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The 2 big issues w/ Vanguard
gorecki
Member Posts: 45
Let me just say that recently I came back for a few months, and enjoyed myself a lot. But I stopped playing, not b/c I was unsatisfied with the game, but because I could see to major problems for the game's future which significantly impacted how much longer I could see myself playing it.
Also, I do know how much VG has improved. I played at release, and saw what a steaming pile it was then...now, I see how much it has improved...in fact, I don't think this phrase could ever be uttered anywhere else, but: SOE was the best thing to ever happen to VG. They have done great things to clean up and improve it. I have never seen anything remotely like that in the MMO industry before.
#1. The game is way too easy.
This comes down to two things: both the difficulty of the encounters, and the speed of the overall leveling progression. I played 5 classes up to 30: Psionicist, Shaman, Ranger, Necromancer, Paladin. I know that at least some of those (Shaman & Necromancer) are considered to be powerful solo classes...but let me say that the others weren't too far off. In fact, i think one would have an easier time counting what classes AREN'T ez-mode PVE. I was able to yawn through most quests / mobs my level or higher, within reason. I like the classes, I like the combat, I like the quests...but it was just too easy. I never felt a significant sense of danger when doing anything that was even remotely possible to do at my level. Additionally, as long as groups I was in were remotely competent, I never encountered serious problems there either.
Second, the progression is way too fast. My first character (Psionicist) made 35 in a week. Granted, I was off from work and had some time. But that's 15 short of cap...given that the cap is only 50, and there is little real "endgame" (more on that later), that worries me greatly. That's faster than WoW, or AoC (in my opinion), and that's not good, for me at least. I understand the additional spheres of crafting & diplomacy are there, but to me, these are sidelines, as I am not a hardcore crafter, and diplomacy is basically a built-in trading card game. Interesting to play with, but not the meat of the game.
#2. 1.5 years later...much has been fixed, little has been added.
Again, this is probably the only time anyone can say this about SOE, but the have done fantastic things for this game. They really polished up what was a wreck at release and have shown everybody what a cool game it was underneath. Really, i can't say enough positive things about them here.
But, we are 1.5 years after release. At this point, most game have had or are readying at least their first major expansion, following a number of smaller content updates. Multiple tiers of raids have been added. PVP is implemented and (hopefully) balanced. New zones, new items, new classes have been added. The level cap has been increased.
VG, however, has needed all this time to be fixed. One raid zone has been added...a big one for sure, but that is largely the extent of the endgame. Most of the developers time has been dedicated (rightfully so) to fixing and polishing the game. I am worried that VG is now too far behind in the normal development of a post-release game to catch up. Even if they decided today that everything was fixed, we would still be nearly two years behind most other major titles that survive that long from launch. PVP...has largely been ignored, and who knows if it will ever really be addressed.
This, more than anything else, makes me question whether VG has a future. It was hard for me to continue knowing i might be getting into something that is already "dead" and just doesn't know it yet.
So...please bear in mind I'm not bashing VG, SOE, or anyone playing. I think its a great game, but i don't know how long it will last, even if its fixed up nicely. It has some incredible stuff, and had its launch state been different it could have been a major contender.
Opinions? Do you think it has a future? What keeps you playing?
Comments
(1) It was important to "fix" and "improve" before they "enhanced" and "expanded."
(a) Fixed
(i) Bugs
(ii) Broken Quests
(b) Improved
(i) Crafting
(ii) Travel
(iii) Performance
(c) Enhanced
(i) Classes
(d) Expanded
(i) Raid Content
(ii) Trial Island
(2) Features are Lacking and Missing
(a) Lacking
(i) Character Customization
(ii) Fun End-Game Content for Solo, Group, and Small-Raids
(iii) LFG features that are efficient and effective
(iv) Intelligent, sensible means of travel that does not hurt but enhances immersion
(b) Missing
(i) PvP
(ii) Neat things by way of fishing, features to make the world feel more "real" or "alive"
(iii) Epic Questing
(iv) Something to separate itself from other games to market itself as "different" or "innovative" such as mercenaries, new or improved player-run cities, etc.
(3) Other
(a) Marketing
(i) I think people want something different than linear gameplay and tiered-raid armor sets
(ii) Performance is still a problem, and the PC requirements are still too high
(iii) Does anyone really care about a trial island?
