Ok it's starting to look like you don't know what a RPG is. A Role playing Game is a game that allows you to take on the roll of another. Thats it, no more to it. You play as someone else. "Role-playing game, a game in which players assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create narratives " All the time Im saying that in a rpg you play the role of a character and not yourself... what you said just confirmed my point. I expressed my opinion that a fps like Competitive Sandbox is NOT more similar to D&D than cooperative/storyline games.
DarkFall is an RPG and I am sorry if you don't see that but it is. I didnt say Darkfall is not a RPG, I said that pure sandbox is not a pure RPG. What I said and I will say it again is, Darkfall is not MORE rpg than all the others MMORPGS. D&D was awsome in it's day and is one of the Fore Fathers of RPG's. Sandbox MMORPG's are an evolution of those original idea's. So you agree with me, the OP said Darkfall is D&D like and it is not. DarkFall is in fact a Sandbox and an RPG. What it sounds like you want is a Single player linear RPG which is fine. MMORPG's are a bit more advanced than old school pen and paper RPG's but the original essence is still there which is to take on the role of another. Im not talking about what I want, you can get the RPG feeling in single player games, sandbox games, MMORPGs etc What I said and you just dont have an argumment against is Darkfall is not exacly similar to pure D&D and sandbox is not equal RPG... it can be mixed, but it is not the primal definition of a RPG game.
The thing is your trying to seperate the RPG from the game and you can't. Yes it is a sandbox but first and foremost it is an RPG. It is the primal definition of an RPG game it just has more tools and freedom.
As far as it not being similar to D&D which part are you talking about? If your reffering to the RPG part? Yes it is. You still take on the role of another. Mechanic wise? Mostly no.
The main difference is instead of sitting around telling the story you are actual living the story.
The thing is your trying to seperate the RPG from the game and you can't. Yes it is a sandbox but first and foremost it is an RPG. It is the primal definition of an RPG game it just has more tools and freedom. As far as it not being similar to D&D which part are you talking about? If your reffering to the RPG part? Yes it is. You still take on the role of another. Mechanic wise? Mostly no.
What I said about primal definition is not about Darkfall, but about sandboxes.
It seems some people belive that the primal definition of RPG is freedom and sandbox like experience, what is not.
About D&D is about the mechanics, system and how the mix between mechanics and the role you play works.
Im not trying to separate or say that Darkfall is or is not a RPG.
See, most of MMORPGS have some RPG elements, the role, mechanics, lore, Darkfall has some elements, it is just not MORE of an RPG than EQ2, War, Vanguard... it is just more of a sandbox...this can be good or bad in some ocasions.
The thing is your trying to seperate the RPG from the game and you can't. Yes it is a sandbox but first and foremost it is an RPG. It is the primal definition of an RPG game it just has more tools and freedom. As far as it not being similar to D&D which part are you talking about? If your reffering to the RPG part? Yes it is. You still take on the role of another. Mechanic wise? Mostly no.
What I said about primal definition is not about Darkfall, but about sandboxes.
It seems some people belive that the primal definition of RPG is freedom and sandbox like experience, what is not.
About D&D is about the mechanics, system and how the mix between mechanics and the role you play works.
Im not trying to separate or say that Darkfall is or is not a RPG.
See, most of MMORPGS have some RPG elements, the role, mechanics, lore, Darkfall has some elements, it is just not MORE of an RPG than EQ2, War, Vanguard... it is just more of a sandbox...this can be good or bad in some ocasions.
...anyway, as I said, we will see at the release.
...
DarkFall has all the elements. Here they are again since you seemed to miss it the first time.
"Role-playing game, a game in which players assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create narratives"
Wether people RP or not is the only thing debatable because it is in fact a RPG game. It doesn't have some of the elements, it is undisputable so a RPG game. Each RPG is different but they are RPG's. With what your saying I have to say you don't know what makes an RPG which is fine. I have informed you what makes an RPG so I hope this has helped. We can wait till the game comes out but that doesn't change that it is an RPG lol. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
The thing is your trying to seperate the RPG from the game and you can't. Yes it is a sandbox but first and foremost it is an RPG. It is the primal definition of an RPG game it just has more tools and freedom. As far as it not being similar to D&D which part are you talking about? If your reffering to the RPG part? Yes it is. You still take on the role of another. Mechanic wise? Mostly no.
