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Why I hate PvP and love Darkfall
I am a crafter, an explorer, a builder. I have killed tens of thousands of creatures. I have played PvP servers--chosen them over non PvP servers in many cases, hoping for a miracle. But every game to date plays fast and loose with PvP, allowing game design--and expecially leveling--to make a mockery of PvP.
I have never killed anyone in PvP. I have never even attacked anyone in PvP. I have no particular desire to do so. I have been killed a lot, however, generally before I knew I was attacked. And yet, I have tried out every PvP server that seemed reasonable. And why? Because of the promise inherant in PvP--the promise to add the spice of danger of the unknown.
I am content being prey--or would be, were the contest on any kind of even footing. Lack of responsibilty for PvP has always been one problem--a trivial one in my mind. Much more serious was the utter inability by any sort of action on one's part to protect oneself, short of becoming better at PvP than everyone else or hiding out in a safe zone. PvP was always far too easy for the aggressor and all too hopeless for the would-be prey.
Among the biggest problems were stealth--invisibility in particular. Leveling, and knowledge of leveling was another. I would describe my typical PvP encounter as being attacked from behind by a level 60 rogue with maxed out armor where my level 12 character was dead before I knew I was attacked and I only knew my attacker's name by scrolling through the combat log. Wow, is that a fun recipe for a game or what? And yet, it is precisely the recipe found in every game to date.
Darkfall has introduced true stealth to a game by removing tags and allowing natural camouflage. They have removed the totally artificial skill-less stealth of invisibility. They have reduced the range of game-mechanic differences between players that ridiculous leveling and weapon/armor differential brought. They have further reduced the effect of such differences by making the player largely blind to them.
By introducing full loot they have given at least some point to every PvP encounter, as well as creating risk to the aggressor. This would probably be my biggest gripe about EVERY PvP encounter I have ever had--there was never any risk for the aggressor. Heck, there wasn't any gain either---it was all very, very pointless.
The entire context of the gameworld in DF attempts to bring purpose to PvP. This is not the only game to do this. Generally speaking, games have provided worlds with meaningful PvP warfare between PvP guilds--but DF may be the first game that gives a typical husband and wife (as I play) a chance to fully explore a gameworld with constant deadly risk and yet some expectation of surviving through their own actions.
PvP provides a spice to games--even to the prey--that nothing else can provide. The more resources prey have, the more challenge is presented to the aggressors. But my experience from other games is that a solid majority of PvPers do not want challenge--they WANT to be the level 60 Rogue ruining a couple's evening. DF would seem to provide a haven for serious-minded prey and competent, competitive PvPers. I have no problem dying to a player whose skill I can admire--but dying to anyone with the time to max out a character is pretty pointless.
Phyrndyl of Rheny; republished from Darkfall Forums by request
Comments
I've tried to explain to a few people that an open pvp game is actually really fun for players who don't enjoy pvp, it adds danger, excitement, and makes being in a guild and grouping that much more important. A lot of PKs travel in small groups or solo. Large guilds focused on PvE and their player cities will be able to stomp most "evil" players because the lack of their size. It's the zerger factioneers that pose a threat to them, when they siege their city and try to take over the area.
There is so much to offer in DFO, but a lot of people have troubles looking over the open pvp system and full loot. I know it sounds scary, but you'll wise up and carry less on you keeping your prescious items safe in the bank. And when someone tries to gank you and you best them or run away you'll be like "Whoa, what a rush!". Freedom is everything, DFO is freedom.
www.scarybadguys.com
Yes, nice post. I think it is true there is no real risk/reward anymore in todays mmorpg's apart from games such as EvE. Risk/Reward gives a better sense of purpose and more of a thrill when the fight is on whether your the aggressor OR the defender.
Nice post. I am interested, and starting to look forward to, every aspect of Darkfall except the PVP. I agree with you that PVP adds a needed affect to games, i just hate the gank meisters who play up people far weaker then them in games because it makes them cool.
