So goeth Everquest?

Vineyard · October 2004

Since NDA was lifted I have spend hour upon hour scouring every possible forum and message board for whatever I could find. Now, I am sad to say that I wish I had not. I have seen not but dissillusion and subterfuge permeating everything. SOE has said that EQ2 is not EQ, and they are right. I have yet to hear word one of anyone saying how they got that connection or certain feeling they had with EQ, that certain something that kept them raptured with the game for so long. Not one word of it. Yes, this is a new game, but does it not carry the name of Everquest? Is it not on the same planet, on the same continent, possessing the same races and in some part, cities? Yes, it does I am sorry to say. I have always been a supporter of SOE and have bought Sony for all electronics, but now my devotion may faulter. I have nary heard any say but that the game is dumbed down, or enticingly reverant for the unschooled masses as I would say. Programming the clock on my Sony DVD player should not be harder than playing their game. But I digress, please allow me to state a couple of the concerns I have come upon thusly.

1. The whole thing about grouping and soloing. One should not know everything about what you plan to attack, as it takes ALL of the fun out of it. I mean realy, where is the adventure in that. If you know you can take the mob there is no real challange. And the system of the mob being a solo-mob or a group-mob is nothing save [arrow], honestly, it is. You have effectively taken out the excitement factor of the whole combat system. Sadly, now gane are the days of "Hey, do you think we can take it? I dont know, there are a couple more over there that might jooin in so I dont know. Hell, lets give it a shot and see what happens.", This is upsetting as now you will see, "did it con that we could take it and get the RIGHT kind of EXP? NO, it didnt. Alright, lets go methodicaly to the next group to find out 100% if we can slaughter it before we fight it...SIG HEIL!!" yes i made a nazi referance, figure it out for yourselves. And being almost forced to group to get anywhere in the game too smells heavy of the REICH. If I want to do the majority of the game on my lonesone I should NOT be penalized for it, nor should it take me the rest of my natural frelling life to get there. Your perception in this, Smedley and Devs, is poorly misconcieved and you bloody well know it. If my mindset for MY character is the perverbial "Lone Wolf" type I should be able to play that.

2. Character developement...sigh. I have seen not to make me believe even more than the dumbing down of this game in this regard. And the garrulous subterfuge of Smedley(yes I blame him for sidestepping issues and traitorous hand holding) about character developement getting better the higher level you are is ignorant and appauling in the extreme. Why do people want to play this style of game? To be something that they cannot be in real life, to achieve things they cannot on terra firma, to be apart of something bigger. I do not see this here. All I see is a heard of unwashed masses being led by the horns. We do not want to be mirror images of all around us Smedley!! We want to be unique. And the whole, " The higher level you get the more character developement comes to life", line of trite is an insult to all of us. And Smedley, saying that we are unique by the gear you have is nothing more than the sidestepping I am challenging and railing against. This is not enough, nor will or should it be in the least. And the beakon of being possibly able to level cap at 200 seems a bit futile, and since the classes dont even seem to actualy be differant til lvl 50 I dont evenm see that it is worth it. Why would anyone want to wait til lvl 50 before you start seeing anything special about your character? I shall not go into this further because I am disgusted to the core by this. Please, everyone line up so you can be cloned and issued your "UNIQUE" number.

For the record I am not in any way, shape, form, referance, affirmation,acknowledgement, laquatious torts or action saying that I want this game to be like the original game for I do not. I am in some fashion saying that it should, however pay heed to the spirit of the original.I know that there will be those that shall endeavor to challenge my words and attempt to inpune upon my mental capacities. To those of you I say this, " This is what I have seen, this is what I feel, this is what I hope to be wrong about."

Maabus1999 · October 2004

WoW. Been reading these forums for a bit, and wouldn't have suspected this coming.

Thinman · October 2004

Vineyard.. you didn't have to make another book of the Bible to understand this.

Thine vexation would be inexistant, if thou simply considered this precept:

It's SOE........... What did you expect? ::::40::

_______________________________________________________________________

Waiting for WoW, will play until something with new gameplay arrives

"I've been born again"
"I'm coming to get you bastards"
-Derrik, Bad Taste

"The philosophy of a corporate entity umbrellas all activities. Obviously, SOE has a flawed way of doing business."
-Crabby, MMORPG Boards

starman999 · October 2004

I wholeheartedly agree with Vineyard.