What I said about primal definition is not about Darkfall, but about sandboxes.
It seems some people belive that the primal definition of RPG is freedom and sandbox like experience, what is not.
About D&D is about the mechanics, system and how the mix between mechanics and the role you play works.
Im not trying to separate or say that Darkfall is or is not a RPG.
See, most of MMORPGS have some RPG elements, the role, mechanics, lore, Darkfall has some elements, it is just not MORE of an RPG than EQ2, War, Vanguard... it is just more of a sandbox...this can be good or bad in some ocasions.
...anyway, as I said, we will see at the release.
...
DarkFall has all the elements. Here they are again since you seemed to miss it the first time.
"Role-playing game, a game in which players assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create narratives"
Wether people RP or not is the only thing debatable because it is in fact a RPG game. It doesn't have some of the elements, it is undisputable so a RPG game. Each RPG is different but they are RPG's. With what your saying I have to say you don't know what makes an RPG which is fine. I have informed you what makes an RPG so I hope this has helped. We can wait till the game comes out but that doesn't change that it is an RPG lol. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
1-You started to act with arrogance, you didnt inform me anything, you said RP is related to play in the role of a character, I already said that a couple of times before your reply.
2-It seems to be hard for you to understand, I never said Darkfall is not a rpg game, your "lol" is childish and misplaced.
3-The affirmation that Darkfall is the closest MMORPG to the classic "D&D" experience is wrong.
This subject started to be repetitive and with the fact you are trying to distorce and misinterpret what I said, doesnt help.
Your words "D&D were not like electronic Sandbox MMORPG's because they are in fact very linear."
But now you just want to pick a fight, you created the fact that I said Darkfall is not an RPG and started to belive that you said to me what is roleplaying when I already said that a couple of times here before you...see? This is going nowhere.
Just to help you with your misconceptions, when someone say "Sandbox is not equal to roleplaying game" it DOESNT mean "Darkfall is not a RPG" or you cant have RP moments in a sandbox... capiche?
Forgod sake Umbral, the premise is so easily understood, im starting to think you are literally just trolling the point you picked out from my post is such a minor one anyway and its just a theoretical example im not complelly comparing the two games because ofcourse there are major differences from a p&p rpg to an electronic mmorpg. All im saying is just that in THEORY d&d is the best type of roleplaying game there can be as it can in THEORY be completelly free with no restrictions whatsoever so you are free to roleplay your character (if your playing it sort of sandboxy style like alot of people did). Well comparing it to DF, yes, ofcourse DF is a predefined world with predefined lore but you would use some predefined lore in d&d like creatures for example anyway.
You are still ROLEPLAYING within the set lore, the fact is darkfall is one of the least restricted games and has alot of features providing a much better roleplaying experience, a much more free roleplaying experience than a themepark mmorpg, i also know alot of people will play it more like a competative game and not play the game from a "character in a virtual world" perspective and play it from more of a "im going to pwn you int he face you noob" perspective but that will happen in any game as there are people that just simply dont know how to roleplay or dont want to. All sandbox games allow for is a better RPG experience in my opinion because of this freedom in comparison to a themepark mmorpg like WoW. There are many reasons why DF would be a better RPG in the roleplaying sense than a game like WoW is.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
I am probably leaning to the "pwn you in tha face noob" side, because I am in a competitive PvP guild, buuuuut me and my friends love people who roleplay even if we dont do it much ourselves.
It just makes it a much more interesting virtual world to live in.
And to be honest many of us pvp'ers are also rpg fans, have played D&D or at least games like baldurs gate, neverwinter nights, or such.
