I have seen some of the greatest possible MMOs go straight to video. As an example, Vanguard. I played it from Alpha. It had some of the greatest ideas available in MMO. Very unique, very challenging, not ready for release when it was. SoE took it over annd all of a sudden, it had to come out NOW! When the game opened, I think there were 9 servers loaded to the max. Now there are 4 underpopulated servers. Had they not jumped the gun, and let beta go on for even 4 more months, it would have rivaled the other AAA titles today. As it is, it is just a fanboi game, which is regrettable, because now it is a decent game. Now it will continue to slide due to lack of subscribers, and be lost to other AA games.
A lot of games are released too early because of the distributer. They ruin the great foundations games are built on in order to make THAT quarter look good. They do not look at the long term picture of the game. They expect people to stick around out of loyalty, but in reality, we all want a good game, and will wait for it.
Most hated: nay sayers on forums ruining others fun in games. just, shut up would you?
It ruins your fun to know what other people don't like about the game? Dang, you must be fun to hang out with.
First, learn to read. I wasn't referencing myself, just a general gripe about how negativity spreads like a virus. Think about it people, this forum is a form of marketing for Warhammer, when people come here and see a bunch of babies crying about this and that, what else are they supposed to think?
Aren't you tired of reading negativity on forums for GAMES. Games are supposed to be about having fun and relaxation, and the lot of you choose to stress out about them on a daily basis.
I just had to throw in on this one. I voted Other because: I have seen some of the greatest possible MMOs go straight to video. As an example, Vanguard. I played it from Alpha. It had some of the greatest ideas available in MMO. Very unique, very challenging, not ready for release when it was. SoE took it over annd all of a sudden, it had to come out NOW! When the game opened, I think there were 9 servers loaded to the max. Now there are 4 underpopulated servers. Had they not jumped the gun, and let beta go on for even 4 more months, it would have rivaled the other AAA titles today. As it is, it is just a fanboi game, which is regrettable, because now it is a decent game. Now it will continue to slide due to lack of subscribers, and be lost to other AA games. A lot of games are released too early because of the distributer. They ruin the great foundations games are built on in order to make THAT quarter look good. They do not look at the long term picture of the game. They expect people to stick around out of loyalty, but in reality, we all want a good game, and will wait for it. /end rant Just IMHO
Actually, Sony took it over after release.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I've got to go with bad community as my number #1.
You could have the best game in the world but if the community is wack forget about it.. the reason we vets lament old school games is as much about the people we've met and played with as anything.
These are troubling times, bad manors, language, childish behavior, etc.. MMO's are simply a reflection of the world today.
Aren't you tired of reading negativity on forums for GAMES. Games are supposed to be about having fun and relaxation, and the lot of you choose to stress out about them on a daily basis.
I have a feeling its because MMORPGs are more than just 'games'. To a lot of people, they are literally a way of life. What other genre has caused divorces, child neglect and social isolation? As a result, it is likely that many of these folks feel the need to defend their game to the hilt, as they have invested such a large amount of time and money into them. It's like someone coming along and insulting your job or where you live.
I'm not condoning this type of mentality btw, lol.
Aren't you tired of reading negativity on forums for GAMES. Games are supposed to be about having fun and relaxation, and the lot of you choose to stress out about them on a daily basis.
I have a feeling its because MMORPGs are more than just 'games'. To a lot of people, they are literally a way of life. What other genre has caused divorces, child neglect and social isolation? As a result, it is likely that many of these folks feel the need to defend their game to the hilt, as they have invested such a large amount of time and money into them. It's like someone coming along and insulting your job or where you live.
I'm not condoning this type of mentality btw, lol.
MMORPG's and games are like hobbies.
"It's just a game" crowd are the ones that go drunk on a golf field to shoot a few, and maybe, just maybe have the luck to hit someone in the head, so they can put it on youtube.
Then there's the MMO crew, that takes it seriously, it's a serious and fun hobby. They play the full 18 holes, and whenever they go somewhere, they check out the golf courses nearby...