(b) World Not Used Well
(i) The world is huge, yet somewhat feels cookie-cutter (that means things sort-of seem the same everywhere such as buildings looking the same but in different environments and locations)
(ii) Feels incomplete, somewhat empty; large expanse is useful for immersion but you need to develop other areas
(iii) Players should be given tools to develop cities, create named mobs, etc. An opportunity to add life to a world that is not fully utilized.
I agree that the game feels too easy. I find that I play with XP turned off a lot cause I like to keep areas I'm questing in challenging and hate outleveling them. Will be interesting to see how the game feels as they finish rebalancing combat in the coming update. With this update there were a number of adjustments but I'm not seeing a large change.
Solo content isn't to hard but group content can be challenging especially in some of the dungeons.
I think that for the past year and a half they have been working on getting the game upto production/release quality and building tools etc. It will be interesting to see what happens now as the game is in a pretty good state where it is fully release quality. I'm suspecting we will see a shift of focus more from bug fixing and polishing to content. Certainly they have said they have plenty of things in the works.
Pantheon revamp, dungeon & raid
Nexus dungeon?
The volcano raid area in qalia forget the name.
And Silias talked about some giant island and a bunch of content associated with that. He kinda said they have been staying focused on fixing things but are looking forward to working on content but fixes have been the priority.
So I think they next 6 months will be interesting. With Trial island we will see an increase in subs or not. If we don't then this game will probably stagnate and that will be the end. If the subs go up then they will add content and we could see a slow ramp up like Eve did. But time will tell.
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Ethion
just one reply here to this thread: level 35 in a week?!? Give me a break, Im sure you did find the game too easy if thats true. Ive been playing for 4 months and am only level 31. Evidently you hit every easy quest available and kept the grind pedal on the whole way. No way could you have done the unicorn questline, wolfhound questline, Hunters league questline, bounty hunter questline, wardship armor questline, CIS, Trengal keep, countless other dungeons, or crafting, harvesting, diplomacy, housing etc etc etc. This one statement of yours completely discredits the rest of the entire post. You sir missed out on the core of what Vanguard is. Associating that to SOE's fault or lack of commitment, content, yadda yadda yadda is simply a huge false claim on your part.
I understand your not flaming vanguard-and Im not trying to flame your post either, but the game play style taken and the post interpretation and association to SOE gives others who may have an interest in the game a huge false impression of what the game really is. Vanguard isnt going anywhere I assure you-correction to that-the only place vanguard is going is up in sub base from here on out. Sub base=interest=greater sub base=more attention $ wise from SOE. Theyve have already taken and made huge leaps forward thus far, in no way do they plan on letting up.
I don't think 35 in a week is impossible. It is sad but not impossible. I mean you can get levels really fast if you are in a good solid group doing dungeons. I think 35 in 3-4 days played time isn't unlikely. It does slow down quite a bit in the 30s so you wont get to 50 in 5 days played. But a power gamer could probably get to 50 in 2-3 weeks....
However it is sad cause you would blow by so much great stuff doing that. I'm doing HL, TK and CIS on my run through this time so I'm spending a fair amount of time with my xp turned off. But there are many other neat areas to explore. Just go get a dungeon list from the web and there are many places more off the beaten path that would be great adventure ares. Over the past I've done a lot of these areas and some are quite cool. Like the gnome dungeon where you have low gravity and have to worry about a sniper that sneaks around and one shots people in your group till you have a rogue find him and one shot him :P Or a dungeon where if you do something wrong or something the boss tosses up out the window high into the air only to land in the water, or on dungeon where you get a power suit and rocket launchers :P
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Ethion
I don't think 35 in a week is impossible. It is sad but not impossible. I mean you can get levels really fast if you are in a good solid group doing dungeons. I think 35 in 3-4 days played time isn't unlikely. It does slow down quite a bit in the 30s so you wont get to 50 in 5 days played. But a power gamer could probably get to 50 in 2-3 weeks....
