Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
so whats obama planning? tax cuts or tax increases for 'working americans' ?
bluberryhaze
Member Posts: 1,702
i don't know of a democrat who has ever decreased taxes. they say they do or will, but the tax appears somewhere else.
so as im tetering as an independent voter, and looking at the two candidates, i am wondering how obama plans to pay for everything like universal healthcare for millions of illegals without raising taxes.
i saw a cute little bar graph where obama raises taxes on the 'wealthiest' americans- and i heard some chic say that under obama, 95% of americans will receive a 'tax cut' .
i dont buy into this notion that obama will lower my taxes.
so, will he? and if he does lower my taxes will there be an increase to say the medicaid/care or FICA taxes on my paycheck?
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
Comments
Teetering independent voter my ass. I love how 99% of McCain supporters on this forum say their independents and have obvious republican values and views. Also those "cute" little bar graphs are the facts. Obama has said time and again he'll tax the rich and cut them for the poor. If you think hes lying then thats your problem. You can't base a point on the assumption that he is lying. It is ridiculous.
of course im being facetious. im not teetering. most will know this was a joke.
i love BUSH!
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
Most politicians are liars so I don't pay too close attention to what they say out on the stump, but the Obama lie that he will give 95% of Americans a tax cut is just over the top. First of all, he started campaigning by talking about how he would raise taxes. Granted he qualified it by saying it would only be on the top 10% of wage earners in this country, but he wasn't shy about it.
But his problem is that it's hard to sell a tax increase when juxtaposed against his tactic of striking fear into the hearts of Americans by saying this is the worst economy since the Great Depression. So now he has to back off his tax increase language and try to win votes by saying he will cut taxes for 95% percent of Americans.
The problem with this, and no one in the media is calling him on it, is that 40% of Americans don't pay income taxes. So, I'm no mathematician, but I think it's impossible to give a tax cut to 95% of Americans when only 60% of us pay taxes in the first place.
By the way, I thought I would use this post to point something out about the rampant growth of government. Everyone seems to be saying that the government has grown out of control in the eight years under Bush, and that is true, but why is Bush getting all the blame for it? The President is incapable of spending one dime of taxpayer money, because Congress holds the power of the purse. Yes, the President proposes spending, and I'm not going to give Bush a complete pass on government growth, in fact, it is my biggest disappointment in him. But no growth would have been possible if Congress had not gone along with it. I wish Bush had used his political clout after the '04 election when he had a Republican majority in Congress to slash the federal budget, but he passed on that, perhaps because the Republicans were afraid they would pay the price in the '06 elections. Well guess what...you got beat in '06 anyway and you failed to do anything about spending.
I firmly believe that government spending is not going to stop growing until they day when we just run out of it and the government has to admit that there isn't anymore.
Thats because... you may not believe this... McCain is a moderate. He won the Republican Nomination because this year they allowed independants to vote on party tickets without them having to affiliate with one. He won many of the key states because of independants. He won states like California and Florida because of the large majority of moderate republicans. He is one of the most moderate politicians with a track record to prove it.
Another reason is that the current republican values and views aren't the original republican values and views. I think a large portion of republicans from the past became independants because of the Neo-Cons with thier frivilous spending and middle-finger to working americans.
I don't belive a damn thing either side says to be honest with you; I suppose I will choose the side with the prettiest lies.
I enjoy all this Democrat and Republican talk of tax cuts. It reminds me of buying votes with the voters money. It reminds me of duckspeak.
Two weeks ago the Federal Government took over (a politically correct term for nationalized) Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In doing so the government doubles the amount of debt on the balance sheet. This doesn't count the off book debt associated with borrowing money out of Social Security to fund norrmal government operations. Nor does it count the amount of debt needed to cover the FDIC in case of bank failures (WaMu). Oh, and buy the way, the government just "loaned" AIG $80 billion in exchange for about an 80% equity share. Now AIG executives get to play with "other peoples money" (OPM). Watch the auto industry demand a similiar sweetheart deal.
