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Designing an MMORPG for Playing a Role as opposed to roleplaying.
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
How would you design an MMORPG for Role Playing?
First, let me define what I see as role playing. I think there are two definitions:
1. Playing a role, like in paper 'n pencil games such as D&D where you pretend to be a character that is different from your self. For example, I might play a character with a gruff exterior, always complaining, but with a soft spot for people in trouble.
2. Computer Roleplaying Games. CRPG's have one thing in common, character advancement. Some of the earliest CRPG's were based on D&D. They were single player. Obviously you couldn't talk to your computer and pretend to be a character with a gruff exterior, but a soft spot for people in trouble. Instead, your character gained levels or skill levels, and usually there was a linear, or branching, story.
Some people argue that you're playing a role in a CRPG, just like in a paper 'n pencil game, because you make choices for your character. There are dialog trees, adn you pick the good or evil responses. I suppose that is a sort of limited playing of a role, but it's not the same because you can't step outside of the pre-determined dialog trees. Do you kill the Bandit you have captured, yes or no? What will you do, give the money back to the peasants, or keep it? The Old Woman asks you a question. Do you tell the truth or lie?
It's just a canned script, not really the same thing as playing a role, to pick between dialog choices.
When MMORPGs came out, many people thought it was going to be like playing a Paper 'n Pencil game online, and you would play a role. But, it turned out that's hard to do when all the NPC's are computer dialog. So, the MMORPGs turned out to be similar to CRPG's, that is they were mostly about character advancement. Levels, gear, skills, and so on.
Yes, you could play a role with your friends online, but it wasn't quite the same since it was you and your friends, playing a role with computer generated dialog. Makes for sort of stale roleplaying IMO. It doesn't leave much room for joking, drama, inneuendo and so forth when you play a role with computer scripted dialog.
So how do you design an MMORPG for playing a role, that is "acting" like you are someone else, rather than "roleplaying" in a computer game, that is advancing a character with levels, skills, and gear?
Well, I don't know hte answer, but I think I know Step One: Get rid of all NPC's, and all scripted Quests, and all scripted dialog.
Getting rid of NPC's has been proposed before, and people respond by saying, you can't do that, it would make the game too tedious, etc. But I'm not talking about designing a standard WoW clone, minus hte NPC's.
I"m saying design the game from scratch, sans NPC's and scripted quests and dialog, and make it geared towards playing a role.
Comments
Isn't that the ultimate goal of MMOs anyways? (To make the world made up of only players)
The only reason NPCs are used is to fill in the gaps because technology doesn't allow us to have as many players as we'd like to have. I think the MMO community is largely to blame for actually wanting to get rid of the "role playing" element, which is rather unfortunate. This can be judged by the amount of roleplay hating and the amount of people that love WoW and games like it.
And yes, the RP in RPG is for role playing. Don't try to win a semantic battle because it is nonsense. Playing a role doesn't mean playing a class. When D&D was first invented, it was suppose to be a new version of games like Warhammer that the player would just control one character instead. They noticed that people were pretending to be their characters and accidentally created "Role Playing Games".
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Wouldn't it be better to change the nature of the NPCs? Make them more random, and with greater diversity. Give them a role to play as well, not just repeat the same patterns of dialogue and movements, stuck to the ground or not.
If you remove the NPCs, then all there is the scenery. I think the enviroment would be more challenging if there are NPCs and players. I think the linear, forced pattern, aspect is more the problem. I also guess a lot of players like ranking, so I think an MMO without leveling would need something to replace it, to offer players an opportunity for entrance in a hall of fame of some sort. Hope I made myself clear.
Another problem with an open game with only player characters is the lack of a driving force. You will depend on certain type of players to make it interesting. In a way the gaming would need a director of some sort to organize the party.
I think your idea is good. Just fear you go to the other extreme from too controlled an repetetive to an environment void of content. It's more of a force that could change the MMOs like they are today, than a final solution.
If you start with EVE(tried it, don't play it), where would you go from there. I mean there is no leveling, player based economy, corporations etc. How would you make it more open, and what would you gain. Be spesific.
I think you need the NPC's and the quests to give options. I like games where I'm free to do whatever I want, but I like to know what I can do. Quests give me options and objectives and things that need to get finished. NPC's are needed because they hand out the quests.
I think a better solution would be to improve NPC Ai so that they interact in a more realistic way and respond not only to which dialogue you select, but also how you act. Example, you stand there brandishing a sword at some guy he should look concerned. If you kill him or kill someone in front of him he likely would run if he saw you coming. Instead of just standing around waiting for you to come look for quests the NPC's should go about their daily lives and only pause to notice you when you interrupt them.
It seems to me that ever since WoW came along with it's strong focus on quests and linear progression, MMOs have been moving more toward a console-style, where the game is basically a 'story that you play', only it involves other people and you get to say all your own lines.
I don't believe it would work because people wouldn't want to play certain roles in the game. People wouldn't want to sit around in their shop all day selling items to other people. People wouldn't want to play the monster sitting in the deep dungeon all day waiting for someone to come and kill it. On top of players not wanting to play roles you would also be dependent on the community entirely for the success or failure of the game. I don't think many developers want to rely on their customers to come up with content to entertain eachother. It seems to me that the best place to truely roleplay is PnP if thats what you really enjoy.
The thing is, I'm not suggesting anyone do any of those things you listed. I'm not suggesting anyone sit in a shop all day selling items, nor am I suggesting anyone sit in a dungeon all day waiting for someoen to come and kill them.
No, that is not the ultimate goal of MMO"s, to get rid of NPC's. NPC's make the standard MMORPG playable. Without them, the standard MMORPG would be horribly tedious.
I'm saying get rid of the NPC's, but if you do that, you can't have a standard MMORPG. It will have to be something different.
No, that is not the ultimate goal of MMO"s, to get rid of NPC's. NPC's make the standard MMORPG playable. Without them, the standard MMORPG would be horribly tedious.
I'm saying get rid of the NPC's, but if you do that, you can't have a standard MMORPG. It will have to be something different.
