No game company is obligated to provid a forum. There are other forums available that get monitored and in-game tools to provide feedback. Most forums contain excessive abusive feedback that gets repeated thousands of times. If you're unhappy with the game you can express your opinion to them directly, the fact that they're not giving you a tool to share it with the rest of the world is fine.
Perhaps when the MMO community matures a little and learns some manners in regards to providing constructive posts and not polls on who's leaving at the end of the month they'll provide official forums. Till then I can't blame em.
The fact that there are so many posts here saying it's a cop-out to not give you a place to abuse them proves this point. Otherwise why would it be considered a cop-out?
This response is such a joke. We aren't dissatisfied with not having an area to "abuse," we're dissatisfied with not having an "official" area to discuss this game we love with the official development team or PR heads.
There is a lot of garbage on the official WoW forums. But guess what? There's infinitely more positive and productive posts that outweigh the negative ones. Not only that, but there's tons of information about the game centralized into one forum. I don't want to have to shoot to two or three different fan sites for an MMO just to find discussion on my specific class/race selection. The companies who developed and produced the game should to provide the necessary hubs to discuss their creation. Not having that because they fear having "their feelings hurt by some forum trolls" is a complete cop-out. No way around it.
You need official forums because its a place for the community to go and you can't blame official forums for a failure of a game.... like SWG that game failed because of Lucas Arts and SOE ruining it, not the forums because they ignored them.
when i first heard that they weren't going to be doing "official" forums a year or two ago i was like "wtf, how can you not have forums". now i honestly don't care all that much, i've dealt with the cesspools of the WOW forums and the Age of Conan forums enough to realize that while there can be some decent info gained from the forums, sometimes it's just not worth it. and as far as the person saying that there is more positive and productive posts than negative ones--that is true, but usually the negative posts get bumped more often and fill up the front pages which makes finding the positive and productive posts a pain in the ass sometimes.
as far as having a place where you can discuss your different classes/races, i've found that it's not uncommon for the forums to not have the information i'm looking for and end up having to go to several different sites anyways. without having an official forum, people are going to migrate to a couple main ones--warhammer alliance will probably one of the big ones and i would expect to get decent class discussions there, just like i would from an official class forum.
honestly, if you provide a forum it's also your job to keep it clean. one of the reasons the wow-forum has such a bad rep is because there is either too much or too less moderation - another example would be the lotro forums: tidy and informative, not the swamp ppl say "official forums always are".
on another note, as CM/CSR/mod you sign up for a job that may require to get dirt thrown at you. if someone can't handle that, sorry - get another job. this kind of job is usually the only connection between you (the player) and the company, so when players get angry or dissatisfied they point their anger at the only company ppl available (with the whole "internet overreaction", face to face these ppl would behave quite differently ).
ofc, a forum costs money (platform, moderation etc.). they can safe some by just putting up forums without much personal - like blizz - or just scrap it alltogether to safe more. but if you do that you shouldn't expect an objective opinion somewhere else, especially in a FANforum (imagine the hardcore-pve'er posting in a pvp forum.. riiight).
so yeah.. having no offical forum is either stupid arrogance or simple greed. especially if you pay a sub to play, f2p may get away with it.
Remarkable that he really compares us, the customers, to a Tyrannosaurus. There is no excuse for the lack of official forums. Period.
He's very clearly not describing every customer as a dangerous dinosaur. In the context of what was said, it's clear that he was talking about the specific people who express their frustrations in abusive and threatening ways.
You don't agree with the call, that's fine, but you're taking that statement way out of context.
no official forums means that if a dev makes a post somewhere, i have to search and find which forum he posted on and find what he said, or hope that everyone on whatever forums i may read, copies that thread.
no official forums means that when devs make announcements or CUSTOMERS have technical issues, they don't have an easy one-stop reference.
no official forums means that all the players who make guides on classes, questing, rvr'ing, or whatever... have them spread out all over the internet. can i go hear and find guides on all the different war classes? or do i have to search all over the 'net in order to try and find guides about things?
no official forums means that the gaming company cares THAT little about their customers and their customers' convenience that THEY (the gaming company) can't be bothered to put official forums.
honestly, i'm enjoying war. but the disrespect inherent to no official forums is appalling, ESPECIALLY with mr. jacobs giving the reason he gave. if i have to hunt and search to find BASIC gaming information (which isn't covered on the official website, in the book that came with the game, nor is it in the in-game help); and there's not a one-stop official forum to go look and i LITERALLY went to over a dozen fansites in order to find what i thought should be simple instructions... that irks me to no end.
mythic needs to pull their heads out of their asses, put up some official forums so that technical support and guides to everything are easily available to their paying customers.
if they are too chickenshit to do this... i don't see a reason to continue to play and support a game full of devs who are skeered that someone might say something bad about their game.
reminds me too much of the WONDERFUL people who created vanguard.
i can, and am, overlooking a lot of "not quite right" stuff in war (which is NOT their first mmo, so you should expect a quite stunning launch)... lack of official forums is NOT something i plan on overlooking... ever.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
No game company is obligated to provid a forum. There are other forums available that get monitored and in-game tools to provide feedback. Most forums contain excessive abusive feedback that gets repeated thousands of times. If you're unhappy with the game you can express your opinion to them directly, the fact that they're not giving you a tool to share it with the rest of the world is fine.