So get used to it, just cuz it's on a computer, don't mean it's not a full worthy hobby, and people are protective of their hobbies. Woldnt you protect your stamp collection?
my problem is that everything is the same, i dont know if this falls under "no innovations" or "devs are too scared to take risks" .... its just everything is the same. if there would be MMOFPS's MMO-Worlds, Hardcore MMOs as well as casual MMOs then i think there would be a lot less complaining. Maybe MMO developers should start defining MMO into subclasses. WoW is not an EQ1 clone, saying it is, is disrespectful to EQ. WoW is a single player game with the MMO part coming in at the end. EQ1 back in the day was a true MMO, you needed other players for nearly anything, you actually had to respect your fellow player instead of being a complete douche or else risk being ostracized or black listed. instead of the idiots breeding from WoW who want to solo everything because thier social skills come down to "omg you all suck!" thats why i say everything now is a WoW clone, because comparing these games now to EQ1 would be a complete and utter diss to EQ1.
AMEN TO THAT!!
Anyway, i like most voted lack of innovation. But right up there is the utter hand holding involved in almost everything now, and what is probably actually my #1 Beef is that the ride to end game has mostly disappeared. Now it is all about getting to max level as soon as you can so you can get into the "real" game. I remember when levels 1-50 were interesting enough that you didnt have to rush through them.
I voted "no inovation/devs affraid taking risks" because thats the closest. Its not what I really think.
I think they need to start defining games - not try making a game for everyone, but start making games for certain profile of gamers. Its like movies - Movie that wants to be a comedy a horror and a porn flick and all at the same time would in most cases suck. The game need to start having clear target audience instead of trying to please everyone.
Second, and I think this is most important - I think all of the old MMO companies are just not capable of thinking out of the box. They have these ways how "things should be done" in order to be more or less successfull and they cling on to it like crazy. Some indie companies do have great ideas, but they rarely have financial backing an manpower that can bring it to practice.
I think we will see reall "next gen" inovation again when one of the big players of the game market that didn't have a mmo so far, and isn't burdened with a decade of previously established way of thinking - like Epic or Bioware (maybe already) for example, decides to step into the arena, and brings new fresh ideas from developers that are used making other type of games where perception of what is fun is entirely in another category from what we currently see in MMOs, and they have enough buck to back it up.
Before that happens, we will only have these old companies rehashing decades of previously used ideas and adding a twist to them and selling them as new games.
Some interesting results so far, and good comments.
It's no real suprise that 'Lack of innovation' is out there in the lead, closely followed by 'Linear Gameplay'. These are issues that are brought up time and again by players on these forums.
I have to admit that I thought 'It's all Blizzard's Fault' would have scored a bit higher as WoW-bashing seems to be a popular sport these days. It would also be interesting to hear from the people who voted 'There's something wrong with MMORPG's?'. Either they were being ironic or they are quite content with where the industry is going - contrary to what to doomsayers might tell you!
I am no fan of raids. I think raids have led to these loot whoring POS we currently play. But I’ve accepted the fact that raids are here to stay.
So instead of sticking with the current crappy design we have where really the hardest part is being able to get X number of people at there computer for Y number of hours straight let’s make raids a single multi tier battle with dynamic elements which would take a half and hour to an hour to complete. Why do you have to spend hours killing trash mobs just to get to the boss which only tank several minutes to kill?
In general the lack of well thought out non combat features. UO was great for me because there was more to it then omfg must kill.
Originally posted by wolfmann "It's just a game" crowd are the ones that go drunk on a golf field to shoot a few, and maybe, just maybe have the luck to hit someone in the head, so they can put it on youtube.
LMAO. Thats probably not fair to the non-asshats in the "it's just a game" crowd...but it's damn funny. And, I agree. If gaming is your hobby, then theres nothing wrong with really getting into it, rather than just sitting there, waiting to be entertained. Personally, I want the ability to do some thing creative and unique in an MMO. And, in all honesty, there are very few MMOs that give you that opportunity.
Though I went back and forth with the Treadmill / Grind and a lack of innovation, I think the treadmill problem is fundamentally tied to developers being frightened of doing anything other than what has always been done. Thus they bring us all along in their rut of killing 20 woozits and collecting 35 big toes.