I too sense great underlying disturbance in all of this. I fear that loyalty to the legacy of EQ will prompt more people into buying this game in its current condition than it actually warrants.

ROLEPLAYERS UNITE!!!!!

Auggie · October 2004

1. You say combat is dumbed down? I guess you probably played to level 20 or so then. Reason being, there are just as many chances for unwanted adds and bad pulls in EQ2 as there was in EQ1. Guaranteed pulls in EQ2 are a myth and you sir like to spew BS quite a bit. Now, as for being a "Lone Wolf", all I have to say to that is, go play a single player game and you'll be as lone as you can possibly be. I can't help but laugh at people who complain about not being able to solo in an MMO of any sort. In regards to that problem, I title you as thinking "BassAckwards..."

Well I can only go by what I read, and from I see a lot of testers are saying combat is dumbed down. I pulled this off the main EQ boards but it was originally posted on the official EQ2 beta boards. This from a level 42 Ranger

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=218333

Each fight will feel exactly like every fight, with you pounding your 4 skills that you've been using since level 20, and you will know the result of the fight before you even begin the battle. Your in-game experience will be almost identical to someone else playing your class. EQ2 is more like a Baldur's Gate than one would expect of a MMRPG.

So who am I to believe? This 42 Ranger, or you? I'd like to see for my self but since EQ2 isn't going to have an open beta I have to rely on other peoples opinions, unfortunately.

metalfoxus · October 2004

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Well, I'm sorry that 42 Ranger felt EQ2 was dumbed down and boring. I hope he can find another game thats more entertaining. For me, I have plenty of access to beta to render my own opinion of the game. Theres nothing wrong with EQ2 at all, except for maybe the fact theres no PvP, which is probably who most of these hoax reviewers are. They figure, if EQ2 isn't having PvP at launch, I'll just write a bad review and piss SOE off. If you don't want to play EQ2 either, thats your choice, but I'm tired of these idiots posting the same crap over and over which is blatantly untrue. Think about it, if combat is dumbed down, do you really think they'd be pissin and moaning about group exp debt? no. Cause if combats so easy, no ones dying to even notice an exp debt. Frankly, I wish some of these people posting reviews actually had to prove they're in beta. That way we know it's not some WoW fan or PvP fanatic just trying to woo the crowd.

One of many,
Rhojan

Vineyard · October 2004

Well Rhoklaw, I can easily say that I could give half a damn about your opinion. Did you read anywhere in my post that I thought EQ2 was set in stone forever? NO fool you didnt, nor do you seem to be able to fully envelope any real sense of understanding in what you read. My opinions concerning the two subjects is simply my hope that it will change. And to say that I should play a single player game is realy just stupid. I am sure though that in your petty anthropomorphic quasi uriditions it makes perfect sense to say such things, which makes it all the more sad.

Coldmeat · October 2004

Oh, this is going to get good. Screw playing MMOG's, these forums are hundreds of times more entertaining, the content isn't any more buggy than the average MMOG, and it's free.

Vineyard · October 2004

Out of curiosity, what is your take on my original thoughts Coldmeat?

BY the way, I love Hank, talked to him once years ago for a little over an hour. Is the quote from his second book? it sounds like it would be but cannot recall as I havent read them in so long

Coldmeat · October 2004

Pretty much mirrors my feelings in those regards.

Alot of people brought these same issues up in the beta forums, and the Devs responce was basically that the mechanics were in place to address the issues brought up by players leaving EQ, which was their intended audience.

All the complaints I heard from people, be it on the net, or in real life, was mostly casual people complaining about the time investment required, or the fact that they needed an uberguild to ever see the upper end content. I don't recall people complaining about making scew ups with their characters, other than camplining about the drop rates on spells in Kunark and beyond, not knowing what effect stats had, and certain classes being considered 'useless' in groups. There were probably people that complained about kill stealing, and powerleveling, though the Devs say locked encounters are in place to better manage balancing risk vs reward, so people aren't zerging encounters designed for 24 people for example. Which, to me is a cop out on the devs part.

I think what they have with EQ2 is a classic example of what happens when you try to please everyone at once, especially if you only have a tenuous grasp of what it is that they want, or how to achieve it. Lot's of good ideas ruined by bad implimentation. Things that look good on paper don't always transfer to the real world very well, particularly when you throw a few thousand people at it.

