While WAR didnt push the standard on all fronts. It did push it toward team PvP and player socializing. The fact that tanks can tank and casters arnt the first to die in pvp is a welcome change. Ive had teams(they knew how to play too) who held off zerg after zerg from destruction outnumberd and outlvled. Strategy wins the battle (which i was hoping for since it was called Warhammer). Mythic made finding and creating groups seem natural in WAR. Groups and warbands are a common occurence. Whether this is from Open partys, PQs or maybe even small limited global chats(people have to get there chat fix somehow) not sure but whatever mythic did it works. Now WAR, like DAOC, caters to a niche market. And it pushed the standards for that market. But since the MMORPG community thinks the market is of one mind and taste it will never get the recognition. I mean Ive read people bash WAR cause it wasnt a sandbox. LOL There are PvE games (the beast of mmorpgs), PvP games, and Sandbox games. Wow is more of a Jack of all trades, master of none. Or in AoC case Jack of nothing, waste of time. And just like EQ (how many remeber the EQ killer days) only a PvE game will take the throne. Yadda yadda yadda. All you destruction players suck and order will dominate you all. Funcom fails again and mythic saves the day.
It isn't.
WAR is in a generation that preceeds World of Warcraft.
Heck, even Meridian 59 is more advanced and that launched in 1996.
They just have learn some word, many spread around on game forums, when they like something and they call it nex gen.
OP and many here dont even have a clue what nex gen is or sandbox for that matter.
And they make a fool of themselfs by even mention sandbox becouse WAR is themepark there is no comparison at all and in both type of games can be posible nex gen, but thats a whole other matter for discussion on whats realy nex gen.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
While WAR didnt push the standard on all fronts. It did push it toward team PvP and player socializing. The fact that tanks can tank and casters arnt the first to die in pvp is a welcome change. Ive had teams(they knew how to play too) who held off zerg after zerg from destruction outnumberd and outlvled. Strategy wins the battle (which i was hoping for since it was called Warhammer). Mythic made finding and creating groups seem natural in WAR. Groups and warbands are a common occurence. Whether this is from Open partys, PQs or maybe even small limited global chats(people have to get there chat fix somehow) not sure but whatever mythic did it works. Now WAR, like DAOC, caters to a niche market. And it pushed the standards for that market. But since the MMORPG community thinks the market is of one mind and taste it will never get the recognition. I mean Ive read people bash WAR cause it wasnt a sandbox. LOL There are PvE games (the beast of mmorpgs), PvP games, and Sandbox games. Wow is more of a Jack of all trades, master of none. Or in AoC case Jack of nothing, waste of time. And just like EQ (how many remeber the EQ killer days) only a PvE game will take the throne. Yadda yadda yadda. All you destruction players suck and order will dominate you all. Funcom fails again and mythic saves the day.
So you like WAR thats ok np there your aloud to be a fan of WAR:P
But then you attached a label on it and call it nex gen becouse you can teamplay in pvp more then wow and can CHAT better then other mmorpgs lol.
So in a way your saying WAR have improved BARRENS CHAT for you chat lovers who use WAR to socialize more and chat whole day :P
WAR = next gen barrens chat OP says:P
And for those who bash WAR becouse its not sandbox is becouse they dont have a clue on what WAR is or know what sandbox vs themepark is there just general trolls whining whenever they can.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
What mechanics exactly make it next gen? You give such a broad word, like mechanics, and yet really dont list anything specific about the game mechanics. Gameplay is far from next gen, which would be part of this Mechanics you allude to.
Perhaps you would like to enlighten us on your knowledge of game design and which mechanics you feel that 100% is next gen. I mean, its not like any of the gameplay has been done before right? like even in..say.. daoc. Hmm actually they have been done... way back.
Strange no?
No I wasn't just meaning RvR, my friend. It is the complete package of game mechanics which makes WAR a next generation game in that regard. And it exists of tons of intelligent measure that they took to improve on the mechanics that we have all grown used to, be it in WoW LotrO, AoC and most other mmorpgs.
To name but a few:
- Smart zone design with well placed quest hubs and flight points + quests in the immediate area without the zones feeling unnatural at all.
^This isnt a mechanic. This is an opinion. In this case WoW was also next gen and their xpac will be next gen too. They packaged everything together into one solid form which is highly accessible, just like WAR. Thus you seem to think its also next gen going by the same opinion.
The zones are actually quite old-gen. Its one block on top of another block. A ladder if you will. Basically, 3 rectangles on top of one another. Thats not next gen. Thats direct simplification, which carries its own pros and cons.
The zones were designed to allow racial pairings to clash at certain points during pve. For instance, dwarf/greenskin pairing in tier 1 has a few hotspots where pvp will happen outside of the RVR zones. To some this is linear, to others, and to mythic, I am sure that this is intelligent design. Focus players towards conflict. But as you said, there are pros and cons in any decision and this choice in design is neither good nor bad. It fits a design goals.
- The seamless implementation of PQ and RvR areas in every zone which make the zones more interesting and alive in my opinion. The whole world is FULL of things for you and your guildies to raid, claim, siege or defend. Tier 4, when most have reached level 40 will be one hell of a battlefield where guilds who organize there own events and have good tactics going will have the chance to shine.
^In game events are not a new thing. In fact, they have been around for a long time. Mythic put in a basic system into play that has already existed in other forms. Each PQ and RVR is based of variables, if those variables, aka conditions are met, then A happens, if not B happens and its over. Kill X zombies. Spawn X super zombies. Kill X super zombies. Spawn X Hero Zombie. Timer hits 0. If Time = 0, then X PQ reset timer begins.
These are merely PvE scripting. Honestly, WoW has done this in their raid dungeons. While they do not involve PvP, they do use very similar scripted PvE commands. There is no AI going on here. You are simply performing a group "wow like raid dungeon" in which depending on the server you pick, can have enemy players come in and attack you.