I do like that Darfall has made thier PVP faction based. Yes you can kill anyone anywhere but it is really frowned upon to kill your own faction. They say there could be some heavy consequences for it.
If Darkfall delivers on what it is saying it will have it could be an incredible game, and for all that i will take the gankers too.
So you enjoy being a sheep? And you enjoy being ganked constantly? Then yes, you will enjoy this game.
So, you haven't read his post at all?
Great post... it's exactly my same experience and feelings. I always choose PVP because it's the real thing, although I'm terrible at it, but then I feel really like adventuring in a dangerous land.
And yes rogues in WOW is the most stupid idea I have ever seen in PVP.
Great post, last game I played where i enjoyed the pvp system was lineage 2. It was wide open but with conseqences. I never really participated in the pvp, but liked it was there, and on occasion I had to defend myself. It added drama and made the environment unpredictable.
The key to good meaningful pvp is keeping a balance between risk/reward. Otherwise your playing a fps.
Excellent post. Well thought out and well written. I agree to a certain degree that PvE players will have some advantages that they don't currently experience in other games, specifically the features you mentioned. However, I think you and many others underestimate the ingenuity of the player base. Despite the developers' descriptions of the game, it's feature and everyone's interpretation on how the system should work, nobody really knows how the dynamics of this game will work until you have a community populating the world and acting within its environment.
There will be a certain percentage of the population that will make it thier mission in life to kill anyone they can as many times as they can at any place within the game world that it is possible to do so. And they will group together in order to protect their ability to do that and play in that manner. It is not the individual ganker that will create strife for PvEers, it's the squads of murders that will roam the countryside searching for victims.
Another thing that seems to have been overlooked is the possibilty for hacks and third party tools that allow players to overcome the limitations the game has placed on identifying potential enemies. Is Aventurine going to be able to control this? How? What will be the effect of these cheats on the community within the game?
There are a lot of questions that will not be answered until the game is actually released, assuming it releases in a playable state. One thing I really believe is certain is that PvEers aren't going to have it as good as many of you believe, but that is just my opinion. I reserve the right to be wrong.
I agree that until it launches that no one knows how bad or good they will have it but I can say with certainty that it will be better than the majority of the games out there at the moment as far as PvE on PvP servers. You either get PvP relatively hassle free or PvE relatively hassle free. AoC (Age of Conan) is a good example of how not to do it lol. You try and PvE on a PvP server there and your gank relentlessly without much of anything you can do about it. What do the Gankers stand to lose? Nada. Even if you could get a guild together to protect you it still wouldn't do much good because the griefers can continue and keep dying till they get through because they have nothing to lose. Those that complain about it are told if they wanted to PvE they shouldn't have rolled on a PvP server and if they complain about low pop on a PvE server there told they should have rolled on a PvP server by the same people lol.
Full Loot is a deterrent and a reason to PvP. Factions will limit the killing within ones own faction. 1 Char per server per account will limit it even more. Will they stop the Gankers/Griefers? No. Then again they don't want to, they want FFA PvP to be what it should be. The majority will gank/grief when there is no punishment or any thing to lose because it's funny to aggrivate people some times when your extremely bored. Or they may think it's the kewl thing to do, or maybe they just did it because they were throwing a fir because they didn't get an item they wanted ect ect. With what DarkFall is planning on doing this will limit the griefing/Ganking to the hard core gankers/griefers. They are in the minority and that doesn't show in other MMO's because they lack the essential "World Laws" that DarkFall will. RvR and Factions work on similar principles but Factions lacks the limitations of a true RvR game.
In real life you may do as you wish but there are repricussions for your actions. The same applies in DarkFall. The repricussions will keep it down considerably more than in other MMO's. I believe the ganking/Griefing will be even less than that of UO (UO pre Trammel). In UO there was only 1 race and if you attacked, killed, stole, looted from any player you were a criminal creating more griefers/gankers because people like to pvp and ect. With DarkFall you can PvP without becoming a criminal by simply killing ect those outside your faction. This in essence will allow for a much more diversified world and community. There will be gankers/griefers and those against them also there will be factions for PvP and there will be plenty of room for PvE. This is just my prediction though based on past experience and the proposed game mechanics.