That's pretty much what has killed the genre for me. The day that they stop relying on kindergarten counting lessons is the day that I'll once again enjoy a MMO. It's pretty bad when the very base upon which a multi-million dollar genre is built is both offensive (no really, I am capable of something more "complex" than counting) and puts one to sleep.
Though I'm not a fanboy of the game, this is why Vanguard's diplomacy was really cool for a time. The big problem that I ran into with that was the lack of clothing to do the quests (I often found quests greying out), and clothing quests always returning to both the same dialogue and NPC. For a time though, I was really into it because it was different and was full of story.
Lack of PLAYER initiative. I believe that would go with the no sandbox/inovation is dead lines in the polls. We all piss and moan for both but how much initiative do we currently take in the games we play now? It is definatly related. The less effort you have to put out vice reward is good is it not? I know sarcasm there but really the reality is no one wants to put any effort into anything besides showing up for a raid, kill monster and collect shiny loot. I for one would like more but I dont see me getting it any time soon.
Lack of PLAYER initiative. I believe that would go with the no sandbox/inovation is dead lines in the polls. We all piss and moan for both but how much initiative do we currently take in the games we play now? It is definatly related. The less effort you have to put out vice reward is good is it not? I know sarcasm there but really the reality is no one wants to put any effort into anything besides showing up for a raid, kill monster and collect shiny loot. I for one would like more but I dont see me getting it any time soon.
I both agree and disagree. On the one hand there is a problem with most players wanting everything handed to them on a silver platter. On the other hand, I refuse to do the work when I'm the one paying the monthly fee.
I said 'instant gratification'. I am saying this because of my past history as a MUD and MMO player. MUDs and early MMOs didn't handhold as much and people were more willing to just play the game for what it was, bugs, warts n all. I don't think there is any coincidence that people still have extremely fond memories of the older games and I don't believe it has to do with the fact that they were the first games people tried in the 'wow factor' sense. Game companies provided us with games that were far more challenging but also more time consuming than the recent fare. Everything took longer. Instant gratification wasn't even something I considered while playing games like EQ and AO. I just put in the time to do things and that was it. If not, I just didn't get what I wanted. I didn't whine if I couldn't get it or do it. But to me it was all fun because the community in those games was great back in the 'old days'. Far more people were playing just for the sake of playing.
Instant gratification is ruining WAR for example. The 'need' for instant PvP and the lack of wanting to group up to find PvP in the frontiers is causing most people to play only 30% of the game. It's a real shame. I don't think Mythic was expecting players to grind scenarios exclusively or to go solo in them.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
in the beginning not everyone could afford a gaming rig so it kept second and third generation pc's out of online games (dreamcast vs psx also). now kids can find a pc in a trash heap and most likely get it to run WoW.
when it was all new it did seem crisper and the people more unique, now i see it as a bunch of weeaboo emo bastards who get dells for x-mas typing like retards and putting lol before and after every sentence.i honestly think THAT is where most of the problems communitywise originate. i dont want to party with anyone that HAS to use lol to form a sentence..
Terrible chat and matchmaking systems that stifle conversation and prevent people from finding one another. Almost all modern MMOs have no universal chat and are unclear about what channels you are on and who you're talking to. Developers refuse to copy basic conveniences from other games as though their honor depended upon it. As though they weren't copying everything else they could get their hands on.
Too much instant travel, along with this incomprehensible rise in the popularity of instancing, means fewer chance encounters and none of the nomadic mini-communities that used to happen at leveling hubs. It's nice to have options and not be forced to level in a certain area, but being able to teleport all over the place means you see a different group of people every time you return to your outpost. Some of that is fine. I don't like that it's now always the case. Thank God for the Barrens - at least you can still hate somebody there.
einexile the meek Vacuos, Winterlong, Vaciante, Eicosapenta Atlantean, Tyranny, Malton
For me, my most hated aspect of MMOs is the intentional time-sinks. Yes, playing an MMO is going to eat up your time. However, having (in the case of Wow) a griffon flight take 10 real time minutes while I just stare at the screen is a ridiculous and fully intentional timesink. Same with having a bar take 45-60 seconds to complete while I craft one item. Wow is hardly the only one guilty of this, but that's my biggest complaint with MMOs.