One could go so far as to say even the next, next, next gen game are all just a bunch of variables. When we break dicussions down into variables as you do here, it's no longer worth discussing as you're ending the conversation on an artificial note. All games from now to the future are just scripts and variables and true AI will not be coming to consumer gaming for the forseeable future.
Further more, the blend of pve and pvp is not next gen. Im not saying its bad. I love it. Its the way games should be, but this mechanic is just as dated. What mythic did was make it easy, clearly defined, funneled into one place and kept organized within the box they give you to play in.
Thats a good thing. Not next gen. Its that, if it aint broke, dont fix it, mentality.
Everything you explained up there is being done, and has been done, in other games. Heck even Shadow Bane to some extent.
I completely disagree with you on this. As with the previous paragraph, you've ended the discussion on a whim. Your reasoning labels any and all contributions to the genre as "nothing new". Sure most things are nothing new. However, you're still taking the bits apart and not looking at the package as a whole. As a whole, WAR is making people relook at the traditional concepts of what an MMO is or can be or can do.
You may not agree with it but disagreement shouldn't blind one to the contributions made when they ARE made. WAR brings several features and concept over that many from now onwards will adopt.
Is WAR revolutionary? No. It is evolutionary. But with it, it brings many new ideas to the table. I will at least give that to them rather than deny it by simply waving my hand and dismissing it as being done before--which isn't entirely true.
- Having the choice to level either by pvp, by PQ's or in the tier of your choice in your level range without forcing us to perform the 'traveling time sink' which we saw in many other games. -> makes the game ooze freedom instead of feeling linaer which many people tend to think when they read about tiers and stuff.
^while many players have always wanted their level xp to be counted in PvP, instead of separated by PvP xp and PvE xp, its not next gen. Its convenient, its what players want, but thats not a next gen feature. Its basically saying, heres your cake, and you can eat it too.
OK you're stretching now. It doesn't matter if people wanted pvp/pve cohesion. The fact that WAR manages it well and without strongly alienating people is a true innovation. Name me one MMORPG that has efffectively done this? Again you are waving your hand and dismissing a difficult and often failed feat. "pfft whatever" is what you are saying.
I will give this to WAR that they did right.
On that note, you say that that features oozes freedom. Im sorry, but WAR is very linear. You really dont have that many things you can do, you just level, and the only way to equip certain gear is to have renown points, which is the same thing as WoW's pvp xp currency or other games pvp xp.
I spent a great deal of time exploring in WAR and got quite well rewarded for my efforts. Linear progression is inherent in a quest based system. What they provide outside that realm of progression is very important and completely up to the individual to find and play with. If you haven't started using yout TOK yet, then yes, the game is linear. Superficially it is linear. Actual gameplay wise, it's got a great many things to do if a player puts some effort into it rather than have the game decide what you should do for you--questing already does that. The TOK is open ended in many ways.
Mythic combined xp to happen in both pvp and pve, its not new, but its what we like, they still however kept in the pvp only xp which is still required to have certain abilities and equipment. RR is the time sink as seen in many a game.
No. RR is character progression. It;'s what you can do with the realm rank that is different. You get realm points that you can spend to customize YOUR toon the way you want it to and in fact is much more customizable than the linear nature of the pve level growth.
Gear equipping is only one effect of gaining rank. In WoW, your points do nothing but act as currency to buy gear. it is a very closed and narrow form of character progression. In WAR's system, it is the complete package for progression. This is something DAOC did right and this is something that carried over from wAR.
If you mean it's not innovative because Mythic already did it then you are right. However, I have yet to see a similar system presented to the current market.
Again, I will give credit where credit is due. If I had to credit mythic for anything, it is that they give you a very complete package for character development even after max level. Many games simply fail horribly at this.
- Apart from the first stages of PQ's there is not much grinding involved in WAR, and certainly not in mats for professions like the hours and hours I spend grinding thorium in WoW.
^Theres grinding, only its fun. Further more, for crafting you really do have to grind and grind to get the mats you need, because not everything is available to you that you really need. Crafting needs some work, but it really comes down to making talismens for equipment or potions. You still need to get your crafting rank high enough to make things you want.
- Lack of timesinks make the game more diverse. In WoW or Lotro I could spend a whole night working on one instance; getting the group together, getting there, wiping a few times and finishing up and the night was over. In the same night in WAR you have been doing multiple things; tonight I have done a few PQ's (won blue shoulders, yay!), been RvR'ing and did some Scenario's. Alltogether a load of varied fun
-Guild rank, city ranks, Renown ranks, Tome unlocks. These are time sinks. They will take you a long time to complete. Thankfully, some of it is a group project, and the other are fun. They are still time sinks, but you will maybe enjoy the process.
Every game is a time sink. Again you are dismissing and waving your hand effectively ending conversation. WAR manages to manage the time sink well. Even WoW can't manage that properly. It isn't about masking timesink. It is about managing it to make it enjoyable-so that effort feels like it equals reward. In most cases, WAR provides that in almost all its features. In this way, it is complete as an experience.
- Renown Points, leveling your renown rank and unlocking special abilities is awesome. It adds another layer to making progress. You have to keep track of two bars instead of one in WAR. (You also see the renown you earn by healing your mates in rvr or pvp).
^renown points, aka pvp xp. It exists in many games, including WoW's pvp xpcurrency. Dont be fooled by another name. Its pvp xp/pvp lvls needed to get and use loot and tactics. Been done, kinda old. Different name, same function.
I replied a couple para above about the realm points system. You're being dissmissive again and essentially are saying, what's the difference between a combustion vehicle and a steam driven vehicle..it's all locomotion but in different name and form. It is and it isn't.
- Doing away with money sinks: bag space scaling with you without the need to buy any and a default bank of 80 slots. I have yet to see what people will be spending their gold on at later levels but I am sure that gold sellers wont find many customers in the first 30 or so levels of WAR.
^It has money sinks. The economy, if you want that purple gear its gonna cost you. Some tier 3 gear seems to be appearing for around 30-40gold already. Rank 1 mounts going for 1g. Renown gear going up in price as you level up as well. Eventually Mythic will add more features in which to fluxuate their economy via spending of that pent up gold.
