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Really good review kind of scary..
nooblet
Member Posts: 2,274
I took this off the EQ2 boards , some guy took it off the beta boards , here it is. Probaly one of the best reviews ive seen. Sounds like the game has quite a few problems though 
Keep in mind, this is not a bash. Every reply from this post was in agreement with it.
This is a post I've been meaning to write for a while. I've been in beta a long time, since a few weeks before the last character wipe. I am a level 42 Ranger/Level 27 Woodworker who I've played an insane amount of time. I've met many friendly devs and GMs, provided feedback and test a variety of zones, crafting, monsters, quests, and everything else. As a brief disclaimer, I never played EQLive, so you won't see me reference it, or how I think EQ2 should be like it. When I say what I see or feel, that's simply because I want EQ2 to be good, and I think such and such would be good.
The first few weeks of almost any MMRPG are amazing, with new things behind every door, with systems you don't quite understand, and this especially true of a beta, where things are added each week that can change the world completely. This was all true with EQ2.
Now that the NDA is lifted, I see the end of Beta coming, and the start of retail. While I knew this would happen, I, like nearly every other Beta tester am a bit worried about the state of the game. While many people point at the lag in Antonica and other crowded zones as the main issue, I've been lucky to have little to do with it, since when I first came to Antonica I was often the only person in it.
The thing I found most compelling about this game is the world. Even now it prompts me to explore and gain access to every zone I can. I am, at heart, an explorer, not a powergamer (Though, I do powergame, to further my exploration.) There are many amazing zones, both in how they look, and how they function.
However, the biggest turn-off to the game, for me, and many others, is the character development system. As you all know, development is entirely linear. There is none of the joy in developing a well-rounded character, or a specialized one. None of the confusion in deciding what powers to pursue, and what to avoid. Even the frustration that comes with having made a mistake in development is good, because it gives your character exactly that, some character. You are different. You feel attached to your character: he is you, for better or worse.
But EQ2 chose to go with a system where the only choice you make is choose what subclass you want to be. I think most everyone knows going in what they want to be, so this choose is moot. If you want to be a Templar you will be just like *every* other Templar there is. Sure, some have better equipment, and some have different power in spells, but for all practical purposes, they are identical. I've played with many different Templars and Inquisitors, and I can't tell the difference between them, much less tell one Templar from another. Uniqueness has been removed completely.
Even the idea of a 'subclass' is a bit misleading, since the differences between subclasses is so mild, it is for the most part irrelevent. The first 1-20 levels are basically the entire game, in a nutshell. That's when you get your the majority of your core powers, almost 20 entirely different powers, that will define what your class is. The amazing thing is, this doesn't include any subclass powers. Each subclass has about 7-8 powers, of which most are not as useful as the original powers. Getting from 1-20 takes almost no time, relative to the rest of the game, yet that's it as far as character development is concerned. Character Developments ends before the subclass even begins. From 20-45 you mostly gain two or three upgraded versions of your 1-20 powers.
I've noticed that many people burn out in their mid 20s. The answer is always the same: I was bored with my character. Some reroll, and do 1-20 again. Then the get bored again. Maybe this isn't the game for them. Perhaps. But it seems to be that the system is turning off many gamers, casual and powergamers alike.
Despite all the negative reactions on the boards about this sytem, SOE is going full steam ahead with it. Vague messages about changes in future expansions only serve to reinforce the idea that SOE is rushing the game out the door to compete with WoW, and that SOE is confident that masses will rush to buy and play a game with a half-fleshed out character development system.
Yet, I think it's more than that. (Though, that's definately part of it.). I think SOE has gone out of their way to control what characters can and can't do in this game more than any MMRPG in recent memory. I remember when I first started playing MMRPGs, I always thought they were designed to grant the player as much freedom as possible, much like the RPGs they are based on. If you can imagine it, you can do it. Of course, computer games need to be coded and designed, and such ifinite freedom is impossible. However, EQ2 goes much further than need be, all under the guise of balancing what players can accomplish.
On first entering the world, you learn about group and solo mobs. Solo people should never be killing group mobs of their level, and groups will never want to kill the solo mobs. Damage between fighters and scouts is roughly equivelent, so you will never be wanting for DPS. All healers are equally effective, or ineffective, givin that 2 healers in a team is almost required for anything marginally difficult. Dungeons and zones are resticted to certain team sizes of people who have completed access quests. Equipment is limited by level usage, and how effective it is at certain levels. There is little awe and wonder at taking on something extremely difficult and winning, because such encounters are tweaked, to make it impossible to do so. My favorite memories of online gaming is when I, or my team, took on something difficult and won. Also, I cherish powerful items that can make your character that much better. EQ2 will not be a game to make those kind of memories.
