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What is a Troll? OR: how to reply in forum threads
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
First, my apologies to the moderators, but I felt a debate about this was important enough to no let it vanish in some forum part with less attention. I guess I am not the only one who feels some people drag this forum down to a level where it becomes difficult to keep a debate which makes sense. I dont even go so far to say most do this on evil purpose, on the contrary, I am sure most people are not really aware of the damage they do.
Debating and discussing are vital parts of a civilized person and a civilized culture. Its the root of society and democracy and without that skill a society will fall into barbary. Now sure, here we have not very vital topics, namely gaming, but we must keep learning and bettering ourselves even in small matters.
Frequently in all kind of forums we see people accused of trolling. It kinda strikes me like a new fashion to name people trolls. Not that there are no trolls, but in the end just going into someone's thread and calling him troll is trolling as well.
Now the goal of language is to produce understanding. You want to make others understand what you say, and vice versa you listen to understand what the other wants to say. That may be either experiences, reports of facts or mere opinion, but it is always some kind of information.
So when someone writes something in a post, the only thing that makes sense is to try to enter a dialogue. The only reasonable, justified thing to reply to anyone is trying to start a dialogue, for thats the purpose of a forum, to speak with others. In order to do that, you must write something to which the poster can reply in any meaningful way, and thats the general rule I try to make to my own postings:
Write in such a way, that the poster can reply in a meaningful way.
Meaningful is, that a dialogue continues. For thats the purpose of a forum, and thats the purpose of language, to make others understand you and so you can understand them. For anything else grunts would be sufficient.
So before you post something the next time, ask yourself: can the poster reply to this in any meaningful way which I could find a satisfying answer, a meaningful continuation of a dialogue?
Now to achieve this we must assume the opinion of the other is geniune, and we dont start to question his sincerity. We cant make any guesswork about the author's motivation, as we often find, because if you are honest with yourself you must admit, you dont know a drat about his motivation. You dont know him personally and you cant read his mind. So dont pretend you can. Guesswork like "you want to bring drama", "you want to show us what expert you are" are just that: guesswork about the posters "real" motivation, and thats a dialogue killer. Speculating about someone's motivation ends any dialogue, for you accuse him of something which he cant proof to be otherwise. How is someone supposed to proof his geniune concern? Thoughts and emotions can't be shown, so you accuse him of something that neither side can ever proof and you kill the dialogue. To such assumptions no one can ever answer in a meaningful way.
The other thing which ends any dialogue is sarcasm. I know its tempting sometimes, but sarcasm and irony are likewise dialogue killers, because nothing meaningful can be answered to mockery.
If you dont assume the poster is reasonable - which does not mean you share his view! - but if you do not expect the other one is geniune, there is no reason to post. Maybe he IS an idiot, fine, but then no reply whatsoever will lead to anything. The only valid, logical reason to reply is, that you accept the other one is genuine and sincere in what he says. For with any other assumption no dialogue will have any result. You will only try to proof to the audience that you are a smartass, and really, if you need that there are better places to get applause.
My suggestion is, make these two rules your guidelines for posting:
(1) Assume the poster is a sane, thinking human being whose post is of personal, genuine value. You dont have to share his view, but you have to respect it. If you dont find you can do this, dont reply.
(2) Write in a way that the poster can continue a meaningful dialogue. Always ask yourself before you post: "Can the poster reply to this in a meanigful way that satisfies me and keeps a dialogue going?"
If the esteemed mods sticky this I am sure we save ourselves all to repeat the same lesson over and over. Given the fact we are mortals with limited time I dont see the logic in trying to solve those basics every few weeks anew. I think all sensitive people would greatly benefit from taking these guidelines.
Thanks for your time.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
The problem is there seems to be so many negative minded people on internet forums , anonymity of being on the internet most certainly doesn't help. Even if peoples posts are short and not that meaningful it really wouldn't be a big deal if it was something positive , it's all the negativity on forums that really detracts from enjoying the forums as well as having more meaningful conversations.
tl;dr
It also has a lot to do with todays society. Were just not the wholesome 1950s Beaver Cleaver generation anymore. Im sure somewhere theres a nice paper thats been written on attitude changes amongst generations of people. If you went back in time, and brought say 10000 people back from 1950, then compared them to 10000 people from today Im sure todays people would seem pretty negative to the 1950's folk.
Frost that cake with the further disconnection people are now subject to as the younger generations spend more and more time online as opposed to being pushed out there to do other social activities (you 1970s kids know what Im talking about, remember "TV rots your brain, go outside and play!")
Lets face it, egos on the internet are out in full force, if someone doesnt like what you say, its on like Donkey Kong. Since theres no real consequence to letting someone have it full in the face, it happens all the time.
http://eqcdb.com/eqcdb/races/troll.asp
this is a troll
Sadly, the purpose of a forum is what you say yes, but the purpose of the forumers is not. Their objective is to agree with the ones that think like them, and to make fun or bash the ones that don't. This is true in the 90% of the posts, if not more.
And a troll now is anyone that doesnt kiss the developer's ass of the game in discussion, as you well know from your experience in the WAR forum here (as I do too).
