The fallacy in many views here is that you can either do WOW or a sandbox. Look at what bioware is good at (KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect) .... good STORY based RPG. Note that WOW is NOT a story based game. No one ever cares enough to read the quest descriptions beyond what you need to do and what loot you will get afterwards. WOW is a great hack-n-slash game. I think bioware can take the theme-park idea further, using more instancing to make a story driven MMO. It would be very nice if bioware can get people to focus on stories and may be stories that need particpation of the many.
One thing I liked about DDO was the voice overs for the quests. I'm not completely against instancing in some cases, like personal type persona quests. I expect to see some of those in this MMO as early as the very begining of the game.
I don't have tp prove a thing. All anyone has to do is sit back and observe. At the end of the day, mmo consumers are way beyond fed up playing these themepark type mmo's that hold your hand and lead you around like a goat on a rope. Every time you mention the "mmo consumer", or "SW MMO player", what you're actually saying is "me and my online buddies". You do NOT speak for the general MMO gaming populace. This is why you are seeing alot of the up and comming mmo's breaking away from the WOW model and reintroducing sandbox systems. The only "up and coming" MMOs that I see tinkering with sandbox systems are the same ones that have always done it--games made by small time developers which stand a high chance of never even seeing the light of day, much less being a stable, enjoyable experience. Look, just because WOW created a mmo that became something of an anomily in the gaming world, doesn't mean that it's success will ever happen again, even if it's a new SW mmo. WOW is old and dated, and every mmo that has tried to copy it has been a total failure within 6 months after release. Really? They've all been -total failures-? I would be careful how you judge success--compare subs of today's MMOs with that of your precious SW:G *during its peak*, and you won't see much difference. Hell, Warhammer Online has already blown past what pre-CU SW:G was able to do. Even when Sony jumped on the band wagon and changed SWG and lost hundreds of thousands of subs, looking to cash in on WOW's thempark style of play, they still didn't succeed, so what is that telling you. It tells me that they should have kept catering to their niche fanbase, intead of going for another fanbase. The same thing would happen if Blizzard suddenly turned WoW into a sandbox. Mass exodus of subscribers. It in no way proves that themepark is somehow less viable than sandbox. You just simply don't change your game on the fly, no matter what kind of game it is. MMO's like Darkfall, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth, STO, Earthrise and a few more, are trying to take the mmo genre to a next lvl. The times of thempark dev hand holding and gear grinding day in and out are coming to an end. As I stated above, all of these games are small time (and since when did STO have sandbox elements?). Sure, these games may release, but they won't make waves. Just ripples, if they're lucky. If Bioware wants to compete, they better have done their homework and have not copied a product that is 5 yrs. old and worn out. Yeah, they should copy a *6* year old game that is old and worn out (SWG). As far as my statement of SW mmo player's would rather play in a breathing world than a turned up instanced one with spoonfed dev content. I can for sure tell that all Bioware has to do is look no further than SWG. Man, you are a classic dyed-in-the-wool SWG fanboy. Brilliant. Telling a story and having a player get involved with it is not a problem. The problem comes from not giving the player the option to choose if they want to participate or not. As well as give the players the in game tools to create their own story that changes the online world. I'm really not sure why you've taken the time to type this long post. You know full well BioWare will not do any of this. Player-created content? Yeah right. They've already said as much. SW is a massive open book, when the KOTOR era is being observed. By making it a thempark mmo, in the vain of WOW, AOC, GW, and to many other 's to even mention would be doing the SW franchise a diservice. Bioware has the opportunity to do something that is cutting edge and could be brilliant. On the other hand they could dress a turd up and try and pass it off as the next big thing and fail miserably. BioWare's MMO is not going to be hurting without you or the other 250k that were around during pre-CU SWG. Don't try to speak for everybody when you try to claim that sandbox is what everyone wants.