Something, is to general to respond to. You have to give some more hints of what you want different than just empty the environment of todays MMORPGS. How would you create a storyline. How would you make it interesting at all. I mean some imagination is required to create an intereting game. Leaving that only to the players implies that there always will have to be imginative people around online. There is a reason not everybody becomes an author etc.. It is so easy to remove. But to add you need to be creative beyond average.
No, that is not the ultimate goal of MMO"s, to get rid of NPC's. NPC's make the standard MMORPG playable. Without them, the standard MMORPG would be horribly tedious.
I'm saying get rid of the NPC's, but if you do that, you can't have a standard MMORPG. It will have to be something different.
Something, is to general to respond to. You have to give some more hints of what you want different than just empty the environment of todays MMORPGS. How would you create a storyline. How would you make it interesting at all. I mean some imagination is required to create an intereting game. Leaving that only to the players implies that there always will have to be imginative people around online. There is a reason not everybody becomes an author etc.. It is so easy to remove. But to add you need to be creative beyond average.
I'm open to suggestions, and I think there are more ways than one to accomplish this objective.
My suggestion would be to give the players as many ways as possible to change the game world.
I'll give just one example. Let's say you could change the atmosphere of an entire zone. What it looks like, what sort of mobs spawn, whether it stays dark all the time or has a night and day cycle. Let's say you could make this particular zone look like a happy place with butterflies, sunshine, and fairies. OR, you could make it dark and foreboding, with constant fog that obscured the sun, and dead people impaled and screaming all over the place. You can come up with the mechanics, construct a device, sacrifice so many animal skins, pay so much gold, gather 100 players around the old oak tree to do a magic dance, take over the sacred well and throw dragons blood in it, gather so many 4 leaf clovers, whatever. Maybe you have to do all of those things.
Now, here's the difference between that example, and your standard MMORPG. In your standard MMORPG, some NPC tells you a story about why you need to do a quest. And if you don't do this quest, the entire zone is going to turn into hell on earth, with fog that blots out the sun, and people impaled and dying everywhere.
But we both know that whether you do the quest or not, nothing is actually going to happen to the zone. What really happens, is the zone stays the same, and you do the quest and the NPC says what a hero you are, and rewards you with +2 boots of crappiness.
Then someone else comes along, gets the same story, the zone stays the same whether they take the quest or not, and if they do the quest, they get the same boots of crappiness.
The difference is, there's no NPC to tell you a story which is meaningless, since nothing happens whether you read hte story or not, unless you consider getting boots of crappiness as something happening.
Instead, you can actually change the game world, and YOU get to make up the story about why you want to do it, and how you will convince other players to go along with you. Not everyone has to be creative, or an author, many people can simply respond to those that are story tellers that come up with soemthing to motivate them to take the actions necessary to change the world.
And remember, this is just one example, so if your response is, well who cares if the zone is all rainbows and sunshine, or doom and gloom, there would be hundreds of other things in the world you could change, so if you weren't interested in that, you could concentrate on something else.
No, that is not the ultimate goal of MMO"s, to get rid of NPC's. NPC's make the standard MMORPG playable. Without them, the standard MMORPG would be horribly tedious.
I'm saying get rid of the NPC's, but if you do that, you can't have a standard MMORPG. It will have to be something different.
Something, is to general to respond to. You have to give some more hints of what you want different than just empty the environment of todays MMORPGS. How would you create a storyline. How would you make it interesting at all. I mean some imagination is required to create an intereting game. Leaving that only to the players implies that there always will have to be imginative people around online. There is a reason not everybody becomes an author etc.. It is so easy to remove. But to add you need to be creative beyond average.
I'm open to suggestions, and I think there are more ways than one to accomplish this objective.
My suggestion would be to give the players as many ways as possible to change the game world.
I'll give just one example. Let's say you could change the atmosphere of an entire zone. What it looks like, what sort of mobs spawn, whether it stays dark all the time or has a night and day cycle. Let's say you could make this particular zone look like a happy place with butterflies, sunshine, and fairies. OR, you could make it dark and foreboding, with constant fog that obscured the sun, and dead people impaled and screaming all over the place. You can come up with the mechanics, construct a device, sacrifice so many animal skins, pay so much gold, gather 100 players around the old oak tree to do a magic dance, take over the sacred well and throw dragons blood in it, gather so many 4 leaf clovers, whatever. Maybe you have to do all of those things.
Now, here's the difference between that example, and your standard MMORPG. In your standard MMORPG, some NPC tells you a story about why you need to do a quest. And if you don't do this quest, the entire zone is going to turn into hell on earth, with fog that blots out the sun, and people impaled and dying everywhere.
But we both know that whether you do the quest or not, nothing is actually going to happen to the zone. What really happens, is the zone stays the same, and you do the quest and the NPC says what a hero you are, and rewards you with +2 boots of crappiness.
Then someone else comes along, gets the same story, the zone stays the same whether they take the quest or not, and if they do the quest, they get the same boots of crappiness.
The difference is, there's no NPC to tell you a story which is meaningless, since nothing happens whether you read hte story or not, unless you consider getting boots of crappiness as something happening.
Instead, you can actually change the game world, and YOU get to make up the story about why you want to do it, and how you will convince other players to go along with you. Not everyone has to be creative, or an author, many people can simply respond to those that are story tellers that come up with soemthing to motivate them to take the actions necessary to change the world.
And remember, this is just one example, so if your response is, well who cares if the zone is all rainbows and sunshine, or doom and gloom, there would be hundreds of other things in the world you could change, so if you weren't interested in that, you could concentrate on something else.
I think what youre touching on here is the moldable ( for lack of a better word) world. I mean in the end having the world change as the group accomplishes things or the entire server for that matter, is that carrot every player dreams of having. We saw this done with the AQ instance in WOW - opening the gate, which basically became a grind mats fest on the server for a while.