I have earned over 100g in WAR already and I still find ways to spend much of it.
Currently this is manageable as the economy hsan't really started yet. I won't get into this as of right now, it's kind of pointless to discuss.
- A very worked out guild system with its own levels, and mechanics; working your ass off for your for your guild now has real benefits that will set you apart from others.
^Guild levels and ranks have existed in other games. The act of Mythic making it simple and fun is not next gen. Its just nice and clean for us with guilds. Btw, what you describe is a time sink. There are many in war, just hidden with different names in different locations.
Again, masking timesinks and managing the timesink is a fine line between absolute good and absolute evil. WAR tows the line very well. Other games mask it or outright don't bother to hide it (WoW).
And I am forgetting tons of things now.
Bottom lines; Mythic really did their best to do away with most annoyances of players in existing mmo's and focussed completely on trying to raise the percentage of people's game time on doing the actual fun and interesting stuff by making more of that and making it easier available out in the open world. And that is for me the way in how they made a next generation mmo. It might not look so very special or different at a first glance, but the game grows on you tremendously at later levels. ^_^
FANMAN out.
Bottom Line: WAR is fun, well packaged and simply accessable. Some of us love it. Its still not next gen...at all. I dont care if it is or isnt, but generally speaking, I like to take it as it is, not something I pretend it to be. I'm not attacking you personally, however the next gen tag is a no go, that all.
I would agree that the bottom line is, WAR is fun and brings more of the same. however, it does some things new and expands some things so well and packages it so completely that many other games will follow suite. I will give them that credit and I think it is fair to give it to them rather than dismissing it away.
It also manages the time sink rather than masks it. People's time and effort are rewarded in managebale intervals and this makes it satisfying rather than a snore fest. Good for them and good for the industry that they are pushing that kind of boundary. Good for players as well.
What mechanics exactly make it next gen? You give such a broad word, like mechanics, and yet really dont list anything specific about the game mechanics. Gameplay is far from next gen, which would be part of this Mechanics you allude to.
Perhaps you would like to enlighten us on your knowledge of game design and which mechanics you feel that 100% is next gen. I mean, its not like any of the gameplay has been done before right? like even in..say.. daoc. Hmm actually they have been done... way back.
Strange no?
No I wasn't just meaning RvR, my friend. It is the complete package of game mechanics which makes WAR a next generation game in that regard. And it exists of tons of intelligent measure that they took to improve on the mechanics that we have all grown used to, be it in WoW LotrO, AoC and most other mmorpgs.
To name but a few:
- Smart zone design with well placed quest hubs and flight points + quests in the immediate area without the zones feeling unnatural at all.
^This isnt a mechanic. This is an opinion. In this case WoW was also next gen and their xpac will be next gen too. They packaged everything together into one solid form which is highly accessible, just like WAR. Thus you seem to think its also next gen going by the same opinion.
The zones are actually quite old-gen. Its one block on top of another block. A ladder if you will. Basically, 3 rectangles on top of one another. Thats not next gen. Thats direct simplification, which carries its own pros and cons.
The zones were designed to allow racial pairings to clash at certain points during pve. For instance, dwarf/greenskin pairing in tier 1 has a few hotspots where pvp will happen outside of the RVR zones. To some this is linear, to others, and to mythic, I am sure that this is intelligent design. Focus players towards conflict. But as you said, there are pros and cons in any decision and this choice in design is neither good nor bad. It fits a design goals.
- The seamless implementation of PQ and RvR areas in every zone which make the zones more interesting and alive in my opinion. The whole world is FULL of things for you and your guildies to raid, claim, siege or defend. Tier 4, when most have reached level 40 will be one hell of a battlefield where guilds who organize there own events and have good tactics going will have the chance to shine.
^In game events are not a new thing. In fact, they have been around for a long time. Mythic put in a basic system into play that has already existed in other forms. Each PQ and RVR is based of variables, if those variables, aka conditions are met, then A happens, if not B happens and its over. Kill X zombies. Spawn X super zombies. Kill X super zombies. Spawn X Hero Zombie. Timer hits 0. If Time = 0, then X PQ reset timer begins.
These are merely PvE scripting. Honestly, WoW has done this in their raid dungeons. While they do not involve PvP, they do use very similar scripted PvE commands. There is no AI going on here. You are simply performing a group "wow like raid dungeon" in which depending on the server you pick, can have enemy players come in and attack you.
One could go so far as to say even the next, next, next gen game are all just a bunch of variables. When we break dicussions down into variables as you do here, it's no longer worth discussing as you're ending the conversation on an artificial note. All games from now to the future are just scripts and variables and true AI will not be coming to consumer gaming for the forseeable future.
Further more, the blend of pve and pvp is not next gen. Im not saying its bad. I love it. Its the way games should be, but this mechanic is just as dated. What mythic did was make it easy, clearly defined, funneled into one place and kept organized within the box they give you to play in.
Thats a good thing. Not next gen. Its that, if it aint broke, dont fix it, mentality.
Everything you explained up there is being done, and has been done, in other games. Heck even Shadow Bane to some extent.
I completely disagree with you on this. As with the previous paragraph, you've ended the discussion on a whim. Your reasoning labels any and all contributions to the genre as "nothing new". Sure most things are nothing new. However, you're still taking the bits apart and not looking at the package as a whole. As a whole, WAR is making people relook at the traditional concepts of what an MMO is or can be or can do.
You may not agree with it but disagreement shouldn't blind one to the contributions made when they ARE made. WAR brings several features and concept over that many from now onwards will adopt.
Is WAR revolutionary? No. It is evolutionary. But with it, it brings many new ideas to the table. I will at least give that to them rather than deny it by simply waving my hand and dismissing it as being done before--which isn't entirely true.
- Having the choice to level either by pvp, by PQ's or in the tier of your choice in your level range without forcing us to perform the 'traveling time sink' which we saw in many other games. -> makes the game ooze freedom instead of feeling linaer which many people tend to think when they read about tiers and stuff.
