I have stopped playing. I don't complain or post in official forums. I listen, read, research, and make decisions. There is a quote is someone's profile to the this effect: I do not need to know how to design a game, (or in this case what's 'best' for the game) all I need to know how to do is hit the cancel button.
I voted against the direction of the game by cancelling my subcription. Not because I think that I know better, or that my arrogance knows no bounds, but because it simply becomes un-fun. It is no longer a game that I am interested in for my personal entertainment purposes.
And was it because of the introduction of the Rune-Keeper? Yes, but not primarily in the aspect one would immiedetly assume. It breaks trust.
Yes, I did read it. Twice. There is still no reason why there is a nuking class in middle earth, regardless of where one argues that power comes from. Which I feel is sort of silly as it's "magic'. It doesn't exist but there is of course a sort of method to how it might be possible for it to exist. To me the Minst is almost an exact analogue to the Runekeeper. We know from the books that songs could be incredibly powerfull in Middle Earth. There is one story where an elf maiden sings a demi-god and his entire castle to sleep. That is the main reason I as OK with Minst when I first started playing. Even if no-one in the LoTR weilds Minst level "song power," we know from the books it's possible.
We also know from several references in the books that words and language hold great power. For example, think of when Gandalf was trying to open the gate to Moria. He was just saying different words. And he said (I'm paraphrasing) "I once knew all the spells of opening in the tongues of orcs, elves, and men." I other words, orcs and elves and men can learn words that have real effects on the world. Although exactly what effects that are possible we don't know from the books.
Minstels don't nuke (as far as I know!) and Lore masters utilize simple science for their attacks. Which is about as much as I was willing to stretch. How can "simple science" focus earth tremors on a spot, or summon gusts of wind strong enough to do AoE damage? Even modern science can't do that. And whether a minst is "really nuking" or not, they have a lot of abilities with showy effects that hit for a crap ton of damage. So "no" I didn't get pissed and leave when they gave the LM what the LM had but I wasn't happy with it. I am more "not happy" with the Rune Keeper. I have to apologize here. I didn't realize you were a current player, and I was overgereneralzing. To be sure, there are a few players that are still ticked about the Runekeeper. Just check the official forums to see that :-) However, to me it seems like the subset of humans that A. were willing to accept the Loremaster, and B. are so upset over the Runekeeper that they feel LoTRO will "Jump the Shark" when MoM comes out has to be small. That is the main point I was trying to make. Apologies for singling you out.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Yes, I did read it. Twice. There is still no reason why there is a nuking class in middle earth, regardless of where one argues that power comes from. Which I feel is sort of silly as it's "magic'. It doesn't exist but there is of course a sort of method to how it might be possible for it to exist. To me the Minst is almost an exact analogue to the Runekeeper. We know from the books that songs could be incredibly powerfull in Middle Earth. There is one story where an elf maiden sings a demi-god and his entire castle to sleep. That is the main reason I as OK with Minst when I first started playing. Even if no-one in the LoTR weilds Minst level "song power," we know from the books it's possible.
We also know from several references in the books that words and language hold great power. For example, think of when Gandalf was trying to open the gate to Moria. He was just saying different words. And he said (I'm paraphrasing) "I once knew all the spells of opening in the tongues of orcs, elves, and men." I other words, orcs and elves and men can learn words that have real effects on the world. Although exactly what effects that are possible we don't know from the books.
Minstels don't nuke (as far as I know!) and Lore masters utilize simple science for their attacks. Which is about as much as I was willing to stretch. How can "simple science" focus earth tremors on a spot, or summon gusts of wind strong enough to do AoE damage? Even modern science can't do that. And whether a minst is "really nuking" or not, they have a lot of abilities with showy effects that hit for a crap ton of damage. So "no" I didn't get pissed and leave when they gave the LM what the LM had but I wasn't happy with it. I am more "not happy" with the Rune Keeper. I have to apologize here. I didn't realize you were a current player, and I was overgereneralzing. To be sure, there are a few players that are still ticked about the Runekeeper. Just check the official forums to see that :-) However, to me it seems like the subset of humans that A. were willing to accept the Loremaster, and B. are so upset over the Runekeeper that they feel LoTRO will "Jump the Shark" when MoM comes out has to be small. That is the main point I was trying to make. Apologies for singling you out.
Then you misunderstand. I don't have a problem with earth shattering "magics".
I have a problem with how they manifest themselves and I will once again state "there are no nukers in middle earth.
I have no problem with language or runes being used I have no problem with song being used. I have no problem with the rivers being controlled (well by characters who have the power to such as Elrond) I have no problem with Blinding the enemies with purest light or even setting something on fire.
So once again. There are no nukers in middle earth. Never happened. Gandalf who is arguably one of the most power beings in middle earth never EVER once let lightning flow from his fingertips or fireballs fly from the sky. You would think if he would do this at least once during the entire saga no?
Why is this understanding so hard? Players who don't like this direction of the game have no problem with great power it's how it is manifested and to a certain extent "who" has that power.
And yes I agree, minstrels should not be magically hitting for a crap load of damage nor should lore masters. The lighting effects are just that, effects. An artists interpretation of what the player sees. It's stretching it more than I like but I just put up with it.