Perhaps when the MMO community matures a little and learns some manners in regards to providing constructive posts and not polls on who's leaving at the end of the month they'll provide official forums. Till then I can't blame em.
The fact that there are so many posts here saying it's a cop-out to not give you a place to abuse them proves this point. Otherwise why would it be considered a cop-out?
see my reply below yours someplace...
but... where do you go for those nifty technical problems? heaven forbid a gaming company have a single place where all the players can go to see how to tweak vista, or what settings on a video card might need to be changed, or a plethora of common problems that not only official people comment on, but also players. how many different fansites is reasonable for you to be expected to visit? are these fansites going to have mods that ensure a lot of false information and/or viruses aren't being passed to trusting folks?
wondering about trying a new class and don't want to gimp it from the go and have to pay for multiple respecs because there are things you really just didn't understand? go find a nifty little class guide. see a bunch of them for witch hunters right now? what about squig herders? heck, the game has been out for nearly a week, between beta testers and hardcore fools, there IS lvl 40 experience out there and i'm sure there's several people already throwing guides online... where? could you point me to which fansites EXACTLY have nifty guides about the how's and why's of those two classes?
hey, i'm on such and such server, playing X faction and i'd like to see, at a glance, which guilds are there and what they're saying they are all about... how many fansites, EXACTLY, have a crapton of guilds from all servers and both factions, posting recruiting adds... like guilds would do on official forums?
when devs make posts of interest to the entire community... how many fansites is it reasonable for me to visit in order to see these posts made by the devs of the game i paid for a box and a monthly fee, to be a reasonable number? is my sense of entitlement so out of whack to think that this and the above reasons are legitimate and far outweigh someone's sense of "don't say nuffin bad about me cuz i'm skeered"?
these, and more, are reasons why a gaming company, in this day and age, refusing to have official forums, are complete bullshit.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
A while ago, official game forums were a big part of the online community, where people exchanged views and generally had fun, also voiced their their frustrations but most of the times in a more or less civilised manners.
Since MMOs went up in numbers, official game forums became a combination of whining and verbal abuse, with some imformative posts.
Good way to get sick of the MMO you enjoy playing is if you strart reading the official forums. The sheer amount of whining and complaining gets to you in a way even if you enjoy the game at that time.
Forums or no forums, I have never seen any MMO developers go forth and communicate with the community on all bigger un-official forums, posting elaborate and informative stuff and not just some run on the mill default answers like most other companies do. I appreciate that much more as a customer than having an official forums. They also tend not to hinde when they screw up something, and generally admit their mistakes and try repairing it and that also goes a long way with me.
All in all Mythic people were more active with the community in terms of quality and quantity of the communication, forum or no forum.
Sadly he only focusses on the negative bits of having official forums. : /
I for one always enjoyed the interaction in especially the realm forums; people organizing events, making art, posting rl pictures, stating their respect for certain skillful oponents, getting people to join your guild, publishing their guild's latest achievements and yes, making new friends.
I hope he'll reconsider his stance on this.
The negative issues he describes can be delt with by mods, simple as that.
Aye, it costs them a little more money but it gives the community one central board for out of game interaction which is to me, an important thing to any mmo.
Besides, they shouldn't be afraid that the posters will flame WAR to death on their hometurf like on the AoC forums since it is a kick ass game anyway and they have always been open an honest with us.
GOA didn't solve crap. Many people(Including myself) still can't log in on peak hours. Some can't even log in at all, except for late nights and early mornings. Horrid lag spikes for some as well.
A while ago, official game forums were a big part of the online community, where people exchanged views and generally had fun, also voiced their their frustrations but most of the times in a more or less civilised manners. Since MMOs went up in numbers, official game forums became a combination of whining and verbal abuse, with some imformative posts. Good way to get sick of the MMO you enjoy playing is if you strart reading the official forums. The sheer amount of whining and complaining gets to you in a way even if you enjoy the game at that time. Forums or no forums, I have never seen any MMO developers go forth and communicate with the community on all bigger un-official forums, posting elaborate and informative stuff and not just some run on the mill default answers like most other companies do. I appreciate that much more as a customer than having an official forums. They also tend not to hinde when they screw up something, and generally admit their mistakes and try repairing it and that also goes a long way with me. All in all Mythic people were more active with the community in terms of quality and quantity of the communication, forum or no forum.