^while many players have always wanted their level xp to be counted in PvP, instead of separated by PvP xp and PvE xp, its not next gen. Its convenient, its what players want, but thats not a next gen feature. Its basically saying, heres your cake, and you can eat it too.
OK you're stretching now. It doesn't matter if people wanted pvp/pve cohesion. The fact that WAR manages it well and without strongly alienating people is a true innovation. Name me one MMORPG that has efffectively done this? Again you are waving your hand and dismissing a difficult and often failed feat. "pfft whatever" is what you are saying.
I will give this to WAR that they did right.
On that note, you say that that features oozes freedom. Im sorry, but WAR is very linear. You really dont have that many things you can do, you just level, and the only way to equip certain gear is to have renown points, which is the same thing as WoW's pvp xp currency or other games pvp xp.
I spent a great deal of time exploring in WAR and got quite well rewarded for my efforts. Linear progression is inherent in a quest based system. What they provide outside that realm of progression is very important and completely up to the individual to find and play with. If you haven't started using yout TOK yet, then yes, the game is linear. Superficially it is linear. Actual gameplay wise, it's got a great many things to do if a player puts some effort into it rather than have the game decide what you should do for you--questing already does that. The TOK is open ended in many ways.
Mythic combined xp to happen in both pvp and pve, its not new, but its what we like, they still however kept in the pvp only xp which is still required to have certain abilities and equipment. RR is the time sink as seen in many a game.
No. RR is character progression. It;'s what you can do with the realm rank that is different. You get realm points that you can spend to customize YOUR toon the way you want it to and in fact is much more customizable than the linear nature of the pve level growth.
Gear equipping is only one effect of gaining rank. In WoW, your points do nothing but act as currency to buy gear. it is a very closed and narrow form of character progression. In WAR's system, it is the complete package for progression. This is something DAOC did right and this is something that carried over from wAR.
If you mean it's not innovative because Mythic already did it then you are right. However, I have yet to see a similar system presented to the current market.
Again, I will give credit where credit is due. If I had to credit mythic for anything, it is that they give you a very complete package for character development even after max level. Many games simply fail horribly at this.
- Apart from the first stages of PQ's there is not much grinding involved in WAR, and certainly not in mats for professions like the hours and hours I spend grinding thorium in WoW.
^Theres grinding, only its fun. Further more, for crafting you really do have to grind and grind to get the mats you need, because not everything is available to you that you really need. Crafting needs some work, but it really comes down to making talismens for equipment or potions. You still need to get your crafting rank high enough to make things you want.
- Lack of timesinks make the game more diverse. In WoW or Lotro I could spend a whole night working on one instance; getting the group together, getting there, wiping a few times and finishing up and the night was over. In the same night in WAR you have been doing multiple things; tonight I have done a few PQ's (won blue shoulders, yay!), been RvR'ing and did some Scenario's. Alltogether a load of varied fun
-Guild rank, city ranks, Renown ranks, Tome unlocks. These are time sinks. They will take you a long time to complete. Thankfully, some of it is a group project, and the other are fun. They are still time sinks, but you will maybe enjoy the process.
Every game is a time sink. Again you are dismissing and waving your hand effectively ending conversation. WAR manages to manage the time sink well. Even WoW can't manage that properly. It isn't about masking timesink. It is about managing it to make it enjoyable-so that effort feels like it equals reward. In most cases, WAR provides that in almost all its features. In this way, it is complete as an experience.
- Renown Points, leveling your renown rank and unlocking special abilities is awesome. It adds another layer to making progress. You have to keep track of two bars instead of one in WAR. (You also see the renown you earn by healing your mates in rvr or pvp).
^renown points, aka pvp xp. It exists in many games, including WoW's pvp xpcurrency. Dont be fooled by another name. Its pvp xp/pvp lvls needed to get and use loot and tactics. Been done, kinda old. Different name, same function.
I replied a couple para above about the realm points system. You're being dissmissive again and essentially are saying, what's the difference between a combustion vehicle and a steam driven vehicle..it's all locomotion but in different name and form. It is and it isn't.
- Doing away with money sinks: bag space scaling with you without the need to buy any and a default bank of 80 slots. I have yet to see what people will be spending their gold on at later levels but I am sure that gold sellers wont find many customers in the first 30 or so levels of WAR.
^It has money sinks. The economy, if you want that purple gear its gonna cost you. Some tier 3 gear seems to be appearing for around 30-40gold already. Rank 1 mounts going for 1g. Renown gear going up in price as you level up as well. Eventually Mythic will add more features in which to fluxuate their economy via spending of that pent up gold.
I have earned over 100g in WAR already and I still find ways to spend much of it.
Currently this is manageable as the economy hsan't really started yet. I won't get into this as of right now, it's kind of pointless to discuss.
- A very worked out guild system with its own levels, and mechanics; working your ass off for your for your guild now has real benefits that will set you apart from others.
^Guild levels and ranks have existed in other games. The act of Mythic making it simple and fun is not next gen. Its just nice and clean for us with guilds. Btw, what you describe is a time sink. There are many in war, just hidden with different names in different locations.
Again, masking timesinks and managing the timesink is a fine line between absolute good and absolute evil. WAR tows the line very well. Other games mask it or outright don't bother to hide it (WoW).
And I am forgetting tons of things now.
Bottom lines; Mythic really did their best to do away with most annoyances of players in existing mmo's and focussed completely on trying to raise the percentage of people's game time on doing the actual fun and interesting stuff by making more of that and making it easier available out in the open world. And that is for me the way in how they made a next generation mmo. It might not look so very special or different at a first glance, but the game grows on you tremendously at later levels. ^_^
FANMAN out.
Bottom Line: WAR is fun, well packaged and simply accessable. Some of us love it. Its still not next gen...at all. I dont care if it is or isnt, but generally speaking, I like to take it as it is, not something I pretend it to be. I'm not attacking you personally, however the next gen tag is a no go, that all.