Now, I guess they can cut taxes, and either borrow from "A" to pay "B", that is sound long term fiscal management. Or they can adopt another sound economic solution and just print more money. If they quadruple the amount of dollars in circulation, they can repay in cheaper dollars. Prices will go up (inflation), but if they hold the line on wages they can eventually bring American worker's wages in line with wages in China and India. Yup, the fundamentals are sound.
Fortunately, I think the powers that be have plans to adopt the second economic policy. Let inflation eat into the workers wages until wages hit the subsistence level.
Doesn't matter which party is in power, Streisand, Jolie, Bono, and Michael Moore want your sorry lower class ass out of their way just as much as Bush, Cheney, Buffet, and Gates. You ain't gonna be holding them up for their "T" off time at the Country Club any more. The only time you'll get to see them will be to ask, "Would you like another lemonade Mr Gates, Sir?"
......and I say to myself, what a wonderful world.
To my understanding it is this:
Obama will lower taxes for the poor and middle class, and increase for the rich *or if you prefer, upper middle class..?*
Mccain will lower taxes for the rich, and increase for the poor/middle class *or lower middle class*
what anyone considers *working americans* is beyond my guess, because everyone will say diffrent things most likely.
That is but one tax. A big one no doubt, but still only 1.
We all know well enough what both want for that one tax, wish they would move off it and on to what the 2 want to do with the other tens of thousands of other taxes.
Obama/McCain: I'm going to this, this and this.
Voters: We'll thats all good in well, what about that?
O/Mc: .... Did I tell you about this, this and this yet?
V: uhhh, yea you did, we want to know more.
O/Mc: Oh, well Im going to do this, this and this to make more.
V: that makes no sense at all, you're aren't saying much of anything. You spend an hour and a half to put out about 2 mins of real info the 88 mins of how scarey the other guy is.
O/Mc: It will make sense when I do this, this and this
McCain isn't increasing taxes on anyone.
Obama wants to lower taxes on lower income people and raise taxes on upper income people.
McCain wants to lower taxes on everyone.
The only difference is that in Obama's plan he wants to take more money from the rich and give it to the people who pay no taxes at all currently. McCain wants to give every tax payer a break. The problem with Obama's plan is that historically anytime the rich get taxed at a higher rate they make less money to lessen their tax burden. So Obama wants to increase Government programs and spending (by giving more tax money to people who don't pay taxes) but is counting on a group that historically can afford to make less money so they pay less taxes.
That is the major problem with Liberals "tax policy" they seem to think that people will continue to work as hard even if they are getting taxed at higher rates which isn't true.
If you are a upper class income person you generally work a lot of hours. Many of these people own their own business and are working 60-80+ hours per week. If they can turn around and work 40 hours per week and make the same amount of money because of that increased tax burden why would they still work 60-80+ hours?
So you end up with a Government Spending plan based on increased tax receipts but all of a sudden your tax receipts actually goes down from that upper class income particpants. So what does Obama do then? Does he cut his new spending plans for the "poor"? (and I put "poor" in quotes because if you live at the poverty line in America then you actually are better off then 85% of the world. Poverty line is $9K per year for a household). Did you know that of those "poor" 70%+ own a car, 90%+ own a TV (25 in or larger), 55% own more then 1 television, 99% were able to live in a house and could afford their rent/mortgage, 97% never had their utilities turned off, only 1 out of ever 400 Children skipped a single meal in a whole month. Sorry but our poor are actually extremely well off compared to actual poor people.
But back to my main point. So what does Obama do when his tax receipts go down from the "rich" and he can't afford his new government spending plans? Well he gets it from the backbone of America and he will increase the tax on Middle Class.
Socialist ideas (universal Healthcare, Taxes to even wealth distribution, etc) can't work when you have such a large population. Sure it works quite well in Iceland (I lived there for 3 years) but it is already failing in places like Canada, UK, France, etc. Socialism can work in small communities of a like people but it just doesn't work in such large countries.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
=O such detailed arguments.
u guys to hardcore 4 me =D
but yea..... OBAMA FTW!