I don't have tp prove a thing. All anyone has to do is sit back and observe. At the end of the day, mmo consumers are way beyond fed up playing these themepark type mmo's that hold your hand and lead you around like a goat on a rope. Every time you mention the "mmo consumer", or "SW MMO player", what you're actually saying is "me and my online buddies". You do NOT speak for the general MMO gaming populace. This is why you are seeing alot of the up and comming mmo's breaking away from the WOW model and reintroducing sandbox systems. The only "up and coming" MMOs that I see tinkering with sandbox systems are the same ones that have always done it--games made by small time developers which stand a high chance of never even seeing the light of day, much less being a stable, enjoyable experience. Look, just because WOW created a mmo that became something of an anomily in the gaming world, doesn't mean that it's success will ever happen again, even if it's a new SW mmo. WOW is old and dated, and every mmo that has tried to copy it has been a total failure within 6 months after release. Really? They've all been -total failures-? I would be careful how you judge success--compare subs of today's MMOs with that of your precious SW:G *during its peak*, and you won't see much difference. Hell, Warhammer Online has already blown past what pre-CU SW:G was able to do. Even when Sony jumped on the band wagon and changed SWG and lost hundreds of thousands of subs, looking to cash in on WOW's thempark style of play, they still didn't succeed, so what is that telling you. It tells me that they should have kept catering to their niche fanbase, intead of going for another fanbase. The same thing would happen if Blizzard suddenly turned WoW into a sandbox. Mass exodus of subscribers. It in no way proves that themepark is somehow less viable than sandbox. You just simply don't change your game on the fly, no matter what kind of game it is. MMO's like Darkfall, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth, STO, Earthrise and a few more, are trying to take the mmo genre to a next lvl. The times of thempark dev hand holding and gear grinding day in and out are coming to an end. As I stated above, all of these games are small time (and since when did STO have sandbox elements?). Sure, these games may release, but they won't make waves. Just ripples, if they're lucky. If Bioware wants to compete, they better have done their homework and have not copied a product that is 5 yrs. old and worn out. Yeah, they should copy a *6* year old game that is old and worn out (SWG). As far as my statement of SW mmo player's would rather play in a breathing world than a turned up instanced one with spoonfed dev content. I can for sure tell that all Bioware has to do is look no further than SWG. Man, you are a classic dyed-in-the-wool SWG fanboy. Brilliant. Telling a story and having a player get involved with it is not a problem. The problem comes from not giving the player the option to choose if they want to participate or not. As well as give the players the in game tools to create their own story that changes the online world. I'm really not sure why you've taken the time to type this long post. You know full well BioWare will not do any of this. Player-created content? Yeah right. They've already said as much. SW is a massive open book, when the KOTOR era is being observed. By making it a thempark mmo, in the vain of WOW, AOC, GW, and to many other 's to even mention would be doing the SW franchise a diservice. Bioware has the opportunity to do something that is cutting edge and could be brilliant. On the other hand they could dress a turd up and try and pass it off as the next big thing and fail miserably. BioWare's MMO is not going to be hurting without you or the other 250k that were around during pre-CU SWG. Don't try to speak for everybody when you try to claim that sandbox is what everyone wants.
Never claimed everyone wanted it. If you would just open your eyes and read some of the threads that get posted on this very sight you might come to a realization.
I am very proud of being a pre-cu SWG fan, not gonna argue about that. The reason why i typed this post was because, as a consumer, i would like to finally see a mmorpg come out that isn't in the same vain of the almighty WOW. That shit is getting old you know.
I also never said that i think that they should create a SWG2 version mmo. I do believe however that if they make a over instanced, lead you on a string type mmo, they could be flirting with disaster.
Just because it worked for WOW doesn't mean it will work again. I still can't believe that there people like you, that are so mind screwed and zombied from the effects of WOW, that you think raiding and grinding for gear is all there is to an mmorpg.
Let me guess, your first mmo was WOW, right. I really pity someone like you if that's the case. Oh wait, SWG NGE might have been your first, that's why you feathers are in such a ruffle.
Your probably a old pre-cu player who thought there was to much reading in SWG and obtaining a jedi was to hard and took to long. Wait, no old school pre-cu player would think that way, so.
If there's gonna be people like you running rampant in a new Bioware SW mmo, thanks for the warning, so i can stay as far away as possible.
Given Lucas' overall current obsession with the Clone Wars era, I wouldn't be surprised if the game were set in the sunset years of the Old Republic...the Clone Wars.
The advantage of this period is there's lots of action going on. Recall that Governor Bibble of Naboo stated in Episode II that there had not been a general war in a thousand years.
The Clone Wars gives us lots of lightsaber action, as there are plenty of Jedi around (unlike during Episode IV!) and lots of just plain fighting of all types between the Republic and the Separatists.
Now, they could set this game farther back, to the Great Hyperspace War 5000 years before the Battle of Yavin, or the Exar Kun war, or the Mandalorian War, or the Jedi Civil War. That would be KOTOR times.4000 years BBY. Or somehwat later, around the time of Darth Bane and the insitution of the "Rule of Two".
As for a theme park? Why not, but make it possible to do some sandbox ala the Grand Theft Auto series? Can't you do both? SWG had several theme parks. True, some of them were not complete at launch. I'd expect BioWare to avoid this particular trap.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Never claimed everyone wanted it. If you would just open your eyes and read some of the threads that get posted on this very sight you might come to a realization. If you would simply open your eyes and realize that the people screaming "sandbox" on this site are in the extreme minority, we'd have a lot less posts like this. The moment I start believing what I read on MMORPG.com as what gamers really want is the moment I will realize that I am totally detached from reality. I am very proud of being a pre-cu SWG fan, not gonna argue about that. The reason why i typed this post was because, as a consumer, i would like to finally see a mmorpg come out that isn't in the same vain of the almighty WOW. That shit is getting old you know. Actually, all of those old sandbox games like Ultima Online and SW:G is what was getting old. Like it or not, WoW came along and revealed a gameplay style that millions enjoy. I also never said that i think that they should create a SWG2 version mmo. I do believe however that if they make a over instanced, lead you on a string type mmo, they could be flirting with disaster. You came right out and said that all BioWare has to do is to "look to SWG". Just because it worked for WOW doesn't mean it will work again. I still can't believe that there people like you, that are so mind screwed and zombied from the effects of WOW, that you think raiding and grinding for gear is all there is to an mmorpg. Let me guess, your first mmo was WOW, right. I really pity someone like you if that's the case. Oh wait, SWG NGE might have been your first, that's why you feathers are in such a ruffle. Your probably a old pre-cu player who thought there was to much reading in SWG and obtaining a jedi was to hard and took to long. Wait, no old school pre-cu player would think that way, so. If there's gonna be people like you running rampant in a new Bioware SW mmo, thanks for the warning, so i can stay as far away as possible. These last 4 paragraphs must be where you ran out of points to make. "Well, I don't have anything else of worth to say, so I might as well try to insult the guy I'm replying to."