I would agree that the bottom line is, WAR is fun and brings more of the same. however, it does some things new and expands some things so well and packages it so completely that many other games will follow suite. I will give them that credit and I think it is fair to give it to them rather than dismissing it away.
It also manages the time sink rather than masks it. People's time and effort are rewarded in managebale intervals and this makes it satisfying rather than a snore fest. Good for them and good for the industry that they are pushing that kind of boundary. Good for players as well.
I fully agree with you. And hats of for taking the time to reply on that one. It all boils down to formulating the many improvements WAR brought us in the overall experience of game mechanics I guess;
Some might opt for evolutionary and others might say next generation. Over the whole line it is more an evolution than next generation if you consider things like graphics and combat mechanics which hardly bring anything new. But we were specifically talking about how the game mechanics are designed and in that regard the game is next-gen to me and many others I suppose.
Dislodging every single bit into 'I have seen this before' calls like Rabenwolf does and failing to see the bigger picture of what all these improvements bring as a whole is like spotting trees but failing to realize that you are in a forest.
Comments
It isn't.
WAR is in a generation that preceeds World of Warcraft.
Heck, even Meridian 59 is more advanced and that launched in 1996.
So WAR is a step back towards MUDs I think.
They just have learn some word, many spread around on game forums, when they like something and they call it nex gen.
OP and many here dont even have a clue what nex gen is or sandbox for that matter.
And they make a fool of themselfs by even mention sandbox becouse WAR is themepark there is no comparison at all and in both type of games can be posible nex gen, but thats a whole other matter for discussion on whats realy nex gen.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
So you like WAR thats ok np there your aloud to be a fan of WAR:P
But then you attached a label on it and call it nex gen becouse you can teamplay in pvp more then wow and can CHAT better then other mmorpgs lol.
So in a way your saying WAR have improved BARRENS CHAT for you chat lovers who use WAR to socialize more and chat whole day :P
WAR = next gen barrens chat OP says:P
And for those who bash WAR becouse its not sandbox is becouse they dont have a clue on what WAR is or know what sandbox vs themepark is there just general trolls whining whenever they can.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Interesting opinion you have there.
What mechanics exactly make it next gen? You give such a broad word, like mechanics, and yet really dont list anything specific about the game mechanics. Gameplay is far from next gen, which would be part of this Mechanics you allude to.
Perhaps you would like to enlighten us on your knowledge of game design and which mechanics you feel that 100% is next gen. I mean, its not like any of the gameplay has been done before right? like even in..say.. daoc. Hmm actually they have been done... way back.
Strange no?
No I wasn't just meaning RvR, my friend. It is the complete package of game mechanics which makes WAR a next generation game in that regard. And it exists of tons of intelligent measure that they took to improve on the mechanics that we have all grown used to, be it in WoW LotrO, AoC and most other mmorpgs.
To name but a few:
- Smart zone design with well placed quest hubs and flight points + quests in the immediate area without the zones feeling unnatural at all.
^This isnt a mechanic. This is an opinion. In this case WoW was also next gen and their xpac will be next gen too. They packaged everything together into one solid form which is highly accessible, just like WAR. Thus you seem to think its also next gen going by the same opinion.
The zones are actually quite old-gen. Its one block on top of another block. A ladder if you will. Basically, 3 rectangles on top of one another. Thats not next gen. Thats direct simplification, which carries its own pros and cons.
The zones were designed to allow racial pairings to clash at certain points during pve. For instance, dwarf/greenskin pairing in tier 1 has a few hotspots where pvp will happen outside of the RVR zones. To some this is linear, to others, and to mythic, I am sure that this is intelligent design. Focus players towards conflict. But as you said, there are pros and cons in any decision and this choice in design is neither good nor bad. It fits a design goals.
- The seamless implementation of PQ and RvR areas in every zone which make the zones more interesting and alive in my opinion. The whole world is FULL of things for you and your guildies to raid, claim, siege or defend. Tier 4, when most have reached level 40 will be one hell of a battlefield where guilds who organize there own events and have good tactics going will have the chance to shine.
^In game events are not a new thing. In fact, they have been around for a long time. Mythic put in a basic system into play that has already existed in other forms. Each PQ and RVR is based of variables, if those variables, aka conditions are met, then A happens, if not B happens and its over. Kill X zombies. Spawn X super zombies. Kill X super zombies. Spawn X Hero Zombie. Timer hits 0. If Time = 0, then X PQ reset timer begins.
These are merely PvE scripting. Honestly, WoW has done this in their raid dungeons. While they do not involve PvP, they do use very similar scripted PvE commands. There is no AI going on here. You are simply performing a group "wow like raid dungeon" in which depending on the server you pick, can have enemy players come in and attack you.
One could go so far as to say even the next, next, next gen game are all just a bunch of variables. When we break dicussions down into variables as you do here, it's no longer worth discussing as you're ending the conversation on an artificial note. All games from now to the future are just scripts and variables and true AI will not be coming to consumer gaming for the forseeable future.
Further more, the blend of pve and pvp is not next gen. Im not saying its bad. I love it. Its the way games should be, but this mechanic is just as dated. What mythic did was make it easy, clearly defined, funneled into one place and kept organized within the box they give you to play in.
Thats a good thing. Not next gen. Its that, if it aint broke, dont fix it, mentality.
Everything you explained up there is being done, and has been done, in other games. Heck even Shadow Bane to some extent.
I completely disagree with you on this. As with the previous paragraph, you've ended the discussion on a whim. Your reasoning labels any and all contributions to the genre as "nothing new". Sure most things are nothing new. However, you're still taking the bits apart and not looking at the package as a whole. As a whole, WAR is making people relook at the traditional concepts of what an MMO is or can be or can do.
You may not agree with it but disagreement shouldn't blind one to the contributions made when they ARE made. WAR brings several features and concept over that many from now onwards will adopt.
Is WAR revolutionary? No. It is evolutionary. But with it, it brings many new ideas to the table. I will at least give that to them rather than deny it by simply waving my hand and dismissing it as being done before--which isn't entirely true.