But lightning from the hands to nuke your enemies is too far. Quite frankly the others are too far as well.
So "no" I don't like it and if it comes to the point where it bothers me "too much" I will just play a high fantasy game that does it and does it better.
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Regarding claim that noone calls Lightning in the Books
In the books you get to read a comment about the battle at Weathertop where Gandalf gets attacked by the Nazgul that lightning struck and there was great fires to be seen. It's fairly obvious that Gandalf used some pretty standard destructive magic there. Of course, he's Istari. Doesn't mean much.
Also in the Hobbit, he used fire to scare off the wolves.
Regarding Minstrels being Lore-breaking
Can't understand this one myself to be honest. Music is shown through all Tolkiens work to be having power over its surroundings and many seem to build their power upon this. Add to this the brilliant idea to use 'Morale'. All a Minstrel does is effect the morale of an enemy or someone of their own. They don't magically mend wounds, they lift their spirits again so they can continue fighting. They don't scream so loud it hurts the enemy, they use their voices to instill fear and doubt. Heck, the last part is even true about real life so why not in Middle-Earth?
Regarding Rune-keepers being Lore-breaking
This one is more in the borderline in my opinion but as the developers mention in their last journal, I don't think it is neccessarily that bad. Runes in themselves are fairly powerful in Tolkiens work, Dwarves are suppossed to use runes for much of their work and we all know the effect of the Gates of Moria and the likes. Their abilities seem to enter the type of magic that only Istari should have access too.
To limit the races to Dwarves and Elves are wise since Tolkien has described them both as having certain powers. Just read about Finrod, Glorfindel at the River or many many smaller things where the elves seem to bend the world around them to acomodate some need. Magic in its classic form is perhaps not included in Middle-Earth, but in its basic form it is very much a part of it.
With all this said, I would still preferred to have seen the classes being more towards the normal type rather than the magic-user type. Minstrel would still work and Lore-master could be taken down to earth and more focused on what its name suggests, with alchemy and such. Rune-keeper could be made to work I guess, but it would be hard.
In the end, I would say that it is the same with this as with everything else done in Middle-Earth. You have to consider letting go off some of the lore in order to get the product working. The movies could not have been made into an exact copy without failing, and I think they did a pretty good job. This game is anyway catching the feeling of LoTR and that's what I think is the most important thing. They have really made you feel like you are part of the world and despite having to break some lore they do seem to me like fans as well as developers. Just think about the Third Age made to Xbox (where you end up killing Sauron) or the old cartooned movies (where Boromir was a classic nord barbarian). It could have been a lot worse.
Regarding claim that noone calls Lightning in the Books
In the books you get to read a comment about the battle at Weathertop where Gandalf gets attacked by the Nazgul that lightning struck and there was great fires to be seen. It's fairly obvious that Gandalf used some pretty standard destructive magic there. Of course, he's Istari. Doesn't mean much.
Also in the Hobbit, he used fire to scare off the wolves.
Regarding Minstrels being Lore-breaking
Can't understand this one myself to be honest. Music is shown through all Tolkiens work to be having power over its surroundings and many seem to build their power upon this. Add to this the brilliant idea to use 'Morale'. All a Minstrel does is effect the morale of an enemy or someone of their own. They don't magically mend wounds, they lift their spirits again so they can continue fighting. They don't scream so loud it hurts the enemy, they use their voices to instill fear and doubt. Heck, the last part is even true about real life so why not in Middle-Earth?
Regarding Rune-keepers being Lore-breaking
This one is more in the borderline in my opinion but as the developers mention in their last journal, I don't think it is neccessarily that bad. Runes in themselves are fairly powerful in Tolkiens work, Dwarves are suppossed to use runes for much of their work and we all know the effect of the Gates of Moria and the likes. Their abilities seem to enter the type of magic that only Istari should have access too.
To limit the races to Dwarves and Elves are wise since Tolkien has described them both as having certain powers. Just read about Finrod, Glorfindel at the River or many many smaller things where the elves seem to bend the world around them to acomodate some need. Magic in its classic form is perhaps not included in Middle-Earth, but in its basic form it is very much a part of it.
With all this said, I would still preferred to have seen the classes being more towards the normal type rather than the magic-user type. Minstrel would still work and Lore-master could be taken down to earth and more focused on what its name suggests, with alchemy and such. Rune-keeper could be made to work I guess, but it would be hard.
In the end, I would say that it is the same with this as with everything else done in Middle-Earth. You have to consider letting go off some of the lore in order to get the product working. The movies could not have been made into an exact copy without failing, and I think they did a pretty good job. This game is anyway catching the feeling of LoTR and that's what I think is the most important thing. They have really made you feel like you are part of the world and despite having to break some lore they do seem to me like fans as well as developers. Just think about the Third Age made to Xbox (where you end up killing Sauron) or the old cartooned movies (where Boromir was a classic nord barbarian). It could have been a lot worse.
I agree with most of this post and "THANK YOU" for noting that Gandalf was Istari.
