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What effect does the combat system have on scaring people away from this game?
Look beyond the full-loot pvp aspect of the game that will immeadiatly turn a certain % of the market away. Look beyond people's opinions that the graphics are not the industry's absolute best.
I want to just focus on the topic of combat for this thread. So please if you have any comments about the games development, graphics, etc...please post it in another thread. This should be pretty simple because I would really like to hear opinions about the combat system.
So as I mentioned in the other thread, a lot of people played WoW for their first MMO. It was their introduction to the genre, and is proof that WoW improved the MMO genre more than anyone could imagine. Say what you will about WoW, but its numbers are there and it has really opened so many gamer's eyes to MMOs.
In WoW, you have a pretty simple and common combat system, that we have seen over the years but WoW really has perfected it for the masses. You target your opponent, select your skill from the hot bar, and watch it take effect while you pretty much know what your next move will be. If its pve for example, you may be spamming ice bolt while keeping an eye on your group members to possible have to decurse one of them.
In pvp, you pretty much have a general approach to every other class in the game for how you want to fight.
Darkfall's combat system is so extremely different, that I think a lot of gamers are just not use to it, and may even write the game off because it seems too challenging or they are afraid they wont be able to adapt. They have gotten use to liking the idea of being able to lock on and push buttons. The idea of having one of their big spells simply side-stepped, or that they cant run around spamming aoe because it may kill their group too is a little confusing and just overwhelming.
It is new to not be able to look across the land and see who is over there behind that tree because they have big green letters over their head. From the video, we see that your position on the ground can make or break the fight (put your back to the cliff and a knockback spell may end you)
Now before I get attacked...im not saying everyone who doesnt like this game fits into the category I have explained. But there is definitely some people who do.
Some of us love the idea of bringing twitch gameplay and skill back into the combat system. PVP in a game like WoW can be challenging at times, but for the most part it is simple. PVE is especially simple in raids once you have figured the fight out. Standing there hitting one button over and over isnt really engaging...the challenge come from figuring out how the script works.
So is there a way for darkfall to market their combat system to maybe ease the mind of these players? Do we just write them off as a loss? There may be some who like the idea of full loot pvp in a sandbox, but dont like the idea of having to aim their attacks and manually dodge. Remember that dodging in other mmos is sometimes as simple as "my gear gives me 20% to dodge, so i could basically afk while you attack me and i will "dodge" 20% of your hits". In DF, you have to play a little bit of a chess game if you are close to a range attacker and try and make him miss. Long range you obviously do the best you can of avoiding spells or arrows.
Again, I want to be clear that i know this combat system is not unique. DF is not the first game to do this, so im not crediting them for being super creative in this respect, but we have not seen a fantasy MMO do this successfully for a little while and with graphics that come from the last couple of years.
It is going to be a lot of fun learning the little things about the combat system, and getting better at it. When skill comes into the equation, it gives you a lot more pride when you win a fight, and a lot more desire to improve when you get defeated. You can't just say "oh that guy beat me because he raids pve with his uber corp 7 days a week and has the best gear". Nope wont be an excuse, and i love it.
So this turned into a little rant, but I think it is a good topic for conversation. WoW was obviously the example I used the most, but the same applies to WAR since it is pretty much the same thing. AoC had their directional attacks that was innovative in a way, but ultimately did not work out. EVE is a full-loot pvp anywhere sandbox, but still has similar problems with clicking some buttons and watching the show. I play EVE so i know that certain ships require much more skill to fly, but the concept is accurate.
Well hopefully we can have a good discussion. And again please keep comments to the combat system ONLY. Anything else belongs in the other threads.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
Comments
Difficult to say for now. The system itself may be something many people want to try and some will definitely turn away from it and play other games again. That is a matter of personal taste I suppose.
