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Why killing turned into a grind
Inzra
Member Posts: 679
One of the things that I think makes leveling a grind is the killing of mobs.
Or rather how it's setup - it's repetitive and predictable.
You go up to the mob, you hit it, it lose 10%
Mob hit you, you lose 10-20 %.
You hit mob, it lose another 10- 20 %.
Mob hit you .... and so on till one of you are dead.
Then find new mob and repeat the whole thing.... and you know it's going to happen
...How boring can it get !?
Here's my tip to the people that makes mmo's - make the fighting REALISTIC.
If someone attacks from the back with a dagger, straight in the neck of the opponent, how much chance would there be that the victim turns around and attack you back some 20-30 times...?
Nope, most likely he/she will be so weak that they can't do anything neither attack nor defend themselves, or they're already heading towards the afterlife.
However, if they are wary, they might dodge your attack, pull our their sword and put it in your gut. Now, what is the chance that you'll be able to retaliate much with a broadsword sticking out your back?
See the difference in that, from the grinding mentioned above?
You could do alot of fast killings in short time if you were skilled, but you would also risk dying with a single blow.
This kind of fighting would also be more fun if you get to control as much of the fighting yourself, which is one of the reasons why I prefer playing AoC with the more hands-on combat. That system could be better ofc but I think it's a step in the right direction.
And this isn't meant as commercial for AoC, because that game also still has the grind killing, like many games.
Yea, I know some of you hate one-shotters. But really, it's the realistic thing, and the realism makes it more exciting. If someone points a gun at you, I guess you could kick it out of his hand, or throw yourself at him. But if the bullet already left towards your forehead, you're most likely gonna see the white light. And not attack 20 more times back...
Just my thoughts, if it's boring, you might have to sacrifice something, like your safety perhaps...
Comments
Im fine with grinding as long as they make the encounters with the mobs interesting, unique, and challenging.
CoH, FFXI, EQ2, all did this well imo.
edit: But I agree, make combat more dangerous and challenging, lately with mmo's it just keeps getting easier and easier..
First person shooters are thataways ====>
Why is it that rogues and mages and rangers are so popular? They one-hit and one-shot.
That's dynamic battle. Instead of feeling like your digging a whole in the ground....or watching paint dry...
Why is it that rogues and mages and rangers are so popular? They one-hit and one-shot.
That's dynamic battle. Instead of feeling like your digging a whole in the ground....or watching paint dry...
No exactly.
they are popular because they can one shot. Or killi in a few shots. It becomes a bit of an I-win button. this is not to say that a fight can't be more dynamic, but having a regular "I get x percent xp from this mob" fight where you can one shot it pretty much speeds up leveling. You'll get a different type of grind. the walk up to the back of the mob and stick it in the neck grind.
So first of all they would actually have to make a sliding xp range per encounter. If it's easy (your one shot) then less xp, if you have to take time to kill it then slightly more.
My thought is if you want to make fighting more dynamic then more xp can be attributed to the fight. So less mobs but more time to fight each mob.
but not if you can just walk up to the back and stick it in the kidney. Quite frankly, I think that would be very boring very quickly.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The reason one-shot and one-hit kills seems easy today, is that we get WAY to much info on an unknown opponent.
So that's another thing, remove the visible levels, at least for unknown types of npc enemies, and players you haven't fought against before.
If you don't know the outcome, and have a hard time guessing it, you would actually behave more realistically towards the situation.
It could be an easy win, or a quick death.
No exactly.
they are popular because they can one shot. Or killi in a few shots. It becomes a bit of an I-win button. this is not to say that a fight can't be more dynamic, but having a regular "I get x percent xp from this mob" fight where you can one shot it pretty much speeds up leveling. You'll get a different type of grind. the walk up to the back of the mob and stick it in the neck grind.
So first of all they would actually have to make a sliding xp range per encounter. If it's easy (your one shot) then less xp, if you have to take time to kill it then slightly more.