Really, I don't get why there is this group of people who think that sandbox MMOs are destined to be the only true evolution of the MMO. Sandbox games had their chance--and they didn't really go anywhere.
Never claimed everyone wanted it. If you would just open your eyes and read some of the threads that get posted on this very sight you might come to a realization. If you would simply open your eyes and realize that the people screaming "sandbox" on this site are in the extreme minority, we'd have a lot less posts like this. The moment I start believing what I read on MMORPG.com as what gamers really want is the moment I will realize that I am totally detached from reality. I am very proud of being a pre-cu SWG fan, not gonna argue about that. The reason why i typed this post was because, as a consumer, i would like to finally see a mmorpg come out that isn't in the same vain of the almighty WOW. That shit is getting old you know. Actually, all of those old sandbox games like Ultima Online and SW:G is what was getting old. Like it or not, WoW came along and revealed a gameplay style that millions enjoy. I also never said that i think that they should create a SWG2 version mmo. I do believe however that if they make a over instanced, lead you on a string type mmo, they could be flirting with disaster. You came right out and said that all BioWare has to do is to "look to SWG". Just because it worked for WOW doesn't mean it will work again. I still can't believe that there people like you, that are so mind screwed and zombied from the effects of WOW, that you think raiding and grinding for gear is all there is to an mmorpg. Let me guess, your first mmo was WOW, right. I really pity someone like you if that's the case. Oh wait, SWG NGE might have been your first, that's why you feathers are in such a ruffle. Your probably a old pre-cu player who thought there was to much reading in SWG and obtaining a jedi was to hard and took to long. Wait, no old school pre-cu player would think that way, so. If there's gonna be people like you running rampant in a new Bioware SW mmo, thanks for the warning, so i can stay as far away as possible. These last 4 paragraphs must be where you ran out of points to make. "Well, I don't have anything else of worth to say, so I might as well try to insult the guy I'm replying to."
Really, I don't get why there is this group of people who think that sandbox MMOs are destined to be the only true evolution of the MMO. Sandbox games had their chance--and they didn't really go anywhere.
See, your reading but not understanding. when i mentioned that all Bioware had to do was look at SWG, i meant that Sony changed the game to make it more like a WOW clone and now it is deader than ever. It has been that way since 2005.
I was clearly making a statement, that if Bioware follows that path of development and not have sandbox systems, they could, COULD, be flirting with disaster.
As far as insulting you. You know, you can try and learn someone and make them take off the blinders and actually dwell in reality. After that, it's time to take the club out and get hit over the head over and over.
As far as insulting you. You know, you can try and learn someone and make them take off the blinders and actually dwell in reality. After that, it's time to take the club out and get hit over the head over and over.
I guess when this game finally comes out, we'll see which one of us needed to be bludgeoned over the head with the reality club.
I think you're also misunderstanding me. I"ve never said this BioWare MMO should be exactly like WoW. But it should definitely not follow down the failed path of the sandbox.
You may be right in that there may never be a game that mimics the success of WoW again. But do you blame developers for apeing it? The smart money is on trying to take ideas from a game style that has at least proven successful, not one that to this day never managed to go anywhere.
I'm putting chips on Bioware creating a heavily instanced story driven game with a bunch of side mechanics that have non-core stories that aren't istanced.
Bioware's MMO will essentially be Guild Wars with a Star Wars skin slapped over the top of it. Were the combat systems in KOTOR1 good? Not really. Not to say it was bad but there was nothing that amazing about it.
Think about what made the game good. It was the story telling aspect. Ditto for NWN and Mass Effect. Exact same MO.
Now consider how the Bioware execs, when interviewed, have always stressed their company's strength as being story telling.
Then translate "story telling" to an MMO and what do you get? A completely linear instance heavy themepark fest.
Sorry, but this whole "Bioware is going to revolutionize the MMO industry!" business is the biggest crock ever. Bioware simply can't make a game which will provide the type of player freedom veteran MMOers crave. This will literally be the WoW of sci-fi MMOs and not much else.
Then translate "story telling" to an MMO and what do you get? A completely linear instance heavy themepark fest. Sorry, but this whole "Bioware is going to revolutionize the MMO industry!" business is the biggest crock ever. Bioware simply can't make a game which will provide the type of player freedom veteran MMOers crave. This will literally be the WoW of sci-fi MMOs and not much else.