Nice shrimp, now for the real one from LOTRO the best mmorpg ever made in past/present/future :
http://www.massively.com/photos/one-shots/749257/full/
Why am I not suprised to see Arcken so knowledgeable on the subject?
@op
1. I would say you've got really few trolls (ad hominem attacks are more from haters imo) on mmorpg.com forums but a lot of people calling each others trolls.
2. There is a platoon of haters/fanbois/sincere idiots/clumsy people who post dumb/hysterical posts and are labelled trolls, trolling is done by a smart guy, trolling is a hard and subtle art, a hater/fanboi/idiot speaking out of his heart triggering unconsciously angry replies isn't a troll. You've got the reasonable good guys joining the fight and speaking words of wisdom nilly willy messing things up a bit more, but there was not a hint of trolling in the first place.
3. These forums basically suck as soon as you want to know if these numerous mmorpgs out there are good or bad, you get subjective positive and negative reviews following each others in the same thread, drama queens and people unable to review, compare, analyze properly, and accusations of trolling/fanboyism/hatred flying immediately instead of focussing on the actual points, because that's the only thing left to do when you feel a thread is going the sewers but still want to get some attention. These forums are substantially good imo, read by many young/passionate people so it's a delightful fertile ground for any troll to settle down and start his blooming activity. A noble troll wouldn't care about unsubstantial forums.
4. Once you know the non commercial unbiased professional objective reviews are more easily found outside mmorpg.com forums you'll become very distrustful of any attempt at reviewing here (it's a pity because a lot of intelligent people write here) and you could feel like it's more fun to bash other games than discuss them, don't you love your own echoes in the mountains?
5. Some real trolls post on forums with monthly statistics and their goal is to get the best ratio: one post triggering 50 angry answers, and angry answers generating new angry answers, for instance. Trolls put theory of chaos into practice, enjoy nasty avalanches triggered by their own little fart, eat popcorn, are efficient and straight to the point.
6. You can't recognize a real troll if he's good, he'll own everyone over and over and over again (while people think they actually owned him and made him angry, YOU CAN'T GRIEF A TROLL) with minimal efforts and people will just get more angry and the troll will enjoy it more and more. As a matter of fact a lot of troll victims enjoy getting angry so it's a symbiosis.
7. A troll knows you'll just have to answer him, he anticipates your next move as a Taoist fighter
If I were you I would put up a poll with the basic question : Do you enjoy occasional drama or would you prefer clean informative forums? Maybe the answer would be disappointing.
I always was a great believer in logic and rationality. Now for me its kinda difficult to understand why someone, who thinks some poster is an idiot, even makes the effort to reply. So when I have nothing to say but negative, personal comments, why post? Its illogical, it leads to nothing. Its not that we need to agree on the subject at hand, but so often I see someone posts something, either his opinion or his experience, and a lot of replies dont even bother to reply in the sense of the word. They dont answer to what he says, but they start to specualate about his - usually presumed inferior - motivations. In short, they presume he is either bad or dumb.
Now trying to start to reply to someone in a forum whom you assume to be either bad or dump is illogical. It can not lead to any meaningful dialoge. Not to say IF that person IS bad or dumb, but why reply when you make that assumption? Thats the entire thing where I find people do not think about their way of posting. They assume you are a dumbass, a notorious liar (either as hater or fanboy usually).
If I assue you are a blind fanboy or a blind hater, why waste the time and talk to him at all? It makes no sense. Dialogue makes sense when I accept the other means what he says, when I actually LISTEN and reply to what he says and not reply to what I suspect him what I interpret what he said.
The typical example is, someone says a certain feature in a MMO is not how he likes it. Say "WAR has not enough character customization". Now one calls him a hater, who wants to slander WAR. Now there can only be two logical cases. (1) Its true and he really wants to slander the game. If so, then it does not make any sense to reply to him, for his mission is slandering WAR and dialogue is not possible. Or (2) His concern is serious and geniune, then I can start a meaningful dialoge either saying (a) I agree because XYZ or (b) I disagree because ABC... There are no logical alternatives. It has nothing to do with a person liking me or what, its simple logical deduction of the choices. Sorry if it sounds a bit dry.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
It is still pretty sad though, Even with the anonymous essence that goes about on the forums, An idiot still stands out like a tree in a desert. And the fact that it is all cyber makes it even more pointless to be a jackass. Either way, I have never met an individual who uses forumes in a negative manner to be worth there salt IRL, Although there are a few people who are pretty aggressive that i respect IRL, but they are only foul because of the forum they belong to, which most of the time, they get wasted and THEN chat lol.
Most are a bunch of skinny boys who cant defend themselves IRL. I have met quite a few at some conventions over the years. Needless to say, some of the well mannered, or at least well tempered folks are individuals who carry out good lives, some even have hobbies outside the home, and could easily be seen as people who may do forum trolling or being jerks, because they have so much influence IRL, you would expect them to go about using foul behaviour in the forums as well, but it doesnt work that way.
