OP, when making an impression about a community, you are just considering a few of the members that we as the "mature" Darkfall community tend to ignore, or dismiss.
There are hardcore "old school" UO fans like me who respect and welcome the new comers by introducing the game the best way they can among that community that you address in your post.
Try to be a little more objective when making threads. Thanks!
It has been said here few times.. They aren't repesenting all of the registerers in forums. So just leave it alone, if you get satisfaction from posting this stuff.. Then do it.
Yup this has been said time and time again, but they wont listen. Even beyond that...the forums dont even represent what the community will be like on release. The people who post in a regular fashion on the offficial boards may represent 1 or 2 percent of the subscription base if it releases well and catches on. Remember im talking about the forum members who post a lot, not the lurkers, not the people who just registered, and not the people who only post once in a blue moon.
But hey anything to put DF in a bad light right? They cant call it vaporware anymore (unless they really stretch the definition to the point where all games are vaporware until they release), and they are running out of steam on the graphics front after many people have realized that the graphics are more than fine. So now i guess it is on to bashing the community.
Eventually it will be "DF only has so many subcribers, not anywhere near what WAR or WoW has, so clearly that means it is bad".
it really is fun watchin them waste time in these forums trying to convince others, thinking that people are actually taking into account what they say.
Ya, there might be some harsh words tossed around on the forums, but it's not everyone. At least with darkfall, if you see someone you don't like from the forums in game, you can pretty much do what you want with them without having to challenge him and hope he accepts or meet him at a battleground or anything like that.
Mike.......I usually have a lot of respect for you as you usually at least make some good points but this... I read the thread you are talking about over at the DF forum and nowhere does the OP in that thread even suggest that anyone should de-hype any other games. He only tells them to come and hype Darkfall. This is something I've seen done in almost every game's forum that I've followed in development. This is not unusual even a little bit. You have come on here and accused others of being "elitists" in a very elitist way. This paints you in a very bad light. 8 or even 100 comments from a forum hardly is representative of an entire community and to base your assumptions from that is arrogant at best. Just calm down buddy and wait for the game to release. That is the only way we will all see if it's worth all of the hype.
I just found this thread linked back from the Darkfall thread, linked from the pub thread here that is now locked - if you follow that?
Anyway, Darkfall community, you have a bad element there.
I stand by my comments to imbant (posts 76 and 80.) Coming up to Beta, you really want to get on top of this.
There will be Beta Testers who will make valid criticisms of Darkfall. It is important that they be permitted to do so.
They may well be wrong, then again they may have valid points and concerns.
If you want to see what happens when Fanbois rule a Beta Test? - I suggest you visit the Pirates of the Burning Sea forums.
Many of the issues that FLS are now attempting to address were well known and raised during the Beta Phase. Many of the issues raised then were shouted down as "dead horse" issues by a small number of very vocal fanbois, repeatedly.
Those issues now plague the game.
If you want Darkfall to be the game you all hope it can be, and give it the best possible chance at success, your community is the place to start.
Yeah, the MMORPG.com boards have their fair share of trolls - but MMORPG.com is not a developer - they can't do much real damage here.
wow, good job highlighting only the douchebag posts out of the thread (some of which were posted by the same person), and leaving out the one's where people defended mmorpg.com or said dehyping was stupid. "Those who need numbers to measure a game are stupid IMO, i never rely on reviews, hype-o-meters and that kind of stuff when deciding what to play, i try to play the game first and then decide by myself. Ye i know, we cannot play darkfall still, but i judge from what we´ve seen so far and i´ll judge from what i´ll see." "I do not support this thread." "Instead of saying " mmorpg.com...what losers " try to understand that the more positive marketing and newbies being interested in the game is obviously beneficial to the future and survival of Darkfall .Don't think that just these forums are enough .Go to mmorpg.com and post positive points ..it is important
Later" "We want more people because it makes the game more alive. Anyone who can't see that should visit AC DT and see how a small subscriber base fits a PvP game." "I'm really glad there are some on these forums who understand the importance of a website like mmorpg.com
I was losing some hope after reading comments like " all newbies from mmorpg.com must die "" see? i can do it to. pick out only the posts that make the thread sound good. there's a lot more on there, those ones came from about the first 15% of the entire thread.. i said it before.. there's idiots on the internet. they're on the darkfall forums, they're on mmorpg.com as well, you're not going to get away from them. how can you base your view on a 90,000 person population on the actions of a handful of people? make more blanket statements plz.