This did, however, motivate some guilds to offer bounties for stacks of bandages and other mass producable items. So for a short time there was a genuine player to player economy, I want this and will pay XX amount for those crafted items. It provided a mass demand for goods that could not be met by an entire server over night....
Maybe something along those lines that required cooperation and long time frames to accomplish.... Subtle and Dramatic achievements that make your server unique from all others. Add them in layers and in connected ways that assure that no one server would be exactly the same as the other. Some of them linear and others webbed and branch tiered to vary the roll out... Certain achievements that cause others to open in varying and changeable ways... Make the reward system and the world changes unique based on the way in which each goal set was met? Virtually assuring that all servers would be forever unique...
We can go that way into the elf lands, sire! Why not? Because our world lacks the crafting expertise to create the bridge required to span the chasm Sir, of course. We will be forced to walk around. I hope you didnt have much on the calendar this evening as this road is filled with ROUS's and other nasties to fight along the way... If only we had a bridge!
For me never knowing how the world might be changed through events is that ever elusive carrot-on-a-stick. Imagine a world where IRONFORGE was over run with Orcs and Goblins and the surrounding lands lay in waste.... And thats just how that server ended up? How awesome would that be to log into every night?
I mean the design possibilities abound on this level... Making some of the stuff mundane and easter eggish and expanding all the way to a new continent to travel onto and explore... High mountain passes that shortcut you across to a much needed destination... Miners have discovered a pass that leads across the mountains to destination ( insert name here) and thats just how that server was?
Add a random opener for these quests and change events and random mats required, random results and you have evolving worlds. In evolving worlds people develop a sense of ownership and that inspires role play more than any other single factor, IMHO, of course.
Sounds like you want to be the GM instead of playing the actual game as a character. Especially if you want to control the atmosphere of an entire area.
Also, I think, leaving out NPC's would make the game incredibly dull not vibrant and thriving. I have enjoyed crafting, at times, with my characters, but I would not pay a monthly fee to be merchant 'c' in the corner stall that sells +1 muffins all day. The flip side would be stalls with wares to buy but no player to interact with.
I don't really see the point with deleting all NPC's. I would like to see more variation with NPC's though.
Why can’t we have NPCs that give random quest and canceling quests can make you loose levels and gold?
By random quests I mean that the quest will not be identical for two players on a single day of this game. Also NPCs should be moving characters and you have to meet them on roads or towns and inns to actually get a quest to get levels and good rewards.
Apart from this questing the game world should be made to open up and the wide world should be left for players to explore. A proper mixture of high and low level monsters also the mixture of hard and easy monsters should be granted.
NPCs should also be able to join a party and conduct a quest of their own where your sole objective is to keep the NPC alive either by killing monsters or by healing it.
NPCs can be challenged at all given times and also can be killed for rewards and loot. In turn an NPC can kill you and loot your stuff which you later have to buy from that NPC.
NPC’s quest chain completion percentage should give additional access into NPCs inventory where you can buy good stuff at cheap rate. Similarly you can make sells to NPCs of some products and thus make game gold dependent on your relationship with the NPC. This concept is however taken from City Of Heroes.
There should be low ranked NPCs sending you to higher rank NPCs if you choose to do a party quest.
Over-all I mean a particular NPC need to be a suspense and a different experience for different players and not the same routine quest chain that takes away the thrill of gaming.
Cheers
Sourajit Nandi
" Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't play this or that. That's nonsense. Make up your mind,and you'll never whine or repent about gaming hours anymore, then have a go at every Game. Open up the Internet, join in all the Mmorpgs you can. Go make the Guild. But never, never let them persuade you that things are too difficult or impossible. "
Once An Addict Always An Addict .
No, that is not the ultimate goal of MMO"s, to get rid of NPC's. NPC's make the standard MMORPG playable. Without them, the standard MMORPG would be horribly tedious.
I'm saying get rid of the NPC's, but if you do that, you can't have a standard MMORPG. It will have to be something different.
Something, is to general to respond to. You have to give some more hints of what you want different than just empty the environment of todays MMORPGS. How would you create a storyline. How would you make it interesting at all. I mean some imagination is required to create an intereting game. Leaving that only to the players implies that there always will have to be imginative people around online. There is a reason not everybody becomes an author etc.. It is so easy to remove. But to add you need to be creative beyond average.
I'm open to suggestions, and I think there are more ways than one to accomplish this objective.
My suggestion would be to give the players as many ways as possible to change the game world.
I'll give just one example. Let's say you could change the atmosphere of an entire zone. What it looks like, what sort of mobs spawn, whether it stays dark all the time or has a night and day cycle. Let's say you could make this particular zone look like a happy place with butterflies, sunshine, and fairies. OR, you could make it dark and foreboding, with constant fog that obscured the sun, and dead people impaled and screaming all over the place. You can come up with the mechanics, construct a device, sacrifice so many animal skins, pay so much gold, gather 100 players around the old oak tree to do a magic dance, take over the sacred well and throw dragons blood in it, gather so many 4 leaf clovers, whatever. Maybe you have to do all of those things.
Now, here's the difference between that example, and your standard MMORPG. In your standard MMORPG, some NPC tells you a story about why you need to do a quest. And if you don't do this quest, the entire zone is going to turn into hell on earth, with fog that blots out the sun, and people impaled and dying everywhere.
But we both know that whether you do the quest or not, nothing is actually going to happen to the zone. What really happens, is the zone stays the same, and you do the quest and the NPC says what a hero you are, and rewards you with +2 boots of crappiness.
Then someone else comes along, gets the same story, the zone stays the same whether they take the quest or not, and if they do the quest, they get the same boots of crappiness.
The difference is, there's no NPC to tell you a story which is meaningless, since nothing happens whether you read hte story or not, unless you consider getting boots of crappiness as something happening.
Instead, you can actually change the game world, and YOU get to make up the story about why you want to do it, and how you will convince other players to go along with you. Not everyone has to be creative, or an author, many people can simply respond to those that are story tellers that come up with soemthing to motivate them to take the actions necessary to change the world.