And those of us who label ourselves mainly as pk's/rpks/peekays are essentially roleplaying "the bad guys". And we create so much drama in the games we play, you wouldnt wanna miss out on that really..
I am probably leaning to the "pwn you in tha face noob" side, because I am in a competitive PvP guild, buuuuut me and my friends love people who roleplay even if we dont do it much ourselves. It just makes it a much more interesting virtual world to live in. And to be honest many of us are rpg fans, have played D&D or at least games like baldurs gate, neverwinter nights, or such.
Yeah, as i said people always play in different ways its just that in an rpg like this where its quite free i like to roleplay to a certain extent because it is alot more enjoyable and the main point, it is WAY more immersive if you are playing from the point of view that your character is real, as if its more like a story.
You can still pvp, be competative and play the game more like an rpg, pretending your character is a real character with reputation to some extent, and when i use the term rpg i mean when your playing you can chat normally in chat and just not use words and do things that would deter it from fictional realism like running around flashing nude and calling everyone noobs. Its just that this is an rpg at heart and its a shame that there are so many people out there that dont play an rpg as an rpg in the slightest.
Its just like the difference between, when watching the lotr films for example, believing it is real (which i think would give you alot more enjoyment and immersion when watching) than just watching it as a human made creation.
I think it would benefit everyone if everyone had some kind of roleplayness when they are playing a game like Darkfall which ofcourse is an RPG, basically just to try and not do anything which would take away the imagination and immersion of a virtual world and its characters. Ofcourse this wont happen though there will always be people who dont.
I am a pvper myself as i love the competitiveness of fighting against real people, but also dont go around killing people and shouting noob in their face because they lost, for example, which just takes away a bit from the rpg experience.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
Umbral I don't quite follow your argument. They are all exposed and clear, maybe you just disagree. When I played rpg's I made characters that would behave exactly how I like to play. I don't mold my playstyle around the character, I make a character that fits my playstyle, In themepark mmorpg you cannot do this because you restricted to the dev's predefined characters, path, lore and ruleset. In a classic RPG you are limited to a lore and a ruleset, you will create your character, but there is the progression/stats boundaries, you dont play a RPG as a player, as a game master and as a rules creator at the same time. In rpg there is a large amount of flex available just like in sandbox, the gm is not creating the story, it is created collaboratively between the gm and the players. This bears more resemblance to sandbox structure than themepark where plot flex is non-existent or very limited. I would never make a character in a rpg game that did not conform to how I like play, it would not be fun for me. So? What is the relation with RPG or with Sandboxes? You should play what is fun for you.
In rpg and skill based sandbox I can design and play my character how I want. In a themepark mmo with levels I cannot do this as the characters are predefined and the abilities are just being unlocked as you level. The progression in Darkfall is more similar to p&p games as well where you assign the stats where you want to build your character up. No, it is not similar in a pratical way, because we all know that progression wont count, Darkfall is based in the player skill like an FPS, this is even more distant than a traditional RPG system, like the one we have in D&D, Vampire, and even Planescape and The Witcher. As I said there is a difference between you as a player and you as a character... Of course progression will count, if I haven't got any healing spells I can't heal, if I haven't learned a particular crafting recipe I can't craft that item. How will progression not count??? In fact you have more progression available because you can learn to do any skill in the game. How can prescripted themepark be more games like rpg games you have very limited freedom, when in rpg your freedom is only limited by your imagination. Themepark mmorpg is more similar to Steve Jackson FIghting Fantasy books - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_fantasy - in that the plot is already written and you just followthe story. No, this is not what Im saying, I never said anything about a predefined story, I used the argumment about a story/adventure, it doesnt matter if it comes from the Devs, from your friend or from your Guild leader, you can find this in any MMORPG and the fact you dont have adventures and stories created by Devs doesnt make it more RPG. No MMORPG is a pure RPG adventure, and Darkfall is note more close to that because it is a sandbox. What make Darkfall a bit less RPG classic like is the focus on competition/politics... Im not sure you will understand that, but a classic RPG will be a pure sandbox only when you are playing as a player, as a gamemaster, as a rules creator at the same time and alone. An eletronic sandbox game is not = to a classic RPG experience.