Yes relevant post ,I'm BruceC on Darkfall and this was my point on this post ...there were many people who defended and disagreed with some of the absurd statements made .Mike is really only showing a skewed view of the opinion
PS I like your signature picture on Darkfall...it rocks
Things can be tough at community forums, my 5 temporary bans and 1 warning should be proof of that.
It's a tribal thing. Remember all the WoW vs WAR vs AoC vs LOTRO threads ? And the All vs DF ? They even caught a AoC dev trolling on forumfall ones (tracked his IP back to Norway). It's based on one thing. Everyone wants to be right and no one wants to be wrong. It's like we want to be right based on as little information as possible. Let's stop this silly arguement and start looking forward to us getting a new skillbased, sandbox game.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
A lot of the people who post on those forums are tards. I've been following the game for 7 years, and checking in on the forums there, and they have always been tards for the most part. Some of the people are cool, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
One of the great thing about PvP games though. The more people you dislike, the more fun you have killing them. So tards make the game more fun. Think of it this way, if you play DF, you can go kill all these idiots and prove them wrong. Or you can not play the game and prove them right.
A lot of the people who post on those forums are tards. I've been following the game for 7 years, and checking in on the forums there, and they have always been tards for the most part. Some of the people are cool, but they are the exception rather than the rule. One of the great thing about PvP games though. The more people you dislike, the more fun you have killing them. So tards make the game more fun. Think of it this way, if you play DF, you can go kill all these idiots and prove them wrong. Or you can not play the game and prove them right.
You make an exellent point here. In Darkfall you might get a chance to hunt down idiotes. And thats more you can say to most other MMOs. In many you can have to stand thre and take all the crap, you cant to anything about ninja looting or anything.
In DF you can speak up for yourselve. And if you dont dare to speak up for yourselfe later ingame..thats your own peoblem.....and nothing you can blaim a game for.
Are you for real? Your bitchin about a few ppl in the community of DF lol. Your the Bitch not them... Who cares who else is playing a game lol, play the game because you have fun with it and like to play, play with your friends if you don't like these guys, and 10 ppl on the forums whaa whaa whaa you F-N carebear. This is DF its hardcore land if you can't take the smack talk you definatly can't take DF. And btw they are going for one server if they can, so these 10 ppl do not make up the whole of the community nor do they say how the game is going to be you tard...
USA has cereal killers does that make the USA a bad place to live? Hell every place has its cereal killers, doesn't mean the rest of the community are bad ppl or that the country sucks.
"Sticking with what works doesn't make good games, it remakes them, I quit playing that a while ago. After all, no artist got anywhere from repainting the Mona Lisa as a black women in a white dress...
It's about the paintin man, it's about the paintin..." -Goply
And exactly how does Darkfall fans dehyping other games differ from "Vaporware lolz"-trolls dehyping Darkfall? People crying about Darkfall community being immature seems to be the last effort of the Vaporware-trolls after we got new video and beta announcement.
im hyping darkfall because its the game ive been looking forward to for so long but im not going to dehype other games, darkfall if released with even half promised features will be an amazing game and theres no denying it
And we have no respect for you silly carebear. Get ready to be wtfpwned by our supa 1337 hyping skillz. You caring about what we do, just shows your true pussy carebear colours.
And exactly how does Darkfall fans dehyping other games differ from "Vaporware lolz"-trolls dehyping Darkfall? People crying about Darkfall community being immature seems to be the last effort of the Vaporware-trolls after we got new video and beta announcement.
There is no difference. People are bitter. Move on.
And we have no respect for you silly carebear. Get ready to be wtfpwned by our supa 1337 hyping skillz. You caring about what we do, just shows your true pussy carebear colours.
I don't know who this poster is referring to - but I quoted his post for the community to look at.
Maybe he is kidding? I hope so. Because if he is even slightly serious then your community and your game are in trouble.
Here's something for you to think about. I know many from Darkfall have already seen it:
Within the replies to that there is an (unusually) insightful post:
"isildur Says:
July 24, 2007 at 2:13 am
Note that I put ‘hardcore’ in ’scare quotes’ to indicate I was ’sneering’ at the term. Because the people who want fun competitive PvP are already playing fun competitive PvP, in GW and in WoW and in EVE. The people who want to gank are waiting for the Next Big Failure to come along, to let them grief noobs for a few months before it shrivels up and dies. This is because every sane developer has learned this lesson: griefing and ganking doesn’t just lose you the $15/mo from the person who was griefed. It has a multiplicative effect, creating an environment in your game, and a reputation outside your game, and people tend to steer clear. ‘Play to Crush’ as a selling point and marketing slogan probably lost SB twice the players it ended up bringing them.