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The ability of the source of power is written into the lore : Gandalf raised his staff and there was a roll of thunder and a flash of lightning, and Grima fell to the ground.
That's great. And reminds me I have to reread the books.
Gandalf was Istari.
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I have decided not to choose this title because of the changes I seen coming. I for one feel bad for players who have chosen the hunter and the minstreal. There is a class coming that can do both just with some sort of a cool down. That is poor design in my opinion unless all your classes in a game can multi role. I also find it odd to have a ram/yak for travel in the mines. Why do developers always ruin games when expansions come along? It seems they all veer away from original game design. I didn' t think LOTRO would do it on the first expansion. They should refund the players' money that chose to life time subscribe because they made false promises of sticking to the lore. This is all my opinions and are not facts. I am just so confused to why MMORPGs do this when it has potential of making old players leave and possibly will not attract new players.
Saying that Rune Keeper is the same as a Hunter and a Ministrel is like saying that Hunters should get a refund in WOW because Mages do damage and Priests shuold get a refund because Druids can also heal.
As far as lore goes, this isn't any worse than any other lore break they've done. I don't think you should base your decision on people screaming in the forums because they don't like the RK.
I actually quit WoW because they butchered the class roles in the game, in my opinion WoW jumped the shark with the release of their first expansion. I don't play LOTRO but I can imagine this will be even worse. This class requires no cost to switch build, it is done on a cool down.
Also I don't know how you can make a comparison of what I wrote and WoW Hunters and Mages. Do mages fill two rolls? As far as I know, they both are dps classes.
Yes they are both DPS classes but it seemed like your point was that having another DPS class made it so there is no reason to play the original DPS class. Hunters have a different role than the Rune Keeper, just like Hunters have a different role than Mages in WOW. The fact that the RK can also heal (with HOTs) doesn't make the Hunter obsolete.
1. While Gandalf was certainly and honest to christ nuker, what he or any of the five Wizards could do is pretty much irrelevant. Players should not ever have access to that kind of power.
2. I think the Minsteral and the Loremaster stretch the lore pretty hard, but in my mind they don't break it.
3. I think that the Runekeeper is also going to be a stretch. However, I just don't see it (on paper) as any more of stretch than the Minst or the LM. Another class that plays as if they are using magic, but has some some justification based on the books. We have two already, I don't think a third will hurt as long as Turbine handles it well.
Of course it does depend on how well Turbine handles the class. I'm assuming Turbine will have the common sense to not have the class play like a WoW Mage or a EQ Wizard. In early interviews that's exactly what it sounded like were were getting, and I was up at arms as well. However to me the Runekeeper described in that article sounds a lot more tame than that.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
The only people who play LOTRO are hardcore fanboys anyways. That game doesnt have any endgame at all, just a huge grindfest and OK PvE. But all the PvE is designed to be played solo so why not just go play a GOOD RPG. It doesnt matter what they do their player base will eat it up. Trust me though, if you have a special place in your heart for Tolkiens lord of the rings, dont let this game ruin that image for you.
No end game? Oh ye of little knowledge.
And there is a lot to do other than solo, that is an ignorant statement which makes me believe you don't know the game. Alas I wish if peopel were going to have an opinion on something they would at least have knowledge of what they're talking of first.
ok to all you ppl who think LOTRO is "jumping the shark" I am a LOTR fan. But im actualy happy about The druid class...since well NO ONE REALY WANTS TO PLAY MINSTREAL...sure they are fun but its a pain. Pluse they will never be replced 100% since they have buffs that we need it will work out just shut up and watch. If you dont like it then go play warhammer lol. and rune keeper is a magic DPS class that can use some support. Its to give ppl a choice.
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I have decided not to choose this title because of the changes I seen coming. I for one feel bad for players who have chosen the hunter and the minstreal. There is a class coming that can do both just with some sort of a cool down. That is poor design in my opinion unless all your classes in a game can multi role. I also find it odd to have a ram/yak for travel in the mines. Why do developers always ruin games when expansions come along? It seems they all veer away from original game design. I didn' t think LOTRO would do it on the first expansion. They should refund the players' money that chose to life time subscribe because they made false promises of sticking to the lore. This is all my opinions and are not facts. I am just so confused to why MMORPGs do this when it has potential of making old players leave and possibly will not attract new players.
so you don't play lotro; but based upon your hours and hours of not playing lotro, you're making posts about how an expansion will ruin the game?
really?
wow.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I have read the LotR books and seen the movies and i honostly don't care if the game takes another track now and then. In fact, i like suprises and it's only fun to not knowing what's going to happend next. If it would stick to the books/movies lore to 100%, then it woulden't be as exciting because you already know what's going to happen.
As long as the story is good, i don't care what they do with it. (Except adding some space-aliens...)
The only people who play LOTRO are hardcore fanboys anyways. That game doesnt have any endgame at all, just a huge grindfest and OK PvE. But all the PvE is designed to be played solo so why not just go play a GOOD RPG. It doesnt matter what they do their player base will eat it up.