so, all this communication from mythic... how is that helping me if i'm looking for technical support help? if i'm wanting to see what all guilds are recruiting for a specific faction on a specific realm? how does that help me, as a customer, if i'm looking for player created guides? if i'm having those technical problems and i'd like to know that someone isn't pulling my leg or trying to do harmful things to my box?
that's great that YOU, as a customer, appreciate random podcasts from a jolly developer during beta. how exactly does that help the rest of us customers with any of the above?
can you tell me where i can find all of the above in one convenient location, where i can rest assured that i'm not being led astray?
if not, then it's complete rubbish.
communication my hindquarters. i re-read the interview and jacobs doesn't say that a certain part of his paying customer are dinosaurs, i don't even see it implied that he's referring to just a part of the paying public.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It has always amazed me how fanboys can support any decision their favorite companies makes, no matter how terrible that decision sounds. ”No forums” is a cheap move. It is not only saves money for Mythica but this is the perfect way to avoid any responsibilities and in the same time keep "carrot on stick" on unofficial forums for customers. Developers can promise mountains of gold on those "unofficial" forums and diaries. And if anyone later asks "where are all those promises?" they can simply answer "you know, it was just a thoughts. Unofficial opinion". Perfect!
Expanded version of BG from WoW (as WAR is) is a fun game, but Mark's bragging reminds me of Brad McQuaid.
MMORPG.com Managing Editor Jon Wood had the opportunity to speak with Mythic Entertainment boss Mark Jacobs about GOA, forums and Mythic accountability.
Just before the launch of Mythic Entertainment's Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, I had the opportunity to sit down and talk about the game. We covered a lot of ground in our short interview, and in this half, we talked about talking about everything from the finished product itself to the GOA head start issue to Mythic's decision to forgo official forums and his thoughts on accountability. I started out my conversation with Mark by asking him a question that I asked both Jeff and Josh before him. Was there anything that got into the finished product of the game at the last minute that you were worried wouldn't make it? His answer was the same as Jeff's. "I'm glad the auction house got in on time," he answered with a bit of a chuckle. "That one was touch and go there for a while."
you know what, the more i look at the whole accountability crap that jacobs put out there in that interview... the more i believe that someone THAT bloody arrogant and that honestly gives that little of a crap about me, the customer... he got me on paying for the box; but they won't see another cent from me.
i wish i'd have read that before buying the box. my biggest complaint with SOE is the way they treat their customers.
tie that into the frustration with the lack of documentation about basic gameplay and my having to scour the internet to find information that should be on their website and which WOULD be on official forums... yes, i think i will do exactly as jacobs states and canx my CC... and i'll go the extra mile for his smart-alec generalizations and do my best to spread the "truth" about this game and company.
big ups. now we know without a doubt that soe isn't the exception to the rule.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Hi Stradden, you forget to ask him about the choppy/ lag/ hitches that quite alot of players are experiencing. And how come there's no reply from the Dev regarding this issue?
Expanded version of BG from WoW (as WAR is) is a fun game, but Mark's bragging reminds me of Brad McQuaid.
Funny, I thought this too. Portent of things to come?
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II "People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
It has always amazed me how fanboys can support any decision their favorite companies makes, no matter how terrible that decision sounds. ”No forums” is a cheap move. It is not only saves money for Mythica but this is the perfect way to avoid any responsibilities and in the same time keep "carrot on stick" on unofficial forums for customers. Developers can promise mountains of gold on those "unofficial" forums and diaries. And if anyone later asks "where are all those promises?" they can simply answer "you know, it was just a thoughts. Unofficial opinion". Perfect! Expanded version of BG from WoW (as WAR is) is a fun game, but Mark's bragging reminds me of Brad McQuaid.
Avoid responsibility? First how do they avoid responsibility when you cancel? 2nd, how does an official forum make them accept resposibility?
No game company is obligated to provid a forum. There are other forums available that get monitored and in-game tools to provide feedback. Most forums contain excessive abusive feedback that gets repeated thousands of times. If you're unhappy with the game you can express your opinion to them directly, the fact that they're not giving you a tool to share it with the rest of the world is fine.
Perhaps when the MMO community matures a little and learns some manners in regards to providing constructive posts and not polls on who's leaving at the end of the month they'll provide official forums. Till then I can't blame em.
The fact that there are so many posts here saying it's a cop-out to not give you a place to abuse them proves this point. Otherwise why would it be considered a cop-out?
This response is such a joke. We aren't dissatisfied with not having an area to "abuse," we're dissatisfied with not having an "official" area to discuss this game we love with the official development team or PR heads.
There is a lot of garbage on the official WoW forums. But guess what? There's infinitely more positive and productive posts that outweigh the negative ones. Not only that, but there's tons of information about the game centralized into one forum. I don't want to have to shoot to two or three different fan sites for an MMO just to find discussion on my specific class/race selection. The companies who developed and produced the game should to provide the necessary hubs to discuss their creation. Not having that because they fear having "their feelings hurt by some forum trolls" is a complete cop-out. No way around it.
