The two biggest steps back (IMO) were questing and instances. With those changes, MMOs moved from an open world feel to a static, single player RPG feel. True, many of us hated the endless mob grinds and the masses of players fighting over who could camp those mobs, but there had to be other solutions.
Sadly true as it may be, a game without quests and instances will never reach the 10mill mark and thats not what developers want. For me the game closest to a pure sandbox is EvE, i havent played pre-CU SWG so i cant comment on that.
The only companies that might want to experiment with a game that will get them less users but much more loyalty and a sense of achievement at having built a unique game are probably CCP and Blizzard(yea, they have the resources to pull it off). CCP can do it with the in-development World of Darkness MMO and Blizzard could do it with its upcoming MMO. Chances are, someone else will pull it off before them but who knows
I'll definately keep my eye on World of Darkness. Interesting setting and some potential there. And you're probably right about Blizzard. If they're smart, they'll do something drastically different with their next MMO. It may seem like a lay-up for them to just churn out WOW 2.0, but if they do, I guarantee the legions of WOW fans would get bored fairly quickly.
Originally posted by Tatum I'll definately keep my eye on World of Darkness. Interesting setting and some potential there. And you're probably right about Blizzard. If they're smart, they'll do something drastically different with their next MMO. It may seem like a lay-up for them to just churn out WOW 2.0, but if they do, I guarantee the legions of WOW fans would get bored fairly quickly.
Like they have with WoW in the past 4 years? Let's face it, WoW is a mediocre game filled with mediocre gamers and they'll line up in droves to play another watered down Blizzard crap fest just because it's got some new eye candy. Watch the sales of WotLK, it'll show that these poor brainless fools will pay over and over again for the same old crap. MMO's will continue to follow the WoW template of low risk = high reward just because that's what Johnny Casual-n00b is willing to toss down his twenty bucks a month to play. Until the WoW set find a new diversion and the MMO genre finally settles down to where it was 4 years ago we are going to be stuck with consequence free, hand holding crap fests.
Sadly the OP is correct that the last major shift in MMO technology was 4-5 years ago. However there is some hope on the horizon.
MMOs made a large leap in 2003/2004 in the complexity of the underlying logic and robust interactive nature of the worlds; however, from a developer and publisher standpoint, this made them hard to maintain and any expanded content without the original 'visionaries' was nearly impossible.
Even as 'basic' as some might see the JTL portion of SWG, the coding was just far ahead of the average developers, so when the original designers left SOE, it took years for upcoming and existing developers to even comprehend the code well enough to adjust it let alone make enhancements to it. (And this is not about the original developers not commenting code well, but using advanced concepts that were ahead of the curve at the time.)
SWG also introduced a brilliant 'zoning' system, so that planets could be massive in terrain (and dynamic) and still allow players to cross zones seamlessly. (Many times players are in different zones even though they are standing by their fellow group members and different zone servers are handling each character even though they are communicating to create the world in a seamless fashion.
So with these advances(used as a couple of examples) in SWG and EVE and a few less successful games, how did everthing go backwards?
The next generation MMO developers turned to more robust engine creation to help in the automation of creating the MMO world, and focused on trying to bring a new generation of graphical abilities to the MMOs. On paper this probably seemed like the right direction, but time went to graphics and handling of the visuals of the world with little time left for both content and 'depth' of content. MMOs players on average would rather realism in the mechanics of the game and depth of logic and interaction than great graphics.
So in this quest for the next generation, graphics and other 'newer' engine models were focused on and the core logic and structure of content was left behind due to time constraints.
In this timeframe other things were happening, like WoW. It was fairly bug free, a solid engine with ok graphics (not trying to be real), and provided hand-held game content. This brought MMOs to a new level and generation of player, and was great for the time period, as non-MMO and D&D type players usually found themselves lost in the SandBox and more complex games.