That is a generalization that would probably piss-off a fair number of people. I'm not pissed off - I'm fairly easying going - but I will say I play LOTRO and that description doesn't fit me. There are a whole host of things I would have rather seen in LOTRO (or Middle-Earth Online) but we have what LOTRO is... and what it is, in my opinion, is a solid game. So, I play it and enjoy it. But it's not "perfect".
I think there's a whole host of players not too happy with the Rune Keeper decision, so not everybody that plays will be eating it up. Nor is the PvE content exclusively solo... just a good percentage of it.
My feelings about the Rune Keeper have fluctuated. I was particularly cynical after hearing that comment by Jeffery Steefle, who basically admitted the decision put more value on including a particular class/playstyle for the sake of being a game than it did the IP lore. That was an unfortunate statement because it turned me off to the idea of the class.
However, after reading the dev diary discussing the class, I'm much more receptive to the idea, and I really think the attunement mechanic could be fun.
Check out my LOTRO Blog: www.middleearthadventurer.blogspot.com
Nice to see that logicbox9 have taken over Openedge1s role of being full-time hater of LotrO now Every expansion brings changes to games... Some people dont like change and will whine about anything! LotrO is the best PvE MMO out right now and Mines of Moria will most probably make it even better!
Feel free to call me a hater, because I pretty much dislike LoTRO now... however, I posted a quote from the exec. producer... the developer diary did nothing to make the lore fans think that this class is not lore-breaking... you can put lipstick on a mage and call it a rune-keeper, but it's still a mage... but hey, if you are cool with generic fantasy lightning zaps, nice...
There is literally thousands of posts on the official forums about this, there are hundreds about broken promises from Turbine, when they stated they would never add magic and only stray from the lore when it was absolutely necessary from a gameplay perspective (you need a healer in this game, so MInstrel it is)... LM skill descriptions aren't bad, I think most lore-freak get mad at the animations... but what part of adding a mage class is absolutely necessary... it's absolutely not, and it's just a feeble attempt at Turbine to bolster some more subs from people who play the thousands of other generic MMOs. Where in the books did a dwarf or elf zap a monster with lightning from it's fingers? Gandalf didn't even do it. IMO, this game very much jumped the shark, just because you love it and have tons of fun doesn't mean it didn't. I'ts a slippery slope, and in the end Turbine will do more injustice to the Tolkien experience than anyone else...
You have to temper all that - in any kind of entertainment - books, movies, games, music, etc. - with the fact that many people have a very unjustified and unreasonable sense of entitlement. Somehow because they're playing the game (or reading the book, or listening to the CD, etc), they feel that it should cater specifically to them - what they expect, what they want, etc.
When it doesn't deliver on their expectations of what it "should be" or what it "should do" or how it "should have ended", etc. they feel betrayed, say the given product failed, the creators sold out, etc. etc.
Or they have been banned from the forums for asking reasonable performance related questions. Case in point FAILCOM...
Some will say "they don't listen to the players", which is really just saying "I said I wanted this, and they didn't do it". People need to temper that with this, self-evident bit of knowledge:
Sometimes this is true - I give you FAILCOM.
Players will typically ask for changes that benefit the class they happen to be playing, regardless of how it affects others, what impact it has on content, etc. Turbine has to make changes that will benefit many... not only the most vocal select few.
Right now I think Turbine is struggling with the fact that people bought lifetime subs and the revenue stream is going to depend entirely on the expansion packs. Since most companies get at most 20% of each box sold, not sure how they will do this - but hey - more power to em.
The incredible amount of ignorance and arrogance displayed by many who believe they somehow know better how to develop a game than people who have spent years doing so speaks well enough for itself.
How dare people demand more or better from the ALL KNOWING developers.. FEED THESE FREE THINKERS TO THE ORCS!
That these people can then post on forums and share their ignorance/arrogance with the rest of us just adds insult to injury.
Well Im responding to your post give me time. And dude dont put your self down. Youre not THAT arrogant in this post, just terribly.
When Turbine, or any game developer, makes decisions, they're not just made willy-nilly, nor in a vacuum. In LoTRO's case, they have to pass everything they do by Tolkien Ent. So, agree or disagree all you want, if Tolkien approves it and finds it doesn't "bend the lore" beyond acceptable limits, then who is anyone else to say otherwise?
In short... People need to get over themselves, realize their opinions aren't sacred and their expectations aren't law.
You included.
Turbine will do what they feel is best for the game. If they're right, great. If they're wrong, then they change things as necessary.
Wow blind faith in an MMO company - here a few years ago this required a deity.
So far, all indications are - cries of the attention-starved few notwithstanding - they're doing a fine job of it.
OMG, I wish I was a Turbine employee!
My above edits are there cause I was just so offended by this holier than thou crap, I had to post or puke.
Normally before I post on a thread, I would read what has been written before.
However, as I am meant to be writing My Best Man's Speech (for a wedding tomorrow - and dreading it!) I shall just get to the point.
I understand the the reference 'jumping the shark' pertains to a later episode of Happy Days when The Fonze did a ludicrous stunt by waterskiing over a ramp, and 'jumping the shark'!
The term was then adopted by production companies to express when their programme had went past it's peak audience, and therefore loosing ratings, and due to be dumped by the execs.