I see their devs on other forums... They're not exactly hiding.... They were also very clear upfront their would be no forums, we knew this for years and their other MMO doeesn't have them so how can you be dissapointed?
No game company is obligated to provid a forum. There are other forums available that get monitored and in-game tools to provide feedback. Most forums contain excessive abusive feedback that gets repeated thousands of times. If you're unhappy with the game you can express your opinion to them directly, the fact that they're not giving you a tool to share it with the rest of the world is fine.
Perhaps when the MMO community matures a little and learns some manners in regards to providing constructive posts and not polls on who's leaving at the end of the month they'll provide official forums. Till then I can't blame em.
The fact that there are so many posts here saying it's a cop-out to not give you a place to abuse them proves this point. Otherwise why would it be considered a cop-out?
This response is such a joke. We aren't dissatisfied with not having an area to "abuse," we're dissatisfied with not having an "official" area to discuss this game we love with the official development team or PR heads.
There is a lot of garbage on the official WoW forums. But guess what? There's infinitely more positive and productive posts that outweigh the negative ones. Not only that, but there's tons of information about the game centralized into one forum. I don't want to have to shoot to two or three different fan sites for an MMO just to find discussion on my specific class/race selection. The companies who developed and produced the game should to provide the necessary hubs to discuss their creation. Not having that because they fear having "their feelings hurt by some forum trolls" is a complete cop-out. No way around it.
I see their devs on other forums... They're not exactly hiding.... They were also very clear upfront there would be no forums, we knew this for years and there other MMO doesn't have them so how can you be dissapointed?
I guess here is a good a place as any... Maybe you can ask him why he felt it was necessary to cut off any customers that bought the CE, when we are still being told that the product might ship either yesterday or today.
Nothing says fail, quite like telling some of your hard core customers that you don't deserve some leeway because of a problem way outside our control.
I can understand the no forums rule. It takes a significant investment to police them. Problem with that is that DAoC self destructed because of that. They had a few people monitoring the outside forums and did not listen to the problems these people encountered.
Mythic did about everything in it's power to dissuade the playerbase from playing DAoC through ignoring the problems discussed on the outside forums. Let us hope they listen better on the outside forums this time around. I personally still don't trust them to do so.
Gross things mostly. The more I look at places like MMORPG or "Official" forums at other games...
The more I see the mob... the trash... the types of gamers no one wants in their guild or community.
Certainly there are good posts, good people, and good questions... it's why I wouldn't condone a complete obliteration of the population and a fresh start. One good person is enough.
But official forums? No.
Forums used to be something fans did to help foster a community. To collect like-minded people together who wanted to promote a game. Game-companies saw this and offered to host them for the players so that they didn't have to do it themselves.
That has changed. It is now a crib for babies to whine and give their complaints. Though quality community support and discussion still exists, the horrid amount of crying and complaining... the threats, the requests for nerfs...
the trash!
It is just more than anyone would ever want to manage. No... the day the community stopped policing itself is the day the "official" forums were no longer useful. This way Warhammer Alliance and other places can handle the trash and the devs can pick which forums they think help the game the most.
It is too costly and I never want to see an "Official" forum again.
Forums... Gross things mostly. The more I look at places like MMORPG or "Official" forums at other games... The more I see the mob... the trash... the types of gamers no one wants in their guild or community. Certainly there are good posts, good people, and good questions... it's why I wouldn't condone a complete obliteration of the population and a fresh start. One good person is enough. But official forums? No. Forums used to be something fans did to help foster a community. To collect like-minded people together who wanted to promote a game. Game-companies saw this and offered to host them for the players so that they didn't have to do it themselves. That has changed. It is now a crib for babies to whine and give their complaints. Though quality community support and discussion still exists, the horrid amount of crying and complaining... the threats, the requests for nerfs... the trash! It is just more than anyone would ever want to manage. No... the day the community stopped policing itself is the day the "official" forums were no longer useful. This way Warhammer Alliance and other places can handle the trash and the devs can pick which forums they think help the game the most. It is too costly and I never want to see an "Official" forum again.
While I agree with a lot of what you say, the lack of an official forum has me voting with my credit card already, as in not even buying the game. While the AOC official forums were some of the worst I have ever seen, lurking on there showed me the game was not ready and I would wait 6 or 8 months before I bought it to give them time to work out the kinks. For people, and I think most long term MMO players, the first thing I do before buying a game is have a look at the feed back on the O forums and how the company handles the feed back, positve or negative.
I hate the nerf this and that posts that show on a lot of forums. And mostly it is just crying. Because of this I usually stay away from "general" or class forums. Bug report forums, customer service forums, suggstion forums, and most specifically Realm forums are where I look. These tell me the stability of the game, how the company helps people with technical issues and what the community feels like in the realms.
With out these resources there is no way I am handing them my money.
Remarkable that he really compares us, the customers, to a Tyrannosaurus. There is no excuse for the lack of official forums. Period.