Also WoW was a good model of making money, by not having to deal with conceptual logic outside the designed game's quested mechanics.So even with games like Vanguard and others wanting to have more of a SandBox, they found themselves hitting timelines and sliding back into an easier pattern of standard quests, levels and classes that are all controlled.
So the industry with the existing 'model' and engines continue down this road, as they know it is easy to do and make money.
One of the designers of SWG wrote about this a long time ago about the depth you get with an open skill based system and a pre-definded class and level based system. The class/level system is easy to design for and produce consistent calculations with a lot less logic.
Game publishers developers are out to make money, more overhead that they 'think' they can skip and the consumers won't mind is discarded and what you end up with is the current generation of MMOs that don't even want to try to be 'good', just ok and be produced cheaply.
The hope on the horizon is the advances in MMO specific engines, that are designed to handle the graphics, world, etc and let the developers spend much more time on designing 'content' and logic to the game, and fitting these dynamics back into an MMO. Also as the consumer market is moving to broadband and games are not being designed to work on dial up, there is more room for server to client communications and this allows more detailed combat and other types of transactional models.
Network bandwidth and server power are big factors with large customer bases. Take the pre-cu SWG for example. When two (or more) players were in combat, every attack had to compute approximately 50 defensive stats on the target, randomize several aspects to the 'roll' of the attack, and then once the attack was completed, had to assess the 'results' of the attack.
The detail level of this combat system is like nothing else in the industry before or since. So when a player would attack, it had to compute what their damage could be with a staggering amount of factors and then also evaluate specifically the targets stats down to what specific body part was hit and how well protected that part was on the body, and in just the armor there were another 10-20 calculations based on damage type, and damage outcome to what pool. So even though this made combat in SWG outstanding from a player standpoint, because if your bracer got blown you could take a beating just because that bracer would get a few extra hits and was only doing partial protection. This is why two players dueling would NEVER be the same fight, no matter what their skills or armor were, as there were so many variables to the fight, and this extensive evaluation of combat also gave players the ability to react in a battle and compensate or go for the kill in a different way.
So from a programmers standpoint, you have a lot of calculations for each attack and this takes both client and server power, and bandwidth to convey all this information to the surrounding players as most fights were tons of players, not just a duel.
When SWG moved to the CU, they decided all this complexity was not needed and could streamline the game and make it easier to program for if they removed it. However, they failed to realize how much this affect the combat of the game and how important it was to players that never even though about it, but could just feel things were different and something was missing.
The CU turned piece by piece armor into a base armor for the entire character and no longer cared where the player was hit, it also did away with some damage types and many of the player built up combat stats in the calculations. With the NGE, they removed even more, so there was only energy and kinetic damage, with one base armor and one 'pool' to affect, so programming the NGE system was child's play compared to the original SWG and this was suppose to allow developers to add more content to the game and features. This failed as the content and features were few and far between and what the players lost was not worth what little the NGE tried to give them.
Pay attention to devleopment companies that aren't scared of 'sandbox' and non-constrained skill systems and the complexity it involves, and hope that with some good MMO engines out there like Hero and even NCSoft's in house engine, they will spend time on logic and game mechanics that involved content and players instead of making sure an NPC isn't getting stuck on a rock and how to make the rock pretty.
It is not unreasonable to demand more combat complexity, and this doesn't mean even FPS combat, as even the newest MMO with FPS combat is less complex than SWG's original combat system because of the simplistic logic an calculations of the current combat systems.
As gamers people should be making their voices heard, and demand complex and even more interactive worlds, even if some of the constraints have to be given up by the developers that want to find 'balance', as MMOs like the real world should have some imperfection.
Here are my suggestions for any developers that might happen by:
1) No Classes or generic levels. When you are born you choose what you become and can change your path. - Like human minds expect a 'world' to be. Also you should not have ariticial numbers that show your 'cards' to other players as to your level or determine what content is available to you. In pre-cu SWG, all content was available to everyone, even if they had used all their skill points, as even lower end conten game some risk and 'reward' appropriately.
2) Player created content. This goes from crafting to housing all the way to even mild scripting that allows users to create things in the world. Players have to be a part of the world.