Darkfall has competition and politics as well as rpg elements that are closer to p&p than themeparks have. Take a look at the first attempts to create a d&d type worlds on a computer, all these attempts were sandboxes because that is the closest possible implementation. Themepark mmo's are a more recent innovation and are further from from pure rpg than sandboxes because of the limited interactivity with the game world.
Keep in mind Im not saying that all the others MMOs are perfect example of RPGs, as I said, would prefer new MMOs with more RPG elements (moral decisions, presonal tales that really make an impact in your character, more place to creativity and lore) and less pure action elements.
Darkfall has more scope for moral decisions, it has a dynamic alignment system which will mean that your actions will have a direct impact on your character and how other elements of the game world interact with you. A lot of mmo's do not trust the player base enough to allow morality to be a part of the game.
Sandboxes allow a much greater scope to create your own personal tales due to the freedom available. Your efforts to create your own personal tale are hampered in themeparks as your character development and the game plot is already there before you even start playing.
I get the sense from your posts that you think Darkfall is going to be Call of Duty in a persistent fantasy world, there is MUCH more to it than that, have another look at what the game is bringing to the table.
I still think most here don't get the difference between classical P6P RPGs and todays MMORPGs, Sandbox or not:
There bascially is not a single MMORPG, including DF, that supports one of the central, main ideas of the typical RPGs, no matter what ruleset: They are encouraging and, most of all, gving you benefit and progression through roleplaying.
To characterize MMOs as an evolution of P6P RPGs is as much a far fetch as a very bsic misconception. They're an attempt to translate the basic idea of playing together with a high degree of freedom, based on nothing more but a common ruleset and the decisions of a GM as well as the underlying principle of social interaction as THE core component of the game into an electronic world.
The outcome is not an evolution, but some more or less lacking attempt that generated a genre on it's own over time. I'd call that a devolution, even though I love MMOs for what they are in themselves. Still, the comparision is nonsene.
Sandbox games are getting a tad closer to these ideas in regards to freedom. Unfortunately, at least in regards to how they were conducted in the past (and I still don't see any different approach in DF so far)they are at the same time getting farther apart form them in regards to some sort of supervision of true RPing,that would be the task of the GM in the non-elctrionic world. Non-sandbox games like EQ and the likes try to address this by their game dynamics, taking the player by the hand to some extent. In a sandbox, this would have to be done by massive GM activity, but I dare to say that never really ever happened in those titles.
The MMO that would get closest to P&P RPG in my opinion would have to fulfill the following needs:
-open, sandbox world
-highest degree of freedom to interact with the world, other palyers and npcs
-independant lore for the world (no license please, as this again would lead to problems in freedom), providing a base for morale decisions
-massive GM intervention with GM-driven, worldwide interwoven plots as a standard, not as some sort of bonus
-experience and progression thorugh various activities, including quality RP and morale decisions
The main point in this is that you just can't replace a human GM with programmed game dynamics. This is impossible and intrinsically leads to a completely different gaming experience.
Sad enough, the game I saw getting closest to this idea was the epic failure DnL has been. Apart form all the shortcomings, messups, lies and whatever else you can throw at it, it incorporated all of the above to some extent for a while.
DF however doesn't seem to take a lot of care of the RP side of things, while concentrating on the sandbox idea. I'm still eagerly awayting this title, as I love a lot of it's ideas and if might truely be different in many aspects, but to say it's close to P6P RPGs is just plainly wrong. Ask yourself one question: How will staying in character, palying your role well make you progress your character?
Umbral makes an excellent rebuttal. My personal favorite sandbox game is Battlefield. Personally, I feel all shooters are a sub-genre of RPG's, since you "roleplay" combat. However, it is not roleplaying in the classic sense. As Umbral stated, classic RPG's have rule-sets and a plot start. Within those rules, the characters collabaratively advance the plot (with the guidance of the GM).