Edit: Yeah, I think it might be. Certainly from his earlier, more edgy stuff. I read the's rereleasing Get in the van with a bunch of new stuff in it, so I'm definitely gonna pick that up. Hopefully he'll swing back this way soon. Missed him last time he was in the area.

Vineyard · October 2004

So , in the short of it, its like communist. Great in theory, bad in reality.

Coldmeat · October 2004

Yeah. Giving the people what they want, even if they don't want it.

Coldmeat · October 2004

Originally posted by Rhoklaw
You know what Vineyard, you got me. I didn't read your post and I just slapped my post together with no rebuttal whatsoever. I also don't get what you don't understand about me telling you to play a single player game. If your saying you "like" to solo, thats your problem, not SOEs. If your saying you "have" to solo, again, thats your problem, not SOEs. The game is setup to allow people to solo, if its too slow for you, then I suggest you make some friends. I know sitting at a computer all day may have hindered your social skills, but trust me, no one knows what you look like or how much money you make in an MMO, so dont be scared to say, "Hello, can I hunt with you guys?" because you'll be amazed how much more fun MMOs can be if you actually interact with some of the other players.
One of many,
Rhojan

I see that comment, or one like it alot, when the topic of soloing comes up. I think alot of the complaints about soloing are coming not from an antisocial point of view, but rather the pov of someone that only has a few hours where they can play during the week, for example. So either it takes so long to get a group, that they have to go by the time they get one, or the get in a group, then have to log right when everything starts to get going which is a pain in the ass for a group, so during the week these people solo. With things as they are now, it means that those people will fall behind their friends in short order, and since the 5 odd level limit is still in effect, they won't be able to play with there friends.

I think WoW, and CoH both did a good job of coming up with creative solutions to this problem, rather than saying tough, go play Xbox. Just assuming that someone that has issues with the way soloing is is an antisocial freak does no one any good, and it certainly does nothing to improve the game.

ElElyon · October 2004

I dont understand how people can post stuff like this who havent even played yet.......

eeargy · October 2004

Originally posted by ElElyon
I dont understand how people can post stuff like this who havent even played yet.......

insight

In"sight`, n. immediate and clear understanding that takes place without recourse to overt trial-and-error behavior

Coldmeat · October 2004

Well, I know I've played. Can't speak for Vineyard, and Rhoklaw.

But ignorance of a topic has never been a deterant to people offering their opinions, informed or otherwise, throughout human history.

But, for curiosities sake, who are you referring to, Elelyon?

Vineyard · October 2004

Yes Coldmeat, that is pretty much it. I am either working, or on a project site , in classes or meeting with clients or vendors all day and night, sometimes 7 days a week. I never know when I will get the free time to play for very long, and it is never the same times each day. One day I may get to play a couple hours in the morning only because I have alot to do all day and then have to meet with a vendor in the evening for drinks. Whereas the next day I may only play an hour late in the evening. What Mrs. Congeniality, Rhoklaw, fails horribly to understand is that not everyone has a 9 to 5 job and can be on with the same group of people all the time. Some of us have very busy lives and still want to get alot out of a game.

Hikarusai · October 2004

Originally posted by Vineyard
Yes Coldmeat, that is pretty much it. I am either working, or on a project site , in classes or meeting with clients or vendors all day and night, sometimes 7 days a week. I never know when I will get the free time to play for very long, and it is never the same times each day. One day I may get to play a couple hours in the morning only because I have alot to do all day and then have to meet with a vendor in the evening for drinks. Whereas the next day I may only play an hour late in the evening. What Mrs. Congeniality, Rhoklaw, fails horribly to understand is that not everyone has a 9 to 5 job and can be on with the same group of people all the time. Some of us have very busy lives and still want to get alot out of a game.

Ok, so you know what, you make friends one day, and group with them. They outlevel you. So? Make new friends the next day and group with them, and then repeat. I mean, if you were soloing, you aren't going to make friends anyway, so what do you care if you choose to group and then those people outlevel you? If you were soloing you wouldn't have even met those people in the first place.

If you say that isn't the issue and that the issue is the length of time it takes to get a group, then I point out the fact that class diversity isn't extremely expansive, making pickup groups very easy to come by. So what if you can't find a cleric to heal your group, the druid does just as good a job at healing, making it easy to put together a group on the fly.