The problems with the combat system as I see them are as follows:
1) Lag. Yes, Aventurine may keep lag to a minimum, let's say for a moment they will actually achieve that, even in huge battles. There will still be lag, even if it is miniscule. A player being closer to the servers will have a millisecond advantage over others who are further away. In a "turn"based game, that does not really matter so much. In a FPS type game, it matters quite a bit more. I'm not saying this will be the undoing of the game, but it might be a problem when you apply swings that, for all the info on your screen should hit, but misses because you were a milisecond too late. This comes into play even more when it comes to ranged attacks. How that will balance itself out, we will have to see.
2) Complexity. Yes, many pepople say that this is a good thing and it is for those that this game will most likely hold the most appeal. Some people though will most likely be turned away by it? Why, because some people tend to want to enjoy themselves, and just that. No complicated maneuvers to learn, no hugely complex combat system to master, but simple and plain fun. I can see this being a deciding factor of keeping quite a few players, especially the crowd that was drawn in by WoW-Style games. This does not mean that I think any less of any certain preference. But preferences exist, and those who value a simple, fun time above the extreme complexity that DF will most likely bring will be turned away from the game by just that.
3) Exploitability. This is really in tune with the first point. Have a quicker connection? Make sure to jump and run around as much as possible, so the one with the slower connection doesn't stand a chance in hell to hit you. But yeah, as said above, we will have to see how that plays out and how Aventurine manage to deal with these things.
All in all, I am thinking that the combat system could be exciting and fun, but it could also turn out to be frustrating. And that largely depends on what kind of experience you enjoy. I have no doubt that quite a few people will not like the FPS style combat. I personally know quite a few who have already told me so. Me, I don#t know it yet. I will have to see how it is implemented.
But yes. The Combat System will keep a good portion of players away from the game.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Yes I do think some of the people that you describe will have to written off as a loss.
People who don't play other kinds of games as well as mmorpg's might find that the play style just doesn't suit them. I personally knew a lot of people in wow that had never, or rarely, played video games before world of warcraft.
On the other hand there are a lot of people who don't normally play mmo's because of the click and wait combat that may be attracted to play Darkfall because of it's fps style.
I suppose in a way Darkfall is a cross genre game.
Yup this will be interesting, and reminds me a lot of Planetside. I had a terrible connection when I first started playing this game and it definitely effected my ability to compete.
I have been saying that my biggest concern with DF is server stability, which kind of works into this point. If the game is laggy at all, it could really effect how rewarding the combat system is.
The only thing i disgree with is that i believe it may be the undoing of the game if this becomes a noticeable problem and is not fixed promptly. We are talking about a game that is based on pvp and combat. If the backbone of the game is not functioning, it is going to crumble. Especially with all the hate on this game, if it launches with a combat system that is simply broken, the reviews are going to crucify it and thats it.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
This is a really good point.
Again ill reference Planetside and say that Planetside probably brought a lot of FPS fans into the MMO genre the same way WoW brought in new gamers.
I have heard people call DF a MMORPGFPS before, not sure if i really agree with the FPS title being on this game at all, because it is a fps "style" and i believe it is more RPG than FPS. Maybe I just link FPS to "boom headshot" and sniper rifles etc.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
a little bit of a rant imbant ...
Anyway, I think once player reviews start popping up, Darkfall will attract more people who aren't afraid of trying something new, and challenging. I think players who enjoyed the Elder Scrolls series, Mount and Blade, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, or even Age of Conan, will find a happy home on Agon ... as long as they can handle the open FFA PvP, full loot features.
I'm hoping for a significant subscription base ... one that can sustain the game, and it's community, for years to come.
I reckon we'll see.
Yea im very interested to see what the subcription base will be 3 months or so after launch when we get a good picture of its fan base, assuming a good launch. With about 10k players able to be online at one time, even if numbers are very low compared to wow, war etc...there should still be plenty to have a few servers that are 100% active all the time. As long as it is fun for us, thats all that matters. Everyone knows that DF will have low sub numbers, and they make the mistake of thinking that sub numbers = quality, which of course it doesnt.
And believe it or not...it did start off as a small rant, but then I went back and added more into it
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
I believe right now MMO's cater to a bigger audience than they should. There is no doubt that WoW caters to a huge audience, mostly because of the relative ease and laziness inherent in the "EQ Design".