He's very clearly not describing every customer as a dangerous dinosaur. In the context of what was said, it's clear that he was talking about the specific people who express their frustrations in abusive and threatening ways.
You don't agree with the call, that's fine, but you're taking that statement way out of context.
How cute.
I'm kind of glad they don't have official forums, go to Warhammer Alliance and you will see the devs posting every day, multiple times a day. If it's feedback you want to give, than use the tool inside the game.
I don't see what the hubbub is about. If you, as a potential customer, don't like the idea of not having an official forum, then you have but one clear cut and well defined option...Do not purchase the game
You guys are taking it too far comparing Mark to Brad McQuaid. First of all, Mark comes off confident, but I wouldn't say arrogant, second, and the main difference between Mark and Brad is that Mark has actually delivered on his promises and has the managerial skills to see his vision through to the end.
Also, the lack of documentation on the Website or Herald is kind of lame, but the manual included with the game was, surprisingly in this day and age, very informative and described all of the game systems well enough.
While I don't support the no official forum policy, I must say that the devs and community people @ Mythic do do a great job of communicating w/ their customers on the fansite forums. In fact, they post quite often and regularly, the only downside is you have to scour a couple sites to actually find said posts. Mythic does however, and this is very surprising, respond to the feedback submitted through the form on the Herald. When you put everything together, there probably IS as much communication going on between the community and the devs as there would be on an official forum. But I still think they should have one, centralized location for the community to get together and discuss things pertaining to the game.
Yeah, the WoW and AoC forums are perfect examples of how forums can degrade into cesspools that aren't useful for much. But then look @ the EQ2 and/or LoTRO forums, they are perfect examples of official forums done correctly, there is a constant flow of communication not only between player and dev, but between player and player as well. IMHO, if the forums are properly moderated they can be a HUGE boon to the community, and the positives far outwieghs the negatives. Again, Mark is only focusing on the negatives of official forums, he needs to go and look at the EQ2 and LoTRO forums and see how well things flow there.
Really the only reason they're here complaining about not having a forum seems to be because they can't complain there.
The only thing I can agree with is the idea that the O. Forums gives outside people the chance to see how the game is progressing.
But ya know what? Forums are slower to create changes than petitions have ever been. Ya know why? Because it's easier to sift through a database that can be checked and tossed if it's trash than having sift through a list of threads and then lists of posts for the worth while ones.
Not to mention, the devs as has been said actively talk to the players. It may not be an official forum, but how are the results any different? Players complain and ask questions and the devs respond just the same.
Really, there is no reason for the official forums currently because it would be a drain on resources that would only increase costs and delay progress on development and bug fixes because the devs would be dealing with more extraneous crap that they then have to weigh the value of because inevitably there's going to be more than one opinion from more than one large group of players on how to 'fix' something and they can't please both, which means players will just continuously complain more and more as they are known to.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Comments
This response is such a joke. We aren't dissatisfied with not having an area to "abuse," we're dissatisfied with not having an "official" area to discuss this game we love with the official development team or PR heads.
There is a lot of garbage on the official WoW forums. But guess what? There's infinitely more positive and productive posts that outweigh the negative ones. Not only that, but there's tons of information about the game centralized into one forum. I don't want to have to shoot to two or three different fan sites for an MMO just to find discussion on my specific class/race selection. The companies who developed and produced the game should to provide the necessary hubs to discuss their creation. Not having that because they fear having "their feelings hurt by some forum trolls" is a complete cop-out. No way around it.
You need official forums because its a place for the community to go and you can't blame official forums for a failure of a game.... like SWG that game failed because of Lucas Arts and SOE ruining it, not the forums because they ignored them.
when i first heard that they weren't going to be doing "official" forums a year or two ago i was like "wtf, how can you not have forums". now i honestly don't care all that much, i've dealt with the cesspools of the WOW forums and the Age of Conan forums enough to realize that while there can be some decent info gained from the forums, sometimes it's just not worth it. and as far as the person saying that there is more positive and productive posts than negative ones--that is true, but usually the negative posts get bumped more often and fill up the front pages which makes finding the positive and productive posts a pain in the ass sometimes.
as far as having a place where you can discuss your different classes/races, i've found that it's not uncommon for the forums to not have the information i'm looking for and end up having to go to several different sites anyways. without having an official forum, people are going to migrate to a couple main ones--warhammer alliance will probably one of the big ones and i would expect to get decent class discussions there, just like i would from an official class forum.
honestly, if you provide a forum it's also your job to keep it clean. one of the reasons the wow-forum has such a bad rep is because there is either too much or too less moderation - another example would be the lotro forums: tidy and informative, not the swamp ppl say "official forums always are".
on another note, as CM/CSR/mod you sign up for a job that may require to get dirt thrown at you. if someone can't handle that, sorry - get another job.