However it is sad cause you would blow by so much great stuff doing that. I'm doing HL, TK and CIS on my run through this time so I'm spending a fair amount of time with my xp turned off. But there are many other neat areas to explore. Just go get a dungeon list from the web and there are many places more off the beaten path that would be great adventure ares. Over the past I've done a lot of these areas and some are quite cool. Like the gnome dungeon where you have low gravity and have to worry about a sniper that sneaks around and one shots people in your group till you have a rogue find him and one shot him :P Or a dungeon where if you do something wrong or something the boss tosses up out the window high into the air only to land in the water, or on dungeon where you get a power suit and rocket launchers :P
I've heard people say they got to level 50 in a week but I also find that hard to believe.Using XP potions and as mentioned in certain dungeons you could probably do it 3 weeks.Ive been playing for 4 months and I'm level 40 ...however I've been exploring and enjoying the rich wealth of dungeons and regions ..there are hundreds .CIS ,Misthaven Valley ,Xenn Ruins ,River Valley ,The Arena ,Trengal Keep etc etc the list go's on.I feel sorry for people who grind as quick as possible and miss out on vast and immersive world of Telon
"after the time of dice came the day of mice "
for the difficulty it depends what you do... lv35 is 1 week can be done but you have really to rush also (imo sadly) some quests or area where toned down in difficulty from the start (cis line for example) and both xps and items where boosted successively
also all the classes you played are quite strong soloers up to that level, pally is quite a beast too solo, psio is a bit more tricky and you have to pay attention, but when you charm a 3 or 4 dot mob... well you got an huge tank eheh
instead i totally agree with you about too easy xps, it was boosted, then we got rest xps (as in eq) then we got xps boosts in form of potions... even at start was hard to not outlevel the content now you have to diable xp or to start an area a bit under min level
also the challenging stuff come at the endgame with the most rewarding quest line (griff quest) and raid
about the content i totally disagree, is nowhere true that the devs just polished it, when i hit 50 there whas nothing, just the helm quest of afrit... now we got swamp, tot, nn, xen, ot and so on... a lot of rework and new content was added even on the mid and low level areas.(URT, hunter league and so on...) actually i have yet to visit all the dung and lines of mid/low game... there are at least 5 "leveling lines" with all different dungeons and quests
apw (the raid area) is pretty huge, and is not the usual dung you can do in a night, is really really big and all the bosses (around 20 i think) have different strats.
VG never got an expansion but that doesnt mean that content was not added, if anything better this way as we get content for free instead to pay 20-30 bucks for it :P
said that is true that raid content is not that much (and i hope devs will not stay with the contested raid mob idea :P) but this not because the game didnt get an expansion or content... is because at realease it was just not existant and they had to implement all the high end one.
I really don't feel like i rushed.
I had some time off from work over the July 4th holiday, and had little else to do. I quested everywhere I could, unless I had completely outleveled an area (which happened in several cases, there are probably enough zones to level 2, maybe 3 characters without touching the same content up till at least the mid 20s or early 30s. Many of those "cool dungeons" I simply outleveled, and there wasn't any point to doing them. That's part of the problem--obviously, VG was designed for a much more difficult, slower pace where all those locations would have been useful. SOE went way overboard WoW-ing the experience and you can whiz by without even trying.
I also did the URT & HL armor quests, the URT quests were entirely soloable and were very fast and easy. HL took a little bit longer b/c parts of them were simply not soloable, and the last (chestpiece) part in the cove is just horribly designed, since you have to be in a party, only 1 person gets a drop at a time, mobs don't always drop the item, and the place is crowded with other groups. CIS was incredibly easy and I was able to zip through it in a group in a few hours--nobody else seemed to be rushing, either, it just went that fast.
I also went through TK, and was able to solo a lot of it, even. Part of the problem was that I played a psionicist, which made so much content just trivial--being able to juggle multiple 3-4+ dot mobs with ease is just too much, IMO. In fact, when I hit 35 I was already thinking of re-rolling, just to have something that required some thought and effort! But there are alot of other solo powerhouses in the game as well...dreadknight, necro, disciple, ranger, shaman, it's not like psi is the only one. No, i didn't do the unicorn / shadowhound quests, as they just seemed like massive grinding time sinks and it would have been inefficient to attempt them at my level anyway.
As I said, i'm not a hardcore crafter, and while I did like EQ2 crafting and so figured I would like it in VG, the system just gave me a headache. I maxed my harvesting for my level for both chosen harvesting types. Diplomacy didn't really interest me that much...it seems like a little niche minigame, but not a major part of the experience. Many others seem to skip it as well until they are truly bored @ 50.
Even if VG got a ton of expansions / content updates starting right now, the ease of gameplay and progression would screw it up competely. I know that VG was supposed to be a much more hardcore game than it is now--imagine if they had stuck to not having fast travel! Now we have riftways, which while convenient, completely defeat the purpose of all the other ways of getting around such a massive world. Take boats, for example...what's the point, really, other than having a marginally entertaining little toy? You don't need it to get around, at all.