You usually find that most people who are respectable on the forums tend to be people who are really neat people, or just have better things to do than get caught up in a bunch of madness. Like everything else that has been proven in the world, "Lunchroom bullies", Internet "Aholes" Most of them have some sort of problems IRL that they are trying to vent on what they think is the "Weak" but in the forums, you really just dont know. For all you know the person you are talking down on could punch you through a wall IRL. Very few i pressume, but there are quite a few weightlifters benching over 220 that play MMORPGS
With the anonymous aspect thrown to the side, I personally dont bother to get caught up in debates, unless i beleive it has a somehwat meaningful message, and usually if people have a problem with it, i likely ignore the negative posts. Or if i know i with get negative remarks, i will state my opinion and not even bother rechecking the thread. It is a waste of time dealing with children. Anyways thats what i have learned over the years.
qft
Well i think personally it would be really neat if forums started putting some sort of extra incentive to weed out immature posters, and bring in a more sensible crowd, who can disagree, and argue, but at the same time respect the other posting whether they disagree or not. I dont mind the debating, in fact, i enjoy a good debate now and then, as long as the person who i am debating with understands and accepts my view and where i am coming from.
As we all know, MMORPGS bring in a young crowd as well who are often immature, impolite, and abnoxious. I keep trying to figure ways that a forum could provide incentive to keep people in line, not forcefully but something that could keep a better atmosphere. Of course nobody wants to trespass on the 1st amendment. But its been driving me crazy thinking about a method to at least make forums less rampid, and a little more mature.
The word "troll" is thrown around so bloody much that it's basically lost all meaning. It's like a toned down way of calling somebody's mother a whore.
Comments trolls are the bane of most sites; where as the vast majority of people may never comment on a post those that do usually fall into one of three categories.
Legitimate commenters, who have something thoughtful to say and/ or add to the conversation (for and against), link spammers who comment on the off chance they might get some traffic as a consequence of their comment (sometimes these fall into the first category..hard to tell) and trolls, who make it their business to criticize anything written and the people who wrote it, in some sort of sad attempt at self validation by being nasty towards others for the sake of it. Like taking drugs, trolling is a poor mistress that demands more and more to feed the self satisfying addiction that props up their self esteem.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
In short:
A troll - is someone who doesnt like the game you like.
A fanboy - is someone who likes the game you dont like.
Why use so many words for a simple definition ?
A troll is someone posting a post with the intention to provoke an angry/negative responce.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Originally posted by HYPERI0N
Well said.
We encourage people to debate or have there own opinions about something we do not remove posts if someone disagrees with them. We only remove posts that was posted in the sole purpose of getting people mad however sometimes people get mad even if you post your opinion in cases like this mods are required to be natural and work out weather it was posted in intended to wind people up or not.
It can also be a person who likes to aggressively state his opinion over and over in threads. Doesn't give a rest type.
I don't know...you might have been joking, BUT...the funny thing about what you posted here is that SADLY, these HAVE become the meanings of these words on THIS site. The actual, and original, meanings come from forums (NOT gaming forums) that have existed for years and years online, long before there WERE any gaming forums.
The original forum meaning of "troll" was:
Troll: A person who is NOT a regular member or active participant on a forum site, who creates one or more posts (or even starts threads) simply to derail a conversation, plant rumors and misinformation intentionally, or stir up and annoy the regular forum posters.
(Originally, this had nothing to do with conversations about whether someone liked a game you like, etc. This term was used on NEWS site forums from CNN and assorted other forums around the internet that had NOTHING to do with gaming.)
The original forum meaning of "fanboi", did actually begin on gaming forums, if I remember correctly, BUT...it has strayed far from the original meaning:
Fanboi: Someone who BLINDLY follows and praises a game or developer's work, with nothing to back their opinion. Blind devotion to something that is, as of yet, an unknown factor. Belief that said game, company, developer can do absolutely no wrong, even in the face of evidence of problems with said project or developer, a "fanboi" refuses to see anything outside of a glowing reference to their chosen idol.
Now these terms are used exactly in the way the poster I quoted has stated. Amazing.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The troll is the guy in the middle.
http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=297166261cfvxliphwt8.jpg
I think it's all in how you word you criticism / praise. Most people who want to legitimately discuss a feature (or lack thereof) of a game avoid using harsh terms like "sucks", "noob", or "stupid". They would also try not to pass their opinion off as fact. There would probably be a lot less discussions deteriorate into name calling if people would just choose their words more carefully.
An intelligent person is be able to debate either side of a topic. Once somebody has to resort to personal insults it means they have run out of intelligent things to say and should probably just keep their mouth closed.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
QFT!
It can also be a person who likes to aggressively state his opinion over and over in threads. Doesn't give a rest type.
No, this is NOT what a troll is. A troll must have intent. A person agressively stating his opinion can be annoying, but it's just somebody agressively stating their opinion.
It can also be a person who likes to aggressively state his opinion over and over in threads. Doesn't give a rest type.
No, this is NOT what a troll is. A troll must have intent. A person agressively stating his opinion can be annoying, but it's just somebody agressively stating their opinion.
I reaching back to USENET back in the 1980's about how we could see it that way. Not often, but sometimes they are. It's old.
Still, the original way to defeat a troll, is to not respond. Good luck getting that done. People just love to get into it.