Why would they want to cater to a niche market? If i were a developer, i won't want to provide the type of playe rfreedom veteren MMOers crave either.
And why would that be revolutoinize the industry? They would be going back to ancient UO style.
No one has done story right in MMO yet. WOW does hack-n-slash right. Now it is Bioware turn to do story right .. if they can do that .. they will revolutionize the MMO industry. And that is much much better than going back to the dead sandbox model.
Never claimed everyone wanted it. If you would just open your eyes and read some of the threads that get posted on this very sight you might come to a realization. If you would simply open your eyes and realize that the people screaming "sandbox" on this site are in the extreme minority, we'd have a lot less posts like this. The moment I start believing what I read on MMORPG.com as what gamers really want is the moment I will realize that I am totally detached from reality. I am very proud of being a pre-cu SWG fan, not gonna argue about that. The reason why i typed this post was because, as a consumer, i would like to finally see a mmorpg come out that isn't in the same vain of the almighty WOW. That shit is getting old you know. Actually, all of those old sandbox games like Ultima Online and SW:G is what was getting old. Like it or not, WoW came along and revealed a gameplay style that millions enjoy. I also never said that i think that they should create a SWG2 version mmo. I do believe however that if they make a over instanced, lead you on a string type mmo, they could be flirting with disaster. You came right out and said that all BioWare has to do is to "look to SWG". Just because it worked for WOW doesn't mean it will work again. I still can't believe that there people like you, that are so mind screwed and zombied from the effects of WOW, that you think raiding and grinding for gear is all there is to an mmorpg. Let me guess, your first mmo was WOW, right. I really pity someone like you if that's the case. Oh wait, SWG NGE might have been your first, that's why you feathers are in such a ruffle. Your probably a old pre-cu player who thought there was to much reading in SWG and obtaining a jedi was to hard and took to long. Wait, no old school pre-cu player would think that way, so. If there's gonna be people like you running rampant in a new Bioware SW mmo, thanks for the warning, so i can stay as far away as possible. These last 4 paragraphs must be where you ran out of points to make. "Well, I don't have anything else of worth to say, so I might as well try to insult the guy I'm replying to."
Really, I don't get why there is this group of people who think that sandbox MMOs are destined to be the only true evolution of the MMO. Sandbox games had their chance--and they didn't really go anywhere.
Cant say that sandbox games didnt go anywhere its the people playing them too impatient whining what to do next, Not bothering to read what the NPCs are telling you , not learning the skill based system actually planning what you want to be... most people wanted instant gratification , kiddies, and causal gamers, they dont want to work for nothing, they dont like to read, they like to be led like sheep and not take any risks and want to solo everything which makes playing MMOs moot to begin with... no sandbox type games didnt fail it was the type of people playing them that failed. Its getting to the point people have just stopped playing MMOs cause they are going on the path to nowhere. A good number of players are getting tired of seeing the same shit over and over and the game fails. Most of the players in the MMO genre have never even played a sandbox game cause there is hardly any sandbox games out there... now that we finally see some on the way we should see more and more players come play these types of games.
Of course there will be carebear causal games and then the FFA PVP type sandbox games I want my freedom to do what I want in a game and not be led to the next quest or god fobid raid for my gear when it should be the crafter making my gear...
I'm not saying they should. The point of my post was to cement the fact that the KOTOR MMO will most assuredly not be remarkable or innovative in any way whatsoever. It's just gonna be SSDD.
why are any of you excited about starwars? have you been blind to the lucas arts of present? georgy boy ruined ep 1-3, a dumb cartoon and force unleashed. can you really expect starwars mmo to be any good if lucas arts got their hands on it in anyway? bioware has proven time they are fully capable to designing their own lore and a brilliant game to boot (mass effect). they don't need lucas arts in any way, but starwars is a gold mine no matter how awful your game turns out (forced unleashed). bioware will make a good game, it will be different to wow. i just hope it's bioware whos running the show not lucas arts. bioware is not blizzard, they won't create another wow clone because they have already done better.
Bioware unfortunately have progressed worse in the RPG genre with games like mass effect and jade empire ( although jade wasn't bad , it could have been better) I hope they prove themselves again with dragon age and the secret project. If not , well people , we always have a polish developer who created just one game but already created one of the best RPG'S in 5 years.
How can you call Mass Effect bad? That game was a kickass rpg, with topnotch storytelling, allthough cliched. It had it faults, the sidequests got a little repetitive, but other tham that, it was highly enjoyable to play, well made and thought out, putting Bioware up there as one of the real masters of crpgs.
They always delivered on their rpg's, Baldurs Gate was breaking new grounds when it was released, and stands the test of time. It's still played to this day by people, and Minsc became a cultural phenonemon in gaming circles. Kotor1 was enthralling, Kotor2 not so much, but the second wasn't Bioware's game. Neverwinter Nights, the first one mind you, brought the gm into multiplayer rpg sessions.
All in all, Bioware a great developer and I got high hopes for their new mmo. We need some scifi already as the fantasy theme been beaten to death.