3) Limited instancing - Camping was bad, but this can be gotten around by creating 'exception' instances, or increase mobs/difficulty to discourage it. Even in the original SWG, there were 'few' AFK players and campers, as there was a risk to do this. Just run a high level NPC into the area by another player or randomly and they are dead, have decay, etc etc. This is also what made housing and camps important, and more like the real world.
4) Real world risk/reward. This means decay but also a real economy based on consumables. When you have no risk in a game, you feel no sense of reward or have nothing you want to protect. With decay or other penalties you have pride and also work to protect what you 'own' in the world.
5) Forget Quest only designs. Give players the ability to have journeys and create their own adventures or use pre-defined stories, but don't force players to grind in combat or run goofy quests that are kill or delivery only like 99% of the MMOs now offer. (Go look at the original SWG, most players headed out on an adventure without an in game story to send them there, there are ways to create POIs that attract these journeys without static content.)
6) Adding to 5, randomness, randomness, randomness... People missing walking or riding on Tatoonie and having a high level WItch Doctor Tusken blow them off their bike. This made things interesting, created adventures for people that needed rescuing or help and created 'stories' about their journey they would tell other players in game. It was so simple, but marvelous.
Agent Smith from the Matrix movie said it best when he talked about the perfect world the first Matrix was, and human minds didn't accept it as real because it was too easy and not real. MMOs need risk to have reality and reward. This is why there is so much passion for SWG players, as they felt like they lived in the world, and didn't just sign in to an artificial place to meet friends. They owned houses, prize weapons, had amazing stories, and also the risks that were necessary to make them accept it as 'real'.
(A touch of reality is always necessary or you might as well go play pac-man - WAR developers, are you listening? If people want a game with free new lives and no chance of damage they play pac-man or Halo, not an MMO and certainly not a world you want them to 'live' in to support your game.)
I beg to differ. When was the last time you played it? I suggest you check out the trial. If you haven't played in a while, your account might even be active.
People keep saying its changed yet I came back to play it one one of them come back things the other month and it's still a boring generic barren world with ugly character models.
Originally posted by thenetavenge SWG also introduced a brilliant 'zoning' system, so that planets could be massive in terrain (and dynamic) and still allow players to cross zones seamlessly. (Many times players are in different zones even though they are standing by their fellow group members and different zone servers are handling each character even though they are communicating to create the world in a seamless fashion.
Hello? This was around for years before SWG. I hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but Asheron's Call was the pinacle of MMO's. It featured a seemless world. Yes there were portals but most places, besides islands, were reachable on foot.
A dynamic skills system where the more you used an ability the better it got? Yep AC had that.
No classes and the freedom to choose what skills you wanted? Yep, AC had that too.
The only thing AC was lacking was a melee hotbar. Melee was all auto attack.
Asheron's Call was, I believe, also the first game to introduce player housing and trophies.((I've been informed that UO was actually the first with player housing.)) Then Guild Housing. Then a player run market place.
Quests all meant something. There weren't a lot of them, but some of them spanned the globe and had several steps to complete. Many of them required more than one party of players working together to complete. Yes, sometimes everything went haywire, but that was the way of it and it added yet another learning curve to the game.
Turbine screwed the pooch with AC2, by throwing away everything that made AC great. I only hope that one day they put all they have learned from AC, DDO, and LoTRO into making AC3.
Turbine screwed the pooch with AC2, by throwing away everything that made AC great. I only hope that one day they put all they have learned from AC, DDO, and LoTRO into making AC3.
While I never played the original, I would be interested in playing a 3rd one that followed the core design of the original but brought it up to modern MMO standards.
There certainly was a lot of innovation and variety that came out in 2003/2004, and I agree, since WOW appeared its influence has been very negative on the market as a whole.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I know that this isn't likely to happen, but I'd love to see a new MMO along the lines of UO/AC/SWG, with dated 3D graphics and a massive game world. The foundation is there, the player base is there (believe it or not), and theres a large hole in the genre, right where a game like this would fit in. It may be hard to believe, but there is a large portion of MMO vets who are willing to sacrifice graphics for a complex game design.