That said, as Umbral also alluded to, today's players, for the most part, do not immerse themselves in "classic" RPG playing. Due to the technology, when you play a modern RPG, you are the character, and the character is you. There is no consideration of"what would my character do," rather "what should I do". This is simply because players no longer have to imagine, and therefore consider, their setting. As a mage, facing a BEM (bug-eyed monster), you don't have to picture it in your head, how far away from it you are, what the terrain is, and do computations on mana, available spells, etc. There may not even be time to consult companions on strategy, etc., as there would be with a pen and paper RPG.
Even though theme-park MMORPGs can produce the closest electronic approximation to classic RPGS, through quests and what-not... sandboxes could allow the most freedom for groups of individuals to choose to create their own classic RPG rulesets, within the game.
I disagree with Umbral that GM's are necisssary to create an electronic version of a classic RPG. GMs' primary functions are to keep the players within the ruleset, and to deteremine and reveal the advancement of the plotline. Using fuzzy-logic and branching story lines, the computer can determine and reveal the advancement of the plot (even though we don't see this utilized in MMORPG quests). However, to create a classic RPG in a sandbox, GM's would be necissary, although players could appoint their own GM's for their own groups.
All that aside, since imagination is required to a much smaller extent in a graphics-based game, there will never be a MMORPG that truelly captures what a classic RPG is. If that's what you want, the closest computerized version would either be MUD's or a colloborative online D&D (et al) management toolset.
I get the sense from your posts that you think Darkfall is going to be Call of Duty in a persistent fantasy world, there is MUCH more to it than that, have another look at what the game is bringing to the table.
Lets wait and see Blopls, after the release it will be possible for us to talk about this subject without the risk of false impressions about the game...
Umbral makes an excellent rebuttal. My personal favorite sandbox game is Battlefield. Personally, I feel all shooters are a sub-genre of RPG's, since you "roleplay" combat. However, it is not roleplaying in the classic sense. As Umbral stated, classic RPG's have rule-sets and a plot start. Within those rules, the characters collabaratively advance the plot (with the guidance of the GM). That said, as Umbral also alluded to, today's players, for the most part, do not immerse themselves in "classic" RPG playing. Due to the technology, when you play a modern RPG, you are the character, and the character is you. There is no consideration of"what would my character do," rather "what should I do". This is simply because players no longer have to imagine, and therefore consider, their setting. As a mage, facing a BEM (bug-eyed monster), you don't have to picture it in your head, how far away from it you are, what the terrain is, and do computations on mana, available spells, etc. There may not even be time to consult companions on strategy, etc., as there would be with a pen and paper RPG. Even though theme-park MMORPGs can produce the closest electronic approximation to classic RPGS, through quests and what-not... sandboxes could allow the most freedom for groups of individuals to choose to create their own classic RPG rulesets, within the game. I disagree with Umbral that GM's are necisssary to create an electronic version of a classic RPG. GMs' primary functions are to keep the players within the ruleset, and to deteremine and reveal the advancement of the plotline. Using fuzzy-logic and branching story lines, the computer can determine and reveal the advancement of the plot (even though we don't see this utilized in MMORPG quests). However, to create a classic RPG in a sandbox, GM's would be necissary, although players could appoint their own GM's for their own groups. All that aside, since imagination is required to a much smaller extent in a graphics-based game, there will never be a MMORPG that truelly captures what a classic RPG is. If that's what you want, the closest computerized version would either be MUD's or a colloborative online D&D (et al) management toolset.
Comments
The thing is your trying to seperate the RPG from the game and you can't. Yes it is a sandbox but first and foremost it is an RPG. It is the primal definition of an RPG game it just has more tools and freedom.
As far as it not being similar to D&D which part are you talking about? If your reffering to the RPG part? Yes it is. You still take on the role of another. Mechanic wise? Mostly no.
The main difference is instead of sitting around telling the story you are actual living the story.