...."
isildur, for those that don't know, works for Flying Lab Software as a designer on Pirates of the Burning Sea.
The people he is talking about don't care about your game, or any game for that matter.
They jump from game to game, often picking it up in the development stage. They establish themselves in the 'community' early on.
Their goal is to get the developer's ear and get into the (free) Beta - and dominate the Beta Forums.. They know what they want - they are very vocal. But they don't care about the game, the developer, or other players.
These players typically become known as "fanbois" - but whereas a true "fanboi" is loyal to the game and the developer - these people are not - not really.
(In Age of Conan they had perhaps their most stunning success ever - when Funcom made some of these Fanbois into Forum Moderators! - the results were predictable.)
All they care about is their e-peen. They want a few cheap thrills. They don't care if their actions drive people away from the game or even if it ultimately kills the game.
In relation to Pirates of the Burning Sea these people were well entrenched in the "community" more than a year before the game was released. They dominated the forums.
There was tacit moderator and developer support for them.
After all, it's kind of flattering to have a bunch of people who do nothing but praise you all the time?
It's great to have a community full of people who will back up every Dev Blog and shout down anyone who even dares to question any aspect of the design?
Threads that attempted to raise valid concerns were "fanboi flamed" and then locked as a result.
And then the game went live...
Six months on and isildur's words have come back to haunt him.
And where are the "fanbois"?
Well, almost without exception, they bailed (The handful of true loyalists who do care about the game stayed)
The rest moved on to the Next Big Failure (Age of Conan). Most of them were gone withing the first 3 months when the population started to fall - they ran out of people to gank - the "carebears" left and they had no-one to prey on but each other - but it seems they weren't hardcore enough for that?
"...Darkfall! YEAH! Totally see you in Darkfall, newb!..."
Recently a topic in the Pub was made about how the "hardcore" Darkfall fans were coming to this forum and hyping DF while trashing all of the other games; this has been proven: http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=66093 But this goes past the hyping of the game, this goes into the community that is DF. If you take the time just to read a bit of that thread, you will realize how rediculous the community is. I've never seen such hate towards a site, it is rediculous. It's almost comical how eilitist the community is. Here are some quotes to prove my point: "the higher it gets, the more people get interested, the more newbs we get to gank, the richer we get" "Darkfall will never have high ratings on a site that has LOTR online rated as the best MMORPG ever released. There are too many haters there that for some reason feel like DF threatens their happy little MMORPG community." "MMORPG.com is retarded.
I don't want them to like Darkfall, and I dont want them to play it." "It isn't, it means a group of retards likes DF" "Agreed.
MMORPG.com carebears = Our after-dinner snack."
Well, I think you all get my point. It really is funny how they think they're so "hardcore" when they're talking about a game. They have an attitude that makes them think they are better than everyone who has different tastes in games than them...it's kind of sad. Only one person there defended us, under the name Legolas. Kudos to you Legolas, whoever you are. You can also see Imbant and Aragon supporting the movement, oh well. I have no respect for the DF community. Coming over here and hyping it, they're elitist attiitude, they deserve no respect. I really didn't have much respect for them anyway, but this is rediculous. I never really hyped the game until no...., well, actually, I'll be dehyping it because of the actions that their community made. P.S. Anyone want to post this on the DF forums for me?
"I disagree.
More cannonfodder could make Darkfall more enjoyable to the rest of us. I say jack up the hype meter, let them come. We will feast on their noobness."
"To those who want MMORPG.com ppl to paly as cannonfodder for their uber1337 pvp skills.
You are fucking carebears,
yes you are, because you would rather go kill newbs and be uber1337 while acting all though against these 'newbs' than actually face a challenge.
Yes you guys are carebears. go die." "yep. Inside every (ok not every) carebear is a snorting beast just itching to kill. Trying out DF could wake a few up, get em to take the blue pill"
Well your right about a small group who are silly kids and make these remarks about other players who mostly come here, but im also a hardcore follower of darkfall, and i still come here.
I dont agree with them ive manytimes made topics here just to explain what darkfall is all about, not all have elitists attitude's.
