Its just kind of borked and they know so they refuse to say anything.
here, they said something:
the post by the customer:
Originally Posted by aetryn View Post
Well, to be fair, we have a lot of abilities that really have not much room to go up. The expansion is already increasing our debuffing ability about as much as I can see happening. If you look at other games with percentage based debuffs, they typically don't scale up much - this is because they are exceptionally powerful as it is. Moria mobs have significant extra Morale, so damage-oriented classes have to get upgrades to even stay at the same level. Even if Moria mobs do significantly more damage, Fire-Lore doesn't need an upgrade to already be more effective - just by fighting harder mobs it's more and more useful.
The same is true of Crowd control. The power level of the monsters is largely irrelevant - blinding flash at 10 is blinding flash at 60 vs even level mobs. Sure, they could give us more Crowd control abilities, but we already have a lot of good tools, and if they give us too much, one of two things will happen: 1) Any content that is strongly dependent on crowd control will be ridiculously trivial with a Lore-master in the group, or 2) Any content that is strongly dependent on crowd control will be nearly impossible without a Lore-master in the group.
What else are they going to give us? They don't want to give us better heals (we'd step on Captains and the real healers). We already have so many little helper abilities I can hardly fit them all on my bar, so I'm not sure we need any more support utilities. We aren't a damage class, so that's out. I guess they could give us some buffs to hand out, but that's not really our calling card either.
To a certain extent the problem here (and on many of the class forums) is overly high expectations for the expansion. It's always a challenge for designers to add exciting new abilities to an existing, complete class. Generally, if an ability is a core part of what that class does and fits the role of the class, they had it as part of their original package. What we and most other classes get in this expansion (and will very likely get in the future) are not usually going to be transformative, exciting abilities, but incremental increases in various aspects of our roles. The only classes that really transformed significantly were hunters, who finally got a functional secondary role. Every other existing class kept the same roles and were either positively or negatively hit by the global combat changes.
To offer a counterpoint to the list of questions we'd like answered, here are some things I'm looking forward to in Moria for Loremasters:
1) See All Ends - another useful debuff to add to our stable
2) Force of Will - 1 minute Fire-Lore and Ancient Craft? Where do I sign up?
3) Traits that enhance Fire-Lore, Wind-Lore, Sign of Power: Command, Gust of Wind's debuff, and Blinding Flash's resitability - These abilities together amount to about 70% of what I do in the typical fellowship.
4) A Trait set bonus that makes cracked earth root faster. More AE crowd control, yay!
5) The option to go heavy into fire damage for when I'm soloing and don't need Blinding Flash, or in a fellowship with another Loremaster (happens more than you'd think)
6) Two new pets, with chances to start Fellowship Manouvers.
7) Legacies (on our legendary book) that improve resitability of our skills. My number one annoyance when playing Loremaster is the erratic ability to land our important skills.
Can you name another existing class besides hunters that got significantly more than we did out of Moria (and no, getting buffed by the general changes to the combat engine doesn't count)? Really, we need a few relatively minor issues dealt with and LMs will be in good position for the expansion.
the response from Turbine:
Excellent post!
It really sums up a lot of the thinking behind Lore masters in Moria and in where we see the class in terms of its core role and strengths. It also reflects our thinking on why we didn't make dramatic changes to the LM's core role.
Lore masters didn't have a lot of room in the core role to expand without becoming overpowered. So the changes were more adjustments than sweeping new abilities. However, there was a lot more room in the DPS area as LMs were light there. That's why there seem to be so many more DPS buffs than CC buffs in Moria. It was somewhere we could grow the class without unbalancing it or changing its core role.
One thing that I should mention, the changes to cracked earth were something he had to fight for. So he's pretty happy it's appreciated and noticed.
I can answer one question right now fairly easily,
Why won't you engage, or at least occasionally acknowledge, the community? We would like to have a constructive interaction with you, but there seems to be no reciprocal desire.
Our developers aren't required to post. They're encouraged but it's ultimately up to them. They have a lot on their plates and sometimes they just don't have the time. Even though it seems like a simple thing to do. Also, it's a bit like public speaking. Some people just aren't comfortable with it. Which is completely fine. It's not a lack of desire to interact.
If it helps, I was sent a link to this post by the Dev. So he is reading your comments.
While it looks like there are some valid complaints it looks as if this tester does not fully understand a lot of the changes. Reminds me of a kin mate who was complainging about guardian changes because his guardian could not solo as effectively when he was not using a DPS oriented legendary...ummmm duh. Seems as if 20% increase in DPS is fairly easy to achieve in a level or with the legendaries and 40% increases are not out of the question with a lot of them getting over 35% increases by lvl 58.