And remember, this is just one example, so if your response is, well who cares if the zone is all rainbows and sunshine, or doom and gloom, there would be hundreds of other things in the world you could change, so if you weren't interested in that, you could concentrate on something else.
I think what youre touching on here is the moldable ( for lack of a better word) world. I mean in the end having the world change as the group accomplishes things or the entire server for that matter, is that carrot every player dreams of having. We saw this done with the AQ instance in WOW - opening the gate, which basically became a grind mats fest on the server for a while.
This did, however, motivate some guilds to offer bounties for stacks of bandages and other mass producable items. So for a short time there was a genuine player to player economy, I want this and will pay XX amount for those crafted items. It provided a mass demand for goods that could not be met by an entire server over night....
Maybe something along those lines that required cooperation and long time frames to accomplish.... Subtle and Dramatic achievements that make your server unique from all others. Add them in layers and in connected ways that assure that no one server would be exactly the same as the other. Some of them linear and others webbed and branch tiered to vary the roll out... Certain achievements that cause others to open in varying and changeable ways... Make the reward system and the world changes unique based on the way in which each goal set was met? Virtually assuring that all servers would be forever unique...
We can go that way into the elf lands, sire! Why not? Because our world lacks the crafting expertise to create the bridge required to span the chasm Sir, of course. We will be forced to walk around. I hope you didnt have much on the calendar this evening as this road is filled with ROUS's and other nasties to fight along the way... If only we had a bridge!
For me never knowing how the world might be changed through events is that ever elusive carrot-on-a-stick. Imagine a world where IRONFORGE was over run with Orcs and Goblins and the surrounding lands lay in waste.... And thats just how that server ended up? How awesome would that be to log into every night?
I mean the design possibilities abound on this level... Making some of the stuff mundane and easter eggish and expanding all the way to a new continent to travel onto and explore... High mountain passes that shortcut you across to a much needed destination... Miners have discovered a pass that leads across the mountains to destination ( insert name here) and thats just how that server was?
Add a random opener for these quests and change events and random mats required, random results and you have evolving worlds. In evolving worlds people develop a sense of ownership and that inspires role play more than any other single factor, IMHO, of course.
Yes, what you describe is what I'm talking about. I think it would make for a very dynamic world.
However, you can't have "unique" servers, although I get your drift. All servers have to be the same, or else it's to hard to manage teh code for each server.
What I mean is this. In DAoC for example, each server could be different because of which of the three factions controlled each "Keep". However the keeps were all in the same place on each server.
So, each server could be different, in that the bridge might be built, or it might not, but the same bridge could be built, or destroyed in the same spot on every server.
No, I wouldn't be the Game Master at all. Changing the atmosphere of an entire zone couldn't be done by one player. You'd need a large group of players, probably a guild, or several guilds working together. However, I would include things that a single player could change in the world.
I suppose we could have NPC's, but I would still say that the NPC's wouldn't give out any quests.
If you want to craft, then give all your +1 muffins to an NPC to sell for you, I suppose that wouldn't hurt anything. If you needed more ingredients for your muffins, I suppose you could give an NPC 10 gold pieces, and have him buy muffin spice from players at 10 copper per muffin spice, till he ran out of gold.
How's that?
And instead of making muffins, how would you like to craft something that changed the game world? For example, a ferry boat that crossed a previously impassable river. Or, perhaps a giant statue of The God of Cooking, that gave everyone in that zone +10 cooking skill.
I don't really have any good ideas for your original question because I think there is no solution as long as the interface between people is trhough a 2d screen over the internet.
As far as NPC's go... I believe they add to the "world" feeling.
The world would certainly not be the same without KS'ing, wandering guards, or Fippy Darkpaw making a suicide run every five minutes... or Dorn B'Dynn getting lose!
No, that is not the ultimate goal of MMO"s, to get rid of NPC's. NPC's make the standard MMORPG playable. Without them, the standard MMORPG would be horribly tedious.
I'm saying get rid of the NPC's, but if you do that, you can't have a standard MMORPG. It will have to be something different.
Something, is to general to respond to. You have to give some more hints of what you want different than just empty the environment of todays MMORPGS. How would you create a storyline. How would you make it interesting at all. I mean some imagination is required to create an intereting game. Leaving that only to the players implies that there always will have to be imginative people around online. There is a reason not everybody becomes an author etc.. It is so easy to remove. But to add you need to be creative beyond average.
I'm open to suggestions, and I think there are more ways than one to accomplish this objective.
My suggestion would be to give the players as many ways as possible to change the game world.
I'll give just one example. Let's say you could change the atmosphere of an entire zone. What it looks like, what sort of mobs spawn, whether it stays dark all the time or has a night and day cycle. Let's say you could make this particular zone look like a happy place with butterflies, sunshine, and fairies. OR, you could make it dark and foreboding, with constant fog that obscured the sun, and dead people impaled and screaming all over the place. You can come up with the mechanics, construct a device, sacrifice so many animal skins, pay so much gold, gather 100 players around the old oak tree to do a magic dance, take over the sacred well and throw dragons blood in it, gather so many 4 leaf clovers, whatever. Maybe you have to do all of those things.
Now, here's the difference between that example, and your standard MMORPG. In your standard MMORPG, some NPC tells you a story about why you need to do a quest. And if you don't do this quest, the entire zone is going to turn into hell on earth, with fog that blots out the sun, and people impaled and dying everywhere.
But we both know that whether you do the quest or not, nothing is actually going to happen to the zone. What really happens, is the zone stays the same, and you do the quest and the NPC says what a hero you are, and rewards you with +2 boots of crappiness.
Then someone else comes along, gets the same story, the zone stays the same whether they take the quest or not, and if they do the quest, they get the same boots of crappiness.
The difference is, there's no NPC to tell you a story which is meaningless, since nothing happens whether you read hte story or not, unless you consider getting boots of crappiness as something happening.
Instead, you can actually change the game world, and YOU get to make up the story about why you want to do it, and how you will convince other players to go along with you. Not everyone has to be creative, or an author, many people can simply respond to those that are story tellers that come up with soemthing to motivate them to take the actions necessary to change the world.