And you know what, many of these so called hardcore elitist pk's are crybaby'ss themselfs, ive played AC,AC2 and shadowbane when they lose they whine even harder then carebears:P
But i undertsnad you dont have much respect for people like that, but not all hardcore are like them, im surtenly not:).
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I just realised something. The very fact there are so many entrenched "hardcore Darkfall fans" as the OP calls them is evidence of a very good community. Flamers, trolls, etc, are even more evidence.
Gaming communities die without drama and flamefests, I've seen it. On one game I sued to play, the community was very small, and as such, very organised. It was also very dedicated. There was a lot of drama and "clan wars" in the community, and a lot of flames....However, eventually the community moved on to a single site for all their flaming activity. The admins of the site put in harsher and harsher measures over time, and all flaming/clan wars ceased.
The community eventually also ceased, despite the game being fairly modern and fun to play.
As I said, drama, flamers, and entrenched veteran fans are evidence of a good, unique community, as opposed to a bland generic one.
The amount of people who have been mobilised to hype the game is also evidence - evidence of Darkfall's gigantic dedicated fanbase.
I just realised something. The very fact there are so many entrenched "hardcore Darkfall fans" as the OP calls them is evidence of a very good community. Flamers, trolls, etc, are even more evidence. Gaming communities die without drama and flamefests, I've seen it. On one game I sued to play, the community was very small, and as such, very organised. It was also very dedicated. There was a lot of drama and "clan wars" in the community, and a lot of flames....However, eventually the community moved on to a single site for all their flaming activity. The admins of the site put in harsher and harsher measures over time, and all flaming/clan wars ceased. The community eventually also ceased, despite the game being fairly modern and fun to play. As I said, drama, flamers, and entrenched veteran fans are evidence of a good, unique community, as opposed to a bland generic one. The amount of people who have been mobilised to hype the game is also evidence - evidence of Darkfall's gigantic dedicated fanbase.
Drama is only good if it has a counter balance. If something degenerates into nothing BUT drama, its equally as devastating. Most people just want to hop in and enjoy their free time (I know I do, mine is really limited, and as such...has placed me into loving CoX more than anything out right now). I'd really like the open and living world DF talks about. I'd love to always be able to venture out and be unable to expect what mobs will be there. I love suprise, and exploration.
The issue here becomes one where the most zealous of the crowd begin to overtake the very soul of the game. See...the things about DF that I would love become empty and useless when the game degenerates into nothing more than noob smashing. I've been turned away from many a good sandbox over it...and its always because no one ever takes the time to actually think about how to make a game managable for such players.
But, ignoring the very obvious amounts of PKing that will go on, and how badly it will destroy the games influx of new players (which is essential to breathing life, and money, into the game to sustain it), having only the massive drama whores control the game means that, even should one get into a structure for a guild to bypass the PK and enjoy the game, they then have to assuredly deal with daily pointless drama layered over top of what would otherwise be a great gaming experience.
In-game there will always be a counter balance. As it's a sandbox, you can create any counter-organisation that you want.(in your case, anti-griefers?)
I'm talking about the forums, however, and the community in general, not their behavior in-game. Darkfall has one of the best communities I've ever seen, trolls included. I'll even say that the trolls on the Darkfall forums put the trolls of the WoW forums to shame (except perhaps Slinkie)
You know, I love the game's concept, but I do see a lot of people excited about how they're going to destroy all the people who've upset them.
Personally I think that's a little sad, not because I'm a carebear, but rather because I think it's a ominus omen of what may come on opening day.
I'm all for the constant threat of violence, don't get me wrong, but I feel the price of failure and the risk of the unknown will keep many of these hardcore PKrs from trying to slaughter everything in sight.
I think many of the so called "hardcore" players will be in for a rude awakening on opening day, not because the game is bad, but rather because it's actually very good. The unstopable uber character of past MMO's won't exist here, and I doubt many griefers will stick around to play because they'll end up being the ones getting looted just as frequently as they're the ones doing the looting.
Perhaps I'm wrong. I suppose maybe one day we'll see.
... I'm talking about the forums, however, and the community in general, not their behavior in-game. Darkfall has one of the best communities I've ever seen, trolls included. I'll even say that the trolls on the Darkfall forums put the trolls of the WoW forums to shame (except perhaps Slinkie)
I think you will find (as I have said) that the behaviour on the forums will translate directly to the behaviour in the game when it goes live.
