to be the most bipolar at this site (by bipolar, I refer to direct opposition; nothing of the mental aspect).
Although what I find lacking is the amount of information that the developers of Darkfall provide to their community. This video was a good example of this. While having the video did show that there is development of Darkfall, it left some concerns and questions; of which have not been answered.
Did the developers provide any additional comments or supporting information with this video or just sent it out with little else to say? (I do not know, I do not go to the official forums, I just check game sites once in a while. And I haven't come across any supportive information from the company.)
Any-hoot, good luck to your title.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
I'm new to these forums but I've been around MMO's since '99. I found Darkfall around two years and a half ago or so and signed up for their forums about a year ago. I was impressed with the write ups on their website. I am a hardcore gamer and play on PvP servers where available. I heard nothing but hate spewed about Darkfall wherever I went, even on their own forums. It wasn't news to me I saw it at other forums as well. But I didn't complain when I saw graphics which weren't as good as other games. I have seen too many games with incredible graphics and horrendous game play. Or games with millions of subs but horrendous graphics. I didn't complain when release dates were pushed back or when there where excuses about publishing in North America.
I've had dozens of conversations with people who have practically screamed "Vaporware" everytime I even consider mentioning Darkfall. Now I know a good half dozen guys that will play along side me when this game releases and I can only hope to see alot of naysayers and what not there as well.
I mean there will have to be someone to kill....
Best,
Phae
I stand by, and reiterate, that statement. I hate the people who fail to use an argument objectively and instead point and call names... not the actual argument itself.
Hate the people, debate the game... you don't have to like me to hear me out. You don't have to hate me to reply. What you SHOULD do is try to reply as you hate my opinions, not me... that makes for better conversations.
QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT.
As for the topic, the word troll is thrown around here more than female celebreties adopt babies from third world countries. People forget what it means, and it just becomes a word which means "Someone who doesn't agree with me"; which, in fact, has nothing to do with the definition of troll.
Myself, CG, Theo, Zorv, HBlite, and other naysayers have been called trolls countless times just for seeing a different view than the fans of the game. Even after we give reasons to why we believe what we do, we are still called trolls.
Anyway best of luck on your MMO CG, although I thought you were working on an RPG shooter first?
What? This post has nothing to do with Darkfall. It is meer attention whoreing.
It is provocative to people here genuinely seeking to discuss the game and is just a flimsy platform to put forward his theory that the video was fake.
Your supposed to set an example as a correspondent and shouldn't be condoning this kind of behavior.
This opening post fits the bill on both sides. No one is innocent in this particular corner of the internet.
I have seen skeptics and fans alike throw out insults, one liners and other various forms of forum hate; a good deal of the time it happens unprovoked (again this applies to BOTH sides). Of course we can't turn a blind eye to the ignorance of some people who do start screaming labels when there is a valid point on the other side, whether it be fans or skeptics.
Some day we may yet all get along.
You speak from the perspective of someone who was burned. (and understandably so)
Here's the thing... people who were burned, who are then skeptical about things others believe in, are deemed nasty cynics... you just have to live with that, unfortunately.
People never learn from others' mistakes.. they only learn from their own. I remember clashing with you back in the day over The Chronicle... I wanted that game to be real, but it became apparent to the objective observer it wasn't. And while you were never rude, you were pretty blind... and fought tooth and nail against the evidence.
Anyway, we all live and learn. You have come a long way snce those days.
But we cant expect to live, and for others to learn from that. We can but politely warn.
PS It became apparent to me a wgile back that those who supported Darkfall were supporting an ideal, rather than espousing belief in the game per se. Its a subtle thing.. but important.
The main problem is that for so many years, Darkfall has been the subject of random, oftenmindless and unfounded "vaporwarezz!" comments. This occurs so often that you're right, it is a knee jerk reaction to call someone a troll.
At this point however, no one can really say the game is vaporware, in light of all the evidence (that was always there if anyone cared to look for it). Will it fall short of all the promises? Its likely, we have yet to see.
Darkfall Travelogues!
I appreciate the sentiments of the OP but it all seems rather futile and far to late in the day, when we will know the truth by the end of the year.
In just a few more weeks we will all be finally playing Darkfall ourselves and know the truth, or we wont, and we will know that after over a decade of development and big talk they still have nothing to show for it.
You see, your "Objective" is subjective. Sure, there are people who dismiss people as trolls, but there are just as many that dismiss the opposite side as fanbois.
Generally, there is a reason for stereotypes. Why do so many "fanbois" cry out, "Troll!" It could be that the community is polarized, or it could be that at some point in time, these two stereotypes were warranted, which eventually led to the polarization.
Edit: And another thing: I have rarely seen arguments or discussions about the GAME. I have only seen these "Objective Arguments" about things such as PR and whether or not the game is vaporware. I wouldn't call that constructive at all. In fact, just in theory those "arguments" border trolling, do they not?
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
The difference is, the overzealous fans have created trolls.
Can you say that trolls have created fans?
It's possible that 'fans' created the term 'Troll'. But doesn't it sounds better than saying
"A kid with low self-esteem and suffering from minority complex, using internets beloved anonymity to become some sort of Hero."
Isn't it kinda a transparent excuse to keep arguin on a internet MMORPG community? I do know that most of those guys are no jail-slammers. They're just a bigger nerd than all of us.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
Well I have popped by for more than a year to state the obvious, that this development is bogus, a hoax and that a real game will never surface out of this. The signs are all there. People believe anything this company (more like a couple of guys in their mothers basement) says and do.
Does that mean I have any emotions or hate towards it? Nope. See fans (and the creators of DF in disguise) often try to attack any one pointing out the obvious.
There is no Darkfall game. It will never come out in any completed state. I really can't see why stating the darn obvious is "hate".
I have zero emotions about it. Zip. None. Nada.
Get it?
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CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
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Well I have popped by for more than a year to state the obvious, that this development is bogus, a hoax and that a real game will never surface out of this. The signs are all there. People believe anything this company (more like a couple of guys in their mothers basement) says and do.
Does that mean I have any emotions or hate towards it? Nope. See fans (and the creators of DF in disguise) often try to attack any one pointing out the obvious.
There is no Darkfall game. It will never come out in any completed state. I really can't see why stating the darn obvious is "hate".
I have zero emotions about it. Zip. None. Nada.
Get it?
Im not talking about your feelings. Its about the feeling a post like this will spawn.
And i thinks its strange to have such faith in the fact there is no game......when you have seen the trailers and beta have begun.
Its kinnda hard to take those opinions seriously. Anyway, the laughs are at me if you are right.