Zelph · October 2004

There is something disturbing I find about Rhoklaw's posts. He seems to be a very intelligent person, but fails to support his opinions views with anything remotely substantial. In every thread he replies to this seems to be the same response -

Someone (usually a beta tester with hands-on experiance): Brings up some valid issues that they have with EQ2, not necessarily to bad mouth the game or SOE but to try and bring attention to the problem so that it can (hopefully) be fixed before release.

Rhoklaw: Rants on about how WoW fanboi's are trying to ruin the publicity of this game by badmouthing either it or SOE, even though the game is in beta still and will (hopefully) be fixed by release. Usually he starts flaming them for their observations as if they are not in a position to give an honest to goodness review of the game and it's current flaws.

Someone else (usually another person who has beta tested) will agree with the original poster and add insights/opinions of their own.

Rhoklaw flames them for being ignorant of the facts, yet fails to give any supporting arguements for his own stance other than that EQ2 is good and will be great at release.

I have yet to hear Rhoklaw state anything remotely convincing as to why EQ2 will be good or why certain things in beta are not broken or flawed or what needs to be changed. He did mention that he has access to beta material, but haven't heard anything about him actually being in beta himself. So why are you any more of an expert on EQ2 than people who have been in beta and have first hand experiance about these issues?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame you or EQ2, I just want to hear an intelligent rebuttal on what makes EQ2 good, and not some short reply saying everyone who finds something wrong with EQ2 is obviously a WoW fanboi and biased, or that EQ2 is still in beta and all the flaws will be fixed within the month.

Thinman · October 2004

Originally posted by Rhoklaw
Originally posted by eeargy Originally posted by ElElyonI dont understand how people can post stuff like this who havent even played yet....... insight
In"sight`, n. immediate and clear understanding that takes place without recourse to overt trial-and-error behaviorOmnipotent
1 often capitalized : ALMIGHTY 1
2 having virtually unlimited authority or influence
3 see eeargyOne of many,
Rhojan

Let me be the first to say........ huh?

Also, some people are more INtroverted than EXtroverted, simply by the nature of their ingrained and unchangeable personality (See MBTI, personality types). These people still enjoy playing MMOGs... because it's not like they don't enjoy associating with other people.

They just don't associate with people to the degree that extroverted people do. Introverts are misunderstood by the majority of the population, because something like 70% of the world is extroverted.

I'm introverted, and I do enjoy grouping, but only probably 1/3rd of the time that I spend in MMOGs I spend grouping. The rest I spend enjoying the game soloing.

I'm perfectly normal in RL.... but I tend to do things on my own rather than with people, though I do have my share of friends. It's a perfectly normally socially adjusted thing. At this point in time, it's just not understood.

If someone talks to me in game or wants my help with something, I'm more than happy to talk to or help them. But I value my personal time as well.

If you think there's something wrong with that, it is only because you are uneducated.

_______________________________________________________________________

Waiting for WoW, will play until something with new gameplay arrives

"I've been born again"
"I'm coming to get you bastards"
-Derrik, Bad Taste

"The philosophy of a corporate entity umbrellas all activities. Obviously, SOE has a flawed way of doing business."
-Crabby, MMORPG Boards

Namja · October 2004

Someone please shut Vineyards boasting azz up. Speak English for F***s sake. No one cares about your POS vocabulary. Aite its just a forum not a daym essay paper. Anyways about this solo vs grouping. All I have to say is look at the F***ing genre. MASSIVE F***ING MULTIPLAYER ONLINE. You wanna solo? Go play some single player rpg. I understand people don't always have an hour or more to group and play at a time. Juggling my job, college, and EQ2 will be fun. In that case go play a different game. Don't complain. Just pick a different game. Go play WoW with their 2 races and 3 classes and you're complaining about EQ2 customization. Why would a company change its game to revolve around a select few and destroy the game for those who like it the way it is. Now it's different of course if a huge portion of the community agrees there needs to be a fixing. If your saying solo exp should be just like group exp then you're dumber than I thought. I think it's almost perfect. Solo exp is about 2/3 as good as grouping. Secondly unique?! STFU! EQ2 is the next generation game it isn't the year 2400 aite. It's just 2004. Now tell me what game out there has more class/race combo out today. Yes you will be the same race / class as many others but they won't have the same gear or the same facial/body customization. One thing I love about EQ is that they had sooooooo many items. And finally, the fighting "dumbed" down... If it added anything to auto attack its better than ANY mmo out today. At least you get to throw in a few key combos every now and then. Once again reality check its still 2004. What do you want to swing your mouse around like a sword and have it do the same ingame?! I mean seriously how much more action can you possibly do with your keyboard. NOTHING! Push buttons! Tell me what can they do to make it more "smarted up?" Oh and the complaint about NPC con. WTF?! Why the hell would you want to fight a NPC without knowing the outcome. Ooo exciting!!! It's a 50/50!!! I might die! Yes soooo exciting! Defeats the whole purpose of fighting an NPC to gain exp. You die and you lose exp just to gain it back from 50/50. I wouldn't fight a mob unless I knew I was gonna win 95%. And then you would see Vineyard crying to the devs... Ooo its too hard. They kick my arse and raped me. If you want a 50/50 go fight a harder con mob to gain good exp. To sum it all up. It's EQ2 not EQ3+. You can't expect a quantum leap from the previous auto attack from EQ1 to action packed mouse swinging action in EQ2. Now if there is a more action packed game than EQ2 then GO PLAY IT! Otherwise if you play EQ2 you're agreeing with me that it is the BEST mmorpg out TODAY. Go play WoW and then come back to EQ2 to realize how your complaints of EQ2 are so minimal to WoW.