Your debating fall on deaf ears here; assuming you want something to actually change. And If you do want something to possibly change, post on the official forums. The devs DO read the forums, though they may not post. If enough people complain, there is a good chance something will be done about it.
Not the issue is trying to explain that there are some serious cons to the expansion, which our resident fanboy refuses to admit.
Look, it is pretty obvious that the Loremaster and Minstrel beta testers are the ones who have been seriously worried. It is also obvious from the post Jackdog linked that they weren't addressing these issues in beta like they're supposed to. You can't balance classes in beta? what kind of nonsense is that?
I guess the same that says certain included play preferences aren't valid (raiding, grouping)?
Anyways, the people looking for pros and cons should have enough adequate information now to make a decision.
Not the issue is trying to explain that there are some serious cons to the expansion, which our resident fanboy refuses to admit.
Look, it is pretty obvious that the Loremaster and Minstrel beta testers are the ones who have been seriously worried. It is also obvious from the post Jackdog linked that they weren't addressing these issues in beta like they're supposed to. You can't balance classes in beta? what kind of nonsense is that?
I guess the same that says certain included play preferences aren't valid (raiding, grouping)?
Anyways, the people looking for pros and cons should have enough adequate information now to make a decision.
OMYGAWD MORIA IS DUE TO RELEASE IN TWO AND A HALF WEEKS AND EVERYTHING IS NOT PERFECT.........THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING WOE IS ME WOE IS ME..
there is that better LOL
umm I think I point out in a number of my posts that yes there are concerns, at least with the Minstrel DPS issue. Guess what the purpose of beta is to find issues and it looks as if this is one that was found before release. Notice that the the links I listed show that the devs are aware of the issue and are dealing with it just fine.
Check out my last post also and read it before re-posting. That pretty much shows that the LM issue is pretty much a non issue, at least that is the way I read it.
I can understand your concerns when you are coming from games like Horizons and Saga of Ryzom, but trust me I saw a lot worse issues than this coming into the initial launch and they were all dealt with fairly rapidly either just before or soon aft release when Turbine went through and devoted a polishing run on each class. Call that fanboy if you want but go back and read the patch notes in the first couple of months after launch and you will see I speak the truth.
here are some links to the major ones affecting class balance which occured at and in the first few months after launch. I suggest you read the skills section of each to see what I am referring to
War speech was not added till the Oct 25th patch. Before this we killed pretty darn slow, but I could still take out two orange lefel mobs and even three if I was lucky and light blue elites were doable it just took a while is all. War speech increases the speed of the kills mostly. The Oct 25 patch was also known as month of the Lore Master and we received a lot of well deserved love.
notice that Turbine is not infallible and all knowing and that the classes were not perfect and flawless at release and damge changes and skills were added for months afer the games initial release but somehow we managed to survive as thise changes were evaluated and added. If you want perfect you will probably have to wait for a few months after Moria releases, but I do think it iwll be pretty playable for most of us at release.
hehe, the sky will be falling for other mmo's cause the only mmo to be leunched in the past 5 years to make it past 2 years is Vanguard. LotrO will be the first game in 5's to actually produce an expansion other then WoW. So this is a great milestone of the mmo industry , that you can be successful , without having to hold 10million players hands through 50 levels ! With MoM we will slowly feel the the chaotic portions of the trilogy, and it will be that dynamic that sets us up for the rest of the game. Evewrything up till now has had a controlled feel, even though there is a lot of great content in Angmar, it just doesn't you near that brink of "omg we are all going to die" and with MoM we will slowly feel the darkness creep into our souls and the fear of the Dark Lord be prominent in our journey ! and this calls for a .....
For the comment said about no one doing the level 50 dungeons anymore. Are you forgetting that many players will be level 50 ecspecially in lotro where you have a large base of players not rushing thier levels so they will enjoy the 50's raids at 50 and not rush just to get to the level 60 raids. What exactly do captains get that will make them over balanced?
For the comment said about no one doing the level 50 dungeons anymore. Are you forgetting that many players will be level 50 ecspecially in lotro where you have a large base of players not rushing thier levels so they will enjoy the 50's raids at 50 and not rush just to get to the level 60 raids. What exactly do captains get that will make them over balanced?
Some lvl 50+ characters will want to do the end game instances just to get the Trait rewards in there. Three lvl 55s could do a CD run, for example. Also a lot of the class quests for Legendary Traits require drops from these instances, so people are still going to have to run them. There are lots of ways to keep the pre-50 content viable.