And while game mechanics (or lack thereof) are a big part of the problem (and the solution) the community can make a big difference too.
Comments
OP, when making an impression about a community, you are just considering a few of the members that we as the "mature" Darkfall community tend to ignore, or dismiss.
There are hardcore "old school" UO fans like me who respect and welcome the new comers by introducing the game the best way they can among that community that you address in your post.
Try to be a little more objective when making threads. Thanks!
I for one am glad to see a community that is working together before a game even comes out. Better than most with everyone at each others throats.
Yup this has been said time and time again, but they wont listen. Even beyond that...the forums dont even represent what the community will be like on release. The people who post in a regular fashion on the offficial boards may represent 1 or 2 percent of the subscription base if it releases well and catches on. Remember im talking about the forum members who post a lot, not the lurkers, not the people who just registered, and not the people who only post once in a blue moon.
But hey anything to put DF in a bad light right? They cant call it vaporware anymore (unless they really stretch the definition to the point where all games are vaporware until they release), and they are running out of steam on the graphics front after many people have realized that the graphics are more than fine. So now i guess it is on to bashing the community.
Eventually it will be "DF only has so many subcribers, not anywhere near what WAR or WoW has, so clearly that means it is bad".
it really is fun watchin them waste time in these forums trying to convince others, thinking that people are actually taking into account what they say.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
Ya, there might be some harsh words tossed around on the forums, but it's not everyone. At least with darkfall, if you see someone you don't like from the forums in game, you can pretty much do what you want with them without having to challenge him and hope he accepts or meet him at a battleground or anything like that.
If you really don't like him, level his city
Mike.......I usually have a lot of respect for you as you usually at least make some good points but this... I read the thread you are talking about over at the DF forum and nowhere does the OP in that thread even suggest that anyone should de-hype any other games. He only tells them to come and hype Darkfall. This is something I've seen done in almost every game's forum that I've followed in development. This is not unusual even a little bit. You have come on here and accused others of being "elitists" in a very elitist way. This paints you in a very bad light. 8 or even 100 comments from a forum hardly is representative of an entire community and to base your assumptions from that is arrogant at best. Just calm down buddy and wait for the game to release. That is the only way we will all see if it's worth all of the hype.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Mike, why do you feel so threatened by the DF community?
Well, well,
I just found this thread linked back from the Darkfall thread, linked from the pub thread here that is now locked - if you follow that?
Anyway, Darkfall community, you have a bad element there.
I stand by my comments to imbant (posts 76 and 80.) Coming up to Beta, you really want to get on top of this.
There will be Beta Testers who will make valid criticisms of Darkfall. It is important that they be permitted to do so.
They may well be wrong, then again they may have valid points and concerns.
If you want to see what happens when Fanbois rule a Beta Test? - I suggest you visit the Pirates of the Burning Sea forums.
Many of the issues that FLS are now attempting to address were well known and raised during the Beta Phase. Many of the issues raised then were shouted down as "dead horse" issues by a small number of very vocal fanbois, repeatedly.
Those issues now plague the game.
If you want Darkfall to be the game you all hope it can be, and give it the best possible chance at success, your community is the place to start.
Yeah, the MMORPG.com boards have their fair share of trolls - but MMORPG.com is not a developer - they can't do much real damage here.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Yes relevant post ,I'm BruceC on Darkfall and this was my point on this post ...there were many people who defended and disagreed with some of the absurd statements made .Mike is really only showing a skewed view of the opinion
PS I like your signature picture on Darkfall...it rocks
"after the time of dice came the day of mice "
Things can be tough at community forums, my 5 temporary bans and 1 warning should be proof of that.
It's a tribal thing. Remember all the WoW vs WAR vs AoC vs LOTRO threads ? And the All vs DF ? They even caught a AoC dev trolling on forumfall ones (tracked his IP back to Norway). It's based on one thing. Everyone wants to be right and no one wants to be wrong. It's like we want to be right based on as little information as possible. Let's stop this silly arguement and start looking forward to us getting a new skillbased, sandbox game.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
A lot of the people who post on those forums are tards. I've been following the game for 7 years, and checking in on the forums there, and they have always been tards for the most part. Some of the people are cool, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
One of the great thing about PvP games though. The more people you dislike, the more fun you have killing them. So tards make the game more fun. Think of it this way, if you play DF, you can go kill all these idiots and prove them wrong. Or you can not play the game and prove them right.