Instead, it will be a game where you follow your linear class path, and watch as your level 10 power is given a different name, and granted to you at 24 and 38. You will do the access quests when you can, and you fight things at your level, and will fight the solo mobs when alone and the group mobs when in a group. You will wear armor that rises as you level, so everything remains balanced throughout the game. Each fight will feel exactly like every fight, with you pounding your 4 skills that you've been using since level 20, and you will know the result of the fight before you even begin the battle. Your in-game experience will be almost identical to someone else playing your class. EQ2 is more like a Baldur's Gate than one would expect of a MMRPG.
I know EQ2 is billed as a next generation MMRPG, and graphically, it is. But in terms of overall gameplay, it seems like a radical step backwards.
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EQ2 Qeynos Guild- http://www.imperium-arcanum.com
Comments
Nice review, fairly well thought out and not too crucially brutal, almost "apreciativly sceptical".
Your scathing wit and daring insight into the turbulent political crags of the internet are shining beacons of truth and purity for the slight remaining masses of visionless hypocriticial sheep who bleat at the thought of your glory
Your scathing wit and daring insight into the turbulent political crags of the internet are shining beacons of truth and purity for the slight remaining masses of visionless hypocriticial sheep who bleat at the thought of your glory
Here's a link to the thread in the beta forum:
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=betagameplay&message.id=55636
I believe everyone can get there if they're logged in. If you can get in, take note of the replies... basically every tester posting is in agreement with the negatives of this review.
I didnt notice but Smed replied to it
''Smed
SOE Management
Posts: 3
Registered: 09-21-2004
Viewed 1234 times
We will continue to add more and more diversity to the sub-classes as we've done in the past few months.. we're still not done! A lot of the cooler parts of the game reveal how truly unique the sub-classes actually are. Remember, items are also a big part of the way EverQuest made each character unique.. and yet you will always have the people that say "you have to have X item on your Tank to deal the most damage"... well one of our goals with EQ II was actually to broaden things by quite a bit. We've made design decisions that mean a much more diverse game opens up as your character rises in level. That's exactly what we've intended from the start. The character development system is really designed to make sure we keep things balanced all the way through character progression... and because EQ II has been designed as a long term game, we've also been able to plan that content over a very long arc (there is a reason we went with Good vs. Evil you know!) that includes adding higher level content and very cool new skills and abilities in a way that doesn't unbalance things.
John Smedley
President, Sony Online Entertainment
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EQ2 Qeynos Guild- http://www.imperium-arcanum.com
Man, he might as well have just come out and said they would be adding PvP in an expansion. I knew it!
This is SOE in a nutshell.
They put out an admittedly half finished game and then plan to sell you the rest of your game at 35 to 50 bucks at a time over the next 5 years.
It was obvious that PVP would eventually be a factor. They are not going to leave the entire aspect out of the game because it would drive people who want at least the option to PVP even if they never plan to do it. Admitting that they are not done with the game yet and then going ahead with the release anyway is typical and expected of SOE.
ROLEPLAYERS UNITE!!!!!
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
There are several games.
Anarchy online let you develop your character any way you saw fit. There was a world of difference between two players of the same class in so much that you actually had to ask people what kind of Doc or what kind of tank they were.
SWG allowed you to play at several different classes at the same time and to take only the aspects you wanted of each.
City of heroes from what I have seen allows you to choose which powers you want in such a way as to make your character unique for its class.
This is a valid point being made by the original poster and has been echoed on every EQ forum on the internet. Even Smedley himself thinks it is a problem.
Rhoklaw your fanboism does you no justice at all. We can all see that you are fairly intelligent but you sometimes abandon reason in order to defend this game. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws in a system. It does not make you a traitor to admit there is something about the game that is done poorly.
ROLEPLAYERS UNITE!!!!!
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
> You know, I see post after post, of beta testers who's main concern is this linear development. Excuse me, but every game I've ever played is just as linear. EQ1 was linear even more so since once you picked your profession, your choice was over day one.
I think the concern with character development here is not that it's linear in terms of the timeline. The main concerns I keep seeing in their forums are:
a) the 90% overlap in the sub classes.
b) it is not yet clear what will distinguish melee class X and melee class Y, given the above overlap
c) lack of diversity between any two characters, within a particular base archetype.
