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Do you think DF is hardcore?
theres been a few interesting threads recently on this subject and i notice more and more are jumping on the DF hardcore wagon too. But really i can't see a single reason why DF is considered hardcore! niche maybe but hardcore...not a single reason.
What do the real DF followers think? not the "i like FFA PVP so i'm hardcore" kids but the real DF fanboys if you like. ( i mean no insult by fanboy btw...im a huge EQ fanboy ) i dont want to go into the whole what is hardcore and what is carebear thing again, but rather would like to see why players think of DF as hardcore and then the replys against.
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answer depends on what you compare it to.
If you compare to wow/war/aoc and the likes, then you can argue its hardcore because there is no risk/reward in those games, and they tend to punish the agressor, which leads to very little pvp, since you are not rewarded for killing someone, so it gets boring really quick - its just a waste of time really.
Personally I dont think DF's concept is hardcore, it is just the only meaningful way to do it.
Full loot and collision detection with friendly fire is the way it should be - the way I would do it if I was making a mmorpg - it makes sense, because it prevents zerging to some degree, and it promotes player skill in pvp.
Full loot is the only way to implement risk/reward. Some artificial systems like honor points or blood money or whatever will always be bullshit to me. It is just extremely satisfying to loot someones stuff, even if its not worth much.
So no i dont think its hardcore, it is just alot more immersive than all these instanced themepark mmorpgs, and makes me want to play the game, because me and my friends can actually affect the world, and make history.
Khael[SUN]
SUN - peekayin since pong
Webdeveloper on:
http://www.guildofsun.com
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com
you have just restored my faith in the FD community. Thanks! i hope there are more like you and less of the " x*^&9& off carbears" which i can't help but label them at the bottom of the pile! thanks for a proper answer.
I think you hit it on the head there " meaningful" and yes i too love risk/reward. Myself i dont think DF is anything close to Hardcore, but like you i think it has something meaningful in the game. EQ's first raids were hardcore because it took so much time and devotion just to finish one. grinding for hours for one small reward could be considered hardcore because you are doing mindless tasks to reach a goal.
well OP, one thing is to fear facing a fight (although its a game really) and entirely other thing is because of this to demand feature x should be taken out of game and run petition for (for example).
Hope you notice the difference in what is carebearish and what not...
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-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I do friend i just wander sometimes if others do
I'm the type of player who will go looking for the fight not running away from it! and i do see the difference. Though i do admit i dont understand what your trying to add to the thread there
do you see DF as hardcore friend?
Well Hardcore is a relative term depending on your perspective. If you have old school MMO experience with games like UO, AC, SB, Lineage series and even to a certain extent EQ1 or DAoC then no, it wont seem hardcore because you will be used to having to actually figure things out for yourself and not have the whole game 'spoon fed' to you. If you're part of the WoW generation where you've had every last bit of game content 'spoon fed' to you to the point that you're led through the game on a leash then yes, it will seem very hardcore to you.
Whether DF seems hardcore or not will highly depend on your past MMO experience. I don't see it as hardcore only because I've been playing these games since the late '90s and I've played this type of game before. To someone who started with games like WoW, EQ2 and LotRO it will be very hardcore.
Bren
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Hardcore to me defines how much effort some folks put into a game, and there can be hardcore players in every game, PVE and PVP wise.
What I like about DF's FFA PVP/full loot mechanic is that it puts meaning back into the fight. No longer will players foolishly charge into battle if they know the cause is lost, rather they'll strategically retreat, regroup and approach the conflict from a different angle.
Games play so much differently when people actually try to avoid dying, much like in real life. And it puts a bit of fear into dying, which gives it an edge that most MMO's today can't provide with their no-penalty, no reward game mechanics.
Is DF hardcore? Only for its ability to instill a bit of fear in the player, which will make for more cautious combat mechanics.
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you know maybe your right there! i'm an old vet of the first wave of games that came along and find games since wow, eq2 etc just way too easy and repetitive. so you have a good point there. playing a game where you need to think again might even bring back those old feelings. god i hope so.
To actualy play an adventure and be involved in something again is what i miss most!
I guess i say the same as everyone else.
DF is considered hardcore for a few different reasons, and hardore is of course a subjective term.