I tried Vanguard again right before the trial came out. I kept hearing how great it had come, etc.
I tried it with a very open mind, but was very disappointed. The game looked as I remembered it: blande and uninspired. I still got poor FPS in a lot of areas (my rig is decent...its not my hardware), the animation looked wooden and choppy. It felt very unpolished...almost like it was made by a bunch of college roommates or something.
I'll try the trial out since you say it has better models but I can't imagine even that changing my opinion of the game that much.
Contrary to popular belief WAR is pretty innovative.
Flame on if you wish but here are some innovations that definitely should (and probably will) become the staple of any future succesful MMO.
1) Public Quests - this revolutionizes open world PvE, absolutely
2) Tome of Knowledge - a wonder no game before had something like this (and no, it is not a simple achievement tracking system)
3) Trophies - customization beyond character creation screen, unconnected with stat-bearing gear
In addition there are some other innovations that I really wouldn't say should find a place in every game or are a quantum leap forward but they are there.
Other games in the "WoW era" did bring some other interesting innovations. AoC's mounted combat, for example or the attempt to introduce RTS-style player built cities... Hmm.. can't think of anything else really - oh Tabula Rasa's mob faction - this idea could really come into its own in Aion's PvPvE system. I like the idea of fighting against a huge mob civ-style AI controlling armies of mobs as well as their resources and bases.
So it's really not that bleak. Imo the majority of people griping that there is no innovation in the genre are paradoxically advocating a return to the very oldest MMO concept - that of a sandbox. I'm not saying that sandbox is a flawed idea at its core... it is just that imo people should be a bit more open-minded and ready to accept new ideas. Imo the UO vs EQ or "themepark" vs "sandbox" days are loong behind us.
There are some quite interesting new developments recently and it would be a pity to miss them because you're looking at things with the same glasses you wore in 1999.
For example, it is ridiculous how some people are hailing Darkfall as "revolutionary" or "innovative" while it is quite obvious that it is a UO clone done in 3D... and UO released in 1998. I'm not saying it is bound to be a bad game because of it, quite the contrary, I can't wait to try it out when it finally releases, but let us not confuse the issues here.
Comments
Sadly true as it may be, a game without quests and instances will never reach the 10mill mark and thats not what developers want. For me the game closest to a pure sandbox is EvE, i havent played pre-CU SWG so i cant comment on that.
The only companies that might want to experiment with a game that will get them less users but much more loyalty and a sense of achievement at having built a unique game are probably CCP and Blizzard(yea, they have the resources to pull it off). CCP can do it with the in-development World of Darkness MMO and Blizzard could do it with its upcoming MMO. Chances are, someone else will pull it off before them but who knows
My Brute - Dare to challenge?
I'll definately keep my eye on World of Darkness. Interesting setting and some potential there. And you're probably right about Blizzard. If they're smart, they'll do something drastically different with their next MMO. It may seem like a lay-up for them to just churn out WOW 2.0, but if they do, I guarantee the legions of WOW fans would get bored fairly quickly.
Like they have with WoW in the past 4 years? Let's face it, WoW is a mediocre game filled with mediocre gamers and they'll line up in droves to play another watered down Blizzard crap fest just because it's got some new eye candy. Watch the sales of WotLK, it'll show that these poor brainless fools will pay over and over again for the same old crap. MMO's will continue to follow the WoW template of low risk = high reward just because that's what Johnny Casual-n00b is willing to toss down his twenty bucks a month to play. Until the WoW set find a new diversion and the MMO genre finally settles down to where it was 4 years ago we are going to be stuck with consequence free, hand holding crap fests.
Sadly the OP is correct that the last major shift in MMO technology was 4-5 years ago. However there is some hope on the horizon.