Originally posted by shadenis Bioware unfortunately have progressed worse in the RPG genre with games like mass effect and jade empire ( although jade wasn't bad , it could have been better) I hope they prove themselves again with dragon age and the secret project. If not , well people , we always have a polish developer who created just one game but already created one of the best RPG'S in 5 years.
Finally, someone else with taste! Agreed 100% although I have little hope Dragon Age will be any good. Obsidian is decent but they need to get the hell away from the NWN2 engine, or atleast do what CDProjekt did and turn it into something not completely horrible.
I'm putting chips on Bioware creating a heavily instanced story driven game with a bunch of side mechanics that have non-core stories that aren't istanced.
Again, I have to agree. With all of their talk of creating a great, story driven game, it seems likely that they would want to create a heavily instanced "mmo" with a minimal amount of open world elements.
Personally, I hope we're wrong, because I wouldn't have much interest in this type of "mmo". But, I'm still putting my money on this out come. MMO developers (especially AAA MMO developers) seem less interested in creating "worlds", when they can just create a theme park and fill it with cheap quests and attractions.
Yes, I know who Bioware is and I wouldn't expect them to produce the same surplus of cheap, shitty quests that other MMOs churn out. However, theres only so much you can do with a quest in an MMO. No matter how well written or exciting the quest may be, it's still cheesy when you realize that every other player is running through the exact same, static quest...
I'm putting chips on Bioware creating a heavily instanced story driven game with a bunch of side mechanics that have non-core stories that aren't istanced.
Bioware's MMO will essentially be Guild Wars with a Star Wars skin slapped over the top of it. Were the combat systems in KOTOR1 good? Not really. Not to say it was bad but there was nothing that amazing about it.
Think about what made the game good. It was the story telling aspect. Ditto for NWN and Mass Effect. Exact same MO.
Now consider how the Bioware execs, when interviewed, have always stressed their company's strength as being story telling.
Then translate "story telling" to an MMO and what do you get? A completely linear instance heavy themepark fest.
Sorry, but this whole "Bioware is going to revolutionize the MMO industry!" business is the biggest crock ever. Bioware simply can't make a game which will provide the type of player freedom veteran MMOers crave. This will literally be the WoW of sci-fi MMOs and not much else.
Well, the linear story will still be more popular than sandbox. There is also the benefit that it might really piss off the old SWG sandbox fans who have been complaining about their game for the past N years. Hopefully it will piss them off so bad, they avoid this game!
Bioware unfortunately have progressed worse in the RPG genre with games like mass effect and jade empire ( although jade wasn't bad , it could have been better) I hope they prove themselves again with dragon age and the secret project. If not , well people , we always have a polish developer who created just one game but already created one of the best RPG'S in 5 years.
How can you call Mass Effect bad? That game was a kickass rpg, with topnotch storytelling, allthough cliched. It had it faults, the sidequests got a little repetitive, but other tham that, it was highly enjoyable to play, well made and thought out, putting Bioware up there as one of the real masters of crpgs.
They always delivered on their rpg's, Baldurs Gate was breaking new grounds when it was released, and stands the test of time. It's still played to this day by people, and Minsc became a cultural phenonemon in gaming circles. Kotor1 was enthralling, Kotor2 not so much, but the second wasn't Bioware's game. Neverwinter Nights, the first one mind you, brought the gm into multiplayer rpg sessions.
All in all, Bioware a great developer and I got high hopes for their new mmo. We need some scifi already as the fantasy theme been beaten to death.
Everything boils down from a perspective.
The problem with ME was that it was to much consolish, dumbed down for the masses. A good RPG story element = choices and in mass effect you have hundreds of quests that where meaningless and didn't do justice for the main story.
Sure, you had choices in mass effect but it wasn't enough, i mean visiting new worlds is not cool in mass effect because allot of the worlds are the same with maybe some extra thingy there or a other thingy there but basically it is the same.
You don't have this like in the witcher. That's why the witcher can have a step in the great footsteps of games like icewind dale , Neverwinter nights, BG series.
The RPG genre has been stale for a few years.
The biggest piece of crap that was releashed in the rpg genre and that was praised by many is called oblivion. Another one that will be crap and i think even worser then oblivion is oblivion with guns aka fallout 3.
I just hope bioware doesn't follow the route of bethseda. I think betheda has come from a good company that creates good open ended rpg's to a ridiculous creedy company who now only focus seem to be the consoles and of course the masses which leads to destroying the quality.
Lucky mass effect isn't that bad like oblivion or the upcoming fallout 3.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Bioware unfortunately have progressed worse in the RPG genre with games like mass effect and jade empire ( although jade wasn't bad , it could have been better) I hope they prove themselves again with dragon age and the secret project. If not , well people , we always have a polish developer who created just one game but already created one of the best RPG'S in 5 years.
How can you call Mass Effect bad? That game was a kickass rpg, with topnotch storytelling, allthough cliched. It had it faults, the sidequests got a little repetitive, but other tham that, it was highly enjoyable to play, well made and thought out, putting Bioware up there as one of the real masters of crpgs.