- First of all, it is FFA pvp with full player loot. Not all player may like it, and it is considered Hardcore.
But is it really? I dont know. Items are not WoW-Epics.. more like replaceable UO gear.. not as much of a hassle to lose or get. FFA may be hardcore.. but you will be save in the cities(more or less) and the world is huge.. with other words a lot of room to avoid to be pked.. if you wish.
- Second one. It is really heavy based on Clans, Clan warfare, empire building and all those things.
All this are cool features, no question about it, but all of those features demand a more or less huge clan, and a lot of commitment for a clan and their members. You have to invest a lot of time, to build your city, build your war ships, to fight day after day for domination, and to secure your belongings. You need a lot of commitment from your members to harvest resources, craft armor, weapons, ships, and what ever and at the same a lot of commitment to defend those crafters, harvester and resources. With other words, it will demand some time, and it will not as easy for casuals to invest as much time, and be as involved into a clan.
Of course you can most probably play Darkfall casually, but at the same time you will also miss a lot of clan content and a lot of thrilling and exciting drama during those clan wars.
So.. yes, it will be a lot more hardcore than WAR, where you can reach anything with just one group and a casual playtime. But on the other hand.. even in WoW you have a lot of hardcore Raidcontent you will miss as a casual solo player.
But overall i would guess it is one of those more hardcore mmos out there. But i could be wrong.
hmm never really thought about it like that! it's almost as though communitys can make a game hardcore or not. And DF is promoting community with the idea's of clans etc.
It's good to see the real DF community coming forward too. so much more mature it seems.
I tried to contribute the thought that DF offers different rules then the mainstream of MMO actually believes in beyond the ideas of security, insurance, safe life (i mean this all as in game rules and values, we can have a talk about them in RL too
). Lets describe it as "wild west" setting. If that means hardcore then DF is hardcore.
But like other said 'hardcore' is subjective term. What is funny is that despite the fact that most people live carebear RL lives they don't wanna accept a virtual "hardcore" MMO world and cry even in games for safe zones, insurance, item loss etc.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I dont consider DF to be hardcore. Almost the opposit, i couldent play WoW with my "hardcore" friends due to my working hours. In DF i can relax and just play the hours i can get (many) and not have to think about gear or levels. No linear story you have to follow, or else you will get left behind.....i can log in and craft 25 swords for my clan, and then logout, or find some other friends online and go out and explore or patrol a border.
I struggle with the whole "hardcore" qualifier / moniker as well. I don't know how it provides a proper description of PVP.
I like FFA PvP and full loot - but I don't think I would call myself or darkfall hardcore PvP as a result.
I don't think those attributes make the PvP hardcore. They make it interesting and a challenge and worthwhile to engage in.
I think the only thing that can make it hardcore is the participants not the mechanics.
At the same time I feel using "hardcore" is either generational or epeen thing. Almost none of the best PvPers I know or respect have ever referred to themselves or the game they were in as hardcore PvP. They use other more detailed descriptors.
I tried to contribute the thought that DF offers different rules then the mainstream of MMO actually believes in beyond the ideas of security, insurance, safe life (i mean this all as in game rules and values, we can have a talk about them in RL too
). Lets describe it as "wild west" setting. If that means hardcore then DF is hardcore.
But like other said 'hardcore' is subjective term. What is funny is that despite the fact that most people live carebear RL lives they don't wanna accept a virtual "hardcore" MMO world and cry even in games for safe zones, insurance, item loss etc.
I see now, yes if you term hardcore that way then i think maybe DF can be called hardcore. myself i want the opposite of what i have in RL. i want excitment and fear, things to get my adrenaline pumping.
OK I thought about it some more.
The PvP participant makes it hardcore not the system.
To me if someone says they are hardcore PvP I expect certain behaviors on their part.
They will seek and engage PvP even if they are not guaranteed to prevail or when it is likely to be difficult or even unlikely to survive. (This does not mean entering into hopeless encounters that is just stupid.)
They accept the challenge of the situation and adapt. They understand there is a cost and incur and endure that cost without whining. ie they get to work rebuilding when disaster strikes.
They are good sports and take it as a game.