What I said about primal definition is not about Darkfall, but about sandboxes.
It seems some people belive that the primal definition of RPG is freedom and sandbox like experience, what is not.
About D&D is about the mechanics, system and how the mix between mechanics and the role you play works.
Im not trying to separate or say that Darkfall is or is not a RPG.
See, most of MMORPGS have some RPG elements, the role, mechanics, lore, Darkfall has some elements, it is just not MORE of an RPG than EQ2, War, Vanguard... it is just more of a sandbox...this can be good or bad in some ocasions.
...anyway, as I said, we will see at the release.
...
What I said about primal definition is not about Darkfall, but about sandboxes.
It seems some people belive that the primal definition of RPG is freedom and sandbox like experience, what is not.
About D&D is about the mechanics, system and how the mix between mechanics and the role you play works.
Im not trying to separate or say that Darkfall is or is not a RPG.
See, most of MMORPGS have some RPG elements, the role, mechanics, lore, Darkfall has some elements, it is just not MORE of an RPG than EQ2, War, Vanguard... it is just more of a sandbox...this can be good or bad in some ocasions.
...anyway, as I said, we will see at the release.
...
DarkFall has all the elements. Here they are again since you seemed to miss it the first time.
"Role-playing game, a game in which players assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create narratives"
Wether people RP or not is the only thing debatable because it is in fact a RPG game. It doesn't have some of the elements, it is undisputable so a RPG game. Each RPG is different but they are RPG's. With what your saying I have to say you don't know what makes an RPG which is fine. I have informed you what makes an RPG so I hope this has helped. We can wait till the game comes out but that doesn't change that it is an RPG lol. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
What I said about primal definition is not about Darkfall, but about sandboxes.
It seems some people belive that the primal definition of RPG is freedom and sandbox like experience, what is not.
About D&D is about the mechanics, system and how the mix between mechanics and the role you play works.
Im not trying to separate or say that Darkfall is or is not a RPG.
See, most of MMORPGS have some RPG elements, the role, mechanics, lore, Darkfall has some elements, it is just not MORE of an RPG than EQ2, War, Vanguard... it is just more of a sandbox...this can be good or bad in some ocasions.
...anyway, as I said, we will see at the release.
...
DarkFall has all the elements. Here they are again since you seemed to miss it the first time.
"Role-playing game, a game in which players assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create narratives"
Wether people RP or not is the only thing debatable because it is in fact a RPG game. It doesn't have some of the elements, it is undisputable so a RPG game. Each RPG is different but they are RPG's. With what your saying I have to say you don't know what makes an RPG which is fine. I have informed you what makes an RPG so I hope this has helped. We can wait till the game comes out but that doesn't change that it is an RPG lol. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
1-You started to act with arrogance, you didnt inform me anything, you said RP is related to play in the role of a character, I already said that a couple of times before your reply.
2-It seems to be hard for you to understand, I never said Darkfall is not a rpg game, your "lol" is childish and misplaced.
3-The affirmation that Darkfall is the closest MMORPG to the classic "D&D" experience is wrong.
This subject started to be repetitive and with the fact you are trying to distorce and misinterpret what I said, doesnt help.
Your words "D&D were not like electronic Sandbox MMORPG's because they are in fact very linear."
But now you just want to pick a fight, you created the fact that I said Darkfall is not an RPG and started to belive that you said to me what is roleplaying when I already said that a couple of times here before you...see? This is going nowhere.
Just to help you with your misconceptions, when someone say "Sandbox is not equal to roleplaying game" it DOESNT mean "Darkfall is not a RPG" or you cant have RP moments in a sandbox... capiche?
...
Forgod sake Umbral, the premise is so easily understood, im starting to think you are literally just trolling the point you picked out from my post is such a minor one anyway and its just a theoretical example im not complelly comparing the two games because ofcourse there are major differences from a p&p rpg to an electronic mmorpg. All im saying is just that in THEORY d&d is the best type of roleplaying game there can be as it can in THEORY be completelly free with no restrictions whatsoever so you are free to roleplay your character (if your playing it sort of sandboxy style like alot of people did). Well comparing it to DF, yes, ofcourse DF is a predefined world with predefined lore but you would use some predefined lore in d&d like creatures for example anyway.