Coldmeat · October 2004

Originally posted by Namja
Someone please shut Vineyards boasting azz up. Speak English for F***s sake. No one cares about your POS vocabulary. Aite its just a forum not a daym essay paper. Anyways about this solo vs grouping. All I have to say is look at the F***ing genre. MASSIVE F***ING MULTIPLAYER ONLINE. You wanna solo? Go play some single player rpg. I understand people don't always have an hour or more to group and play at a time. Juggling my job, college, and EQ2 will be fun. In that case go play a different game. Don't complain. Just pick a different game. Go play WoW with their 2 races and 3 classes and you're complaining about EQ2 customization. Why would a company change its game to revolve around a select few and destroy the game for those who like it the way it is. Now it's different of course if a huge portion of the community agrees there needs to be a fixing. If your saying solo exp should be just like group exp then you're dumber than I thought. I think it's almost perfect. Solo exp is about 2/3 as good as grouping. Secondly unique?! STFU! EQ2 is the next generation game it isn't the year 2400 aite. It's just 2004. Now tell me what game out there has more class/race combo out today. Yes you will be the same race / class as many others but they won't have the same gear or the same facial/body customization. One thing I love about EQ is that they had sooooooo many items. And finally, the fighting "dumbed" down... If it added anything to auto attack its better than ANY mmo out today. At least you get to throw in a few key combos every now and then. Once again reality check its still 2004. What do you want to swing your mouse around like a sword and have it do the same ingame?! I mean seriously how much more action can you possibly do with your keyboard. NOTHING! Push buttons! Tell me what can they do to make it more "smarted up?" Oh and the complaint about NPC con. WTF?! Why the hell would you want to fight a NPC without knowing the outcome. Ooo exciting!!! It's a 50/50!!! I might die! Yes soooo exciting! Defeats the whole purpose of fighting an NPC to gain exp. You die and you lose exp just to gain it back from 50/50. I wouldn't fight a mob unless I knew I was gonna win 95%. And then you would see Vineyard crying to the devs... Ooo its too hard. They kick my arse and raped me. If you want a 50/50 go fight a harder con mob to gain good exp. To sum it all up. It's EQ2 not EQ3+. You can't expect a quantum leap from the previous auto attack from EQ1 to action packed mouse swinging action in EQ2. Now if there is a more action packed game than EQ2 then GO PLAY IT! Otherwise if you play EQ2 you're agreeing with me that it is the BEST mmorpg out TODAY. Go play WoW and then come back to EQ2 to realize how your complaints of EQ2 are so minimal to WoW.

Now this, people, is what we should all be aiming for in our posts. Kudos to you Namja. Fight the good fight, and never let things like readability, or intelligent discourse stand in your way.

Talent · October 2004

when was the last time you played a game because it was fun, and you didn't have to be elite or anything? ::::01::

just an open ended question.

I think your way to serious, it's a game. Nothing in this world is perfect and I doubt this will ever be. But hey it will pass the time nicely, and hopefully I'll gain some sort of pleasure from playing this.