So, you haven't read his post at all?
He said he is content being prey. And he will be prey a lot.
So, you haven't read his post at all?
He said he is content being prey. And he will be prey a lot.
I enjoy being prey too, i enjoy being hunted and to outwit and run away from a superior character. What i don't enjoy is being turned into a sitting duck because i haven't spent X hours of my life, to get to level Y and get gear set Z.
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
Great post OP.
Whether you agree or not with him on being prey, it offer an insight of what real PvP games are all about.
So, you haven't read his post at all?
He said he is content being prey. And he will be prey a lot.
You seem to be under the false assumption that this game will be nothing but a nonstop gank fest. Reality makes this fact of yours seem false. Neither of us know how much ganking there will be in Darkfall, and no one seriously following the game (as the OP surely is) pretends they won't die. But to be prey a lot? Do you realize how difficult the life of an outlaw is going to be? Or do you just assume you'll be freely killing everyone you see and no one will ever stop you?
Darkfall Travelogues!
So, you haven't read his post at all?
He said he is content being prey. And he will be prey a lot.
You seem to be under the false assumption that this game will be nothing but a nonstop gank fest. Reality makes this fact of yours seem false. Neither of us know how much ganking there will be in Darkfall, and no one seriously following the game (as the OP surely is) pretends they won't die. But to be prey a lot? Do you realize how difficult the life of an outlaw is going to be? Or do you just assume you'll be freely killing everyone you see and no one will ever stop you?
I'm not necessarily taking ghoul's side on this, but you said it yourself, we don't really know how much ganking there is going to be. Try and envision day 1 of release. Thousands of us noobs scrambling around trying to do noob quests and avoid being killed by other players (in our own faction) just getting their jollies.
And there will be those within their own faction who will kill their own and not give a rip about the consequences. If you don't believe me, take a look at the Darkfall forums, there are quite a few who admit to it.
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=70860
It could be weeks before some semblance of order actually takes hold as the player base spreads out and guilds establish themselves and put some structure in place for protecting its membership. Dieing a lot is probably inevitable, at least at the beginning.
For those who want to promote Darkfall as a game for all tastes, I think it will disappoint many who want little or no part of PvP.
Thank you OP for a brilliant post!
Amazing and true post OP thank you!
As a PvEer.. in Darkfall everything you ear will be an actually acomplishment...
In WoW and others, It takes only one thing to achieve anything.. time... if you spend enough time you will get it.. in Darkfall you will actually have to use player ability.. the world is a real wild west,where choices and options matter.
Remember Old School Ultima Online
very nice post, i to am a PvEer and as soon as the game releases me and a few friends are just grabbing the skills we want to work on, getting a small boat big enough for 4 or 5 and setting sail... just to explore and kind of live on our own for awhile, anyone interetsed just pm me on the darkfall forums, my username is the same as on here.
You seem to be under the false assumption that this game will be nothing but a nonstop gank fest. Reality makes this fact of yours seem false. Neither of us know how much ganking there will be in Darkfall, and no one seriously following the game (as the OP surely is) pretends they won't die. But to be prey a lot? Do you realize how difficult the life of an outlaw is going to be? Or do you just assume you'll be freely killing everyone you see and no one will ever stop you?
UO had consequences, and it still became a giant gankfest. I see no reason why this will be any different.
there will be some sort of order... since you are neutral with everyone in the begining, the more of your own kind you kill, the more your alliance goes down, and soon you wont even be able to enter your own main city without being raped by all the guards, so main cities wont be so bad, plus they say this is gonna be the biggest map in all MMO games or somthing, so even with 10,000 players per server there will still be ALOT of space, so its not like your gonna run into someone every 10 min when your exploring somewhere
You seem to be under the false assumption that this game will be nothing but a nonstop gank fest. Reality makes this fact of yours seem false. Neither of us know how much ganking there will be in Darkfall, and no one seriously following the game (as the OP surely is) pretends they won't die. But to be prey a lot? Do you realize how difficult the life of an outlaw is going to be? Or do you just assume you'll be freely killing everyone you see and no one will ever stop you?