They always delivered on their rpg's, Baldurs Gate was breaking new grounds when it was released, and stands the test of time. It's still played to this day by people, and Minsc became a cultural phenonemon in gaming circles. Kotor1 was enthralling, Kotor2 not so much, but the second wasn't Bioware's game. Neverwinter Nights, the first one mind you, brought the gm into multiplayer rpg sessions.
All in all, Bioware a great developer and I got high hopes for their new mmo. We need some scifi already as the fantasy theme been beaten to death.
Everything boils down from a perspective.
The problem with ME was that it was to much consolish, dumbed down for the masses. A good RPG story element = choices and in mass effect you have hundreds of quests that where meaningless and didn't do justice for the main story.
Sure, you had choices in mass effect but it wasn't enough, i mean visiting new worlds is not cool in mass effect because allot of the worlds are the same with maybe some extra thingy there or a other thingy there but basically it is the same.
You don't have this like in the witcher. That's why the witcher can have a step in the great footsteps of games like icewind dale , Neverwinter nights, BG series.
The RPG genre has been stale for a few years.
The biggest piece of crap that was releashed in the rpg genre and that was praised by many is called oblivion. Another one that will be crap and i think even worser then oblivion is oblivion with guns aka fallout 3.
I just hope bioware doesn't follow the route of bethseda. I think betheda has come from a good company that creates good open ended rpg's to a ridiculous creedy company who now only focus seem to be the consoles and of course the masses which leads to destroying the quality.
Lucky mass effect isn't that bad like oblivion or the upcoming fallout 3.
Somehow the Witcher completely failed to capture me. I love rpgs but the Witcher felt way to linear and mmo-grindy. Oblivion was crap at first, but when the community started making mods and rebalanced the game, something Bethesda completely failed at, the game got fun to play. Still didn't manage to capture the magic Morrowind gave me though. In my opinion that game is one of the best crpg's ever made, easilly in the top5 category. Fallout3 I will keep my judgement till I've played that game. What I've seen so far seems quite promising though.
Comments
One thing I liked about DDO was the voice overs for the quests. I'm not completely against instancing in some cases, like personal type persona quests. I expect to see some of those in this MMO as early as the very begining of the game.
Never claimed everyone wanted it. If you would just open your eyes and read some of the threads that get posted on this very sight you might come to a realization.
I am very proud of being a pre-cu SWG fan, not gonna argue about that. The reason why i typed this post was because, as a consumer, i would like to finally see a mmorpg come out that isn't in the same vain of the almighty WOW. That shit is getting old you know.
I also never said that i think that they should create a SWG2 version mmo. I do believe however that if they make a over instanced, lead you on a string type mmo, they could be flirting with disaster.
Just because it worked for WOW doesn't mean it will work again. I still can't believe that there people like you, that are so mind screwed and zombied from the effects of WOW, that you think raiding and grinding for gear is all there is to an mmorpg.
Let me guess, your first mmo was WOW, right. I really pity someone like you if that's the case. Oh wait, SWG NGE might have been your first, that's why you feathers are in such a ruffle.
Your probably a old pre-cu player who thought there was to much reading in SWG and obtaining a jedi was to hard and took to long. Wait, no old school pre-cu player would think that way, so.
If there's gonna be people like you running rampant in a new Bioware SW mmo, thanks for the warning, so i can stay as far away as possible.
Given Lucas' overall current obsession with the Clone Wars era, I wouldn't be surprised if the game were set in the sunset years of the Old Republic...the Clone Wars.
The advantage of this period is there's lots of action going on. Recall that Governor Bibble of Naboo stated in Episode II that there had not been a general war in a thousand years.
The Clone Wars gives us lots of lightsaber action, as there are plenty of Jedi around (unlike during Episode IV!) and lots of just plain fighting of all types between the Republic and the Separatists.
Now, they could set this game farther back, to the Great Hyperspace War 5000 years before the Battle of Yavin, or the Exar Kun war, or the Mandalorian War, or the Jedi Civil War. That would be KOTOR times.4000 years BBY. Or somehwat later, around the time of Darth Bane and the insitution of the "Rule of Two".
As for a theme park? Why not, but make it possible to do some sandbox ala the Grand Theft Auto series? Can't you do both? SWG had several theme parks. True, some of them were not complete at launch. I'd expect BioWare to avoid this particular trap.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Really, I don't get why there is this group of people who think that sandbox MMOs are destined to be the only true evolution of the MMO. Sandbox games had their chance--and they didn't really go anywhere.
Really, I don't get why there is this group of people who think that sandbox MMOs are destined to be the only true evolution of the MMO. Sandbox games had their chance--and they didn't really go anywhere.
See, your reading but not understanding. when i mentioned that all Bioware had to do was look at SWG, i meant that Sony changed the game to make it more like a WOW clone and now it is deader than ever. It has been that way since 2005.
I was clearly making a statement, that if Bioware follows that path of development and not have sandbox systems, they could, COULD, be flirting with disaster.
As far as insulting you. You know, you can try and learn someone and make them take off the blinders and actually dwell in reality. After that, it's time to take the club out and get hit over the head over and over.