RAWR! free money. clickey clikey!
There wont be any tax cuts if the economy crashes.
McCain isn't increasing taxes on anyone.
Obama wants to lower taxes on lower income people and raise taxes on upper income people.
McCain wants to lower taxes on everyone.
The only difference is that in Obama's plan he wants to take more money from the rich and give it to the people who pay no taxes at all currently. McCain wants to give every tax payer a break. The problem with Obama's plan is that historically anytime the rich get taxed at a higher rate they make less money to lessen their tax burden. So Obama wants to increase Government programs and spending (by giving more tax money to people who don't pay taxes) but is counting on a group that historically can afford to make less money so they pay less taxes.
That is the major problem with Liberals "tax policy" they seem to think that people will continue to work as hard even if they are getting taxed at higher rates which isn't true.
If you are a upper class income person you generally work a lot of hours. Many of these people own their own business and are working 60-80+ hours per week. If they can turn around and work 40 hours per week and make the same amount of money because of that increased tax burden why would they still work 60-80+ hours?
So you end up with a Government Spending plan based on increased tax receipts but all of a sudden your tax receipts actually goes down from that upper class income particpants. So what does Obama do then? Does he cut his new spending plans for the "poor"? (and I put "poor" in quotes because if you live at the poverty line in America then you actually are better off then 85% of the world. Poverty line is $9K per year for a household). Did you know that of those "poor" 70%+ own a car, 90%+ own a TV (25 in or larger), 55% own more then 1 television, 99% were able to live in a house and could afford their rent/mortgage, 97% never had their utilities turned off, only 1 out of ever 400 Children skipped a single meal in a whole month. Sorry but our poor are actually extremely well off compared to actual poor people.
But back to my main point. So what does Obama do when his tax receipts go down from the "rich" and he can't afford his new government spending plans? Well he gets it from the backbone of America and he will increase the tax on Middle Class.
Socialist ideas (universal Healthcare, Taxes to even wealth distribution, etc) can't work when you have such a large population. Sure it works quite well in Iceland (I lived there for 3 years) but it is already failing in places like Canada, UK, France, etc. Socialism can work in small communities of a like people but it just doesn't work in such large countries.
I vote for a flat tax.
Which of the two do you believe will decrease government spending to the point where they can also decrease taxation?
Which one of the two is more likely to increase government spending once in office?
Do you believe the President of the USA will spend the majority of his time with America's wealthy elite or with America's lower/middle class?
Is it realistic to think that he will place an unpopular tax on the people he will spend the majority of his time with?
Are the people running for President of the USA wealthy?
Is it human for a person to act against their own best interests?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Does a rich person need to worry about money as much as a poor person. Which one can better afford to lose some.
If you leave a fifty dollar bill lying on the table who is more likely to steal it, a tramp or a millionaire?
The more money people have the less reason they have to cheat. They get fat and lazy. Moral even.
I think whoever gets eleceted isn't going to have much room to manouvre on taxation and spending. Your government is bankrupt it's been trying to sell government bonds today.
It can't pay it's bills.
And if China decides it doesn't want to lend you any more money........ you are going the way of the Soviet Union. The system doesn't work, you ahve all the factories the raw materials the manpower, but your system is teh fail. If China lets you crash, you will need to come up with a new one.
So I wouldn't be getting to excited about tax cuts and increases in spending this election if I were you. Any one who offers them to you will need to borrow to pay for them. they will be perpetuating a broken system rather than fixing a system in crisis.
The millionaire will pick it up before the tramp does.
I used to work security in an upscale condo complex in an urban area that had quite a few homeless people around, so I dealt with both the very rich and the very poor.