And remember, this is just one example, so if your response is, well who cares if the zone is all rainbows and sunshine, or doom and gloom, there would be hundreds of other things in the world you could change, so if you weren't interested in that, you could concentrate on something else.
I think what youre touching on here is the moldable ( for lack of a better word) world. I mean in the end having the world change as the group accomplishes things or the entire server for that matter, is that carrot every player dreams of having. We saw this done with the AQ instance in WOW - opening the gate, which basically became a grind mats fest on the server for a while.
This did, however, motivate some guilds to offer bounties for stacks of bandages and other mass producable items. So for a short time there was a genuine player to player economy, I want this and will pay XX amount for those crafted items. It provided a mass demand for goods that could not be met by an entire server over night....
Maybe something along those lines that required cooperation and long time frames to accomplish.... Subtle and Dramatic achievements that make your server unique from all others. Add them in layers and in connected ways that assure that no one server would be exactly the same as the other. Some of them linear and others webbed and branch tiered to vary the roll out... Certain achievements that cause others to open in varying and changeable ways... Make the reward system and the world changes unique based on the way in which each goal set was met? Virtually assuring that all servers would be forever unique...
We can go that way into the elf lands, sire! Why not? Because our world lacks the crafting expertise to create the bridge required to span the chasm Sir, of course. We will be forced to walk around. I hope you didnt have much on the calendar this evening as this road is filled with ROUS's and other nasties to fight along the way... If only we had a bridge!
For me never knowing how the world might be changed through events is that ever elusive carrot-on-a-stick. Imagine a world where IRONFORGE was over run with Orcs and Goblins and the surrounding lands lay in waste.... And thats just how that server ended up? How awesome would that be to log into every night?
I mean the design possibilities abound on this level... Making some of the stuff mundane and easter eggish and expanding all the way to a new continent to travel onto and explore... High mountain passes that shortcut you across to a much needed destination... Miners have discovered a pass that leads across the mountains to destination ( insert name here) and thats just how that server was?
Add a random opener for these quests and change events and random mats required, random results and you have evolving worlds. In evolving worlds people develop a sense of ownership and that inspires role play more than any other single factor, IMHO, of course.
Yes, what you describe is what I'm talking about. I think it would make for a very dynamic world.
However, you can't have "unique" servers, although I get your drift. All servers have to be the same, or else it's to hard to manage teh code for each server.
What I mean is this. In DAoC for example, each server could be different because of which of the three factions controlled each "Keep". However the keeps were all in the same place on each server.
So, each server could be different, in that the bridge might be built, or it might not, but the same bridge could be built, or destroyed in the same spot on every server.
I think if such a game came out it would surpass all the hype about this game and that game being ground breaking new, setting new standards and all the usual clichés. By the simple fact that all other games would look old and static compared to this. Of course under the conditions that the graphics are good enough, that it is stable and bug freeand with good costumer support. The only thing I miss is the overall story. A good story adds depth to the game as a whole. It's more interesting to build a bridge as a part of an interesting epic than to just build a bridge to cross any river. I look forward to the first time I find the artifact needed or kill the responsible mob and that actually makes the claimed evil disappear, and the former devistated area or city regain life seen as a total visable change of the game environment.
No. The ultimate goal of MMOs are creating entertaining multi-player games. No many really want to role-play. All we want is a enjoyable game, hack-n-slash & what-not.
RP is just a label now. All the action RPGs have nothing to do with real RP. Even the bioware story driven RPGs are not about RP but about stories. RP is pretty much dead.
No, I wouldn't be the Game Master at all. Changing the atmosphere of an entire zone couldn't be done by one player. You'd need a large group of players, probably a guild, or several guilds working together. However, I would include things that a single player could change in the world.
I suppose we could have NPC's, but I would still say that the NPC's wouldn't give out any quests.
If you want to craft, then give all your +1 muffins to an NPC to sell for you, I suppose that wouldn't hurt anything. If you needed more ingredients for your muffins, I suppose you could give an NPC 10 gold pieces, and have him buy muffin spice from players at 10 copper per muffin spice, till he ran out of gold.
How's that?
And instead of making muffins, how would you like to craft something that changed the game world? For example, a ferry boat that crossed a previously impassable river. Or, perhaps a giant statue of The God of Cooking, that gave everyone in that zone +10 cooking skill.
Actually, if I were to design a game, I would leave in the NPC's make them more dynamic (multiple endings to quests and certain endings generating new quests and such). I would also hire actual GM's (not just CS reps with a GM cap on) that would be required to create and implement events and storylines in the world on a regular basis. Ideally this would be every weekend - but at least once a month to start. For example, when the giants would suddenly attack the dwarf city in EQ or the undead event. The undead was even better as there were unique mobs in several zones, but also a quest players had to solve in order to end the event. I know it would require a lot of work to pull off on a far more regular basis than current holiday events (that are fun but extremely shallow) but I think with a well made game it's entirely possible and marketable.
You are correct in a sense that both D&D and Warhammer were origionally released as miniature based wargames, but the choice of Warhammer is a bad one being that Warhammer was released in 1988 and D&D was released in 1974.
The first games listed as RPG's were in 1978: AD&D and Tunnels and Trolls both were advertised as roleplaying games. Given that AD&D is very different from Chainmail (the first incarnation of D&D) and even the basic set, I would say you are a wee bit inacurate.
As far as removing NPCs from MMO's as the OP suggests, the fact is a company would have to get players to be the NPCs. I simply don't see that working out too well on a large scale. Who would want to sit around, logged on for hours, simply to be a quest giver or a personality in a bar? The fact is, the MMO would have to pay folks as employees to ensure good RP and quality.
The reason a GM for a table top game can do it is he only has to showcase a very small number of NPCs (usually one or two at a time) in any given situation. MMO's would need thousands all at once for all the folks scattered across the realm and at different level/skill categories.