You are still ROLEPLAYING within the set lore, the fact is darkfall is one of the least restricted games and has alot of features providing a much better roleplaying experience, a much more free roleplaying experience than a themepark mmorpg, i also know alot of people will play it more like a competative game and not play the game from a "character in a virtual world" perspective and play it from more of a "im going to pwn you int he face you noob" perspective but that will happen in any game as there are people that just simply dont know how to roleplay or dont want to. All sandbox games allow for is a better RPG experience in my opinion because of this freedom in comparison to a themepark mmorpg like WoW. There are many reasons why DF would be a better RPG in the roleplaying sense than a game like WoW is.
I am probably leaning to the "pwn you in tha face noob" side, because I am in a competitive PvP guild, buuuuut me and my friends love people who roleplay even if we dont do it much ourselves.
It just makes it a much more interesting virtual world to live in.
And to be honest many of us pvp'ers are also rpg fans, have played D&D or at least games like baldurs gate, neverwinter nights, or such.
And those of us who label ourselves mainly as pk's/rpks/peekays are essentially roleplaying "the bad guys". And we create so much drama in the games we play, you wouldnt wanna miss out on that really..
Khael[SUN]
SUN - peekayin since pong
Webdeveloper on:
http://www.guildofsun.com
http://www.bloodmonarchy.com
Yeah, as i said people always play in different ways its just that in an rpg like this where its quite free i like to roleplay to a certain extent because it is alot more enjoyable and the main point, it is WAY more immersive if you are playing from the point of view that your character is real, as if its more like a story.
You can still pvp, be competative and play the game more like an rpg, pretending your character is a real character with reputation to some extent, and when i use the term rpg i mean when your playing you can chat normally in chat and just not use words and do things that would deter it from fictional realism like running around flashing nude and calling everyone noobs. Its just that this is an rpg at heart and its a shame that there are so many people out there that dont play an rpg as an rpg in the slightest.
Its just like the difference between, when watching the lotr films for example, believing it is real (which i think would give you alot more enjoyment and immersion when watching) than just watching it as a human made creation.
I think it would benefit everyone if everyone had some kind of roleplayness when they are playing a game like Darkfall which ofcourse is an RPG, basically just to try and not do anything which would take away the imagination and immersion of a virtual world and its characters. Ofcourse this wont happen though there will always be people who dont.
I am a pvper myself as i love the competitiveness of fighting against real people, but also dont go around killing people and shouting noob in their face because they lost, for example, which just takes away a bit from the rpg experience.
Keep in mind Im not saying that all the others MMOs are perfect example of RPGs, as I said, would prefer new MMOs with more RPG elements (moral decisions, presonal tales that really make an impact in your character, more place to creativity and lore) and less pure action elements.
Darkfall has more scope for moral decisions, it has a dynamic alignment system which will mean that your actions will have a direct impact on your character and how other elements of the game world interact with you. A lot of mmo's do not trust the player base enough to allow morality to be a part of the game.
Sandboxes allow a much greater scope to create your own personal tales due to the freedom available. Your efforts to create your own personal tale are hampered in themeparks as your character development and the game plot is already there before you even start playing.
I get the sense from your posts that you think Darkfall is going to be Call of Duty in a persistent fantasy world, there is MUCH more to it than that, have another look at what the game is bringing to the table.
Nice post, i agree.
I still think most here don't get the difference between classical P6P RPGs and todays MMORPGs, Sandbox or not:
There bascially is not a single MMORPG, including DF, that supports one of the central, main ideas of the typical RPGs, no matter what ruleset: They are encouraging and, most of all, gving you benefit and progression through roleplaying.