Ofcourse we hate you. You have been screaming VAPORWARE for the couple of years.
You make an exellent point here. In Darkfall you might get a chance to hunt down idiotes. And thats more you can say to most other MMOs. In many you can have to stand thre and take all the crap, you cant to anything about ninja looting or anything.
In DF you can speak up for yourselve. And if you dont dare to speak up for yourselfe later ingame..thats your own peoblem.....and nothing you can blaim a game for.
Are you for real? Your bitchin about a few ppl in the community of DF lol. Your the Bitch not them... Who cares who else is playing a game lol, play the game because you have fun with it and like to play, play with your friends if you don't like these guys, and 10 ppl on the forums whaa whaa whaa you F-N carebear. This is DF its hardcore land if you can't take the smack talk you definatly can't take DF. And btw they are going for one server if they can, so these 10 ppl do not make up the whole of the community nor do they say how the game is going to be you tard...
USA has cereal killers does that make the USA a bad place to live? Hell every place has its cereal killers, doesn't mean the rest of the community are bad ppl or that the country sucks.
"Sticking with what works doesn't make good games, it remakes them, I quit playing that a while ago.
After all, no artist got anywhere from repainting the Mona Lisa as a black women in a white dress...
It's about the paintin man, it's about the paintin..." -Goply
And exactly how does Darkfall fans dehyping other games differ from "Vaporware lolz"-trolls dehyping Darkfall? People crying about Darkfall community being immature seems to be the last effort of the Vaporware-trolls after we got new video and beta announcement.
if you like cornflakes for breakfast it kinda sucks.
Khael[SUN]
SUN - peekayin since pong
Webdeveloper on:
http://www.guildofsun.com
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com
im hyping darkfall because its the game ive been looking forward to for so long but im not going to dehype other games, darkfall if released with even half promised features will be an amazing game and theres no denying it
And we have no respect for you silly carebear. Get ready to be wtfpwned by our supa 1337 hyping skillz. You caring about what we do, just shows your true pussy carebear colours.
There is no difference. People are bitter. Move on.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
I don't know who this poster is referring to - but I quoted his post for the community to look at.
Maybe he is kidding? I hope so. Because if he is even slightly serious then your community and your game are in trouble.
Here's something for you to think about. I know many from Darkfall have already seen it:
http://brokentoys.org/2007/07/23/see-you-in-ultima-online-no-shadowbane-uh-daoc-hey-swg-wait-horizons-vanguard-darkfall-yeah-totally-see-you-in-darkfall-newb/
Within the replies to that there is an (unusually) insightful post:
"isildur Says:
July 24, 2007 at 2:13 am
Note that I put ‘hardcore’ in ’scare quotes’ to indicate I was ’sneering’ at the term. Because the people who want fun competitive PvP are already playing fun competitive PvP, in GW and in WoW and in EVE. The people who want to gank are waiting for the Next Big Failure to come along, to let them grief noobs for a few months before it shrivels up and dies. This is because every sane developer has learned this lesson: griefing and ganking doesn’t just lose you the $15/mo from the person who was griefed. It has a multiplicative effect, creating an environment in your game, and a reputation outside your game, and people tend to steer clear. ‘Play to Crush’ as a selling point and marketing slogan probably lost SB twice the players it ended up bringing them.
...."
isildur, for those that don't know, works for Flying Lab Software as a designer on Pirates of the Burning Sea.
The people he is talking about don't care about your game, or any game for that matter.
They jump from game to game, often picking it up in the development stage. They establish themselves in the 'community' early on.
Their goal is to get the developer's ear and get into the (free) Beta - and dominate the Beta Forums.. They know what they want - they are very vocal. But they don't care about the game, the developer, or other players.
These players typically become known as "fanbois" - but whereas a true "fanboi" is loyal to the game and the developer - these people are not - not really.
(In Age of Conan they had perhaps their most stunning success ever - when Funcom made some of these Fanbois into Forum Moderators! - the results were predictable.)
All they care about is their e-peen. They want a few cheap thrills. They don't care if their actions drive people away from the game or even if it ultimately kills the game.
In relation to Pirates of the Burning Sea these people were well entrenched in the "community" more than a year before the game was released. They dominated the forums.
There was tacit moderator and developer support for them.
After all, it's kind of flattering to have a bunch of people who do nothing but praise you all the time?
It's great to have a community full of people who will back up every Dev Blog and shout down anyone who even dares to question any aspect of the design?