- Having the choice to level either by pvp, by PQ's or in the tier of your choice in your level range without forcing us to perform the 'traveling time sink' which we saw in many other games. -> makes the game ooze freedom instead of feeling linaer which many people tend to think when they read about tiers and stuff.
^while many players have always wanted their level xp to be counted in PvP, instead of separated by PvP xp and PvE xp, its not next gen. Its convenient, its what players want, but thats not a next gen feature. Its basically saying, heres your cake, and you can eat it too.
OK you're stretching now. It doesn't matter if people wanted pvp/pve cohesion. The fact that WAR manages it well and without strongly alienating people is a true innovation. Name me one MMORPG that has efffectively done this? Again you are waving your hand and dismissing a difficult and often failed feat. "pfft whatever" is what you are saying.
I will give this to WAR that they did right.
On that note, you say that that features oozes freedom. Im sorry, but WAR is very linear. You really dont have that many things you can do, you just level, and the only way to equip certain gear is to have renown points, which is the same thing as WoW's pvp xp currency or other games pvp xp.
I spent a great deal of time exploring in WAR and got quite well rewarded for my efforts. Linear progression is inherent in a quest based system. What they provide outside that realm of progression is very important and completely up to the individual to find and play with. If you haven't started using yout TOK yet, then yes, the game is linear. Superficially it is linear. Actual gameplay wise, it's got a great many things to do if a player puts some effort into it rather than have the game decide what you should do for you--questing already does that. The TOK is open ended in many ways.
Mythic combined xp to happen in both pvp and pve, its not new, but its what we like, they still however kept in the pvp only xp which is still required to have certain abilities and equipment. RR is the time sink as seen in many a game.
No. RR is character progression. It;'s what you can do with the realm rank that is different. You get realm points that you can spend to customize YOUR toon the way you want it to and in fact is much more customizable than the linear nature of the pve level growth.
Gear equipping is only one effect of gaining rank. In WoW, your points do nothing but act as currency to buy gear. it is a very closed and narrow form of character progression. In WAR's system, it is the complete package for progression. This is something DAOC did right and this is something that carried over from wAR.
If you mean it's not innovative because Mythic already did it then you are right. However, I have yet to see a similar system presented to the current market.
Again, I will give credit where credit is due. If I had to credit mythic for anything, it is that they give you a very complete package for character development even after max level. Many games simply fail horribly at this.
- Apart from the first stages of PQ's there is not much grinding involved in WAR, and certainly not in mats for professions like the hours and hours I spend grinding thorium in WoW.
^Theres grinding, only its fun. Further more, for crafting you really do have to grind and grind to get the mats you need, because not everything is available to you that you really need. Crafting needs some work, but it really comes down to making talismens for equipment or potions. You still need to get your crafting rank high enough to make things you want.
- Lack of timesinks make the game more diverse. In WoW or Lotro I could spend a whole night working on one instance; getting the group together, getting there, wiping a few times and finishing up and the night was over. In the same night in WAR you have been doing multiple things; tonight I have done a few PQ's (won blue shoulders, yay!), been RvR'ing and did some Scenario's. Alltogether a load of varied fun
-Guild rank, city ranks, Renown ranks, Tome unlocks. These are time sinks. They will take you a long time to complete. Thankfully, some of it is a group project, and the other are fun. They are still time sinks, but you will maybe enjoy the process.
Every game is a time sink. Again you are dismissing and waving your hand effectively ending conversation. WAR manages to manage the time sink well. Even WoW can't manage that properly. It isn't about masking timesink. It is about managing it to make it enjoyable-so that effort feels like it equals reward. In most cases, WAR provides that in almost all its features. In this way, it is complete as an experience.
- Renown Points, leveling your renown rank and unlocking special abilities is awesome. It adds another layer to making progress. You have to keep track of two bars instead of one in WAR. (You also see the renown you earn by healing your mates in rvr or pvp).
^renown points, aka pvp xp. It exists in many games, including WoW's pvp xpcurrency. Dont be fooled by another name. Its pvp xp/pvp lvls needed to get and use loot and tactics. Been done, kinda old. Different name, same function.
I replied a couple para above about the realm points system. You're being dissmissive again and essentially are saying, what's the difference between a combustion vehicle and a steam driven vehicle..it's all locomotion but in different name and form. It is and it isn't.
- Doing away with money sinks: bag space scaling with you without the need to buy any and a default bank of 80 slots. I have yet to see what people will be spending their gold on at later levels but I am sure that gold sellers wont find many customers in the first 30 or so levels of WAR.
^It has money sinks. The economy, if you want that purple gear its gonna cost you. Some tier 3 gear seems to be appearing for around 30-40gold already. Rank 1 mounts going for 1g. Renown gear going up in price as you level up as well. Eventually Mythic will add more features in which to fluxuate their economy via spending of that pent up gold.
I have earned over 100g in WAR already and I still find ways to spend much of it.
Currently this is manageable as the economy hsan't really started yet. I won't get into this as of right now, it's kind of pointless to discuss.
- A very worked out guild system with its own levels, and mechanics; working your ass off for your for your guild now has real benefits that will set you apart from others.
^Guild levels and ranks have existed in other games. The act of Mythic making it simple and fun is not next gen. Its just nice and clean for us with guilds. Btw, what you describe is a time sink. There are many in war, just hidden with different names in different locations.
Again, masking timesinks and managing the timesink is a fine line between absolute good and absolute evil. WAR tows the line very well. Other games mask it or outright don't bother to hide it (WoW).
And I am forgetting tons of things now.
Bottom lines; Mythic really did their best to do away with most annoyances of players in existing mmo's and focussed completely on trying to raise the percentage of people's game time on doing the actual fun and interesting stuff by making more of that and making it easier available out in the open world. And that is for me the way in how they made a next generation mmo. It might not look so very special or different at a first glance, but the game grows on you tremendously at later levels. ^_^
FANMAN out.