To characterize MMOs as an evolution of P6P RPGs is as much a far fetch as a very bsic misconception. They're an attempt to translate the basic idea of playing together with a high degree of freedom, based on nothing more but a common ruleset and the decisions of a GM as well as the underlying principle of social interaction as THE core component of the game into an electronic world.
The outcome is not an evolution, but some more or less lacking attempt that generated a genre on it's own over time. I'd call that a devolution, even though I love MMOs for what they are in themselves. Still, the comparision is nonsene.
Sandbox games are getting a tad closer to these ideas in regards to freedom. Unfortunately, at least in regards to how they were conducted in the past (and I still don't see any different approach in DF so far)they are at the same time getting farther apart form them in regards to some sort of supervision of true RPing,that would be the task of the GM in the non-elctrionic world. Non-sandbox games like EQ and the likes try to address this by their game dynamics, taking the player by the hand to some extent. In a sandbox, this would have to be done by massive GM activity, but I dare to say that never really ever happened in those titles.
The MMO that would get closest to P&P RPG in my opinion would have to fulfill the following needs:
-open, sandbox world
-highest degree of freedom to interact with the world, other palyers and npcs
-independant lore for the world (no license please, as this again would lead to problems in freedom), providing a base for morale decisions
-massive GM intervention with GM-driven, worldwide interwoven plots as a standard, not as some sort of bonus
-experience and progression thorugh various activities, including quality RP and morale decisions
The main point in this is that you just can't replace a human GM with programmed game dynamics. This is impossible and intrinsically leads to a completely different gaming experience.
Sad enough, the game I saw getting closest to this idea was the epic failure DnL has been. Apart form all the shortcomings, messups, lies and whatever else you can throw at it, it incorporated all of the above to some extent for a while.
DF however doesn't seem to take a lot of care of the RP side of things, while concentrating on the sandbox idea. I'm still eagerly awayting this title, as I love a lot of it's ideas and if might truely be different in many aspects, but to say it's close to P6P RPGs is just plainly wrong. Ask yourself one question: How will staying in character, palying your role well make you progress your character?
Umbral makes an excellent rebuttal. My personal favorite sandbox game is Battlefield. Personally, I feel all shooters are a sub-genre of RPG's, since you "roleplay" combat. However, it is not roleplaying in the classic sense. As Umbral stated, classic RPG's have rule-sets and a plot start. Within those rules, the characters collabaratively advance the plot (with the guidance of the GM).
That said, as Umbral also alluded to, today's players, for the most part, do not immerse themselves in "classic" RPG playing. Due to the technology, when you play a modern RPG, you are the character, and the character is you. There is no consideration of "what would my character do," rather "what should I do". This is simply because players no longer have to imagine, and therefore consider, their setting. As a mage, facing a BEM (bug-eyed monster), you don't have to picture it in your head, how far away from it you are, what the terrain is, and do computations on mana, available spells, etc. There may not even be time to consult companions on strategy, etc., as there would be with a pen and paper RPG.
Even though theme-park MMORPGs can produce the closest electronic approximation to classic RPGS, through quests and what-not... sandboxes could allow the most freedom for groups of individuals to choose to create their own classic RPG rulesets, within the game.
I disagree with Umbral that GM's are necisssary to create an electronic version of a classic RPG. GMs' primary functions are to keep the players within the ruleset, and to deteremine and reveal the advancement of the plotline. Using fuzzy-logic and branching story lines, the computer can determine and reveal the advancement of the plot (even though we don't see this utilized in MMORPG quests). However, to create a classic RPG in a sandbox, GM's would be necissary, although players could appoint their own GM's for their own groups.
All that aside, since imagination is required to a much smaller extent in a graphics-based game, there will never be a MMORPG that truelly captures what a classic RPG is. If that's what you want, the closest computerized version would either be MUD's or a colloborative online D&D (et al) management toolset.
Lets wait and see Blopls, after the release it will be possible for us to talk about this subject without the risk of false impressions about the game...
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Very good points roguetech, I agree with you.
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