).
this kind of job is usually the only connection between you (the player) and the company, so when players get angry or dissatisfied they point their anger at the only company ppl available (with the whole "internet overreaction", face to face these ppl would behave quite differently
ofc, a forum costs money (platform, moderation etc.). they can safe some by just putting up forums without much personal - like blizz - or just scrap it alltogether to safe more. but if you do that you shouldn't expect an objective opinion somewhere else, especially in a FANforum (imagine the hardcore-pve'er posting in a pvp forum.. riiight).
so yeah.. having no offical forum is either stupid arrogance or simple greed. especially if you pay a sub to play, f2p may get away with it.
He's very clearly not describing every customer as a dangerous dinosaur. In the context of what was said, it's clear that he was talking about the specific people who express their frustrations in abusive and threatening ways.
You don't agree with the call, that's fine, but you're taking that statement way out of context.
no official forums means that if a dev makes a post somewhere, i have to search and find which forum he posted on and find what he said, or hope that everyone on whatever forums i may read, copies that thread.
no official forums means that when devs make announcements or CUSTOMERS have technical issues, they don't have an easy one-stop reference.
no official forums means that all the players who make guides on classes, questing, rvr'ing, or whatever... have them spread out all over the internet. can i go hear and find guides on all the different war classes? or do i have to search all over the 'net in order to try and find guides about things?
no official forums means that the gaming company cares THAT little about their customers and their customers' convenience that THEY (the gaming company) can't be bothered to put official forums.
honestly, i'm enjoying war. but the disrespect inherent to no official forums is appalling, ESPECIALLY with mr. jacobs giving the reason he gave. if i have to hunt and search to find BASIC gaming information (which isn't covered on the official website, in the book that came with the game, nor is it in the in-game help); and there's not a one-stop official forum to go look and i LITERALLY went to over a dozen fansites in order to find what i thought should be simple instructions... that irks me to no end.
mythic needs to pull their heads out of their asses, put up some official forums so that technical support and guides to everything are easily available to their paying customers.
if they are too chickenshit to do this... i don't see a reason to continue to play and support a game full of devs who are skeered that someone might say something bad about their game.
reminds me too much of the WONDERFUL people who created vanguard.
i can, and am, overlooking a lot of "not quite right" stuff in war (which is NOT their first mmo, so you should expect a quite stunning launch)... lack of official forums is NOT something i plan on overlooking... ever.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
see my reply below yours someplace...
but... where do you go for those nifty technical problems? heaven forbid a gaming company have a single place where all the players can go to see how to tweak vista, or what settings on a video card might need to be changed, or a plethora of common problems that not only official people comment on, but also players. how many different fansites is reasonable for you to be expected to visit? are these fansites going to have mods that ensure a lot of false information and/or viruses aren't being passed to trusting folks?
wondering about trying a new class and don't want to gimp it from the go and have to pay for multiple respecs because there are things you really just didn't understand? go find a nifty little class guide. see a bunch of them for witch hunters right now? what about squig herders? heck, the game has been out for nearly a week, between beta testers and hardcore fools, there IS lvl 40 experience out there and i'm sure there's several people already throwing guides online... where? could you point me to which fansites EXACTLY have nifty guides about the how's and why's of those two classes?
hey, i'm on such and such server, playing X faction and i'd like to see, at a glance, which guilds are there and what they're saying they are all about... how many fansites, EXACTLY, have a crapton of guilds from all servers and both factions, posting recruiting adds... like guilds would do on official forums?
when devs make posts of interest to the entire community... how many fansites is it reasonable for me to visit in order to see these posts made by the devs of the game i paid for a box and a monthly fee, to be a reasonable number? is my sense of entitlement so out of whack to think that this and the above reasons are legitimate and far outweigh someone's sense of "don't say nuffin bad about me cuz i'm skeered"?
these, and more, are reasons why a gaming company, in this day and age, refusing to have official forums, are complete bullshit.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
A while ago, official game forums were a big part of the online community, where people exchanged views and generally had fun, also voiced their their frustrations but most of the times in a more or less civilised manners.
Since MMOs went up in numbers, official game forums became a combination of whining and verbal abuse, with some imformative posts.
Good way to get sick of the MMO you enjoy playing is if you strart reading the official forums. The sheer amount of whining and complaining gets to you in a way even if you enjoy the game at that time.
Forums or no forums, I have never seen any MMO developers go forth and communicate with the community on all bigger un-official forums, posting elaborate and informative stuff and not just some run on the mill default answers like most other companies do. I appreciate that much more as a customer than having an official forums. They also tend not to hinde when they screw up something, and generally admit their mistakes and try repairing it and that also goes a long way with me.
All in all Mythic people were more active with the community in terms of quality and quantity of the communication, forum or no forum.
Sadly he only focusses on the negative bits of having official forums. : /
I for one always enjoyed the interaction in especially the realm forums; people organizing events, making art, posting rl pictures, stating their respect for certain skillful oponents, getting people to join your guild, publishing their guild's latest achievements and yes, making new friends.
