Player VS player balance poll

starman999 · October 2004

I was having this discussion in the EQ2 forum earlier and it occurred to me that I would like to know everyones opinion on this topic. I believe that there is no reason to balance out the PVP aspects of an MMORPG. The only concern the devs should have is balancing PVE. All the classes will have strengths and weaknesses and that is how it should be. There is no reason to balance the classes versus each other.

Remember this is not about whether you like PVP or not. Its only about whether or not they need to do specific balancing just for PVP.

ROLEPLAYERS UNITE!!!!!

Finwe · October 2004

As I see it, there should be an equilibrium. Such as how in the original horizons they proposed to keep dragons balanced is they would be hunted all their life by hatred and their organs/scales, take alot longer to grow up, and not be able to wear cool loot among other things. But in the end if they could take all this punishment, they'd be the most powerful character in the game.

Thats the type of equality I like to see.

This whole BS of make every race & class equal in power, well, its sort of like, whats the point, wheres the diversity?

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

Dienekes · October 2004

Quite simply...every class needs their strengths and weakness. This adds usefulness to each race/class. It also makes PvP more interesting.

"Feel free to hate me, but hate me for the right reasons."

"Your still ignorant if you believe the first thing you see when the blindfold is removed."

"Be smart enough to know I'm smarter than you."

p00ka · October 2004

Your poll underscores the inherent problem with PvP in a PvE game: You cannot effectively balance classes in the PvE environment, using PvP as a means to measure the effectiveness of said classes.

If you evaluate the effectiveness of the classes in an MMORPG in a PvP context, it immediately becomes evident who are the most powerful: Healer vs. Melee always has the same outcome. Range Melee vs Point Blank Melee has the same. Most games resort to a fancy rock-paper-scissors system to decide what PvE elements are effective in any given encounter. But in the PvP game, it's all about one thing: Which player incapacitates their opponent first. Classes that cannot compete on even ground with their opponent get the shaft. In PvE, this isn't a problem - a healer has a role in the PvE game that simply does not exist in PvP.

Players in EVERY game that allows PvP have bitched and whined about class balance so damn much that what was once the most enjoyable classes in these games are now nerfed beyond belief: EQ's Necromancer and Monk, SWG's Creature Handler and Bounty Hunter, the list goes on and on and on and on. The investment players put into their characters creates very strong feelings when it comes to nerfing, and these companies can easily offend a large portions of their client base with a single swing of the nerf bat.

For PvE games I say: Screw PvP until the game is perfectly balanced for PvE. Then, ONLY further balance PvP damage, defense, etc independantly of PvE - DO NOT let it interfere with the PvE game whatsoever. If it does, PvP will exist at the expense of PvE - which is where most players spend the majority of their time.

-pooka

Rammur · October 2004

Classes armt meant to be equal thats the main reason they have classes.And pvp in most games isnt dependen on the class all depends on the player and how much skill the player himself has.

Otto_Manic · October 2004

Heh, or how uber of a mold/strat he found on the internet.

Rammur · October 2004

Of course PvP in a game to me and i pvp in everyone i can even though pay money i pay for enjoyment and its still a game too many so if they wanna whine and cry about balance then they need lives.

p00ka · October 2004

Originally posted by Rammur
Classes armt meant to be equal thats the main reason they have classes.And pvp in most games isnt dependen on the class all depends on the player and how much skill the player himself has.

Well, they are and they aren't. They are supposed to be equally effective in that each has strengths and weaknesses. The primary strength of a healer is their heals. Warriors have defense. Rogue types have offense. Nukers get offensive spells. And so on. The primary ability of a given class is what defines their role in the game - and they do it better than any other class.

All PvP does is give players a way to compare DPS and Defense vs each other. And since this doesn't fit into the class roles of every class, it makes some classes appear to be weaker than others. Players bitch about it, which leads to the strongest being nerfed - even if they are working as intended for the PvE game. It has happened this way in virtually every MMORPG out there that supports PvP and dueling.

-pooka

p00ka · October 2004

Originally posted by Rammur
Of course PvP in a game to me and i pvp in everyone i can even though pay money i pay for enjoyment and its still a game too many so if they wanna whine and cry about balance then they need lives.

So you are saying what, it's not important to balance the classes? It's not worth complaining about an obvious flaw in a game?

It affects the developer's bottom line - if the player feels there is an issue deserves attention, and it never gets fixed, people quit. So they really need to get it right, or they will suffer shorter retention rates for their subscribers.

-pooka

TaskyZZ · October 2004

Each class does not have to be balanced against all other classes, as long as...

One class isn't the most powerful. In other words, one class can't whip all of the others. If this is teh case, everybody will be the dominating class.

So, to be balanced, the classes do not have to all be balanced against each other. But, each class should have classes it is stronger against and classes it is weaker against. Then you have balance in a PvP game.

Class A is better than B & C, equal to D & E & G, and weaker than F

Class B better than C & D, equal to E and F, weaker than A & G

Is A better, since it has fewer classes better than it? Maybe, maybe not. People see this, they make Class A characters. Soon the world has a greater number of Class A charaters. What do you do? Make a Class F characfter, ot course. Soon, there will be more F's to counter the A's... etc...

It all should work itself out in the end.

Finwe · October 2004

Originally posted by p00ka

Players in EVERY game that allows PvP have bitched and whined about class balance so damn much that what was once the most enjoyable classes in these games are now nerfed beyond belief: EQ's Necromancer and Monk, SWG's Creature Handler and Bounty Hunter, the list goes on and on and on and on. The investment players put into their characters creates very strong feelings when it comes to nerfing, and these companies can easily offend a large portions of their client base with a single swing of the nerf bat.