For me, my most hated aspect of MMOs is the intentional time-sinks. Yes, playing an MMO is going to eat up your time. However, having (in the case of Wow) a griffon flight take 10 real time minutes while I just stare at the screen is a ridiculous and fully intentional timesink. Same with having a bar take 45-60 seconds to complete while I craft one item. Wow is hardly the only one guilty of this, but that's my biggest complaint with MMOs.
The griffon rides aren't time sinks, they are downtime. It's possible that wasn't Blizzard's intention but I think it was, because they put a lot of thought into exactly where the ride takes you; by zig zagging between landmarks it acts as both a preview of what's to come and a reminder of what you're done with. (Granted there are some sloppy bits, most notably along the rivers bordering Elwynn and Azshara.)
So I don't think they made longer trips to the more popular dungeons by accident, for instance. It gets people away from the computer for a minute, and more importantly it creates time for guild drama and secret plots and backstabbing. If there's one thing we know they've got down to a science it's drama.
einexile the meek Vacuos, Winterlong, Vaciante, Eicosapenta Atlantean, Tyranny, Malton
Comments
I just had to throw in on this one.
I voted Other because:
I have seen some of the greatest possible MMOs go straight to video. As an example, Vanguard. I played it from Alpha. It had some of the greatest ideas available in MMO. Very unique, very challenging, not ready for release when it was. SoE took it over annd all of a sudden, it had to come out NOW! When the game opened, I think there were 9 servers loaded to the max. Now there are 4 underpopulated servers. Had they not jumped the gun, and let beta go on for even 4 more months, it would have rivaled the other AAA titles today. As it is, it is just a fanboi game, which is regrettable, because now it is a decent game. Now it will continue to slide due to lack of subscribers, and be lost to other AA games.
A lot of games are released too early because of the distributer. They ruin the great foundations games are built on in order to make THAT quarter look good. They do not look at the long term picture of the game. They expect people to stick around out of loyalty, but in reality, we all want a good game, and will wait for it.
/end rant
Just IMHO
Most hated: nay sayers on forums ruining others fun in games. just, shut up would you?
PLAY WURM ONLINE!! www.wurmonline.com
It ruins your fun to know what other people don't like about the game? Dang, you must be fun to hang out with.
Biggest single problem?
"Make it like WOW".
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Not as bad as pointless posts critising polls
Seriously if you don't like polls you have the option of not having to read them, Stop being a troll.
I voted for lack of innovation although theres several looking to break the mould over the next year or so.
It ruins your fun to know what other people don't like about the game? Dang, you must be fun to hang out with.
First, learn to read. I wasn't referencing myself, just a general gripe about how negativity spreads like a virus. Think about it people, this forum is a form of marketing for Warhammer, when people come here and see a bunch of babies crying about this and that, what else are they supposed to think?
Aren't you tired of reading negativity on forums for GAMES. Games are supposed to be about having fun and relaxation, and the lot of you choose to stress out about them on a daily basis.
PLAY WURM ONLINE!! www.wurmonline.com
Actually, Sony took it over after release.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I've got to go with bad community as my number #1.
You could have the best game in the world but if the community is wack forget about it.. the reason we vets lament old school games is as much about the people we've met and played with as anything.
These are troubling times, bad manors, language, childish behavior, etc.. MMO's are simply a reflection of the world today.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
I have a feeling its because MMORPGs are more than just 'games'. To a lot of people, they are literally a way of life. What other genre has caused divorces, child neglect and social isolation? As a result, it is likely that many of these folks feel the need to defend their game to the hilt, as they have invested such a large amount of time and money into them. It's like someone coming along and insulting your job or where you live.
I'm not condoning this type of mentality btw, lol.
I have a feeling its because MMORPGs are more than just 'games'. To a lot of people, they are literally a way of life. What other genre has caused divorces, child neglect and social isolation? As a result, it is likely that many of these folks feel the need to defend their game to the hilt, as they have invested such a large amount of time and money into them. It's like someone coming along and insulting your job or where you live.
I'm not condoning this type of mentality btw, lol.
MMORPG's and games are like hobbies.