My thought is if you want to make fighting more dynamic then more xp can be attributed to the fight. So less mobs but more time to fight each mob.
but not if you can just walk up to the back and stick it in the kidney. Quite frankly, I think that would be very boring very quickly.
I guess I should have mentioned that the realistic part also involves not seeing the skills of your opponent, although you might see his armor (without inspecting).
That why visible levels shouldn't be there either, cause then you wouldn't know how easy it would really be. You couldn't calculate it, it would have to be a guess.
Why is it that rogues and mages and rangers are so popular? They one-hit and one-shot.
That's dynamic battle. Instead of feeling like your digging a hole in the ground....or watching paint dry...
No that is NOT the reason they're popular. They're popular because that's what people are least like.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
No that is NOT the reason they're popular. They're popular because that's what people are least like.
Not sure I understood that one...
I think the reason why people choose the dmg'ers is because they want to own their opponents hard. And I don't really see anything wrong in that, that's fun too.
No exactly.
they are popular because they can one shot. Or killi in a few shots. It becomes a bit of an I-win button. this is not to say that a fight can't be more dynamic, but having a regular "I get x percent xp from this mob" fight where you can one shot it pretty much speeds up leveling. You'll get a different type of grind. the walk up to the back of the mob and stick it in the neck grind.
So first of all they would actually have to make a sliding xp range per encounter. If it's easy (your one shot) then less xp, if you have to take time to kill it then slightly more.
My thought is if you want to make fighting more dynamic then more xp can be attributed to the fight. So less mobs but more time to fight each mob.
but not if you can just walk up to the back and stick it in the kidney. Quite frankly, I think that would be very boring very quickly.
I guess I should have mentioned that the realistic part also involves not seeing the skills of your opponent, although you might see his armor (without inspecting).
That why visible levels shouldn't be there either, cause then you wouldn't know how easy it would really be. You couldn't calculate it, it would have to be a guess.
hmmm that's a tough one. At one end, if there is no way to guage an opponents worth, you might have people bored to death killing easy things or extremely frustrated because they get wiped in .01 seconds.
I think with pvp you shouldn't be able to see their gear stats or even their health. Or their exact health, but maybe an indication if they are "tiring" or something.
So, one shotting things will just be too boring and being wiped all the time will be extremely frustrating. Oh sure, you can use the argument that it's more realistic, but one thing I've learned from online and solo games is that realistic doesn't always equate to fun. I was thinking about this today when I looked at my inventory in Oblvion and realized that there was no way I could carry all that stuff in real life.
Which of course could be a way to go. Only carry what you can reasonably carry. However, the game systems would just have to be altered a bit to allow for a minimal inventory.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
hmmm that's a tough one. At one end, if there is no way to guage an opponents worth, you might have people bored to death killing easy things or extremely frustrated because they get wiped in .01 seconds.
I think with pvp you shouldn't be able to see their gear stats or even their health. Or their exact health, but maybe an indication if they are "tiring" or something.
So, one shotting things will just be too boring and being wiped all the time will be extremely frustrating. Oh sure, you can use the argument that it's more realistic, but one thing I've learned from online and solo games is that realistic doesn't always equate to fun. I was thinking about this today when I looked at my inventory in Oblvion and realized that there was no way I could carry all that stuff in real life.
Which of course could be a way to go. Only carry what you can reasonably carry. However, the game systems would just have to be altered a bit to allow for a minimal inventory.
What the player could after a fight, is to tag the type of mob and get the option of marking as everything from dead-easy to impossible. And same thing for PvP.
This way you could give yourself a hint to avoid the most boring/hardest battles. But it would have to be based on your own judgement, not computer calculated.
There's allways gonna be those griefers that go far to get a one-shot, but there are also allways ways to avoid them if you play smart.
I agree with you on the health label, you don'thave to know anything about the person to see if he's in bad shape or not.
If one-shotting really gets boring, would probably be because you're fighting too easy opponents that is most likely not to drop much good loot in the first place. So yea then it becomes boring. But when you go up against someone you don't know heck about, there's more excitment to it, since it's more of a challenge.