There are games like Second Life that role players use as a platform and do all the roles themselves, but such endeavors require substantial commitment amongst the players-- far more than one who simply wants to log on and play a bit would want to.
Till AI hits the point of simulating personality, I just don't see it.
I don't understand how or why you come to this conclusion.
There would be no one sitting around, logged in to be the "quest giver". There would be no quest giver, period.
I think if such a game came out it would surpass all the hype about this game and that game being ground breaking new, setting new standards and all the usual clichés. By the simple fact that all other games would look old and static compared to this. Of course under the conditions that the graphics are good enough, that it is stable and bug freeand with good costumer support. The only thing I miss is the overall story. A good story adds depth to the game as a whole. It's more interesting to build a bridge as a part of an interesting epic than to just build a bridge to cross any river. I look forward to the first time I find the artifact needed or kill the responsible mob and that actually makes the claimed evil disappear, and the former devistated area or city regain life seen as a total visable change of the game environment.
When games hav e dynamic features, the players create the story, and that becomes the world history.
For an example, you can look at EVE. Corporations have histories of take overs, great victories in battle, and betrayals.
Building your bridge could be done for many reasons. Perhaps the bridge is built for war, so you can more easily attack the faction across the river. Perhaps the bridge is built for trade, so you can more easily trade with teh faction across the river.
Perhaps there are no factions involved, and the community comes together to build the bridge because it opens up a previously unaccessed zone with new mobs, new resources, etc.
Those sorts of things intrigue me much more than the made up lore about a game, but I know I may be in a minority, and some people get into reading lore, sort of like reading a book.
I suppose you could always add that stuff too, after all it's just stories so make up all you want, and attatch it to the game, there's no harm in it. I, however, would ignore it since it has no bearing on my character.
What is real is the bridge can be built, or destroyed. Why do I care about a made up story about it by the game developers? Build the bridge because the gods of xyz built a temple, adn long ago a priestess was murdered on the bridge causing it to be destroyed, which angered the gods because acolytes couldn't access the temple, and blah, blah, blah. Why do I care? Make up whatever you want, it changes nothing.
No matter what "epic" story you make up, how does that change the game in any way, or the game world?
I don't understand how or why you come to this conclusion.
There would be no one sitting around, logged in to be the "quest giver". There would be no quest giver, period.
Very simple. The GM in a table top RPG creates the setting and provides the main drive for the stories and adventures. He does this via monsters, world events, points of interest, and most commonly, NPC's.
In a computer game, MMO or single player, the GM's part is played by the computer as designed by the devs. To be sure, in a PnP game, the players take up the story and affect the world, but it is almost always under the watchful eye of the GM. Even very fun minded, and player-centric GMs (Like me) have to crack down on or redirect player activities, ideas and actions to preserve not only the story and the setting, but for the game's over all health and fun. Again, the MMO's ruleset and scripting does all this, with occasional GM moderation thrown in on the better games.
Sounds you want a free for all setting with no programmed events from the server's side as it would all be done via the players. THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE!!! It is called Second Life, and I can assure as a SL player for 3 years the results are dubious at best. The problems with this are fundamental.
For instance, who inforces a decision, especially if a group of players aren't happy with an outcome? In Second Life RPG's, this is done by GM or a "head group" of players which brings up near constant issues of bias and drama. How does one portray an elf? My version of one could be way off from yours, and as a result the world's internal consistancy will be shot (In Internet RPGs and SL, you simply get booted for playing "wrong"). And if you really want a headache, consider power and magic systems and all the ideas folks have about those. Most of the SL RP groups fold after mere weeks, and the very few that have lasted over a year do so via very tight regulation and control which greatly hinders their ability to grow and recruit new players (and most folks don't find it fun). In short, the free-for -all, no computer or GM control systems has a 99% failure rate.
What if the guy who kicked off the adventure isn't on? Or, what about a player who the scenario centers around isn't on, leaving the group to figure out something else to do while he is gone. Of course, he invariably shows up (logs on) when the others have committed to a course of play without him. This is very common enough in PnP games, and can be game/story breakers and is starting to rear its ugly head in MMO's (Can't run the instance, Fred ain't here).
Now multiply these problems by the number of players you have... yeah...
It is these things that cause the need for a GM in PnP RPG's and programmed scripts in computer games. In short, someone has to enforce the system and establish the rules and then be fair.. no, make that harsh ...about certain aspects and there enforcement. That means there has to be NPC fixtures in place. The most commonly overlooked of these is the Shopkeepers, Inkeeps, medical personel, watchmen, etc. Who is gonna play those guys? In MMO's, the answer has been via scripted NPCs because that is the easiest and most effective. In PnP games, persistant NPC's exist too.. ALL played by the GM. And I will tell you, letting a player take over role of watchman, banker, King, etc can be a recipe for unbalance, abuse, bias and general mayhem. That is why another name for a GM is "Game Judge".
In SL, you can get jobs... mostly camper, dancer, DJ, escort, and security (what a joke) jobs that pay in game currency. The key here is "Pay" because Lindens = real US dollars. I am pretty sure folks would not do nearly as much work for nothing of value. To be sure, you will have those who will RP a dancer, like in SWG, but the vast majority won't, or if they do, will simply shirk their duties once the "job" gets boring. I mean, why RP a guardsman for 8 hours a day when one can get a REAL LIFE job for the same amount of time and make REAL money? In short, you will need an incentive to keep the players in the game providing the humdrum services and roles that static NPCs do in both PnP and MMO RPGs.
Sometimes, you simply need a GM (or computer) to make folks do something, usually via NPCs, otherwise they will sit around and say the game is boring. No matter how rich a world is there for them, without prodding (called a script in both PnP and electronic games) the players sit about moaning and whining how boring the game is. And Yes, that is complaint numero uno for SL...
Now, one could take a cue from Never Winter Nights where the game provides the rules, and power structure, but where budding GM's and designers can design worlds, dungeons, critters and NPC's within the game's allowed ruleset that is uniquely their own... but I don't think that is what you want, being as the NPCs and monsters are still computer or GM controlled in that case.