"It's just a game" crowd are the ones that go drunk on a golf field to shoot a few, and maybe, just maybe have the luck to hit someone in the head, so they can put it on youtube.
Then there's the MMO crew, that takes it seriously, it's a serious and fun hobby. They play the full 18 holes, and whenever they go somewhere, they check out the golf courses nearby...
So get used to it, just cuz it's on a computer, don't mean it's not a full worthy hobby, and people are protective of their hobbies. Woldnt you protect your stamp collection?
AMEN TO THAT!!
Anyway, i like most voted lack of innovation. But right up there is the utter hand holding involved in almost everything now, and what is probably actually my #1 Beef is that the ride to end game has mostly disappeared. Now it is all about getting to max level as soon as you can so you can get into the "real" game. I remember when levels 1-50 were interesting enough that you didnt have to rush through them.
I voted "no inovation/devs affraid taking risks" because thats the closest. Its not what I really think.
I think they need to start defining games - not try making a game for everyone, but start making games for certain profile of gamers. Its like movies - Movie that wants to be a comedy a horror and a porn flick and all at the same time would in most cases suck. The game need to start having clear target audience instead of trying to please everyone.
Second, and I think this is most important - I think all of the old MMO companies are just not capable of thinking out of the box. They have these ways how "things should be done" in order to be more or less successfull and they cling on to it like crazy. Some indie companies do have great ideas, but they rarely have financial backing an manpower that can bring it to practice.
I think we will see reall "next gen" inovation again when one of the big players of the game market that didn't have a mmo so far, and isn't burdened with a decade of previously established way of thinking - like Epic or Bioware (maybe already) for example, decides to step into the arena, and brings new fresh ideas from developers that are used making other type of games where perception of what is fun is entirely in another category from what we currently see in MMOs, and they have enough buck to back it up.
Before that happens, we will only have these old companies rehashing decades of previously used ideas and adding a twist to them and selling them as new games.
Some interesting results so far, and good comments.
It's no real suprise that 'Lack of innovation' is out there in the lead, closely followed by 'Linear Gameplay'. These are issues that are brought up time and again by players on these forums.
I have to admit that I thought 'It's all Blizzard's Fault' would have scored a bit higher as WoW-bashing seems to be a popular sport these days. It would also be interesting to hear from the people who voted 'There's something wrong with MMORPG's?'. Either they were being ironic or they are quite content with where the industry is going - contrary to what to doomsayers might tell you!
I think "something wrong with MMOs" category could also fit in my previous answer, the second paragraph in particular.
Full edit:
I am no fan of raids. I think raids have led to these loot whoring POS we currently play. But I’ve accepted the fact that raids are here to stay.
So instead of sticking with the current crappy design we have where really the hardest part is being able to get X number of people at there computer for Y number of hours straight let’s make raids a single multi tier battle with dynamic elements which would take a half and hour to an hour to complete. Why do you have to spend hours killing trash mobs just to get to the boss which only tank several minutes to kill?
In general the lack of well thought out non combat features. UO was great for me because there was more to it then omfg must kill.
LMAO. Thats probably not fair to the non-asshats in the "it's just a game" crowd...but it's damn funny. And, I agree. If gaming is your hobby, then theres nothing wrong with really getting into it, rather than just sitting there, waiting to be entertained. Personally, I want the ability to do some thing creative and unique in an MMO. And, in all honesty, there are very few MMOs that give you that opportunity.
Lack of Innovation.
Though I went back and forth with the Treadmill / Grind and a lack of innovation, I think the treadmill problem is fundamentally tied to developers being frightened of doing anything other than what has always been done. Thus they bring us all along in their rut of killing 20 woozits and collecting 35 big toes.
That's pretty much what has killed the genre for me. The day that they stop relying on kindergarten counting lessons is the day that I'll once again enjoy a MMO. It's pretty bad when the very base upon which a multi-million dollar genre is built is both offensive (no really, I am capable of something more "complex" than counting) and puts one to sleep.
Though I'm not a fanboy of the game, this is why Vanguard's diplomacy was really cool for a time. The big problem that I ran into with that was the lack of clothing to do the quests (I often found quests greying out), and clothing quests always returning to both the same dialogue and NPC. For a time though, I was really into it because it was different and was full of story.