Applying it to a successful MMO, that is just about to receive its first ground-breaking expansion, is a wonderful example of how stupid you are.
Are you a troll? I hope so, then I can kick yer butt in the game! (I like killing the in-game trolls, especially the large ones)
Are you a concerned fan? Then you are simply an imbecile, and the game would be better off without you. As it states on numerous occassions, gameplay may change.
Turbine are attempting the most ambitious MMO project I know off, and so far, have done a really good job. I guess that in your hands, there would be NO expansion. That we would be restricted to the part of the world at the beginning. Woah! A game full of level 50 players - great fun...not!
Instead of 'jumping the shark', why don't you try to swim with it instead? A Great White preferably!
Normally before I post on a thread, I would read what has been written before. However, as I am meant to be writing My Best Man's Speech (for a wedding tomorrow - and dreading it!) I shall just get to the point. I understand the the reference 'jumping the shark' pertains to a later episode of Happy Days when The Fonze did a ludicrous stunt by waterskiing over a ramp, and 'jumping the shark'! The term was then adopted by production companies to express when their programme had went past it's peak audience, and therefore loosing ratings, and due to be dumped by the execs. Applying it to a successful MMO, that is just about to receive its first ground-breaking expansion, is a wonderful example of how stupid you are. Are you a troll? I hope so, then I can kick yer butt in the game! (I like killing the in-game trolls, especially the large ones) Are you a concerned fan? Then you are simply an imbecile, and the game would be better off without you. As it states on numerous occassions, gameplay may change. Turbine are attempting the most ambitious MMO project I know off, and so far, have done a really good job. I guess that in your hands, there would be NO expansion. That we would be restricted to the part of the world at the beginning. Woah! A game full of level 50 players - great fun...not! Instead of 'jumping the shark', why don't you try to swim with it instead? A Great White preferably!
Well the post started out well written and then you just became abusive for no reason at all.
It's a viable question. Just because you don't think it is doesn't make it the wrong question.
The question pertains more to the idea that LOTRO started out with a certain philosophy and due to certain new additions, might be veering away from that philosophy so much so that it makes one wonder if they have gone too far down the slippery slope.
Now, whether or not they have is up for debate. But given the nature of the additions it is a reasonable question.
And by the way, I saw that particular episode of Happy Days the evenign it was aired. ; )
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Normally before I post on a thread, I would read what has been written before. However, as I am meant to be writing My Best Man's Speech (for a wedding tomorrow - and dreading it!) I shall just get to the point. I understand the the reference 'jumping the shark' pertains to a later episode of Happy Days when The Fonze did a ludicrous stunt by waterskiing over a ramp, and 'jumping the shark'! The term was then adopted by production companies to express when their programme had went past it's peak audience, and therefore loosing ratings, and due to be dumped by the execs. Applying it to a successful MMO, that is just about to receive its first ground-breaking expansion, is a wonderful example of how stupid you are. Are you a troll? I hope so, then I can kick yer butt in the game! (I like killing the in-game trolls, especially the large ones) Are you a concerned fan? Then you are simply an imbecile, and the game would be better off without you. As it states on numerous occassions, gameplay may change. Turbine are attempting the most ambitious MMO project I know off, and so far, have done a really good job. I guess that in your hands, there would be NO expansion. That we would be restricted to the part of the world at the beginning. Woah! A game full of level 50 players - great fun...not! Instead of 'jumping the shark', why don't you try to swim with it instead? A Great White preferably!
Ouch, that was a little harsh don't you think? I stated in my post that these are just my opinions and was interested in getting your opinions whether you thought this was the case or not. I see where you stand!
Bottom line... We don't have access to the exit surveys. So the vocal few that play the game currently could be far outnumbered by those who tried the game and quit because they wanted a more traditional mage.
It does bend the lore a good bit but I understand the reasoning. Turbine needs to treat LotRO as a game first and as the "lore holy ground" second if you ask me, although a very close second. Apparently this has all been approved by the powers that be and it's going into the game. Hopefully it does what they want and it pulls in more subscribers. The legendary system and the fact that we get to explore Moria is all I need to play.
I really don't think it's unreasonable to object to the Runemaster.
The only tthing unique about LOTRO as a MMORPG is the setting - Middle Earth. Otherwise it's a pretty run of the mill MMORPG in the vein of Everquest or WoW. Take away the setting (which you do by adding the Runekeeper), then it loses what makes it different.
If people want flashier magic and such, why don't those people just play WoW or EQ? Same gameplay pretty much, maybe worse graphics but that's about it.
Seems like many are jumping the gun here and are going on false information and rumors eh?
Turbine has done an excellent job of staying to the lore as possible. You can only do so much within a game environment. Nowhere in the game can you actually say they BROKE the lore in any aspect. They've bent it in areas it needed to be bent in order to make a fun enjoyable game.
They haven't broke it in the past and aren't going to break it now.
Everyone should just settle down and wait for the expansion before making such rash judgements.
Comments
I have stopped playing. I don't complain or post in official forums. I listen, read, research, and make decisions. There is a quote is someone's profile to the this effect: I do not need to know how to design a game, (or in this case what's 'best' for the game) all I need to know how to do is hit the cancel button.