Anyway, i still think its a fun game, and if you turned off xp for long period of time, you might enjoy it more...i find that hard to swallow, why should a game have to be like that?
You missed out on the best weapon quest lines from Lord Thsang's Tomb...their weapons are basically good until level 30, and It can be done with a group of 16-20's. One of the best weapons you could have gotten back in your lower teens. You basically left out the Kojan continent on your travels. Then the wardship factioning is a pain, collecting the vurm tomes can take days if not weeks because you gotta pick up the tome and have to wait 2 hours for it to respawn then get lucky enough that its the right tome. Grinding max faction with celestine ward is also a pain, i can gaurantee that you cant get max faction (22k normal and 20k dynamic) in a day. Especially if you start at level 30+.
You also missed out on the ant hive quest lines in renton keep, the chest piece is quite nice (I think better than HL's chest piece quest), you mist out on Hilsbury mansion quest lines (note that the vampire lord's quest line is still broken), and misthaven, and veskels exchange, and Vault of Heroes...My point is, all you ever did was the so called "popular areas" stop for a moment and run through all the other areas people dont like doing because there arent much people doing em. I would love to see you go inside the ant hive with your psi solo hehe. Or the Conlor Mines. Or Cairnworth Hall, or Valdeholm, or Dargun's Tomb.
Trust me my friend, you totally rushed it. Travel the world and your eyes will open.
Hmm...well i got to lvl 30 quite quickly, so a few days w/ a slightly better weapon wouldn't have done much for me. As a caster, in fact, even less. I was just starting wardship when i lost interest.
I did hillsbury, misthaven, veskels, some of VOH.
Soloing in many "true" dungeons (read: enclosed spaces) is very problematic for anyone, because there is either no place to kite, or great a density for a "tanking" soloer.
As I said, many of the areas I mentioned will be bypassed by many players regardless of how LONG it takes them to level, in terms of realtime days, because the progression means that unless you shut off xp for long periods of time, you will outlevel many areas. Again, i can see that the original intention of the game was not to be like this.
The speed of leveling (as far as how much xp is gained in a length of real time) is not governed by power-gaming or rushing...it is a direct result of how fast the developers have decided a person should level. Spending 10 hours in one day, or 2 hours a day for five is the same thing! SOE, for all the good it has brought to VG, went waaaay overboard when tweaking the progression and difficulty of the game. It was supposed to be, in many ways, a throwback hardcore design (I would have LOVED that, if it had stuck!). VG was foundering badly, however, and SOE tweaked it to make it much easier. They did the same, to a lesser degree, with EQ2. EQ2 originally was going to be more difficult and group-oriented...when they got creamed at launch by WoW they overreacted and turned over many zones to make them simple and easy.
Beyond speed, many encounters are just far too easy. I heard this complaint often on the forums as well...i have had harder times leveling and questing in nearly every other MMO i've played, even WoW, the supposed king of ez-mode gameplay (I don't agree with that assessment, but it seems to stick).
In fact, the only recent game that feels as easy as VG was, is WAR. WAR is simplified to the point of stupidity. I hated it within minutes.
I like challenge, I like a long, difficult road. I'm back playing FFXI right now, because it is a long, difficult road that requires patience and dedication. Grouping beyond very low levels requires effort, concentration, and skill. You could play for two years hardcore, and still not have your fill. Contrary to popular belief, it is quite possible to solo--but you have to be DAMN GOOD, and willing to learn your limits the hard way. It is, in many ways, what I think MMOs should be...even though it is now, what, 6 years old?
as said i can agree with you about faxt xps and challenge and for sure the game was quite different in this reguard when it was launched
dont get tricked by the number of dungeons, you are not supposed to do all of them, as said there are some more or less defined lines that carry your char from the starting town mid 30 and more, imo is a pro of vanguard and make the game more "replayable" while creating different alts
also about difficulty... well the real challenge comes later with the new "elite" quests (as griff and in next future first part of pota) and raid... these encounters can be very challenging and generally require diff strats
the bosses from the griff line ("elite group") are actually miniraid bosses and you have to apply strats more similar to a raid fight there you really see the difference between good players/groups and "average" ones
even if i like challenge too, and i prefered the difficulty at release, i think the approach is not that bad, this way it is not necessary to be that picky with group while leveling... you dont need any "holy trinity" and sometimes is kinda fun to play in this "messed up groups". the approach sure is more casual but is not that bad if you have also the options of more hardcore encounters that come later in game.