MMOs made a large leap in 2003/2004 in the complexity of the underlying logic and robust interactive nature of the worlds; however, from a developer and publisher standpoint, this made them hard to maintain and any expanded content without the original 'visionaries' was nearly impossible.
Even as 'basic' as some might see the JTL portion of SWG, the coding was just far ahead of the average developers, so when the original designers left SOE, it took years for upcoming and existing developers to even comprehend the code well enough to adjust it let alone make enhancements to it. (And this is not about the original developers not commenting code well, but using advanced concepts that were ahead of the curve at the time.)
SWG also introduced a brilliant 'zoning' system, so that planets could be massive in terrain (and dynamic) and still allow players to cross zones seamlessly. (Many times players are in different zones even though they are standing by their fellow group members and different zone servers are handling each character even though they are communicating to create the world in a seamless fashion.
So with these advances(used as a couple of examples) in SWG and EVE and a few less successful games, how did everthing go backwards?
The next generation MMO developers turned to more robust engine creation to help in the automation of creating the MMO world, and focused on trying to bring a new generation of graphical abilities to the MMOs. On paper this probably seemed like the right direction, but time went to graphics and handling of the visuals of the world with little time left for both content and 'depth' of content. MMOs players on average would rather realism in the mechanics of the game and depth of logic and interaction than great graphics.
So in this quest for the next generation, graphics and other 'newer' engine models were focused on and the core logic and structure of content was left behind due to time constraints.
In this timeframe other things were happening, like WoW. It was fairly bug free, a solid engine with ok graphics (not trying to be real), and provided hand-held game content. This brought MMOs to a new level and generation of player, and was great for the time period, as non-MMO and D&D type players usually found themselves lost in the SandBox and more complex games.
Also WoW was a good model of making money, by not having to deal with conceptual logic outside the designed game's quested mechanics.So even with games like Vanguard and others wanting to have more of a SandBox, they found themselves hitting timelines and sliding back into an easier pattern of standard quests, levels and classes that are all controlled.
So the industry with the existing 'model' and engines continue down this road, as they know it is easy to do and make money.
One of the designers of SWG wrote about this a long time ago about the depth you get with an open skill based system and a pre-definded class and level based system. The class/level system is easy to design for and produce consistent calculations with a lot less logic.
Game publishers developers are out to make money, more overhead that they 'think' they can skip and the consumers won't mind is discarded and what you end up with is the current generation of MMOs that don't even want to try to be 'good', just ok and be produced cheaply.
The hope on the horizon is the advances in MMO specific engines, that are designed to handle the graphics, world, etc and let the developers spend much more time on designing 'content' and logic to the game, and fitting these dynamics back into an MMO. Also as the consumer market is moving to broadband and games are not being designed to work on dial up, there is more room for server to client communications and this allows more detailed combat and other types of transactional models.
Network bandwidth and server power are big factors with large customer bases. Take the pre-cu SWG for example. When two (or more) players were in combat, every attack had to compute approximately 50 defensive stats on the target, randomize several aspects to the 'roll' of the attack, and then once the attack was completed, had to assess the 'results' of the attack.
The detail level of this combat system is like nothing else in the industry before or since. So when a player would attack, it had to compute what their damage could be with a staggering amount of factors and then also evaluate specifically the targets stats down to what specific body part was hit and how well protected that part was on the body, and in just the armor there were another 10-20 calculations based on damage type, and damage outcome to what pool. So even though this made combat in SWG outstanding from a player standpoint, because if your bracer got blown you could take a beating just because that bracer would get a few extra hits and was only doing partial protection. This is why two players dueling would NEVER be the same fight, no matter what their skills or armor were, as there were so many variables to the fight, and this extensive evaluation of combat also gave players the ability to react in a battle and compensate or go for the kill in a different way.
So from a programmers standpoint, you have a lot of calculations for each attack and this takes both client and server power, and bandwidth to convey all this information to the surrounding players as most fights were tons of players, not just a duel.