I voted against the direction of the game by cancelling my subcription. Not because I think that I know better, or that my arrogance knows no bounds, but because it simply becomes un-fun. It is no longer a game that I am interested in for my personal entertainment purposes.
And was it because of the introduction of the Rune-Keeper? Yes, but not primarily in the aspect one would immiedetly assume. It breaks trust.
What next?
T
There hasn't been a really GOOD RPG in years... most developers are working on MMOs!
I'm currently considering cancelling my WAR CE and saving my money to get back into LOTRO with MoM and a lifetime sub.
In my personal opinion, anyone who mentions the words "Lore" or "class balance" in a forum board should be slapped with a wet fish.
If the game is fun, play it. If it doesn't seem to do anything for you, move on.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Then you misunderstand. I don't have a problem with earth shattering "magics".
I have a problem with how they manifest themselves and I will once again state "there are no nukers in middle earth.
I have no problem with language or runes being used I have no problem with song being used. I have no problem with the rivers being controlled (well by characters who have the power to such as Elrond) I have no problem with Blinding the enemies with purest light or even setting something on fire.
So once again. There are no nukers in middle earth. Never happened. Gandalf who is arguably one of the most power beings in middle earth never EVER once let lightning flow from his fingertips or fireballs fly from the sky. You would think if he would do this at least once during the entire saga no?
Why is this understanding so hard? Players who don't like this direction of the game have no problem with great power it's how it is manifested and to a certain extent "who" has that power.
And yes I agree, minstrels should not be magically hitting for a crap load of damage nor should lore masters. The lighting effects are just that, effects. An artists interpretation of what the player sees. It's stretching it more than I like but I just put up with it.
But lightning from the hands to nuke your enemies is too far. Quite frankly the others are too far as well.
So "no" I don't like it and if it comes to the point where it bothers me "too much" I will just play a high fantasy game that does it and does it better.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Regarding claim that noone calls Lightning in the Books
In the books you get to read a comment about the battle at Weathertop where Gandalf gets attacked by the Nazgul that lightning struck and there was great fires to be seen. It's fairly obvious that Gandalf used some pretty standard destructive magic there. Of course, he's Istari. Doesn't mean much.
Also in the Hobbit, he used fire to scare off the wolves.
Regarding Minstrels being Lore-breaking
Can't understand this one myself to be honest. Music is shown through all Tolkiens work to be having power over its surroundings and many seem to build their power upon this. Add to this the brilliant idea to use 'Morale'. All a Minstrel does is effect the morale of an enemy or someone of their own. They don't magically mend wounds, they lift their spirits again so they can continue fighting. They don't scream so loud it hurts the enemy, they use their voices to instill fear and doubt. Heck, the last part is even true about real life so why not in Middle-Earth?
Regarding Rune-keepers being Lore-breaking
This one is more in the borderline in my opinion but as the developers mention in their last journal, I don't think it is neccessarily that bad. Runes in themselves are fairly powerful in Tolkiens work, Dwarves are suppossed to use runes for much of their work and we all know the effect of the Gates of Moria and the likes. Their abilities seem to enter the type of magic that only Istari should have access too.
To limit the races to Dwarves and Elves are wise since Tolkien has described them both as having certain powers. Just read about Finrod, Glorfindel at the River or many many smaller things where the elves seem to bend the world around them to acomodate some need. Magic in its classic form is perhaps not included in Middle-Earth, but in its basic form it is very much a part of it.
With all this said, I would still preferred to have seen the classes being more towards the normal type rather than the magic-user type. Minstrel would still work and Lore-master could be taken down to earth and more focused on what its name suggests, with alchemy and such. Rune-keeper could be made to work I guess, but it would be hard.
In the end, I would say that it is the same with this as with everything else done in Middle-Earth. You have to consider letting go off some of the lore in order to get the product working. The movies could not have been made into an exact copy without failing, and I think they did a pretty good job. This game is anyway catching the feeling of LoTR and that's what I think is the most important thing. They have really made you feel like you are part of the world and despite having to break some lore they do seem to me like fans as well as developers. Just think about the Third Age made to Xbox (where you end up killing Sauron) or the old cartooned movies (where Boromir was a classic nord barbarian). It could have been a lot worse.
I agree with most of this post and "THANK YOU" for noting that Gandalf was Istari.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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That's great. And reminds me I have to reread the books.
Gandalf was Istari.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Saying that Rune Keeper is the same as a Hunter and a Ministrel is like saying that Hunters should get a refund in WOW because Mages do damage and Priests shuold get a refund because Druids can also heal.
As far as lore goes, this isn't any worse than any other lore break they've done. I don't think you should base your decision on people screaming in the forums because they don't like the RK.
I actually quit WoW because they butchered the class roles in the game, in my opinion WoW jumped the shark with the release of their first expansion. I don't play LOTRO but I can imagine this will be even worse. This class requires no cost to switch build, it is done on a cool down.
Also I don't know how you can make a comparison of what I wrote and WoW Hunters and Mages. Do mages fill two rolls? As far as I know, they both are dps classes.