Vineyard · October 2004

You want me to speak english Namja? I hate to tell you this son but I am speaking proper english. I guess that ghetto education you got didnt teach it.And by saying that you want to know 95% that you can kill something just proves that you are fully a part of the culled masses. And what prey tell is an AZZ? Is this some form of a fraudulant vernaculer? Would your need to referance this way be in the arena of Freudian or rather Jungian field? Perhaps it is an attempt at Nichomechian ethics or by chance could it be a sad flailing toward a Macheavellian Daulist cathardic revolution? "Why oh why should I endeavor to suffer these lesser mortals of weaker intellect?". Sorry Namja, that is Shakespear. Let me go find a Jeff Foxworthy quote that you might, big might, be able to understand.

Roin · October 2004

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Originally posted by Zelph

There is something disturbing I find about Rhoklaw's posts. He seems to be a very intelligent person, but fails to support his opinions views with anything remotely substantial. In every thread he replies to this seems to be the same response -
Someone (usually a beta tester with hands-on experiance): Brings up some valid issues that they have with EQ2, not necessarily to bad mouth the game or SOE but to try and bring attention to the problem so that it can (hopefully) be fixed before release.
Rhoklaw: Rants on about how WoW fanboi's are trying to ruin the publicity of this game by badmouthing either it or SOE, even though the game is in beta still and will (hopefully) be fixed by release. Usually he starts flaming them for their observations as if they are not in a position to give an honest to goodness review of the game and it's current flaws.
Someone else (usually another person who has beta tested) will agree with the original poster and add insights/opinions of their own.
Rhoklaw flames them for being ignorant of the facts, yet fails to give any supporting arguements for his own stance other than that EQ2 is good and will be great at release.
I have yet to hear Rhoklaw state anything remotely convincing as to why EQ2 will be good or why certain things in beta are not broken or flawed or what needs to be changed. He did mention that he has access to beta material, but haven't heard anything about him actually being in beta himself. So why are you any more of an expert on EQ2 than people who have been in beta and have first hand experiance about these issues?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame you or EQ2, I just want to hear an intelligent rebuttal on what makes EQ2 good, and not some short reply saying everyone who finds something wrong with EQ2 is obviously a WoW fanboi and biased, or that EQ2 is still in beta and all the flaws will be fixed within the month.

Well my friend, I don't play in beta, but most of my guild is, but thats besides the point now, since NDA is lifted. My reason for hounding these reviews is because most of their disappointments are minimal to a degree. Then they come off saying... ooohh, they have to fix it or its gonna be a game breaker. All I can do is tell them to stfu and go play WoW or discuss something besides the 5 problems that have been discussed to death already. I'm still waiting for a negative review that actually has a solid concrete point to it. So far, everything people have said negatively about EQ2, I've had an excellent rebuttal for, but they keep posting the same crap over and over and yes, I get a little frustrated about it. With the way things have been the last few months, it wouldn't suprise me if most of the negative reviews are bogus reviews posted by WoW fanbois.

One of many,
Rhojan

And that is why just about everything you say. Will be taken in worth as a grain of salt. Everything you've posted, and that I have read. Seems almost like you are saying "I am right! They are wrong. So obviously they must be WoW Fanboi's".

It's cool that you like EQ2 and all. I'm happy for you. It's just that you really need to change your post. So they it doesn't seem like you are telling someone their opinions about EQ2 are wrong.

I happen to agree with the guy you quoted. You always seem to be flaming everyone that has a negative view of EQ2. Without giving any sort of rebuttal post other then "They are WoW Fanboi's". I've pretty much taken to skipping post by you as of 10 mins ago. Because that is all i've seen you do.

seakelp911 · October 2004

Originally posted by Talent
when was the last time you played a game because it was fun, and you didn't have to be elite or anything? just an open ended question.I think your way to serious, it's a game. Nothing in this world is perfect and I doubt this will ever be. But hey it will pass the time nicely, and hopefully I'll gain some sort of pleasure from playing this.

THANK YOU! THANK YOUUUUUUUU!

I'm generally prety quiet on here, but this is exactly my thoughts. I was a bit deflated when I started reading so much bad after the NDA lifted, but then I realize... There was a reason I was looking forward to this game. And there still is. I was never one to try to be uber, and I enjoy solo and grouping equally. I'm not in beta, so I can't really say much else. But I'm not letting these people over-hype me, or make me not even give the game a chance at all. I pre-ordered (both, actually), and if I don't like it, I don't have to pay the monthly fees. $50 lost. boo hoo...

But hey, it can't be much worse than Horizons, right? ::::15::

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