Except even at times the gimping is not needed. Example, as you said Creature handlers in SWG were gimped.

I was a TKM, CHM, (Teras-Kasi Master, and a Creature Handler master, as long with a couple of medical points. I was as powerful as you could be then, or at least as powerful as your class let you).

I knew gimped feel well. Teras-kasi were suppose to be melee masters, and I couldn't beat a pistoleer in close combat because he'd just pistol whip me to death. Wow, fun, great, thats fair, a close armed combat expert can't kill a ranged expert at two feet away, makes alot of sense right?

I almost always died at the hands of a Pistoleer with Bounty Hunter sub-class. I don't think I ever won against them. And I had like two-three of those little cats which at the time were the best pets in the game for damage, with rancors i'd say coming in second which could effectively tank AT-ST's.

Anyhow, point being, Creature Handlers really were not that great. They were a fun class because of the backup allowed, but just get a pistoleer with pistol whip and he could take em all out. I haven't played the game in a year. But it seems they finally fixed most of the problems. But then in the end created alot more.

Which is usually the problem, balance something out, and it gimps something else.

Personally I either think that the AC version is the best solution, or old school horizons.

AC being no classes, all skills, so you can have a mix of a myriad of allowed skills and mix em together to try to get the best results, with no doubt gimping a few at first. But in the end having a superb character that even though seemingly perfect can be whooped if somone used a almost anti character to it.

Then there is horizons, which is time/difficulty/hardship based. The better the race/class, the harder it is. A ancient mage will be able to destroy many ancient warriors, but for an ancient mage to even get there, it would take not only more time, but in the process have alot more frustration and hardships attached.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

Sufinsil · October 2004

I dont see how you balance classes for PvE.... what make it so every can kill at about the same rate?

EQ never been PvP focus, though i found PvP EQ (on Vallon) to be the most fun for the game. Too bad EQ2 wont have any PvP focus.

One reason i go to WoW. Unless i get tagged on AO or EvE.

Rammur · October 2004

Ive taken lowest so called balanced characters in game that suppose to suck and pvp the so call elite classes and won alot of battle sure it difficult may not get alll the wins.But all you gotta do is find strategys and use it.The problem is the players not the classes.You get some people who plain suck and whine about they cant win or you get a fight that takes too long and they cry because they dint kill you in 1-4 hits.Of course it does depend on the games too.Like me i play the realms i can take a wizzy and battle it out may not get many kills but i do survive the fights.I consider classes more of a difficult setting.Noone forces you to pick a class some classes are just meant for specific thing they arnt meant for everything. Of course when i play games i look for a roleplayin community who know how to pvp im sick in tired of these so called cyber thugs who come in run around with this l337 or pwed owned talk it ruins the games all together i find most pvp orientated games to have nothin but a bunch of smack talkin 13 year olds in it.Ive been playing online games since like 93 back when they was nothing but text based games and ive never seen so many rowdy talkin children in my life as i do these days.That the main problem with pvp these days the companys try to make a game that caters to all types of custermors and when they make it pvp orientated it kinda scares the 70% who are mature and good payin custermors away and thats not good for buisness.

alerum · October 2004

Originally posted by p00ka

. In PvE, this isn't a problem - a healer has a role in the PvE game that simply does not exist in PvP.

This isnt completely true. In DaoC I played a dwarf healer pac/mend on midguard and my job was the same in pvp as pve crowdcontrol and healing. But in daoc the pvp system is pretty good for the most part you did it in a group more than solo.

This cold dark and tormented hell is all i'll ever know so when you get to heaven may the devil be your judge.

~Flogging Molly~

Finwe · October 2004

Well. For one, you'll actually find that the "immature 13 year old smack talkers". Are usually not 13, and only do that crap to get a rise out of people that are uptight enough to be agitated by it.

Secondly, if you think that only PvP games attract the demographic of agitators. Try a nice dose of EQ, or the up and coming WoW or EQ2.

Third, if "mature" is code-name for people that lack the ability use the ignore feature, well, then frankly they shouldn't be playing MMORPG's to begin with.

Leet speaking, griefing. It's going to be there. No matter what style of game, and no matter what style of rules.

But so will not buying the game and the ignore feature. Personally I worry about people that get so worked up about others over the internet acting immature, or agitative. Or slaughters them in a PvP oriented game.

For if they get so agitated about such simple things in a entertainment oriented program which can be overcome. I dare not think how they handle serious real life situations that aren't so miniscule.

"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

Dienekes · October 2004

p00ka: It isn't a flaw if the class your playing isn't as strong as others. If your playing one type of a character class that has a certain role it is to play and it can't be used well outside the role that isn't a flaw. In PvP just as in PvE every class has their roles...that is where the balance should be made. Not in the classes themselves but in the adjustment of their roles. The only flaw would come in if there was one class that could solo every other class and character without any trouble.

I'll give an example. In DAoC when I used to play my bonedancer my role in the group was often to ferrit out stealthers, keep the odd melee away from the support chars, and sometimes even act as a second string tank. If you pulled me out of these roles and tried to make me a primary tank, a primary nuker, or a support character it wouldn't work. I also had my weaknesses...mainly stuns. Once a melee stunned me I was dead pretty much 100% of the time. There were RvR skills that came into play too but these are mainly based on the player's skills.

"Feel free to hate me, but hate me for the right reasons."

"Your still ignorant if you believe the first thing you see when the blindfold is removed."

"Be smart enough to know I'm smarter than you."

CactusmanX · October 2004

I see no need to balance anything, PvP doesn't have to be fair, but then again whos to say a healer can't be a great fighter, so it should be up to the player not class, what "Role" they play in combat, and if done correctly no matter what class you should be able to take mutiple "roles"

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