I guess when this game finally comes out, we'll see which one of us needed to be bludgeoned over the head with the reality club.
I think you're also misunderstanding me. I"ve never said this BioWare MMO should be exactly like WoW. But it should definitely not follow down the failed path of the sandbox.
You may be right in that there may never be a game that mimics the success of WoW again. But do you blame developers for apeing it? The smart money is on trying to take ideas from a game style that has at least proven successful, not one that to this day never managed to go anywhere.
Bioware's MMO will essentially be Guild Wars with a Star Wars skin slapped over the top of it. Were the combat systems in KOTOR1 good? Not really. Not to say it was bad but there was nothing that amazing about it.
Think about what made the game good. It was the story telling aspect. Ditto for NWN and Mass Effect. Exact same MO.
Now consider how the Bioware execs, when interviewed, have always stressed their company's strength as being story telling.
Then translate "story telling" to an MMO and what do you get? A completely linear instance heavy themepark fest.
Sorry, but this whole "Bioware is going to revolutionize the MMO industry!" business is the biggest crock ever. Bioware simply can't make a game which will provide the type of player freedom veteran MMOers crave. This will literally be the WoW of sci-fi MMOs and not much else.
Why would they want to cater to a niche market? If i were a developer, i won't want to provide the type of playe rfreedom veteren MMOers crave either.
And why would that be revolutoinize the industry? They would be going back to ancient UO style.
No one has done story right in MMO yet. WOW does hack-n-slash right. Now it is Bioware turn to do story right .. if they can do that .. they will revolutionize the MMO industry. And that is much much better than going back to the dead sandbox model.
Really, I don't get why there is this group of people who think that sandbox MMOs are destined to be the only true evolution of the MMO. Sandbox games had their chance--and they didn't really go anywhere.
Cant say that sandbox games didnt go anywhere its the people playing them too impatient whining what to do next, Not bothering to read what the NPCs are telling you , not learning the skill based system actually planning what you want to be... most people wanted instant gratification , kiddies, and causal gamers, they dont want to work for nothing, they dont like to read, they like to be led like sheep and not take any risks and want to solo everything which makes playing MMOs moot to begin with... no sandbox type games didnt fail it was the type of people playing them that failed. Its getting to the point people have just stopped playing MMOs cause they are going on the path to nowhere. A good number of players are getting tired of seeing the same shit over and over and the game fails. Most of the players in the MMO genre have never even played a sandbox game cause there is hardly any sandbox games out there... now that we finally see some on the way we should see more and more players come play these types of games.
Of course there will be carebear causal games and then the FFA PVP type sandbox games I want my freedom to do what I want in a game and not be led to the next quest or god fobid raid for my gear when it should be the crafter making my gear...
I'm not saying they should. The point of my post was to cement the fact that the KOTOR MMO will most assuredly not be remarkable or innovative in any way whatsoever. It's just gonna be SSDD.
why are any of you excited about starwars? have you been blind to the lucas arts of present? georgy boy ruined ep 1-3, a dumb cartoon and force unleashed. can you really expect starwars mmo to be any good if lucas arts got their hands on it in anyway? bioware has proven time they are fully capable to designing their own lore and a brilliant game to boot (mass effect). they don't need lucas arts in any way, but starwars is a gold mine no matter how awful your game turns out (forced unleashed). bioware will make a good game, it will be different to wow. i just hope it's bioware whos running the show not lucas arts. bioware is not blizzard, they won't create another wow clone because they have already done better.
How can you call Mass Effect bad? That game was a kickass rpg, with topnotch storytelling, allthough cliched. It had it faults, the sidequests got a little repetitive, but other tham that, it was highly enjoyable to play, well made and thought out, putting Bioware up there as one of the real masters of crpgs.
They always delivered on their rpg's, Baldurs Gate was breaking new grounds when it was released, and stands the test of time. It's still played to this day by people, and Minsc became a cultural phenonemon in gaming circles. Kotor1 was enthralling, Kotor2 not so much, but the second wasn't Bioware's game. Neverwinter Nights, the first one mind you, brought the gm into multiplayer rpg sessions.
All in all, Bioware a great developer and I got high hopes for their new mmo. We need some scifi already as the fantasy theme been beaten to death.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Finally, someone else with taste! Agreed 100% although I have little hope Dragon Age will be any good. Obsidian is decent but they need to get the hell away from the NWN2 engine, or atleast do what CDProjekt did and turn it into something not completely horrible.
Again, I have to agree. With all of their talk of creating a great, story driven game, it seems likely that they would want to create a heavily instanced "mmo" with a minimal amount of open world elements.
Personally, I hope we're wrong, because I wouldn't have much interest in this type of "mmo". But, I'm still putting my money on this out come. MMO developers (especially AAA MMO developers) seem less interested in creating "worlds", when they can just create a theme park and fill it with cheap quests and attractions.
Yes, I know who Bioware is and I wouldn't expect them to produce the same surplus of cheap, shitty quests that other MMOs churn out. However, theres only so much you can do with a quest in an MMO. No matter how well written or exciting the quest may be, it's still cheesy when you realize that every other player is running through the exact same, static quest...