As for being wiped all the time, you can allways go to another place, or ask for assistance from your friends/guild. Noone can expect that all the task you set out to do will be easy, and grifers would be part of that risk sometimes. If that risk isn't there, it again turns a bit more boring
Anything repetitive, but without risk or reward, becomes lame.
And rewards need risks to be valued.
Grinding for a nice item in a dangerous area where the penalties for losing are as rich as the rewards for succeeding is invigorating and fun.
But grinding in a lame, Candy-land atmosphere where the rewards are freebies and the risks are nil is monotonous.
"grinding in a lame, Candy-land atmosphere"... Haha that reminds me of Maplestory.
But yea I agree... anything repetitive becomes a grind, and repetitiveness is present in one way or the other in all games I suppose (or maybe most)? The devs just have to be clever and make the players enjoy their gaming experience while going through the repetitiveness
See the underlined part? that's the problem, them damn noobs can't take some hardcore gaming, even if the deaths ain't much of a penalty.
Many gamers simply play the game to say I went through it or worthless crap like that, they don't care about how boring it is, as long as it's easy ( they can't do it with their utter lack of skill ).
I say the easier, the more it's worth CRAP, I hate crap seriously, I want to actually play and fight for my reward. The point is not to GET the reward but to go through the challenge, a hard one, and succeed, that's what make doing the quest worth it, not the reward ( exp, items, title, etc. ).
Patience is easy to get, and you don't need much patience to grind, just some will to support it.
Discipline is hard to get, and it's not because you get some discipline with a video game that you can in real life, but hell, if you get discipline yourself in a video game, I don't imagine your life.
Silas, Darkstalker, Shadow of the Sun
I've always said that PvE is the weak point of MMOs. Mob hunting/grinding wouldn't be an issue if PvE combat was more engaging and less repetitive. Better AI would be a start. Actually, that would be a HUGE improvement. Just look at DAOC: PvE was as boring as it gets, yet, PvP was a total blast. Same combat system in both situations, only difference is human opponents rather than predictable, repetitive mob AI.
I agree, at least one game should have more realistic combat. I am willing to bet that the devs of most games never even held a real balanced sword in their hands (Yes, I have done some fighting myself and know a thing things about dark ages combat).
I play AoC too and while it is a small way to the right direction I would like a game where you actually could aim for certain parts.
Off course I also would love a historicly correct MMO, maybe about europe in the 1200s or so.
hmmm i definately agree with this. I agree with those who say that Grinding is Terrible.
But what if a MMO was created where you level based on PVP? Maybe you take the entire PVE factor out of it, and if you want to level, or get stronger, or receive more rewards, you have to earn them by fighting against other players. I think that would make a very powerful game, one based alot upon skill
hmmm i definately agree with this. I agree with those who say that Grinding is Terrible.
But what if a MMO was created where you level based on PVP? Maybe you take the entire PVE factor out of it, and if you want to level, or get stronger, or receive more rewards, you have to earn them by fighting against other players. I think that would make a very powerful game, one based alot upon skill
I think everyone will agree that grinding is boring.
You got an interesting idea, but then the leveling would require people to fight with to level. For the soloers that might be a nightmare
I'm more in favor of a game with no overall levels, where you only train skills. I think EVE got that. But not training over real time, just training using the skill.
Like, to be better at using a sword you have to use it. Then when you get to max, it's up to your player skills and brains
I agree. I want interesting fights, not one shot battles that are over in 2 seconds.
Make Mobs that run away and kite, BAF, explode doing damage, have a hydra effect turning inot two more if you kill it, Mobs that heal each other and use a holy trinity set up, mobs that can only be killed during the day, mobs that never quit following you, and so on.
If the mob is too strong people whine about it killing them all the time.
If the mob is too hard to figure out how to kill people whine they don't have enough time to log in and play.
If the mob takes more than 1 person to kill people whine about having to group with each other.
If the mob runs away when almost dead people whine about having to chase them down.
If the mob heals itself too much people whine it takes too long to kill the thing.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!