Not everyone enjoys fps style combat, and not everyone enjoys turn based EQ style combat. Darkfall's success has nothing to do with WoW's player base and attracting them. Darkfall's success has everything to do with how easy it can attract traditional fps'ers to the MMO world with a fps style MMO.
Darkfall does'nt need to bland down its gameplay to appeal to everyone, it needs to focus like it has promised and execute that focus very well. If they achieve this they will have a very popular game in my humble opinion.
I think Darkfall will atract a mix of fps, m&B(There is alot) and Rpg fans.
None, I will still play it.....
Why can't people summarise rather than going on and on and on (must be looking for as many words as possible), I love the sly comments being subtely implanted here, " We know the subs will be low" "disregarding player base". A bit of subliminal messaging never goes amiss does it. (Thought i'd reply seeing as I had to read all that rubbish.
The game has been designed to cater for all play types and partitioned the world up accordingly, from safe cities within a kingdom / to clan cities within the kingdom developing the need for conflict out from the starter capitals. Another key element is to remove the need for labels and code the game to cater for most elements which the MMO player base likes. As such lot of options to try combat without chance of penalty.
The combat system is no biggie as all the normal component of an MMO exist...(That is not just combat and not everyone is interested in this)
World size - Absolutely Massive...
Loss of Loot , easy to replace so no real deal a mindset is required here that digital pixels are not what counts just your charachter and of course yourself the player who manipulates it.
So the answer is No why would the combat system scare people away when the game has so much more to offer. Now if your question had been if all DFO had to offer was combat .....
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
*pretending DF releases and has all the features promised*
DF doens't appeal to all crowds at all.
Combat: The combat is more challenging than usual.. As discussed, this one takes a little more skill instead of just button mashing. Some people who play games like simplicity in combat, so having a skillful combat system would be a bit of a problem.
PvE: While there will be PvE with great AI, there will still be problems. Firstly, who's to say that PvPers won't just camp these spots and kil any PvE player that comes here? This turns off people who don't like PvP..and people who like to raid without any PvP involved.
Loot: The loot is not as good as any of the items crafted (correct me if I'm wrong). Thsi will, again, turn off PvE players.
Graphic lovers: DF doesn't have great graphics; this will turn "graphics whores" off. (there are people who concentrate more on graphics).
Open PvP: Not all people love the idea of open PvP with full loot. For one, this turns off players who don't enjoy PvP; and secondly this turns off players who don't want to lose all of their hard earned items when they die.
Hardcore Mentality: DF is going to be a pretty hardcore game. It will take a lot of time to build cities, start towns, prepare for seiges, build boats, harvest materials, etc. I've played a game similiar to this, it is very under populated (one of the reasons being it is such a 'hardcore' game).
just my $0.02...no DF hating involved either
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Yea mike bascially said what i was going to say in response to Isane, who i have no idea why he posted like he did in this thread and another one. If its too long of a read, just skip it?
I dont think you can just say "no" the combat system will not turn people away...when there have been a few good points made in this thread besides my points that suggest otherwise.
Just because there will be other things to do in game...pvp is the core concept and is the people who are comming for that dont get what they want, yea it is going to effect the game.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
that can be very easilly fixed, if simply when engaging combat u cant run fast like it happens in Gothic. For those that havent taste the fine combat system of gothic when u enter battle u loose a big percentage of your speed ,makes also the battles quite more tactical when no happy rogues runing around +sprinting which is quite unrealistic so the one with the fast connection wont be able to run and jump confusing the slower connection player,and its also very realistic and for some starnge reason havet seen that in any mmorpg so far...weird hmm
Considering Darkfall 's combat system in general :
i cant believe that if for example Oblivion online if ever comes true it wont be a block buster..The main reason for that would be the simple but very addictive manual combat system...
Now.. DF uses if i understood a similar completely manual swinging sword system with the only diference that it also adds a skill deck to use some extra attack power moves buffs debufss e.t.c. The key i belive is to have relatively decent servers that would provide stability so slower connections wont have huge probs vs faster connex.