What does that mean for darkfall? To me it means the game and mechanics provide an environment that permits participants to be hardcore. But the game itself will never be hardcore only the participants can be.
Done and dusted! i think thats the answer i was looking for.
Darkfall provides the oppurtunity to be hardcore. low level gankers can be low level gankers in almost any game to me, and they are far from hardcore, but accepting the challenge and sticking it out is what i would class as hardcore, and like you say, pick yourself up, dust yourself of and go again when it all goe's pete tong!
In that regards, DF's seiges will be hardcore, as will running a city.
It is not really hardcore ... it is ... somekind of Reality
Well think about that you go to sleep and you - you really you - awake in a world like DF... You are a new races, you go out your little house ( if you have build one ) and see the world ... some raiders coming around and start to mobbing you and steal some of your clothes ... cry for help and police? NO ... you will fight or you will start to deal - pay for your safety and so on.
It is a "bad" world, but a real one if you're are quite directly view at the things happens around. What if you go to a very dark area at you'r city... well there are also a chance to get hitted by some shoots, fired from one gang to another, also if you're a gang member you will have a chance to get hitted by friendly fire.
It's life - and life isn't fair all the time.
Safezone - you will have safezones, but those created by players themself. A guild - powerfull enough to raise up a city could provide shelter or saftey for the people, for trading and crafting. So the guild could use this to raise their own empire, and so you will have somekind of war, because you will let money flow to you'r guild and the other want to participate from this. So they are the ways of diplomancy or war to cary this to a "good" way.
But the first months will be really hard to solve and hardcore, because a lot of players join and think only PvP will be the Way to win and forget that you also will be in need of some really good friends and organisations to handle the life at Darkfall.
At a glance: For "normal" MMO-Player, only knew WoW/AoC/DaoC/War, YES IT WILL BE HARDCORE. For Player love to enjoy the feeling of war, loves to "life you'r character" and also have fun about dealing a little bit, also for you'r own life, it will be wonderfull
German MMO-Guild / Bewahrer der Welten / http://darkfall.bewahrer-der-welten.de/
I agree, I think the game allows you to be hardcore if you want, the game itself is not hardcore. It's up to the players.
My question is why shouldn't it be not hardcore? Considering a good percentage of MMOs cater to the casual/ I hate PVP carebear types. We get what we finally want they can go play everything else....
I think Darkfall is the ultimate hardcore new-gen mmorpg. so a definite yes from me.
People interpret Hardcore as either meaning a harder game, which Darkfall is compared to any modern MMOs, or as more time consuming to become a top player (such as the OP).
So harcore in the sense of more time consuming I would have to say that DF is much less hardcore then most MMOs (especially level based ones). You could in theory beat a 10x max skilled player with your 3x 80% character if you were more skilled at using your character then him, this allows players who can only put in 1-2 hours a day (yes some people have jobs) to compete with the "Hardcore" players.
So I guess theres your answer, harder yes, time consuming no. Just the way I like it
The main thing is probably like some people mentioned already, that in DF you will spend less time grinding, more time playing the game.
This might actually make it less hardcore, if you interpret hardcore as you have to do endless mindless repetitive grinding. In this case you might see wow as one of the most hardcore games ever.
Khael[SUN]
SUN - peekayin since pong
Webdeveloper on:
http://www.guildofsun.com
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com
Personally I loathe ffapvp with loot. If I wanted to worry about some punk killing me and robbing me and my friends I could just go to downtown Detroit or some other cesspool city. You want ffa pvp step away from the computer and join the military and go to iraq. Don't worry its not the humidity that will get you its the humanity.
good for you, plenty of mmorpgs on the market where you get some invisible wall around you that makes you immune to other player attacks.
This way you can bash rats all day long without any worries pretending to be some invincible hero even if only in your own mind.
So go ahead, knock yourself out.
Khael[SUN]
SUN - peekayin since pong
Webdeveloper on:
http://www.guildofsun.com
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com
If you define "Hardcore" by "Hard" or "Time consuming", WoW wins by a mile. 12-hour raids and endless wipeouts FTW.
On a skill based level, complication level (I imagine the learning curve will be fairly steep), and PvP level, Darkfall is more hardcore.
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Darkfall wins. Vaportrolls lose.