When SWG moved to the CU, they decided all this complexity was not needed and could streamline the game and make it easier to program for if they removed it. However, they failed to realize how much this affect the combat of the game and how important it was to players that never even though about it, but could just feel things were different and something was missing.
The CU turned piece by piece armor into a base armor for the entire character and no longer cared where the player was hit, it also did away with some damage types and many of the player built up combat stats in the calculations. With the NGE, they removed even more, so there was only energy and kinetic damage, with one base armor and one 'pool' to affect, so programming the NGE system was child's play compared to the original SWG and this was suppose to allow developers to add more content to the game and features. This failed as the content and features were few and far between and what the players lost was not worth what little the NGE tried to give them.
Pay attention to devleopment companies that aren't scared of 'sandbox' and non-constrained skill systems and the complexity it involves, and hope that with some good MMO engines out there like Hero and even NCSoft's in house engine, they will spend time on logic and game mechanics that involved content and players instead of making sure an NPC isn't getting stuck on a rock and how to make the rock pretty.
It is not unreasonable to demand more combat complexity, and this doesn't mean even FPS combat, as even the newest MMO with FPS combat is less complex than SWG's original combat system because of the simplistic logic an calculations of the current combat systems.
As gamers people should be making their voices heard, and demand complex and even more interactive worlds, even if some of the constraints have to be given up by the developers that want to find 'balance', as MMOs like the real world should have some imperfection.
Here are my suggestions for any developers that might happen by:
1) No Classes or generic levels. When you are born you choose what you become and can change your path. - Like human minds expect a 'world' to be. Also you should not have ariticial numbers that show your 'cards' to other players as to your level or determine what content is available to you. In pre-cu SWG, all content was available to everyone, even if they had used all their skill points, as even lower end conten game some risk and 'reward' appropriately.
2) Player created content. This goes from crafting to housing all the way to even mild scripting that allows users to create things in the world. Players have to be a part of the world.
3) Limited instancing - Camping was bad, but this can be gotten around by creating 'exception' instances, or increase mobs/difficulty to discourage it. Even in the original SWG, there were 'few' AFK players and campers, as there was a risk to do this. Just run a high level NPC into the area by another player or randomly and they are dead, have decay, etc etc. This is also what made housing and camps important, and more like the real world.
4) Real world risk/reward. This means decay but also a real economy based on consumables. When you have no risk in a game, you feel no sense of reward or have nothing you want to protect. With decay or other penalties you have pride and also work to protect what you 'own' in the world.
5) Forget Quest only designs. Give players the ability to have journeys and create their own adventures or use pre-defined stories, but don't force players to grind in combat or run goofy quests that are kill or delivery only like 99% of the MMOs now offer. (Go look at the original SWG, most players headed out on an adventure without an in game story to send them there, there are ways to create POIs that attract these journeys without static content.)
6) Adding to 5, randomness, randomness, randomness... People missing walking or riding on Tatoonie and having a high level WItch Doctor Tusken blow them off their bike. This made things interesting, created adventures for people that needed rescuing or help and created 'stories' about their journey they would tell other players in game. It was so simple, but marvelous.
Agent Smith from the Matrix movie said it best when he talked about the perfect world the first Matrix was, and human minds didn't accept it as real because it was too easy and not real. MMOs need risk to have reality and reward. This is why there is so much passion for SWG players, as they felt like they lived in the world, and didn't just sign in to an artificial place to meet friends. They owned houses, prize weapons, had amazing stories, and also the risks that were necessary to make them accept it as 'real'.
(A touch of reality is always necessary or you might as well go play pac-man - WAR developers, are you listening? If people want a game with free new lives and no chance of damage they play pac-man or Halo, not an MMO and certainly not a world you want them to 'live' in to support your game.)
I beg to differ. When was the last time you played it? I suggest you check out the trial. If you haven't played in a while, your account might even be active.
People keep saying its changed yet I came back to play it one one of them come back things the other month and it's still a boring generic barren world with ugly character models.