You ask how i came to this conclusion? IDK, maybe it could be 30 years of PnP GM experience and almost as much time on computer games of all genres... I still hold to my assertion that this will only happen when computer software itself learns to roleplay... but yeah, this just be my opinion.:-)
I don't understand how or why you come to this conclusion.
There would be no one sitting around, logged in to be the "quest giver". There would be no quest giver, period.
Very simple. The GM in a table top RPG creates the setting and provides the main drive for the stories and adventures. He does this via monsters, world events, points of interest, and most commonly, NPC's.
In a computer game, MMO or single player, the GM's part is played by the computer as designed by the devs. To be sure, in a PnP game, the players take up the story and affect the world, but it is almost always under the watchful eye of the GM. Even very fun minded, and player-centric GMs (Like me) have to crack down on or redirect player activities, ideas and actions to preserve not only the story and the setting, but for the game's over all health and fun. Again, the MMO's ruleset and scripting does all this, with occasional GM moderation thrown in on the better games.
Sounds you want a free for all setting with no programmed events from the server's side as it would all be done via the players. THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE!!! It is called Second Life, and I can assure as a SL player for 3 years the results are dubious at best. The problems with this are fundamental.
For instance, who inforces a decision, especially if a group of players aren't happy with an outcome? In Second Life RPG's, this is done by GM or a "head group" of players which brings up near constant issues of bias and drama. How does one portray an elf? My version of one could be way off from yours, and as a result the world's internal consistancy will be shot (In Internet RPGs and SL, you simply get booted for playing "wrong"). And if you really want a headache, consider power and magic systems and all the ideas folks have about those. Most of the SL RP groups fold after mere weeks, and the very few that have lasted over a year do so via very tight regulation and control which greatly hinders their ability to grow and recruit new players (and most folks don't find it fun). In short, the free-for -all, no computer or GM control systems has a 99% failure rate.
What if the guy who kicked off the adventure isn't on? Or, what about a player who the scenario centers around isn't on, leaving the group to figure out something else to do while he is gone. Of course, he invariably shows up (logs on) when the others have committed to a course of play without him. This is very common enough in PnP games, and can be game/story breakers and is starting to rear its ugly head in MMO's (Can't run the instance, Fred ain't here).
Now multiply these problems by the number of players you have... yeah...
It is these things that cause the need for a GM in PnP RPG's and programmed scripts in computer games. In short, someone has to enforce the system and establish the rules and then be fair.. no, make that harsh ...about certain aspects and there enforcement. That means there has to be NPC fixtures in place. The most commonly overlooked of these is the Shopkeepers, Inkeeps, medical personel, watchmen, etc. Who is gonna play those guys? In MMO's, the answer has been via scripted NPCs because that is the easiest and most effective. In PnP games, persistant NPC's exist too.. ALL played by the GM. And I will tell you, letting a player take over role of watchman, banker, King, etc can be a recipe for unbalance, abuse, bias and general mayhem. That is why another name for a GM is "Game Judge".
In SL, you can get jobs... mostly camper, dancer, DJ, escort, and security (what a joke) jobs that pay in game currency. The key here is "Pay" because Lindens = real US dollars. I am pretty sure folks would not do nearly as much work for nothing of value. To be sure, you will have those who will RP a dancer, like in SWG, but the vast majority won't, or if they do, will simply shirk their duties once the "job" gets boring. I mean, why RP a guardsman for 8 hours a day when one can get a REAL LIFE job for the same amount of time and make REAL money? In short, you will need an incentive to keep the players in the game providing the humdrum services and roles that static NPCs do in both PnP and MMO RPGs.
Sometimes, you simply need a GM (or computer) to make folks do something, usually via NPCs, otherwise they will sit around and say the game is boring. No matter how rich a world is there for them, without prodding (called a script in both PnP and electronic games) the players sit about moaning and whining how boring the game is. And Yes, that is complaint numero uno for SL...
Now, one could take a cue from Never Winter Nights where the game provides the rules, and power structure, but where budding GM's and designers can design worlds, dungeons, critters and NPC's within the game's allowed ruleset that is uniquely their own... but I don't think that is what you want, being as the NPCs and monsters are still computer or GM controlled in that case.
You ask how i came to this conclusion? IDK, maybe it could be 30 years of PnP GM experience and almost as much time on computer games of all genres... I still hold to my assertion that this will only happen when computer software itself learns to roleplay... but yeah, this just be my opinion.:-)
I think you're off the mark. The game I described would be nothing like Second Life. Players would not be able to make their own models, so your suggestion that there would be arguments over what an elf looks like are moot.
In Second Life, there is no game. The players make up any game they want, which is mostly having cyber sex in some wierd form or another. You are right, there are no rules, it's chaos, and Second Life has Zero appeal for me.
The game I'm describing is a coherent world. The models are all made by the developers, not the players. The game mechanics are all made by the developers, not the players.
I'm not suggesting anyone has to play GAME MASTER, and make up a neat story, with a beginning, middle, and end, adn that there will be no fun if you can't find a GAME MASTER to play with when you log on.
I am saying that instead, the game would have objectives. Hundreds of different things you could change about the game world. Some of those things could be done solo. Some would require a group of 5 or 6 players, and some would require what might be described as a raid group.
Or, some objectives might be hard, if not impossible to do alone, but could be accomplished by a guild over time.
Going back to the bridge example, it may require 10,000 pieces of "wood" to build the bridge, along with killing 3,000 kobolds. As a player, you could log on and contribute one piece of wood to the project, or kill one kobold, making the bridge a little closer to completion. You could do this solo, but contribute to a group effort.
Or, you could work towards defeating construction of the bridge.
Keep in mind, this is only one example, and if you don't care about the bridge, there would be hundreds of other things you could choose to work on.
There is no GAME MASTER to tell you a story about why you should build the bridge or work against it. There are game mechanics that change the world, and you decide how you want the world to be, and make your decisions accordingly.
How the players decide to change the world becomes the story, not something made up by NPC dialog, or a GAME MASTER.