Threads that attempted to raise valid concerns were "fanboi flamed" and then locked as a result.
And then the game went live...
Six months on and isildur's words have come back to haunt him.
And where are the "fanbois"?
Well, almost without exception, they bailed (The handful of true loyalists who do care about the game stayed)
The rest moved on to the Next Big Failure (Age of Conan). Most of them were gone withing the first 3 months when the population started to fall - they ran out of people to gank - the "carebears" left and they had no-one to prey on but each other - but it seems they weren't hardcore enough for that?
"...Darkfall! YEAH! Totally see you in Darkfall, newb!..."
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Well your right about a small group who are silly kids and make these remarks about other players who mostly come here, but im also a hardcore follower of darkfall, and i still come here.
I dont agree with them ive manytimes made topics here just to explain what darkfall is all about, not all have elitists attitude's.
And you know what, many of these so called hardcore elitist pk's are crybaby'ss themselfs, ive played AC,AC2 and shadowbane when they lose they whine even harder then carebears:P
But i undertsnad you dont have much respect for people like that, but not all hardcore are like them, im surtenly not:).
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I just realised something. The very fact there are so many entrenched "hardcore Darkfall fans" as the OP calls them is evidence of a very good community. Flamers, trolls, etc, are even more evidence.
Gaming communities die without drama and flamefests, I've seen it. On one game I sued to play, the community was very small, and as such, very organised. It was also very dedicated. There was a lot of drama and "clan wars" in the community, and a lot of flames....However, eventually the community moved on to a single site for all their flaming activity. The admins of the site put in harsher and harsher measures over time, and all flaming/clan wars ceased.
The community eventually also ceased, despite the game being fairly modern and fun to play.
As I said, drama, flamers, and entrenched veteran fans are evidence of a good, unique community, as opposed to a bland generic one.
The amount of people who have been mobilised to hype the game is also evidence - evidence of Darkfall's gigantic dedicated fanbase.
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Darkfall wins. Vaportrolls lose.
Drama is only good if it has a counter balance. If something degenerates into nothing BUT drama, its equally as devastating. Most people just want to hop in and enjoy their free time (I know I do, mine is really limited, and as such...has placed me into loving CoX more than anything out right now). I'd really like the open and living world DF talks about. I'd love to always be able to venture out and be unable to expect what mobs will be there. I love suprise, and exploration.
The issue here becomes one where the most zealous of the crowd begin to overtake the very soul of the game. See...the things about DF that I would love become empty and useless when the game degenerates into nothing more than noob smashing. I've been turned away from many a good sandbox over it...and its always because no one ever takes the time to actually think about how to make a game managable for such players.
But, ignoring the very obvious amounts of PKing that will go on, and how badly it will destroy the games influx of new players (which is essential to breathing life, and money, into the game to sustain it), having only the massive drama whores control the game means that, even should one get into a structure for a guild to bypass the PK and enjoy the game, they then have to assuredly deal with daily pointless drama layered over top of what would otherwise be a great gaming experience.
In-game there will always be a counter balance. As it's a sandbox, you can create any counter-organisation that you want.(in your case, anti-griefers?)
I'm talking about the forums, however, and the community in general, not their behavior in-game. Darkfall has one of the best communities I've ever seen, trolls included. I'll even say that the trolls on the Darkfall forums put the trolls of the WoW forums to shame (except perhaps Slinkie
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Darkfall wins. Vaportrolls lose.
You know, I love the game's concept, but I do see a lot of people excited about how they're going to destroy all the people who've upset them.
Personally I think that's a little sad, not because I'm a carebear, but rather because I think it's a ominus omen of what may come on opening day.
I'm all for the constant threat of violence, don't get me wrong, but I feel the price of failure and the risk of the unknown will keep many of these hardcore PKrs from trying to slaughter everything in sight.
I think many of the so called "hardcore" players will be in for a rude awakening on opening day, not because the game is bad, but rather because it's actually very good. The unstopable uber character of past MMO's won't exist here, and I doubt many griefers will stick around to play because they'll end up being the ones getting looted just as frequently as they're the ones doing the looting.
Perhaps I'm wrong. I suppose maybe one day we'll see.
I think you will find (as I have said) that the behaviour on the forums will translate directly to the behaviour in the game when it goes live.
And while game mechanics (or lack thereof) are a big part of the problem (and the solution) the community can make a big difference too.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.