Bioware's MMO will essentially be Guild Wars with a Star Wars skin slapped over the top of it. Were the combat systems in KOTOR1 good? Not really. Not to say it was bad but there was nothing that amazing about it.
Think about what made the game good. It was the story telling aspect. Ditto for NWN and Mass Effect. Exact same MO.
Now consider how the Bioware execs, when interviewed, have always stressed their company's strength as being story telling.
Then translate "story telling" to an MMO and what do you get? A completely linear instance heavy themepark fest.
Sorry, but this whole "Bioware is going to revolutionize the MMO industry!" business is the biggest crock ever. Bioware simply can't make a game which will provide the type of player freedom veteran MMOers crave. This will literally be the WoW of sci-fi MMOs and not much else.
Well, the linear story will still be more popular than sandbox. There is also the benefit that it might really piss off the old SWG sandbox fans who have been complaining about their game for the past N years. Hopefully it will piss them off so bad, they avoid this game!
How can you call Mass Effect bad? That game was a kickass rpg, with topnotch storytelling, allthough cliched. It had it faults, the sidequests got a little repetitive, but other tham that, it was highly enjoyable to play, well made and thought out, putting Bioware up there as one of the real masters of crpgs.
They always delivered on their rpg's, Baldurs Gate was breaking new grounds when it was released, and stands the test of time. It's still played to this day by people, and Minsc became a cultural phenonemon in gaming circles. Kotor1 was enthralling, Kotor2 not so much, but the second wasn't Bioware's game. Neverwinter Nights, the first one mind you, brought the gm into multiplayer rpg sessions.
All in all, Bioware a great developer and I got high hopes for their new mmo. We need some scifi already as the fantasy theme been beaten to death.
Everything boils down from a perspective.
The problem with ME was that it was to much consolish, dumbed down for the masses. A good RPG story element = choices and in mass effect you have hundreds of quests that where meaningless and didn't do justice for the main story.
Sure, you had choices in mass effect but it wasn't enough, i mean visiting new worlds is not cool in mass effect because allot of the worlds are the same with maybe some extra thingy there or a other thingy there but basically it is the same.
You don't have this like in the witcher. That's why the witcher can have a step in the great footsteps of games like icewind dale , Neverwinter nights, BG series.
The RPG genre has been stale for a few years.
The biggest piece of crap that was releashed in the rpg genre and that was praised by many is called oblivion. Another one that will be crap and i think even worser then oblivion is oblivion with guns aka fallout 3.
I just hope bioware doesn't follow the route of bethseda. I think betheda has come from a good company that creates good open ended rpg's to a ridiculous creedy company who now only focus seem to be the consoles and of course the masses which leads to destroying the quality.
Lucky mass effect isn't that bad like oblivion or the upcoming fallout 3.
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the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
How can you call Mass Effect bad? That game was a kickass rpg, with topnotch storytelling, allthough cliched. It had it faults, the sidequests got a little repetitive, but other tham that, it was highly enjoyable to play, well made and thought out, putting Bioware up there as one of the real masters of crpgs.
They always delivered on their rpg's, Baldurs Gate was breaking new grounds when it was released, and stands the test of time. It's still played to this day by people, and Minsc became a cultural phenonemon in gaming circles. Kotor1 was enthralling, Kotor2 not so much, but the second wasn't Bioware's game. Neverwinter Nights, the first one mind you, brought the gm into multiplayer rpg sessions.
All in all, Bioware a great developer and I got high hopes for their new mmo. We need some scifi already as the fantasy theme been beaten to death.
Everything boils down from a perspective.
The problem with ME was that it was to much consolish, dumbed down for the masses. A good RPG story element = choices and in mass effect you have hundreds of quests that where meaningless and didn't do justice for the main story.
Sure, you had choices in mass effect but it wasn't enough, i mean visiting new worlds is not cool in mass effect because allot of the worlds are the same with maybe some extra thingy there or a other thingy there but basically it is the same.
You don't have this like in the witcher. That's why the witcher can have a step in the great footsteps of games like icewind dale , Neverwinter nights, BG series.
The RPG genre has been stale for a few years.
The biggest piece of crap that was releashed in the rpg genre and that was praised by many is called oblivion. Another one that will be crap and i think even worser then oblivion is oblivion with guns aka fallout 3.
I just hope bioware doesn't follow the route of bethseda. I think betheda has come from a good company that creates good open ended rpg's to a ridiculous creedy company who now only focus seem to be the consoles and of course the masses which leads to destroying the quality.
Lucky mass effect isn't that bad like oblivion or the upcoming fallout 3.
Somehow the Witcher completely failed to capture me. I love rpgs but the Witcher felt way to linear and mmo-grindy. Oblivion was crap at first, but when the community started making mods and rebalanced the game, something Bethesda completely failed at, the game got fun to play. Still didn't manage to capture the magic Morrowind gave me though. In my opinion that game is one of the best crpg's ever made, easilly in the top5 category. Fallout3 I will keep my judgement till I've played that game. What I've seen so far seems quite promising though.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.