Instead of standing around reading stories from NPC 's, you would engage your fellow players. What's going on, should we build a bridge, or destroy it, what are you working on, what is available to do in this area, do you want to build a bridge with me, do you want to help me destroy it, why should I help you, etc.
There is no Game MAster required, and it is not like Second Life. The only place you can build the bridge or destroy it, is wehre the Developers strategically place the bridge. You can't just decide you want to be a flying teddy bear in the cloud palace of Atlantis having furry sex, like in Second Life. Those game mechanics would not exist, and you could not put them into t5he game.
>I think you're off the mark. The game I described would be nothing like Second Life.<
Fair enough. :-)
What initiated my observations is I read the original post in the thread with the idea that the static NPCs are to be removed entirely and all non mobs are played by players. I still see a Second Life style failure in that.
As far as no GM, you are missing the point. GM's do way more than just kick off a story. They administer the game, create non player content, role play all that which the players do not, enforce rules, establish the setting and it's parameters, determine rewards and penalties and so on. In any computer game, the role of GM is played by the software itself. That is what I mean by GM. The Dev are the GM. The software is the GM. The voice of the Devs and their stories and setting is most commonly done via NPCs. In a PnP game a person does all that (the GM) but the role is the same. Seems we just see things a little differently is all.
I can see the appeal of what you are trying to do. Unlike the idea of getting rid of all NPCs, you are simply advocating free-form questing that doesn't require some guy to tell you to kill 20 gnolls and bring back 20 paws (and we know that every gnoll DOESN'T have two paws...lol) so that a laser can be built. You want a game world where any player can initiate a quest or objective that contributes to the overall growth and story of the setting. On that, you and I agree.:-)
I do see a few obstacles that must be overcome, however. Using your bridge example, what would be the reason to build it in the first place? Would the game say "a bridge needs to go here", or will the players simply decide that "this is a good spot for a bridge"?
If it is the latter, you may have a problem of getting the players motivated (especially after the game's newness has worn off). The GM, or scripted event software in this case, is what provides the impetus. An example would be if the bridge isn't built than the kobolds will overrun the stronghold due to its not being able to be supplied. But even here, a bit of software has to take the role of GM and make the kobolds attack, unless the other players ARE the kobolds, but wow, I can hear the complaints of griefing now.
Likewise, the players need some reward beyond just getting it built. This is especially true if the bridge, or the stronghold it serves, is owned by another player or guild. Such would cause good ol' human nature to rear it's ugly head and say, "what's in it for me?" And if current MMO guilds are an indication, the answer is more often or not, "Nothing, unless you are the guild leader's friend." Simply earning rep or XP is not enough, especially if those can be earned another way.
The other drawback is the very simple fact if the folks who are spearheading the bridge building effort are simply not on, or if they keep changing things mid stream? The fact is, if I contribute by giving wood, but no one sees it, then what is the point? And what if my contribution simply gets blown off? You can bet I won't help THEM again and if it happens too much, I simply stop playing that game altogether.
The problem of a game for players by players is the other players... A MMO's greatest strength is not its graphics, gameplay or engine, but its community; the kicker is, that the community is also its greatest weakness Your idea would be more of a slave to community than any previous MMO... a crapshoot to be sure... but if it works...
All that said, I see good potential in your approach. :-)
Say, isn't there a browser based game that is similar what you are describing? I cannot remember its name, but MMORPG.com did an article on it a couple of months back. The article featured examples of game play that was very similar to your bridge building example complete with attacking mobs. If I remember the article, the game was like SL in a way, but with structure and MMO type rules. Some folks liked it a lot, but most found it not focused enough and somewhat boring.
Though, the idea that a creative GM like person could take a patch of MMO real estate and build a unique setting (within the game's parameters to preserve balance and flavor) would be cool. I wonder how many folks would take advantage of that, being that creativity is pretty rare despite folks having interest in imaginitive play.
The players could not just build a bridge anywhere, to stick with that example. There would be pre-determined spots where you could build a bridge.
It would not matter who initiated the bridge building. Anyone could do it. you would not need anyone to recognize your contribution. It's not a raid with a guild, and you hope the guild leader rewards you. You would get the normal xp reward, like most mMORPGs.
The additional reward would be the bridge itself. It might be a shortcut that saves you time every time you leave the city. It might lead to a new and interesting zone. It might lead to a vulnerable spot to attack the faction across the river. It might give you access to materials that allow you to craft unique items. It might do all those things, and more.
If none of that inspires you to contribute to the bridge, then you do something else, and you don't work on the bridge.
It's a game mechanic, not a game master. It's just a trigger than can be flipped ON or OFF , by any player in the game.
A guild could organize people so it gets done fast, but any player could work on it, with or without a guild.
And you could work against the bridge being built, or work to tear it down if that's what you wanted to do.
I would envision some of these tasks could stand alone, while others could be inter related. Some players would play the micro game, and some players would play the macro game.
You need to build the bridge to open the zone across the river, which gives you access to the mine, but you have to do a bunch of stuff to open the mine just like you had to build the bridge, then you can use items from teh mine to build a pyramid, which gives you the ability to make a fire protection spell, which lets you climb deep into a volcano so you can get the items needed to build flaming swords.
Some players will see the big picture, and work towards the ultimate goal of that branch of tasks, flaming swords, by starting with the bridge.
Other players will just wack some kobolds, which contributes to building the bridge, even if they don't realize it.
That's just one example, and there would be hundreds of things like this to work on. What good are flaming swords? You can use them to kill Yetis, and if you get enough Yeti fur you can.....
Well, it just goes on and on. But YOU decide what you want to do to change the game world, you don't just do quests for NPCs that never affect anything.
You see a players with a flaming sword, adn you say, how did you get that? His answer is, well, first you ahve to build a bridge...
He doesn't say, go click on that NPC, scroll through the dialog till you get the quest, then go kill some mobs, run back to him, and he'll give you a flaming sword. Oh, and he'll tell you some story about a bridge or something, if you want to read it.