Bottom Line: WAR is fun, well packaged and simply accessable. Some of us love it. Its still not next gen...at all. I dont care if it is or isnt, but generally speaking, I like to take it as it is, not something I pretend it to be. I'm not attacking you personally, however the next gen tag is a no go, that all.
I would agree that the bottom line is, WAR is fun and brings more of the same. however, it does some things new and expands some things so well and packages it so completely that many other games will follow suite. I will give them that credit and I think it is fair to give it to them rather than dismissing it away.
It also manages the time sink rather than masks it. People's time and effort are rewarded in managebale intervals and this makes it satisfying rather than a snore fest. Good for them and good for the industry that they are pushing that kind of boundary. Good for players as well.
Interesting opinion you have there.
What mechanics exactly make it next gen? You give such a broad word, like mechanics, and yet really dont list anything specific about the game mechanics. Gameplay is far from next gen, which would be part of this Mechanics you allude to.
Perhaps you would like to enlighten us on your knowledge of game design and which mechanics you feel that 100% is next gen. I mean, its not like any of the gameplay has been done before right? like even in..say.. daoc. Hmm actually they have been done... way back.
Strange no?
No I wasn't just meaning RvR, my friend. It is the complete package of game mechanics which makes WAR a next generation game in that regard. And it exists of tons of intelligent measure that they took to improve on the mechanics that we have all grown used to, be it in WoW LotrO, AoC and most other mmorpgs.
To name but a few:
- Smart zone design with well placed quest hubs and flight points + quests in the immediate area without the zones feeling unnatural at all.
^This isnt a mechanic. This is an opinion. In this case WoW was also next gen and their xpac will be next gen too. They packaged everything together into one solid form which is highly accessible, just like WAR. Thus you seem to think its also next gen going by the same opinion.
The zones are actually quite old-gen. Its one block on top of another block. A ladder if you will. Basically, 3 rectangles on top of one another. Thats not next gen. Thats direct simplification, which carries its own pros and cons.
The zones were designed to allow racial pairings to clash at certain points during pve. For instance, dwarf/greenskin pairing in tier 1 has a few hotspots where pvp will happen outside of the RVR zones. To some this is linear, to others, and to mythic, I am sure that this is intelligent design. Focus players towards conflict. But as you said, there are pros and cons in any decision and this choice in design is neither good nor bad. It fits a design goals.
- The seamless implementation of PQ and RvR areas in every zone which make the zones more interesting and alive in my opinion. The whole world is FULL of things for you and your guildies to raid, claim, siege or defend. Tier 4, when most have reached level 40 will be one hell of a battlefield where guilds who organize there own events and have good tactics going will have the chance to shine.
^In game events are not a new thing. In fact, they have been around for a long time. Mythic put in a basic system into play that has already existed in other forms. Each PQ and RVR is based of variables, if those variables, aka conditions are met, then A happens, if not B happens and its over. Kill X zombies. Spawn X super zombies. Kill X super zombies. Spawn X Hero Zombie. Timer hits 0. If Time = 0, then X PQ reset timer begins.
These are merely PvE scripting. Honestly, WoW has done this in their raid dungeons. While they do not involve PvP, they do use very similar scripted PvE commands. There is no AI going on here. You are simply performing a group "wow like raid dungeon" in which depending on the server you pick, can have enemy players come in and attack you.
One could go so far as to say even the next, next, next gen game are all just a bunch of variables. When we break dicussions down into variables as you do here, it's no longer worth discussing as you're ending the conversation on an artificial note. All games from now to the future are just scripts and variables and true AI will not be coming to consumer gaming for the forseeable future.
Further more, the blend of pve and pvp is not next gen. Im not saying its bad. I love it. Its the way games should be, but this mechanic is just as dated. What mythic did was make it easy, clearly defined, funneled into one place and kept organized within the box they give you to play in.
Thats a good thing. Not next gen. Its that, if it aint broke, dont fix it, mentality.
Everything you explained up there is being done, and has been done, in other games. Heck even Shadow Bane to some extent.
I completely disagree with you on this. As with the previous paragraph, you've ended the discussion on a whim. Your reasoning labels any and all contributions to the genre as "nothing new". Sure most things are nothing new. However, you're still taking the bits apart and not looking at the package as a whole. As a whole, WAR is making people relook at the traditional concepts of what an MMO is or can be or can do.
You may not agree with it but disagreement shouldn't blind one to the contributions made when they ARE made. WAR brings several features and concept over that many from now onwards will adopt.
Is WAR revolutionary? No. It is evolutionary. But with it, it brings many new ideas to the table. I will at least give that to them rather than deny it by simply waving my hand and dismissing it as being done before--which isn't entirely true.
- Having the choice to level either by pvp, by PQ's or in the tier of your choice in your level range without forcing us to perform the 'traveling time sink' which we saw in many other games. -> makes the game ooze freedom instead of feeling linaer which many people tend to think when they read about tiers and stuff.
^while many players have always wanted their level xp to be counted in PvP, instead of separated by PvP xp and PvE xp, its not next gen. Its convenient, its what players want, but thats not a next gen feature. Its basically saying, heres your cake, and you can eat it too.
OK you're stretching now. It doesn't matter if people wanted pvp/pve cohesion. The fact that WAR manages it well and without strongly alienating people is a true innovation. Name me one MMORPG that has efffectively done this? Again you are waving your hand and dismissing a difficult and often failed feat. "pfft whatever" is what you are saying.
I will give this to WAR that they did right.
On that note, you say that that features oozes freedom. Im sorry, but WAR is very linear. You really dont have that many things you can do, you just level, and the only way to equip certain gear is to have renown points, which is the same thing as WoW's pvp xp currency or other games pvp xp.
I spent a great deal of time exploring in WAR and got quite well rewarded for my efforts. Linear progression is inherent in a quest based system. What they provide outside that realm of progression is very important and completely up to the individual to find and play with. If you haven't started using yout TOK yet, then yes, the game is linear. Superficially it is linear. Actual gameplay wise, it's got a great many things to do if a player puts some effort into it rather than have the game decide what you should do for you--questing already does that. The TOK is open ended in many ways.