Yes they are both DPS classes but it seemed like your point was that having another DPS class made it so there is no reason to play the original DPS class. Hunters have a different role than the Rune Keeper, just like Hunters have a different role than Mages in WOW. The fact that the RK can also heal (with HOTs) doesn't make the Hunter obsolete.
TO clarify where I stand on a few points:
1. While Gandalf was certainly and honest to christ nuker, what he or any of the five Wizards could do is pretty much irrelevant. Players should not ever have access to that kind of power.
2. I think the Minsteral and the Loremaster stretch the lore pretty hard, but in my mind they don't break it.
3. I think that the Runekeeper is also going to be a stretch. However, I just don't see it (on paper) as any more of stretch than the Minst or the LM. Another class that plays as if they are using magic, but has some some justification based on the books. We have two already, I don't think a third will hurt as long as Turbine handles it well.
Of course it does depend on how well Turbine handles the class. I'm assuming Turbine will have the common sense to not have the class play like a WoW Mage or a EQ Wizard. In early interviews that's exactly what it sounded like were were getting, and I was up at arms as well. However to me the Runekeeper described in that article sounds a lot more tame than that.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
No end game? Oh ye of little knowledge.
And there is a lot to do other than solo, that is an ignorant statement which makes me believe you don't know the game. Alas I wish if peopel were going to have an opinion on something they would at least have knowledge of what they're talking of first.
ok to all you ppl who think LOTRO is "jumping the shark" I am a LOTR fan. But im actualy happy about The druid class...since well NO ONE REALY WANTS TO PLAY MINSTREAL...sure they are fun but its a pain. Pluse they will never be replced 100% since they have buffs that we need it will work out just shut up and watch. If you dont like it then go play warhammer lol. and rune keeper is a magic DPS class that can use some support. Its to give ppl a choice.
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You'll have to explain where that came from.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
so you don't play lotro; but based upon your hours and hours of not playing lotro, you're making posts about how an expansion will ruin the game?
really?
wow.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I have read the LotR books and seen the movies and i honostly don't care if the game takes another track now and then. In fact, i like suprises and it's only fun to not knowing what's going to happend next. If it would stick to the books/movies lore to 100%, then it woulden't be as exciting because you already know what's going to happen.
As long as the story is good, i don't care what they do with it. (Except adding some space-aliens...)
That is a generalization that would probably piss-off a fair number of people. I'm not pissed off - I'm fairly easying going - but I will say I play LOTRO and that description doesn't fit me. There are a whole host of things I would have rather seen in LOTRO (or Middle-Earth Online) but we have what LOTRO is... and what it is, in my opinion, is a solid game. So, I play it and enjoy it. But it's not "perfect".
I think there's a whole host of players not too happy with the Rune Keeper decision, so not everybody that plays will be eating it up. Nor is the PvE content exclusively solo... just a good percentage of it.
My feelings about the Rune Keeper have fluctuated. I was particularly cynical after hearing that comment by Jeffery Steefle, who basically admitted the decision put more value on including a particular class/playstyle for the sake of being a game than it did the IP lore. That was an unfortunate statement because it turned me off to the idea of the class.
However, after reading the dev diary discussing the class, I'm much more receptive to the idea, and I really think the attunement mechanic could be fun.
Check out my LOTRO Blog: www.middleearthadventurer.blogspot.com
Feel free to call me a hater, because I pretty much dislike LoTRO now... however, I posted a quote from the exec. producer... the developer diary did nothing to make the lore fans think that this class is not lore-breaking... you can put lipstick on a mage and call it a rune-keeper, but it's still a mage... but hey, if you are cool with generic fantasy lightning zaps, nice...
There is literally thousands of posts on the official forums about this, there are hundreds about broken promises from Turbine, when they stated they would never add magic and only stray from the lore when it was absolutely necessary from a gameplay perspective (you need a healer in this game, so MInstrel it is)... LM skill descriptions aren't bad, I think most lore-freak get mad at the animations... but what part of adding a mage class is absolutely necessary... it's absolutely not, and it's just a feeble attempt at Turbine to bolster some more subs from people who play the thousands of other generic MMOs. Where in the books did a dwarf or elf zap a monster with lightning from it's fingers? Gandalf didn't even do it. IMO, this game very much jumped the shark, just because you love it and have tons of fun doesn't mean it didn't. I'ts a slippery slope, and in the end Turbine will do more injustice to the Tolkien experience than anyone else...
You have to temper all that - in any kind of entertainment - books, movies, games, music, etc. - with the fact that many people have a very unjustified and unreasonable sense of entitlement. Somehow because they're playing the game (or reading the book, or listening to the CD, etc), they feel that it should cater specifically to them - what they expect, what they want, etc.
When it doesn't deliver on their expectations of what it "should be" or what it "should do" or how it "should have ended", etc. they feel betrayed, say the given product failed, the creators sold out, etc. etc.
Or they have been banned from the forums for asking reasonable performance related questions. Case in point FAILCOM...
Some will say "they don't listen to the players", which is really just saying "I said I wanted this, and they didn't do it". People need to temper that with this, self-evident bit of knowledge:
Sometimes this is true - I give you FAILCOM.