personally i also like the raid content a lot, as said all the bosses are different and require strats and good execution... on the server i play i think there are probably around 20 raiding guild (some casual, some hardcore) only 5 of them completed the raid area, only 2 have killed the most difficult raid encounter (only 3 guilds killed it worldwide) and consider that apw is out by almost an year.
so yes, levelling is easy and this seem to be a trend in the later games (have a guildie that leveled to 55 in a week in aoc for example), but in the end game you get the option for more challenging game if you want
The time of the games where you played half a year to reach cap seems to be over. You can check this forum... There are a lot of posts claiming that leveling in VG is slow, the game is complicated and hard to understand.
I do agree that taking to long to level is bad. Though many players have been spoiled by wow, cap in a week if you play hard. I don't find Vanguard hard to play, compared to somone who may have learned on wow it might be, but if you cut your teeth in Eq1, Daoc, and Meridian 59 its got speed and depth. As for wow it came out when there was nothing to fill the void and its full of leet kiddies who want to gear up and pvp in a skilless system.
I've heard people say they got to level 50 in a week but I also find that hard to believe.Using XP potions and as mentioned in certain dungeons you could probably do it 3 weeks.Ive been playing for 4 months and I'm level 40 ...however I've been exploring and enjoying the rich wealth of dungeons and regions ..there are hundreds .CIS ,Misthaven Valley ,Xenn Ruins ,River Valley ,The Arena ,Trengal Keep etc etc the list go's on.I feel sorry for people who grind as quick as possible and miss out on vast and immersive world of Telon
I have seen two players level alts to 50 in less than a week real time. I have leveled alts in total played time between 6 ad 7 days played. I am sure better skilled and more focused players could do it in 1/2 the time played I did.
But the OP is right the game is to easy and provides little to no challenge. The leveling speed is super fast and the challenge level was greatly reducded but IMO that is ok as all games have their leveling speed reduced after release to placate the casual whiners. Its just a reality of all games those that level to cap at release will be playing a much harder game than what the casuals will play since they lack patience and skill. The big differnce here is SOE went overboard on the easy mode and they even admit that mobs are way out of balance compared to player power and have been stating for quite sometime they intend to fix this.
Yeah... I noticed this too when I started the game, it seems fairly easy to progress... but my issue with the game isn't so much that, or their lack of fixes and new content. My issue is with Sony itself and their antiquated style of MMO development. I must admit that they were one of the first companies to give online gaming its huge nudge into role playing within massive environments during which social interaction in between gamers is key (and I have respect for them on this level)... but despite the fact that many new games and groundbreaking developments have been forthcoming since Everquest I, it doesn't seem to have effected the overall methodology of their products. They still design games with the same prosaic movement and interaction style, and the same banal format of content progression. Its as though their developers have never played a MMO in their life (asside from those silly games they design) and that is even questionable. In other words, the dissinterest in the whole present day MMO scene seems to manifest itself through their work, and I rather enjoy playing games in which it seems the videogame developers actually appear to have enjoyed themselves in the process (like in WoW with its subtle stylistic humor, or with FFXI with its horribly engrossing storyline) rather than it seeming like a new excuse to weasel more money out of the trendy gaming public. Never thought a day would come when I felt compelled to shell out another couple score dollars for more SOE drudgery (after my drowsy experiences with SWG, and the Everquests), but I did, and I must remark that unfortunately it was nothing different than that other rubbish I played of theirs. I was honestly expecting a gem this time (unlike those prepense fanbois who drone on about their addiction versus everyone elses), and I did desperately want it to be one... but unfortunatley it was not. Their products (SOE) just have an unfinished feel about them, and a lack of subjective cohesiveness which I have grown to demand from a serious game experience. Now this having been said, I know some of you may probably say that I should have saved this business for the ratings blogs within the game summary pages, but I am not posting content there at the moment... I am posting it here, and I thought I would say all I have to say in one go rather than split the content up into its appropiate subcategories. Well, anyway... I am not a fan of SOE, and it will take a freak act of nature for me to ever shell any money out to their company again. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I do think the game looks pretty, and I do see what classic gamers see in Sony's stylistic reliability (if one can call it that) but its not for me, and I can not recommend it to anyone else. Save your money for cigarettes... money better spent.
fraudemonax