Whats better satisfaction for a hunter to throw an arrow with his bow and stick it to the opponents chest after aiming manually or hear the klangings of the swords after performing manual tactical melle battles..that is called addictive gameplay combat system fellows and its exactly what its damn missing a lot in our times from the mmo's companies develop.
Aoc made a similar try but they overdid it with the key combo button spamming block manual system failed 150% and combat aint that manual after all since hunters in fact auto target and in fact auto-attack targets... Gief nice combat systems to the ppl guys
AS for DF?
Manual combat system: The older in age players be sure that they are waiting for games that have manual combat systems like DF.. as for the younger? if they give it a try they will find out they made a good choise...If ofc Aventurine put in the proper way all the right elements and features they promise DF wil have...
Ganging : And since the ppl know its a hardcore pvp mmorpg with full looting not much of safe zones e.t.c. the people that will join the game wont complain for ganging in when pveing ,for the same reason if u go for a safari in africa alone and u get attacked by a lion . When u go out there u r well aware that there maybe lions waiting for you... :]
Tazarconan,
I think you made a very good point. It ties in to that idea of added satisfactoin and a sense that you actually accomplish something when you get a kill that you had to work harder for. Autoattacking a locked target does not come close to the feel that you get when you have to lead a target or possibly guess which way he is going to strafe.
The addictive gameplay is also right on the money when you think about oblivion. Hopefully everything is implemented and the servers are smooth enough to allow for this kind of experience.
However the problem remains of getting the newer players to even try the game. Once they get in there i agree that they may find the gameplay so addictive that even if they are terrible at first, it will be fun enough and the desire to get better will have them loving the game.
Hopefully the game releases well and good reviews bring people on the fence in.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
If we are talking about the effect of Darkfall's combat on the general MMO audience then I believe a lot of the acceptance will hinge upon the way loot is handled in regards to character concept and relative power.
Losing your belongings should be a detriment to the defeated as well as a reward for the victor however, does the loss of that loot effectively make you half the character you were before? Time will tell how important loot is in the greater scheme of combat.
The general MMO audience places a lot of value on loot and the acquisition of loot. They want to work hard to get it and identify with their character through their "trophies". Now, I would normally say "well, go get new trophies through conquering another player" but if it becomes that much harder to win a fight every time you lose (thus losing a great deal of your overall power) it starts to be a chore to get back to being a playable/viable combatant. An uphill run.
Loot may be handled in such a way that it isn't necessary to be fully equipped in nice gear in order to be a threat on the battlefield, but if that is true then what emphasis will be placed on getting gear in the first place? Seems like a delicate balancing act.
I'm not arguing for any particular loot system and it may be the last thing on your mind as far as open pvp is concerned but the larger MMO audience will want some concrete answers about items.
I'm looking forward to learning how Darkfall will handle this.
And saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that, with it, thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits....in thy mercy."
I think anyone that wants to play and enjoy Darkfall needs to get the idea that acquiring loot is in anyway the objective of their game well out of their head.
It would probably better to regard items in the same way you would regard a stack of potions in a loot based game i.e. disposable.
Yep, I can fully understand that idea assuming that loot doesn't always decide the battle (assuming nearly equally skilled opponents). It would promote a more free-for-all pvp action oriented game.
Of course, that brings up questions about the value of crafting what would essentially be disposable items and the actual reward for defeating another player. Although I suppose the key part of your response was the term 'objective' as quickly lost items, however powerful, have limited value.
Yup this will be interesting, and reminds me a lot of Planetside. I had a terrible connection when I first started playing this game and it definitely effected my ability to compete.
I have been saying that my biggest concern with DF is server stability, which kind of works into this point. If the game is laggy at all, it could really effect how rewarding the combat system is.
The only thing i disgree with is that i believe it may be the undoing of the game if this becomes a noticeable problem and is not fixed promptly. We are talking about a game that is based on pvp and combat. If the backbone of the game is not functioning, it is going to crumble. Especially with all the hate on this game, if it launches with a combat system that is simply broken, the reviews are going to crucify it and thats it.