Mythic combined xp to happen in both pvp and pve, its not new, but its what we like, they still however kept in the pvp only xp which is still required to have certain abilities and equipment. RR is the time sink as seen in many a game.
No. RR is character progression. It;'s what you can do with the realm rank that is different. You get realm points that you can spend to customize YOUR toon the way you want it to and in fact is much more customizable than the linear nature of the pve level growth.
Gear equipping is only one effect of gaining rank. In WoW, your points do nothing but act as currency to buy gear. it is a very closed and narrow form of character progression. In WAR's system, it is the complete package for progression. This is something DAOC did right and this is something that carried over from wAR.
If you mean it's not innovative because Mythic already did it then you are right. However, I have yet to see a similar system presented to the current market.
Again, I will give credit where credit is due. If I had to credit mythic for anything, it is that they give you a very complete package for character development even after max level. Many games simply fail horribly at this.
- Apart from the first stages of PQ's there is not much grinding involved in WAR, and certainly not in mats for professions like the hours and hours I spend grinding thorium in WoW.
^Theres grinding, only its fun. Further more, for crafting you really do have to grind and grind to get the mats you need, because not everything is available to you that you really need. Crafting needs some work, but it really comes down to making talismens for equipment or potions. You still need to get your crafting rank high enough to make things you want.
- Lack of timesinks make the game more diverse. In WoW or Lotro I could spend a whole night working on one instance; getting the group together, getting there, wiping a few times and finishing up and the night was over. In the same night in WAR you have been doing multiple things; tonight I have done a few PQ's (won blue shoulders, yay!), been RvR'ing and did some Scenario's. Alltogether a load of varied fun
-Guild rank, city ranks, Renown ranks, Tome unlocks. These are time sinks. They will take you a long time to complete. Thankfully, some of it is a group project, and the other are fun. They are still time sinks, but you will maybe enjoy the process.
Every game is a time sink. Again you are dismissing and waving your hand effectively ending conversation. WAR manages to manage the time sink well. Even WoW can't manage that properly. It isn't about masking timesink. It is about managing it to make it enjoyable-so that effort feels like it equals reward. In most cases, WAR provides that in almost all its features. In this way, it is complete as an experience.
- Renown Points, leveling your renown rank and unlocking special abilities is awesome. It adds another layer to making progress. You have to keep track of two bars instead of one in WAR. (You also see the renown you earn by healing your mates in rvr or pvp).
^renown points, aka pvp xp. It exists in many games, including WoW's pvp xpcurrency. Dont be fooled by another name. Its pvp xp/pvp lvls needed to get and use loot and tactics. Been done, kinda old. Different name, same function.
I replied a couple para above about the realm points system. You're being dissmissive again and essentially are saying, what's the difference between a combustion vehicle and a steam driven vehicle..it's all locomotion but in different name and form. It is and it isn't.
- Doing away with money sinks: bag space scaling with you without the need to buy any and a default bank of 80 slots. I have yet to see what people will be spending their gold on at later levels but I am sure that gold sellers wont find many customers in the first 30 or so levels of WAR.
^It has money sinks. The economy, if you want that purple gear its gonna cost you. Some tier 3 gear seems to be appearing for around 30-40gold already. Rank 1 mounts going for 1g. Renown gear going up in price as you level up as well. Eventually Mythic will add more features in which to fluxuate their economy via spending of that pent up gold.
I have earned over 100g in WAR already and I still find ways to spend much of it.
Currently this is manageable as the economy hsan't really started yet. I won't get into this as of right now, it's kind of pointless to discuss.
- A very worked out guild system with its own levels, and mechanics; working your ass off for your for your guild now has real benefits that will set you apart from others.
^Guild levels and ranks have existed in other games. The act of Mythic making it simple and fun is not next gen. Its just nice and clean for us with guilds. Btw, what you describe is a time sink. There are many in war, just hidden with different names in different locations.
Again, masking timesinks and managing the timesink is a fine line between absolute good and absolute evil. WAR tows the line very well. Other games mask it or outright don't bother to hide it (WoW).
And I am forgetting tons of things now.
Bottom lines; Mythic really did their best to do away with most annoyances of players in existing mmo's and focussed completely on trying to raise the percentage of people's game time on doing the actual fun and interesting stuff by making more of that and making it easier available out in the open world. And that is for me the way in how they made a next generation mmo. It might not look so very special or different at a first glance, but the game grows on you tremendously at later levels. ^_^
FANMAN out.
Bottom Line: WAR is fun, well packaged and simply accessable. Some of us love it. Its still not next gen...at all. I dont care if it is or isnt, but generally speaking, I like to take it as it is, not something I pretend it to be. I'm not attacking you personally, however the next gen tag is a no go, that all.
I would agree that the bottom line is, WAR is fun and brings more of the same. however, it does some things new and expands some things so well and packages it so completely that many other games will follow suite. I will give them that credit and I think it is fair to give it to them rather than dismissing it away.
It also manages the time sink rather than masks it. People's time and effort are rewarded in managebale intervals and this makes it satisfying rather than a snore fest. Good for them and good for the industry that they are pushing that kind of boundary. Good for players as well.
I fully agree with you. And hats of for taking the time to reply on that one. It all boils down to formulating the many improvements WAR brought us in the overall experience of game mechanics I guess;
Some might opt for evolutionary and others might say next generation. Over the whole line it is more an evolution than next generation if you consider things like graphics and combat mechanics which hardly bring anything new. But we were specifically talking about how the game mechanics are designed and in that regard the game is next-gen to me and many others I suppose.
Dislodging every single bit into 'I have seen this before' calls like Rabenwolf does and failing to see the bigger picture of what all these improvements bring as a whole is like spotting trees but failing to realize that you are in a forest.
A damn entertaining forest at that.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I fixed it for you.
Next-Gen: a term invented by public relations people to create massive hype of the next thing to the consumer
Example: [insert product name] is Next-Gen, it will litterally blow you away