Comments
Its just kind of borked and they know so they refuse to say anything.
here, they said something:
the post by the customer:
Originally Posted by aetryn View Post
Well, to be fair, we have a lot of abilities that really have not much room to go up. The expansion is already increasing our debuffing ability about as much as I can see happening. If you look at other games with percentage based debuffs, they typically don't scale up much - this is because they are exceptionally powerful as it is. Moria mobs have significant extra Morale, so damage-oriented classes have to get upgrades to even stay at the same level. Even if Moria mobs do significantly more damage, Fire-Lore doesn't need an upgrade to already be more effective - just by fighting harder mobs it's more and more useful.
The same is true of Crowd control. The power level of the monsters is largely irrelevant - blinding flash at 10 is blinding flash at 60 vs even level mobs. Sure, they could give us more Crowd control abilities, but we already have a lot of good tools, and if they give us too much, one of two things will happen: 1) Any content that is strongly dependent on crowd control will be ridiculously trivial with a Lore-master in the group, or 2) Any content that is strongly dependent on crowd control will be nearly impossible without a Lore-master in the group.
What else are they going to give us? They don't want to give us better heals (we'd step on Captains and the real healers). We already have so many little helper abilities I can hardly fit them all on my bar, so I'm not sure we need any more support utilities. We aren't a damage class, so that's out. I guess they could give us some buffs to hand out, but that's not really our calling card either.
To a certain extent the problem here (and on many of the class forums) is overly high expectations for the expansion. It's always a challenge for designers to add exciting new abilities to an existing, complete class. Generally, if an ability is a core part of what that class does and fits the role of the class, they had it as part of their original package. What we and most other classes get in this expansion (and will very likely get in the future) are not usually going to be transformative, exciting abilities, but incremental increases in various aspects of our roles. The only classes that really transformed significantly were hunters, who finally got a functional secondary role. Every other existing class kept the same roles and were either positively or negatively hit by the global combat changes.
To offer a counterpoint to the list of questions we'd like answered, here are some things I'm looking forward to in Moria for Loremasters:
1) See All Ends - another useful debuff to add to our stable
2) Force of Will - 1 minute Fire-Lore and Ancient Craft? Where do I sign up?
3) Traits that enhance Fire-Lore, Wind-Lore, Sign of Power: Command, Gust of Wind's debuff, and Blinding Flash's resitability - These abilities together amount to about 70% of what I do in the typical fellowship.
4) A Trait set bonus that makes cracked earth root faster. More AE crowd control, yay!
5) The option to go heavy into fire damage for when I'm soloing and don't need Blinding Flash, or in a fellowship with another Loremaster (happens more than you'd think)
6) Two new pets, with chances to start Fellowship Manouvers.
7) Legacies (on our legendary book) that improve resitability of our skills. My number one annoyance when playing Loremaster is the erratic ability to land our important skills.
Can you name another existing class besides hunters that got significantly more than we did out of Moria (and no, getting buffed by the general changes to the combat engine doesn't count)? Really, we need a few relatively minor issues dealt with and LMs will be in good position for the expansion.
the response from Turbine:
Excellent post!
It really sums up a lot of the thinking behind Lore masters in Moria and in where we see the class in terms of its core role and strengths. It also reflects our thinking on why we didn't make dramatic changes to the LM's core role.
Lore masters didn't have a lot of room in the core role to expand without becoming overpowered. So the changes were more adjustments than sweeping new abilities. However, there was a lot more room in the DPS area as LMs were light there. That's why there seem to be so many more DPS buffs than CC buffs in Moria. It was somewhere we could grow the class without unbalancing it or changing its core role.
One thing that I should mention, the changes to cracked earth were something he had to fight for. So he's pretty happy it's appreciated and noticed.
I can answer one question right now fairly easily,
Why won't you engage, or at least occasionally acknowledge, the community? We would like to have a constructive interaction with you, but there seems to be no reciprocal desire.
Our developers aren't required to post. They're encouraged but it's ultimately up to them. They have a lot on their plates and sometimes they just don't have the time. Even though it seems like a simple thing to do. Also, it's a bit like public speaking. Some people just aren't comfortable with it. Which is completely fine. It's not a lack of desire to interact.
If it helps, I was sent a link to this post by the Dev. So he is reading your comments.
"Sapience"
Online Community Specialist
Last edited by Sapience; Oct 30 2008 at 11:19 AM.
link to the post on the LM forums
forums.lotro.com/showthread.php
Turbine may not be perfect but they are not Funcom or SOE either so have a bit of faith.