..and that's that.
Lack of PLAYER initiative. I believe that would go with the no sandbox/inovation is dead lines in the polls. We all piss and moan for both but how much initiative do we currently take in the games we play now? It is definatly related. The less effort you have to put out vice reward is good is it not? I know sarcasm there but really the reality is no one wants to put any effort into anything besides showing up for a raid, kill monster and collect shiny loot. I for one would like more but I dont see me getting it any time soon.
I both agree and disagree. On the one hand there is a problem with most players wanting everything handed to them on a silver platter. On the other hand, I refuse to do the work when I'm the one paying the monthly fee.
So there definitely needs to be a balance found.
I said 'instant gratification'. I am saying this because of my past history as a MUD and MMO player. MUDs and early MMOs didn't handhold as much and people were more willing to just play the game for what it was, bugs, warts n all. I don't think there is any coincidence that people still have extremely fond memories of the older games and I don't believe it has to do with the fact that they were the first games people tried in the 'wow factor' sense. Game companies provided us with games that were far more challenging but also more time consuming than the recent fare. Everything took longer. Instant gratification wasn't even something I considered while playing games like EQ and AO. I just put in the time to do things and that was it. If not, I just didn't get what I wanted. I didn't whine if I couldn't get it or do it. But to me it was all fun because the community in those games was great back in the 'old days'. Far more people were playing just for the sake of playing.
Instant gratification is ruining WAR for example. The 'need' for instant PvP and the lack of wanting to group up to find PvP in the frontiers is causing most people to play only 30% of the game. It's a real shame. I don't think Mythic was expecting players to grind scenarios exclusively or to go solo in them.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
in the beginning not everyone could afford a gaming rig so it kept second and third generation pc's out of online games (dreamcast vs psx also). now kids can find a pc in a trash heap and most likely get it to run WoW.
when it was all new it did seem crisper and the people more unique, now i see it as a bunch of weeaboo emo bastards who get dells for x-mas typing like retards and putting lol before and after every sentence.i honestly think THAT is where most of the problems communitywise originate. i dont want to party with anyone that HAS to use lol to form a sentence..
Definitely other.
Terrible chat and matchmaking systems that stifle conversation and prevent people from finding one another. Almost all modern MMOs have no universal chat and are unclear about what channels you are on and who you're talking to. Developers refuse to copy basic conveniences from other games as though their honor depended upon it. As though they weren't copying everything else they could get their hands on.
Too much instant travel, along with this incomprehensible rise in the popularity of instancing, means fewer chance encounters and none of the nomadic mini-communities that used to happen at leveling hubs. It's nice to have options and not be forced to level in a certain area, but being able to teleport all over the place means you see a different group of people every time you return to your outpost. Some of that is fine. I don't like that it's now always the case. Thank God for the Barrens - at least you can still hate somebody there.
einexile the meek
Vacuos, Winterlong, Vaciante, Eicosapenta
Atlantean, Tyranny, Malton
You forgot instancing in the poll.
For me, my most hated aspect of MMOs is the intentional time-sinks. Yes, playing an MMO is going to eat up your time. However, having (in the case of Wow) a griffon flight take 10 real time minutes while I just stare at the screen is a ridiculous and fully intentional timesink. Same with having a bar take 45-60 seconds to complete while I craft one item. Wow is hardly the only one guilty of this, but that's my biggest complaint with MMOs.
The griffon rides aren't time sinks, they are downtime. It's possible that wasn't Blizzard's intention but I think it was, because they put a lot of thought into exactly where the ride takes you; by zig zagging between landmarks it acts as both a preview of what's to come and a reminder of what you're done with. (Granted there are some sloppy bits, most notably along the rivers bordering Elwynn and Azshara.)
So I don't think they made longer trips to the more popular dungeons by accident, for instance. It gets people away from the computer for a minute, and more importantly it creates time for guild drama and secret plots and backstabbing. If there's one thing we know they've got down to a science it's drama.
einexile the meek
Vacuos, Winterlong, Vaciante, Eicosapenta
Atlantean, Tyranny, Malton