UO had consequences, and it still became a giant gankfest. I see no reason why this will be any different.
The problem with UO was the only way to PvP and kill was for someone to become a criminal/Murderer. In DarkFall the Faction system allows you to kill some penalty free and some with penalty. Thats a huge difference than from what UO had. Human, Dwarf and Mirdain can kill all other races outside there faction without penalty so these other races will likely be there target, Orc and Mihirim can kill anyone but each other without a penalty so others will more than likely be there target. Alfar can kill anyone besides other Alfar without penalty so these will likely be there target.
Now aside from that mechanic I am not sure what UO I played but Ultima Online I played for 9 years and had a chars on 5 servers ranging from crafters to pvp'rs and I don't remember it being one giant gank fest. There were gankers and griefers this happens with any MMORPG with FFA PvP but it was far from a giant gank fest. The only giant gank fest MMORPG I remember was AoC and thats because there is no penalty for death or for attacking anyone.
Ive played alot of PVP games also where I had zero chance of competing.....To me it doesnt matter if they kill me or not........The fun of the game for me isnt killing another player but simply just to play the game.......Many F2P PVP games make you try to feel that you need to buy stuff in the item shop to compete but id just as soon die than go that route.......Like the OP most PVP games I have played I ran into players that were many levels higher than me and of course they have the best gear so there is no chance they can lose......my final theory with most PVPers is they like PVP as long as there is no chance they can lose.....I dont think many like PVP where they are the underdog or have no chance.
You seem to be under the false assumption that this game will be nothing but a nonstop gank fest. Reality makes this fact of yours seem false. Neither of us know how much ganking there will be in Darkfall, and no one seriously following the game (as the OP surely is) pretends they won't die. But to be prey a lot? Do you realize how difficult the life of an outlaw is going to be? Or do you just assume you'll be freely killing everyone you see and no one will ever stop you?
UO had consequences, and it still became a giant gankfest. I see no reason why this will be any different.
The problem with UO was the only way to PvP and kill was for someone to become a criminal/Murderer. In DarkFall the Faction system allows you to kill some penalty free and some with penalty. Thats a huge difference than from what UO had. Human, Dwarf and Mirdain can kill all other races outside there faction without penalty so these other races will likely be there target, Orc and Mihirim can kill anyone but each other without a penalty so others will more than likely be there target. Alfar can kill anyone besides other Alfar without penalty so these will likely be there target.
Now aside from that mechanic I am not sure what UO I played but Ultima Online I played for 9 years and had a chars on 5 servers ranging from crafters to pvp'rs and I don't remember it being one giant gank fest. There were gankers and griefers this happens with any MMORPG with FFA PvP but it was far from a giant gank fest. The only giant gank fest MMORPG I remember was AoC and thats because there is no penalty for death or for attacking anyone.
The only place that this game will be a gankfest is in the starter noob areas. People with freshly rolled characters with no good equipment and nothing to lose. Maybe feeling out the UI and controls before they get serious or maybe just being punks. It will calm down as people start investing more time in their character. This pvp system and seige reminds me of Lineage 2 but with the rvr like DAOC.
OP:
Wow, have you ever played the game so you can confirm all of this? Otherwise all I hear is Hype hype hype which will make people go Cry cry cry later
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Trolls make such silly posts.
As a test of your thesis let's discuss something about ANY game in development at all based on actual knowledge. Really, any game, any hard knowledge. Let's see how much fun these forums can be if we stick to cold hard knowledge.
Here, I'll go first...
Umm...how's the weather by you?
On a vaguely related note, much of the world seems to think they know a hell of a lot (pun intended) about what happens after death based on absolutely NO knowledge. I will stipulate that they are clearly clueless. Just in case you need a supporting argument....
Phyrndyl of Rheny