I miss DAoC
found this post today and it illustrates why I do not a lose a lot of sleep over some of the complaints
forums.lotro.com/showthread.php read post 183 by the Dev
While it looks like there are some valid complaints it looks as if this tester does not fully understand a lot of the changes. Reminds me of a kin mate who was complainging about guardian changes because his guardian could not solo as effectively when he was not using a DPS oriented legendary...ummmm duh. Seems as if 20% increase in DPS is fairly easy to achieve in a level or with the legendaries and 40% increases are not out of the question with a lot of them getting over 35% increases by lvl 58.
I miss DAoC
Not the issue is trying to explain that there are some serious cons to the expansion, which our resident fanboy refuses to admit.
Look, it is pretty obvious that the Loremaster and Minstrel beta testers are the ones who have been seriously worried. It is also obvious from the post Jackdog linked that they weren't addressing these issues in beta like they're supposed to. You can't balance classes in beta? what kind of nonsense is that?
I guess the same that says certain included play preferences aren't valid (raiding, grouping)?
Anyways, the people looking for pros and cons should have enough adequate information now to make a decision.
Not the issue is trying to explain that there are some serious cons to the expansion, which our resident fanboy refuses to admit.
Look, it is pretty obvious that the Loremaster and Minstrel beta testers are the ones who have been seriously worried. It is also obvious from the post Jackdog linked that they weren't addressing these issues in beta like they're supposed to. You can't balance classes in beta? what kind of nonsense is that?
I guess the same that says certain included play preferences aren't valid (raiding, grouping)?
Anyways, the people looking for pros and cons should have enough adequate information now to make a decision.
OMYGAWD MORIA IS DUE TO RELEASE IN TWO AND A HALF WEEKS AND EVERYTHING IS NOT PERFECT.........THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING WOE IS ME WOE IS ME..
there is that better LOL
umm I think I point out in a number of my posts that yes there are concerns, at least with the Minstrel DPS issue. Guess what the purpose of beta is to find issues and it looks as if this is one that was found before release. Notice that the the links I listed show that the devs are aware of the issue and are dealing with it just fine.
Check out my last post also and read it before re-posting. That pretty much shows that the LM issue is pretty much a non issue, at least that is the way I read it.
I can understand your concerns when you are coming from games like Horizons and Saga of Ryzom, but trust me I saw a lot worse issues than this coming into the initial launch and they were all dealt with fairly rapidly either just before or soon aft release when Turbine went through and devoted a polishing run on each class. Call that fanboy if you want but go back and read the patch notes in the first couple of months after launch and you will see I speak the truth.
here are some links to the major ones affecting class balance which occured at and in the first few months after launch. I suggest you read the skills section of each to see what I am referring to
http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Patch_1.12_(Release_Notes)#Skills
lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Patch_Notes_-_June_12th%2C_2007
War speech was not added till the Oct 25th patch. Before this we killed pretty darn slow, but I could still take out two orange lefel mobs and even three if I was lucky and light blue elites were doable it just took a while is all. War speech increases the speed of the kills mostly. The Oct 25 patch was also known as month of the Lore Master and we received a lot of well deserved love.
lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Patch_Notes_-_October_25th_2007#Skills.2FClasses
lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Patch_Notes_-_February_13th%2C_2008#Classes.2FSkills
these were the major ones which contained significant changes to the classes but here is a link to all the patch notes
lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Patches
notice that Turbine is not infallible and all knowing and that the classes were not perfect and flawless at release and damge changes and skills were added for months afer the games initial release but somehow we managed to survive as thise changes were evaluated and added. If you want perfect you will probably have to wait for a few months after Moria releases, but I do think it iwll be pretty playable for most of us at release.
I miss DAoC
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
Pro: PvMP getting some extra tlc
and of course new content freepside. tired of seeing the fellowship in Rivendell, lol
Con: The runkeeper! It may take a while if ever I accept this character as part of the lore... The lighting sith thing is over the top!!!
Wrong, EQ2 has released numerous expansions.
For the comment said about no one doing the level 50 dungeons anymore. Are you forgetting that many players will be level 50 ecspecially in lotro where you have a large base of players not rushing thier levels so they will enjoy the 50's raids at 50 and not rush just to get to the level 60 raids. What exactly do captains get that will make them over balanced?
Some lvl 50+ characters will want to do the end game instances just to get the Trait rewards in there. Three lvl 55s could do a CD run, for example. Also a lot of the class quests for Legendary Traits require drops from these instances, so people are still going to have to run them. There are lots of ways to keep the pre-50 content viable.