From what I saw, I can tell you with 100% certainty the rich person will pick up the 50 before the tramp does. I'm not suggesting that the tramp is nobler but that they've been kicked enough times to fear 50 dollars lying on a table. Tramps are as timid and fearful of things as squirrels.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Kennedy cut taxes
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
what can i do to help my government get out of this financial problem?
ill pay more, i just dont want to give it to some non working, poor person.
ill pay more. to relieve our debt. Ill do what I can for my country.
what can I do to help my country?
"ask not what..."
thanks for the reminder of a true democrat, frodus.
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
a vote for obama is a vote that will get thrown away.
mccain and palin are where it is at. not only will they fix what is going on with money today but they will defend us and our freedoms from those who are trying to take it from us. people like russia and iran who need to be stopped now. mccain and palin will get more oil pumping and bring in more jobs.
what is obama going to do?
nothing he's just like slick willy back in the 90's he will be the worst leader we have ever had.
the fault of what is going on right now can be blamed on those nut case lefty's that got voted in back in 2006. they took what bush did and threw it into the trash and that is why we are in the state we are in now.
if you want to see the u.s. go into more of a hole then vote for obama and his commie buddys on the left. vote for him so you'll be forced to pray to mecca every day. vote for him if you want to see russia take over places like england. vote for him so you will pay more at the pump and more in taxes every year. or you can do the right thing and vote mccain/palin two people who will defend you and our freedoms.
Fixed that for you Precusor, hope you don't mind. In fact some States budgets have already seen shortfalls and budget cutbacks, and the economy hasn't even crashed yet.
McCain isn't increasing taxes on anyone.
Obama wants to lower taxes on lower income people and raise taxes on upper income people.
McCain wants to lower taxes on everyone.
The only difference is that in Obama's plan he wants to take more money from the rich and give it to the people who pay no taxes at all currently. McCain wants to give every tax payer a break. The problem with Obama's plan is that historically anytime the rich get taxed at a higher rate they make less money to lessen their tax burden. So Obama wants to increase Government programs and spending (by giving more tax money to people who don't pay taxes) but is counting on a group that historically can afford to make less money so they pay less taxes.
That is the major problem with Liberals "tax policy" they seem to think that people will continue to work as hard even if they are getting taxed at higher rates which isn't true.
If you are a upper class income person you generally work a lot of hours. Many of these people own their own business and are working 60-80+ hours per week. If they can turn around and work 40 hours per week and make the same amount of money because of that increased tax burden why would they still work 60-80+ hours?
So you end up with a Government Spending plan based on increased tax receipts but all of a sudden your tax receipts actually goes down from that upper class income particpants. So what does Obama do then? Does he cut his new spending plans for the "poor"? (and I put "poor" in quotes because if you live at the poverty line in America then you actually are better off then 85% of the world. Poverty line is $9K per year for a household). Did you know that of those "poor" 70%+ own a car, 90%+ own a TV (25 in or larger), 55% own more then 1 television, 99% were able to live in a house and could afford their rent/mortgage, 97% never had their utilities turned off, only 1 out of ever 400 Children skipped a single meal in a whole month. Sorry but our poor are actually extremely well off compared to actual poor people.
But back to my main point. So what does Obama do when his tax receipts go down from the "rich" and he can't afford his new government spending plans? Well he gets it from the backbone of America and he will increase the tax on Middle Class.
Socialist ideas (universal Healthcare, Taxes to even wealth distribution, etc) can't work when you have such a large population. Sure it works quite well in Iceland (I lived there for 3 years) but it is already failing in places like Canada, UK, France, etc. Socialism can work in small communities of a like people but it just doesn't work in such large countries.
^ It is like you are reading my mind Cabe, well said,
Oh, now tell us how Obama will destroy the country and there will be food riots! And how your side is so impossibly cool and doesn't need to change at all because they are perfect. Don't forget about how your beliefs are completey right and that anyone who doesn't agree is a traitor! And how our individual freedoms have been completely safe with all the wire tapping and prisoners held indefinately.
Come'on, you know you want to say it. You're almost there now...