All I've been thinking about is how my experience was with planetside, where those servers were physically, and the resulting issues. Unfortunately planetside didn't have the best netcode to ensure fluid data transfer, and this was not addressed until -years- later, after the place was empty.
We are literally talking about gamers, FPS gamers, guys who want a fucking kick ass product, who have made a game for other gamers. I have to say, I'll be surprised if we are getting really bad lag and bouncing around all over the place for any reason other than a bad ping due to proximity.
Another note on planetside- I had so many hours of fun in that game, even with the lag (small fights, no lag), that if darkfall is anywhere near even THAT archaic netcode with the content it promises, I'll be in love.
1 thing also worthy to be mentioned. One of the major factors of addictive and fun gameplay is your own character and how he can be evolved in time due to lvling.
Deep and addictive character skill/talent system. When u check some of the best single player rpg's you see reallly many skills to learn loads of perks /feats/talents , but when u see all the best mmo's so far in the market its strenght agility stamina intelect spirit ..5 stats only for your character which in addition the raise randomly (wow for example) and u even doint have the choise to raise them as u like..
Im really curious to hear some answers here! Why this happens? Are there lagg issues maybe ? Why dont give the player a huge and deep and addictive character build up system?
Some will say that there are balance issues but they are wrong... U get balance issues when u have 3 talent trees only for example . There u have to equalise ofc the trees so none class can complain ok.
But when u have huge skill trees with hundrends of things to learn there are no balance issues cause all players will get the chance to build whatever toon they have in mind.
U want to make a battle mage with plate armour and 2 handed sword?
You want to make a swashbuckler rogue that can str8 chalenge warriors without too much stealth talents and also able to lay some traps?
You want to make a ranger/hunter that apart bow can be an alamost equal opponent in mellee fights?
You should be able to do this and not make games restricted! Thats what's callled unique character class customization fellows.. and its missing aso much also from curennt mmo's.
And from what i hear these choises are included on DF..
I only pray that aventurine will accomplish the misasion..
( having doubts but still hopes
)
I'm not a fan of the FPS style combat.. AoC really killed it for me (pressing the attack keys and waiting 2/3 seconds for them to work..).. but I do like Counter-strike..
As far as full loot/full equipment loss..
As longa s the equipment doesn't make or break a character.. everything should be fine.. But as soon as the sword of PWN FACES becomes the only sword to have.. I'm done.
I'm tired of itemized based games, like WoW. I want my trophy to be effective, but not the difference between skill and player.. FPS are about how good the player is.. NOT how good the gun he has is..
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This will probably be the biggest potential problem, though to be fair, turn-based games suffer badly from lag if they involve a lot of instant-use attacks/spells/items (eg: WOW). Short of making sure to play on the lowest latency server for your location, there isn't much anyone can do about lag; it's the internet.
this is a negative as well as a positive. i'm not sure DF's combat system is that much more complex than WOW though - you do however need to be able to aim.
jumping consumes stamina, and without stamina, you can't attack, so people won't be jumping around that much i don't think.
by the same token, DF could attract a whole new crowd of players from FPS gamers who find MMOs too skill-less and slow-paced.
One thing's for sure, Darkfall will be something new and different and noone can really tell how it will go in the market. That said, you can be sure lots of game developers will be watching how DF performs, especially seeing as how most of them have been too gutless to try anything new or innovative in the MMO genre --- they're all too busy creating WOW clones.
Part of the reason Darkfall is revolutionary is that Darkfall is effectively a massive-scale FPS -- other MMO developers haven't been able or willing to attempt something like this because of the much greater demands on server architecture this type of game requires.
Advanced server architectures (that can dynamically re-size world zones and redistribute players to less-loaded nodes in the server cluster) take time and a lot of resources to get right, which partially explains DF's long development time, and why other MMO developers haven't had the guts to even try -- as I said before - they just want to copy WOW (*cough* Warhammer).