Players will typically ask for changes that benefit the class they happen to be playing, regardless of how it affects others, what impact it has on content, etc. Turbine has to make changes that will benefit many... not only the most vocal select few.
Right now I think Turbine is struggling with the fact that people bought lifetime subs and the revenue stream is going to depend entirely on the expansion packs. Since most companies get at most 20% of each box sold, not sure how they will do this - but hey - more power to em.
The incredible amount of ignorance and arrogance displayed by many who believe they somehow know better how to develop a game than people who have spent years doing so speaks well enough for itself.
How dare people demand more or better from the ALL KNOWING developers.. FEED THESE FREE THINKERS TO THE ORCS!
That these people can then post on forums and share their ignorance/arrogance with the rest of us just adds insult to injury.
Well Im responding to your post give me time. And dude dont put your self down. Youre not THAT arrogant in this post, just terribly.
When Turbine, or any game developer, makes decisions, they're not just made willy-nilly, nor in a vacuum. In LoTRO's case, they have to pass everything they do by Tolkien Ent. So, agree or disagree all you want, if Tolkien approves it and finds it doesn't "bend the lore" beyond acceptable limits, then who is anyone else to say otherwise?
In short... People need to get over themselves, realize their opinions aren't sacred and their expectations aren't law.
You included.
Turbine will do what they feel is best for the game. If they're right, great. If they're wrong, then they change things as necessary.
Wow blind faith in an MMO company - here a few years ago this required a deity.
So far, all indications are - cries of the attention-starved few notwithstanding - they're doing a fine job of it.
OMG, I wish I was a Turbine employee!
My above edits are there cause I was just so offended by this holier than thou crap, I had to post or puke.
-Lum
Normally before I post on a thread, I would read what has been written before.
However, as I am meant to be writing My Best Man's Speech (for a wedding tomorrow - and dreading it!) I shall just get to the point.
I understand the the reference 'jumping the shark' pertains to a later episode of Happy Days when The Fonze did a ludicrous stunt by waterskiing over a ramp, and 'jumping the shark'!
The term was then adopted by production companies to express when their programme had went past it's peak audience, and therefore loosing ratings, and due to be dumped by the execs.
Applying it to a successful MMO, that is just about to receive its first ground-breaking expansion, is a wonderful example of how stupid you are.
Are you a troll? I hope so, then I can kick yer butt in the game! (I like killing the in-game trolls, especially the large ones)
Are you a concerned fan? Then you are simply an imbecile, and the game would be better off without you. As it states on numerous occassions, gameplay may change.
Turbine are attempting the most ambitious MMO project I know off, and so far, have done a really good job. I guess that in your hands, there would be NO expansion. That we would be restricted to the part of the world at the beginning. Woah! A game full of level 50 players - great fun...not!
Instead of 'jumping the shark', why don't you try to swim with it instead? A Great White preferably!
Well the post started out well written and then you just became abusive for no reason at all.
It's a viable question. Just because you don't think it is doesn't make it the wrong question.
The question pertains more to the idea that LOTRO started out with a certain philosophy and due to certain new additions, might be veering away from that philosophy so much so that it makes one wonder if they have gone too far down the slippery slope.
Now, whether or not they have is up for debate. But given the nature of the additions it is a reasonable question.
And by the way, I saw that particular episode of Happy Days the evenign it was aired. ; )
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Ouch, that was a little harsh don't you think? I stated in my post that these are just my opinions and was interested in getting your opinions whether you thought this was the case or not. I see where you stand!
Bottom line... We don't have access to the exit surveys. So the vocal few that play the game currently could be far outnumbered by those who tried the game and quit because they wanted a more traditional mage.
It does bend the lore a good bit but I understand the reasoning. Turbine needs to treat LotRO as a game first and as the "lore holy ground" second if you ask me, although a very close second. Apparently this has all been approved by the powers that be and it's going into the game. Hopefully it does what they want and it pulls in more subscribers. The legendary system and the fact that we get to explore Moria is all I need to play.
I can't believe players would stop playing a game due to the addition of one class.
Lotro is one of the best Pve mmos out right now with or without the new class additions.
If you little babies are so into lotr lore why didnt you cancel when you found out the game had a class with healing?
mmo players are nuts these days.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
I really don't think it's unreasonable to object to the Runemaster.
The only tthing unique about LOTRO as a MMORPG is the setting - Middle Earth. Otherwise it's a pretty run of the mill MMORPG in the vein of Everquest or WoW. Take away the setting (which you do by adding the Runekeeper), then it loses what makes it different.
If people want flashier magic and such, why don't those people just play WoW or EQ? Same gameplay pretty much, maybe worse graphics but that's about it.
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
Moria isn't even out...
Seems like many are jumping the gun here and are going on false information and rumors eh?
Turbine has done an excellent job of staying to the lore as possible. You can only do so much within a game environment. Nowhere in the game can you actually say they BROKE the lore in any aspect. They've bent it in areas it needed to be bent in order to make a fun enjoyable game.
They haven't broke it in the past and aren't going to break it now.
Everyone should just settle down and wait for the expansion before making such rash judgements.