I hope he'll reconsider his stance on this.
The negative issues he describes can be delt with by mods, simple as that.
Aye, it costs them a little more money but it gives the community one central board for out of game interaction which is to me, an important thing to any mmo.
Besides, they shouldn't be afraid that the posters will flame WAR to death on their hometurf like on the AoC forums since it is a kick ass game anyway and they have always been open an honest with us.
My brand new bloggity blog.
GOA didn't solve crap. Many people(Including myself) still can't log in on peak hours. Some can't even log in at all, except for late nights and early mornings. Horrid lag spikes for some as well.
so, all this communication from mythic... how is that helping me if i'm looking for technical support help? if i'm wanting to see what all guilds are recruiting for a specific faction on a specific realm? how does that help me, as a customer, if i'm looking for player created guides? if i'm having those technical problems and i'd like to know that someone isn't pulling my leg or trying to do harmful things to my box?
that's great that YOU, as a customer, appreciate random podcasts from a jolly developer during beta. how exactly does that help the rest of us customers with any of the above?
can you tell me where i can find all of the above in one convenient location, where i can rest assured that i'm not being led astray?
if not, then it's complete rubbish.
communication my hindquarters. i re-read the interview and jacobs doesn't say that a certain part of his paying customer are dinosaurs, i don't even see it implied that he's referring to just a part of the paying public.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It has always amazed me how fanboys can support any decision their favorite companies makes, no matter how terrible that decision sounds. ”No forums” is a cheap move. It is not only saves money for Mythica but this is the perfect way to avoid any responsibilities and in the same time keep "carrot on stick" on unofficial forums for customers. Developers can promise mountains of gold on those "unofficial" forums and diaries. And if anyone later asks "where are all those promises?" they can simply answer "you know, it was just a thoughts. Unofficial opinion". Perfect!
Expanded version of BG from WoW (as WAR is) is a fun game, but Mark's bragging reminds me of Brad McQuaid.
Read the first part of the interview here.
you know what, the more i look at the whole accountability crap that jacobs put out there in that interview... the more i believe that someone THAT bloody arrogant and that honestly gives that little of a crap about me, the customer... he got me on paying for the box; but they won't see another cent from me.
i wish i'd have read that before buying the box. my biggest complaint with SOE is the way they treat their customers.
tie that into the frustration with the lack of documentation about basic gameplay and my having to scour the internet to find information that should be on their website and which WOULD be on official forums... yes, i think i will do exactly as jacobs states and canx my CC... and i'll go the extra mile for his smart-alec generalizations and do my best to spread the "truth" about this game and company.
big ups. now we know without a doubt that soe isn't the exception to the rule.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Hi Stradden, you forget to ask him about the choppy/ lag/ hitches that quite alot of players are experiencing. And how come there's no reply from the Dev regarding this issue?
he can refer to Warhammer-alliance tech forum....
Thank you
RIP Orc Choppa
Funny, I thought this too. Portent of things to come?
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
Avoid responsibility? First how do they avoid responsibility when you cancel? 2nd, how does an official forum make them accept resposibility?
This response is such a joke. We aren't dissatisfied with not having an area to "abuse," we're dissatisfied with not having an "official" area to discuss this game we love with the official development team or PR heads.
There is a lot of garbage on the official WoW forums. But guess what? There's infinitely more positive and productive posts that outweigh the negative ones. Not only that, but there's tons of information about the game centralized into one forum. I don't want to have to shoot to two or three different fan sites for an MMO just to find discussion on my specific class/race selection. The companies who developed and produced the game should to provide the necessary hubs to discuss their creation. Not having that because they fear having "their feelings hurt by some forum trolls" is a complete cop-out. No way around it.
I see their devs on other forums... They're not exactly hiding.... They were also very clear upfront their would be no forums, we knew this for years and their other MMO doeesn't have them so how can you be dissapointed?
This response is such a joke. We aren't dissatisfied with not having an area to "abuse," we're dissatisfied with not having an "official" area to discuss this game we love with the official development team or PR heads.
There is a lot of garbage on the official WoW forums. But guess what? There's infinitely more positive and productive posts that outweigh the negative ones. Not only that, but there's tons of information about the game centralized into one forum. I don't want to have to shoot to two or three different fan sites for an MMO just to find discussion on my specific class/race selection. The companies who developed and produced the game should to provide the necessary hubs to discuss their creation. Not having that because they fear having "their feelings hurt by some forum trolls" is a complete cop-out. No way around it.
I see their devs on other forums... They're not exactly hiding.... They were also very clear upfront there would be no forums, we knew this for years and there other MMO doesn't have them so how can you be dissapointed?
I guess here is a good a place as any... Maybe you can ask him why he felt it was necessary to cut off any customers that bought the CE, when we are still being told that the product might ship either yesterday or today.
Nothing says fail, quite like telling some of your hard core customers that you don't deserve some leeway because of a problem way outside our control.