Hello? This was around for years before SWG. I hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but Asheron's Call was the pinacle of MMO's. It featured a seemless world. Yes there were portals but most places, besides islands, were reachable on foot.
A dynamic skills system where the more you used an ability the better it got? Yep AC had that.
No classes and the freedom to choose what skills you wanted? Yep, AC had that too.
The only thing AC was lacking was a melee hotbar. Melee was all auto attack.
Asheron's Call was, I believe, also the first game to introduce player housing and trophies.((I've been informed that UO was actually the first with player housing.)) Then Guild Housing. Then a player run market place.
Quests all meant something. There weren't a lot of them, but some of them spanned the globe and had several steps to complete. Many of them required more than one party of players working together to complete. Yes, sometimes everything went haywire, but that was the way of it and it added yet another learning curve to the game.
Turbine screwed the pooch with AC2, by throwing away everything that made AC great. I only hope that one day they put all they have learned from AC, DDO, and LoTRO into making AC3.
Turbine screwed the pooch with AC2, by throwing away everything that made AC great. I only hope that one day they put all they have learned from AC, DDO, and LoTRO into making AC3.
While I never played the original, I would be interested in playing a 3rd one that followed the core design of the original but brought it up to modern MMO standards.
There certainly was a lot of innovation and variety that came out in 2003/2004, and I agree, since WOW appeared its influence has been very negative on the market as a whole.
Which is why I play a 4 year old game (EVE) now.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
thenetavenge: nice post. Was an interesting read.
I know that this isn't likely to happen, but I'd love to see a new MMO along the lines of UO/AC/SWG, with dated 3D graphics and a massive game world. The foundation is there, the player base is there (believe it or not), and theres a large hole in the genre, right where a game like this would fit in. It may be hard to believe, but there is a large portion of MMO vets who are willing to sacrifice graphics for a complex game design.
I tried Vanguard again right before the trial came out. I kept hearing how great it had come, etc.
I tried it with a very open mind, but was very disappointed. The game looked as I remembered it: blande and uninspired. I still got poor FPS in a lot of areas (my rig is decent...its not my hardware), the animation looked wooden and choppy. It felt very unpolished...almost like it was made by a bunch of college roommates or something.
I'll try the trial out since you say it has better models but I can't imagine even that changing my opinion of the game that much.
Contrary to popular belief WAR is pretty innovative.
Flame on if you wish but here are some innovations that definitely should (and probably will) become the staple of any future succesful MMO.
1) Public Quests - this revolutionizes open world PvE, absolutely
2) Tome of Knowledge - a wonder no game before had something like this (and no, it is not a simple achievement tracking system)
3) Trophies - customization beyond character creation screen, unconnected with stat-bearing gear
In addition there are some other innovations that I really wouldn't say should find a place in every game or are a quantum leap forward but they are there.
Other games in the "WoW era" did bring some other interesting innovations. AoC's mounted combat, for example or the attempt to introduce RTS-style player built cities... Hmm.. can't think of anything else really - oh Tabula Rasa's mob faction - this idea could really come into its own in Aion's PvPvE system. I like the idea of fighting against a huge mob civ-style AI controlling armies of mobs as well as their resources and bases.
So it's really not that bleak. Imo the majority of people griping that there is no innovation in the genre are paradoxically advocating a return to the very oldest MMO concept - that of a sandbox. I'm not saying that sandbox is a flawed idea at its core... it is just that imo people should be a bit more open-minded and ready to accept new ideas. Imo the UO vs EQ or "themepark" vs "sandbox" days are loong behind us.
There are some quite interesting new developments recently and it would be a pity to miss them because you're looking at things with the same glasses you wore in 1999.
For example, it is ridiculous how some people are hailing Darkfall as "revolutionary" or "innovative" while it is quite obvious that it is a UO clone done in 3D... and UO released in 1998. I'm not saying it is bound to be a bad game because of it, quite the contrary, I can't wait to try it out when it finally releases, but let us not confuse the issues here.