Now, we have not seen the final game at level 50 yet. But still - there SHOULD be a difference between the classes all the way up.. EQ2 claims to be more about the casual player - but as-is, level 40+ people seem to all share the same opinions. If, at lvl 40, people can't see a difference, a casual player will never see one. Saying "this will be addressed by expansions" won't fly either - if you have to achieve lvl 50+ to see a difference between you and the next guy, a huge portion of the EQ2 player base will quit before they ever get there - just like EQLive.
On the other hand, EQLive went through a LOT of changes over the years. The original classes have changed dramatically over the 5 years since release. We have since seen the addition of hundreds of spells and a couple of races and classes. But you would really think SoE would have learned something by now... The die-hard players will keep going no matter what they do - but I question how many people will quit and never return if they are the same as everyone else from day one.
-pooka
I've been waiting for EQ2 for a long time now and felt pretty confident that it was going to come out as the best game over all the other mmorpg's out. Reading threads like this really dissapoint me but I can see that people are being too critical. I think the 4 archtype system was a great idea for balancing sake. I'm hoping they will diversify a little more before release but I could care less as long as the game content will hold me for a long time.
The above poster is correct when assuming beta testers are comparing lack of diversity across similar archtypes; ie Fighter (Brawler, Guardian, Warrior). Because of the planned goal of 200 levels and the current XP Gain, when you sign up for this game you can rest assured you will also be beta testing after release. For some thats ok givin the nature of the MMPORPG, BUT once again considering the current XP Gain rate who wants to sit through 50 levels of being a Summoner, then finally after gaining 51 you feel like a necro.
That being said I will be playing the game for as long as I have fun and see sometype of hope!
Right review is not bad but here is what he fails to see.
Granted he is a whole 12 levels higher then my highest character and 7 levels on me in crafting so he seen more then i have seen
First he is right about the game maybe going live too soon espically concerning lag(he missed antontica as he said because we were all at level 10 when powergamers like him hit 20).
Also class balance but not the way he see it.
He from what i see want a skill based character development rather then go the "DAoC" route that EQ2 went.
That system appeals to every player since it gives us such freedom we all love it.But does it work big NO.
The 2 popular mmorpg using this system are UO and SWG.During my 2 years in UO nearly every combat class was a tank/mage.Why?because after a while people will always find the perfect mix and all will follow.
Same happened in SWG first there were master commando/CH all over the place now its master TK.
Once the right combo is found people run to it.
Secondly,even though EQ2 is trying to offer soloing grouping is at the heart of EQ2 and ppl expect that.
My beef with the system is that the class are not balanced out .Some are overpowered some are quite weak.Also he mentioned spell upgrades and yes SoE is adding new spells every week and have started revamping the classes spells.
However overall a good review the game has problems i totally agree with.
SOE never planned to use 200 levels, they just created an engine that CAN do it, this way you do not get the problems like in eq1 where the mobs had to be made 10 times harder to keep up with player levels/gear/spells, causing older world content to be totaly trivial and absolete.
Well, this is one of the best debating posts I've seen in a long time. Points and counter-points throughout the post and very little name calling.
I appreciate the critical thought on both sides of the debate.
I'll have to say, I've not made up my mind between EQ2 and WoW---even though I played WoW's stress test beta and really enjoyed it---so I'll be purchasing both games to make my decision with personal experience.
I agree with TalionNelson, this is a great post with intelligent, thought out responses. Very refreshing!
I was wondering, while I was reading all the posts, why is so much importance being put on your character being unique? Now don't get me wrong, its really nice to have the option of being unique but it sounds to me like this will make or break the game for some people. I personally will play this game if every other necro is just like me. I didnt really mind in EQ or DAoC, and believe it or not, CoH was basically the same way. You were all the same with different graphics. Now Im not ripping on any of these games, I am glad I played those games and I had a lot of fun with all of them.
But it kinda seems like the posters here that agree with the original poster is saying that they might not even play this game if they can't be drastically different then everyone else.
And on top of all that, I don't fully understand what your trying to reach for here, what are you saying SOE can do to make it better? Give some examples. Cuz to me it seems like all wizards are gonna be nukers, all necros are gonna cast dots and undead pets, all fighters are gonna swing swords. I don't fully understand how you can get a huge amount of diversity here, unless they open up 10 more classes to choose from. THEN you will get diversity.
If your saying that you want wizards to be able to choose different lines, like fire, water, earth or whatever. You should consider balance, all wizards will have to be balanced, a fire wizard will not be any stronger then an ice wizard. Otherwise the game would be unfair, the biggest difference will be the graphics when the spell is cast. and maybe a little slowing action for ice and a little more damage for fire. But my point is, its all in your head. The only real difference is the graphics, its all about imagination.
sorry this is so long I didnt intend for this to go on and on...