I can understand the no forums rule. It takes a significant investment to police them. Problem with that is that DAoC self destructed because of that. They had a few people monitoring the outside forums and did not listen to the problems these people encountered.
Mythic did about everything in it's power to dissuade the playerbase from playing DAoC through ignoring the problems discussed on the outside forums. Let us hope they listen better on the outside forums this time around. I personally still don't trust them to do so.
Forums...
Gross things mostly. The more I look at places like MMORPG or "Official" forums at other games...
The more I see the mob... the trash... the types of gamers no one wants in their guild or community.
Certainly there are good posts, good people, and good questions... it's why I wouldn't condone a complete obliteration of the population and a fresh start. One good person is enough.
But official forums? No.
Forums used to be something fans did to help foster a community. To collect like-minded people together who wanted to promote a game. Game-companies saw this and offered to host them for the players so that they didn't have to do it themselves.
That has changed. It is now a crib for babies to whine and give their complaints. Though quality community support and discussion still exists, the horrid amount of crying and complaining... the threats, the requests for nerfs...
the trash!
It is just more than anyone would ever want to manage. No... the day the community stopped policing itself is the day the "official" forums were no longer useful. This way Warhammer Alliance and other places can handle the trash and the devs can pick which forums they think help the game the most.
It is too costly and I never want to see an "Official" forum again.
While I agree with a lot of what you say, the lack of an official forum has me voting with my credit card already, as in not even buying the game. While the AOC official forums were some of the worst I have ever seen, lurking on there showed me the game was not ready and I would wait 6 or 8 months before I bought it to give them time to work out the kinks. For people, and I think most long term MMO players, the first thing I do before buying a game is have a look at the feed back on the O forums and how the company handles the feed back, positve or negative.
I hate the nerf this and that posts that show on a lot of forums. And mostly it is just crying. Because of this I usually stay away from "general" or class forums. Bug report forums, customer service forums, suggstion forums, and most specifically Realm forums are where I look. These tell me the stability of the game, how the company helps people with technical issues and what the community feels like in the realms.
With out these resources there is no way I am handing them my money.
He's very clearly not describing every customer as a dangerous dinosaur. In the context of what was said, it's clear that he was talking about the specific people who express their frustrations in abusive and threatening ways.
You don't agree with the call, that's fine, but you're taking that statement way out of context.
How cute.
I'm kind of glad they don't have official forums, go to Warhammer Alliance and you will see the devs posting every day, multiple times a day. If it's feedback you want to give, than use the tool inside the game.
I don't see what the hubbub is about. If you, as a potential customer, don't like the idea of not having an official forum, then you have but one clear cut and well defined option...Do not purchase the game
You guys are taking it too far comparing Mark to Brad McQuaid. First of all, Mark comes off confident, but I wouldn't say arrogant, second, and the main difference between Mark and Brad is that Mark has actually delivered on his promises and has the managerial skills to see his vision through to the end.
Also, the lack of documentation on the Website or Herald is kind of lame, but the manual included with the game was, surprisingly in this day and age, very informative and described all of the game systems well enough.
While I don't support the no official forum policy, I must say that the devs and community people @ Mythic do do a great job of communicating w/ their customers on the fansite forums. In fact, they post quite often and regularly, the only downside is you have to scour a couple sites to actually find said posts. Mythic does however, and this is very surprising, respond to the feedback submitted through the form on the Herald. When you put everything together, there probably IS as much communication going on between the community and the devs as there would be on an official forum. But I still think they should have one, centralized location for the community to get together and discuss things pertaining to the game.
Yeah, the WoW and AoC forums are perfect examples of how forums can degrade into cesspools that aren't useful for much. But then look @ the EQ2 and/or LoTRO forums, they are perfect examples of official forums done correctly, there is a constant flow of communication not only between player and dev, but between player and player as well. IMHO, if the forums are properly moderated they can be a HUGE boon to the community, and the positives far outwieghs the negatives. Again, Mark is only focusing on the negatives of official forums, he needs to go and look at the EQ2 and LoTRO forums and see how well things flow there.
Really the only reason they're here complaining about not having a forum seems to be because they can't complain there.
The only thing I can agree with is the idea that the O. Forums gives outside people the chance to see how the game is progressing.
But ya know what? Forums are slower to create changes than petitions have ever been. Ya know why? Because it's easier to sift through a database that can be checked and tossed if it's trash than having sift through a list of threads and then lists of posts for the worth while ones.
Not to mention, the devs as has been said actively talk to the players. It may not be an official forum, but how are the results any different? Players complain and ask questions and the devs respond just the same.
Really, there is no reason for the official forums currently because it would be a drain on resources that would only increase costs and delay progress on development and bug fixes because the devs would be dealing with more extraneous crap that they then have to weigh the value of because inevitably there's going to be more than one opinion from more than one large group of players on how to 'fix' something and they can't please both, which means players will just continuously complain more and more as they are known to.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin