I really don't even think Warhammer was unfinished or unready. The major problems with warhammer are all it's basic design decisions. Scenarios too rewarding, defending BO's and keeps worthless. So not only do you have the vast majority of players grinding scenarios, but even those that do oRvR just swap keeps rather then actually fight over them.
But the thing that really drove me away from Warhammer was just the clunky and unresponsive combat. You couldn't time things, you couldn't be precise.. you just ran in smashing buttons and stuff fired +/- 1 second of when you thought it wsa going to. In the 'other game', I could use an insta-cast to interrupt the other guys 1sec cast spell. In warhammer, I never felt like I could react to what was happening.. i just did my thing and hoped it worked out well.
I really don't even think Warhammer was unfinished or unready. The major problems with warhammer are all it's basic design decisions. Scenarios too rewarding, defending BO's and keeps worthless. So not only do you have the vast majority of players grinding scenarios, but even those that do oRvR just swap keeps rather then actually fight over them. But the thing that really drove me away from Warhammer was just the clunky and unresponsive combat. You couldn't time things, you couldn't be precise.. you just ran in smashing buttons and stuff fired +/- 1 second of when you thought it wsa going to. In the 'other game', I could use an insta-cast to interrupt the other guys 1sec cast spell. In warhammer, I never felt like I could react to what was happening.. i just did my thing and hoped it worked out well.
While I totally respect and share your issues with the game, one could say those missing "features" or far from perfect gameplay is what makes the game "unready".
They already improved the combat responsive and the new patch promises a major update on this subject.
I am pretty sure the entire ORVR campaign will get enhanced too but that will take some time. Nobody can honestly think the current situtation is Mythic's vision for the game after DAOC.
Right now I see no reasons to login but I'm confident it will be a solid game after some more patchwork is done because WAR actually offers alot to enjoy and cool features like the classes, the artwork, the tome of knowledge, the trophies, leveling up in a PVP environment, the cities .. it just needs time and money, Mythic go both.
If you are not accustomed to eating kiwi, go slow at first.
I really don't even think Warhammer was unfinished or unready. The major problems with warhammer are all it's basic design decisions. Scenarios too rewarding, defending BO's and keeps worthless. So not only do you have the vast majority of players grinding scenarios, but even those that do oRvR just swap keeps rather then actually fight over them. But the thing that really drove me away from Warhammer was just the clunky and unresponsive combat. You couldn't time things, you couldn't be precise.. you just ran in smashing buttons and stuff fired +/- 1 second of when you thought it wsa going to. In the 'other game', I could use an insta-cast to interrupt the other guys 1sec cast spell. In warhammer, I never felt like I could react to what was happening.. i just did my thing and hoped it worked out well.
Exact same feelings, I like WAR but the reasons mentioned in the quote just drove me away.
I really don't even think Warhammer was unfinished or unready. The major problems with warhammer are all it's basic design decisions. Scenarios too rewarding, defending BO's and keeps worthless. So not only do you have the vast majority of players grinding scenarios, but even those that do oRvR just swap keeps rather then actually fight over them. But the thing that really drove me away from Warhammer was just the clunky and unresponsive combat. You couldn't time things, you couldn't be precise.. you just ran in smashing buttons and stuff fired +/- 1 second of when you thought it wsa going to. In the 'other game', I could use an insta-cast to interrupt the other guys 1sec cast spell. In warhammer, I never felt like I could react to what was happening.. i just did my thing and hoped it worked out well.
Exact same feelings, I like WAR but the reasons mentioned in the quote just drove me away.
Ill 3rd that post. But add in that the population and server restrictions are another thorn in the side.
WAR doesn't deserve more time. If the game wasn't ready, they shouldn't have launched.
I got sick of waiting for the game to launch. As it is right now, I am enjoying the game and plan on staying for a long time. MMOs do need time to develop -- with the right team, patches, content and expansions, the game will evolve and grow. there comes a point in time, that many of you ignorant people do not realize where a company needs to pay the bills -- it cant stay in development as long as it maybe should for the simple fact, that money dictates all. Another year of beta does not pay the bills. Now with the cash from subs rolling in, the dev team can work with a game that is making money and add to the game accordingly.
Hate to break it to you, the servers are maintaining 20+ med/med and Mythic has a chance to win people back and get new players with the Dec patch.
Its true that MMOs need time, or should develop in time, after all thats why we pay subscriptions. However after my experience with the AoC launch I have realized that the biggest thread to a MMO at launch is the marketing department, simply put, they tend to lie about features, that really don't work, or are not implemented when the product is put on the shelf.
Traditional game companies like EA must learn that for an MMO to succeed, its not enough to get people to take it from the shelf, you also need to make them wanna stay month after month after month. False promises, are the best way of getting disappointed customers, who will seek elsewere for their needs.
So simply put, its ok to some extend to realease a MMO that still needs development, but game companies should be really really carefull about what they promise.
So its not a question if WAR will fail, WAR has already failed, because their marketing department outperformes their development department by a mile.
I don't agree. WAR does not need time to develop. WAR is fundamentally flawed and i see no reason to believe Mythic understands that or knows what to do or ever had a capability to expose those flaws.
You could give it all the time in the world, there is no reason to expect that it work right. Blind faith is not answer.
WAR doesn't deserve more time. If the game wasn't ready, they shouldn't have launched.
I got sick of waiting for the game to launch. As it is right now, I am enjoying the game and plan on staying for a long time. MMOs do need time to develop -- with the right team, patches, content and expansions, the game will evolve and grow. there comes a point in time, that many of you ignorant people do not realize where a company needs to pay the bills -- it cant stay in development as long as it maybe should for the simple fact, that money dictates all. Another year of beta does not pay the bills. Now with the cash from subs rolling in, the dev team can work with a game that is making money and add to the game accordingly.
Hate to break it to you, the servers are maintaining 20+ med/med and Mythic has a chance to win people back and get new players with the Dec patch.
I'm sorry companies do not have enough money to put out a complete product. I'm sorry they cannot keep their deadlines or set unreal expectations. All those things suck, but it does not make people ignorant.
It is not the customers problem that a company did not manage itself properly or set unreal goals. It is not the responsibility of customers to stick around and pay for the post release completion of a game just because a company failed to deliver what they set out to make or ran out of money. If a games only chance at survival is to have enough people put blind faith in its eventual completion and funding through subscriptions then I'm sorry it should fail.
In fact people who continually make excuses, apologize for and place blame on other customers for the failures of a company are the people who empower companies to get away with this sort of crap. Whatever happens to Warhammer it will not be the fault of the customers.
Mythic said over and over they wouldn't release the game until it was awesome. Not good, but GREAT! I even remember them considering charging more than the standard $15 monthly sub fee.
Great that you like the game, but don't lash out at people because Mythic didn't do their job. The condition and state of Warhammer is 100% Mythics fault.
WAR at the time of launch was as complete a product as an MMO can be or has been at launch. You are quite ignorant if you dont realize or cant admit, that an MMO is never truly a "complete" or "finished" product as they are continually evolving, growing and expanding.
WAR doesn't deserve more time. If the game wasn't ready, they shouldn't have launched.
I got sick of waiting for the game to launch. As it is right now, I am enjoying the game and plan on staying for a long time. MMOs do need time to develop -- with the right team, patches, content and expansions, the game will evolve and grow. there comes a point in time, that many of you ignorant people do not realize where a company needs to pay the bills -- it cant stay in development as long as it maybe should for the simple fact, that money dictates all. Another year of beta does not pay the bills. Now with the cash from subs rolling in, the dev team can work with a game that is making money and add to the game accordingly.
Hate to break it to you, the servers are maintaining 20+ med/med and Mythic has a chance to win people back and get new players with the Dec patch.
I'm sorry companies do not have enough money to put out a complete product. I'm sorry they cannot keep their deadlines or set unreal expectations. All those things suck, but it does not make people ignorant.
It is not the customers problem that a company did not manage itself properly or set unreal goals. It is not the responsibility of customers to stick around and pay for the post release completion of a game just because a company failed to deliver what they set out to make or ran out of money. If a games only chance at survival is to have enough people put blind faith in its eventual completion and funding through subscriptions then I'm sorry it should fail.
In fact people who continually make excuses, apologize for and place blame on other customers for the failures of a company are the people who empower companies to get away with this sort of crap. Whatever happens to Warhammer it will not be the fault of the customers.
Mythic said over and over they wouldn't release the game until it was awesome. Not good, but GREAT! I even remember them considering charging more than the standard $15 monthly sub fee.
Great that you like the game, but don't lash out at people because Mythic didn't do their job. The condition and state of Warhammer is 100% Mythics fault.
WAR at the time of launch was as complete a product as an MMO can be or has been at launch. You are quite ignorant if you dont realize or cant admit, that an MMO is never truly a "complete" or "finished" product as they are continually evolving, growing and expanding.
The thing is Mythic did think it was great when they released it. They were just wrong.
Now part of the reason they were wrong is because they were fooling themselves into believing some of their testing methods were valid.
WAR did not really test its design throughly. They tested their implementation but alot of the psychology and some the the T4 stuff did not get tested correctly.
Mythic got cuaght with their pants down out of blindness not neglect. Its completeness was not really the problem. It seems incomplete now because its flaws have been exposed. But when Mythic was releasing it they had not exposed the flaws and it seemed fine.
One of the things that many people on this board fail to understand is that testing is not some fool proof process. You never really know when or if you are "done". There is no such thing as incomplete in this regard.
The thing is Mythic did think it was great when they released it. They were just wrong.
Now part of the reason they were wrong is because they were fooling themselves into believing some of their testing methods were valid.
WAR did not really test its design throughly. They tested their implementation but alot of the psychology and some the the T4 stuff did not get tested correctly.
Mythic got cuaght with their pants down out of blindness not neglect. Its completeness was not really the problem. It seems incomplete now because its flaws have been exposed. But when Mythic was releasing it they had not exposed the flaws and it seemed fine.
One of the things that many people on this board fail to understand is that testing is not some fool proof process. You never really know when or if you are "done". There is no such thing as incomplete in this regard.
This and the above post of Azrill and the unresponsive PvP mechanics. A PvP based game with these bad timings is PvP off way off.
AoC had the problem of using a way too high graphics system for an MMORPG, cutting the game into small instances and having too old AO code running in the background.
WAR has, like this guy stated, even a deeper problem: design failure.
The game was designed to have thousands and thousands of people on one server to activate all of its PQ's, spread out RvR, single server 12(!) Bg's and cut up Tier system. The problem is the old used DAoC engine doesn't support thousands and thousands of players. I doubt ANY engine supports 10.000 players per server in a fantasy setting (EVE space is a complete different story).
That's a BIG design error and everything in War is suffering from it: the unresponsiveness (Azrill talks about), the lack of people doing RvR, the 12 (!) scenarios that don't always open, the PQ's that end at its first cycle, the lag people experience when just too many people are logged on.
Just one example: the 5 BG's in that other game are supported by 18 server clusters.
Of course you can have some glitches in design philosophy. Like too many RvR lakes spreadout too much in different Tiers. But if you have a lot of those glitches together (scenarios, PQ's, old engine, ...) it all adds up.
Therefore: the quoted poster is correct: I just wanted to point out it boils down to the head designer of this game.
It's sad a lot of reviewers didn't see this obvious fact that was already clear after a few days. I think only Eurogamer mentioned it sidewise (talking of pops/server), but the problems are much deeper.
Originally posted by Tyvolus1 WAR at the time of launch was as complete a product as an MMO can be or has been at launch. You are quite ignorant if you dont realize or cant admit, that an MMO is never truly a "complete" or "finished" product as they are continually evolving, growing and expanding.
I never said the game wasn't a good launch. It many ways it was with the total exception of everything that happened in Europe.
The performance was fine even if some people have issues (ATI users aside have a right to complain)
The game didn't crash every 10 minutes. Quests worked and didn't bug out. Combat worked.
For sake of argument I will concede that all the games mechanics worked fine even if they didn't, because that is not important.
There is more to a game being "ready" than just working on your PC.
I still stand by my statement that the game was not ready for release. You can see that in the hastily implemented craft system. The dysfunctional zone control system. The complete lack of a simple damage pass for classes. The disparity between scenarios and everything else in the game. The games soul, the reason to do things and the motivations are all missing.
Sure on paper the design team maybe hit their goals, but once you put all of those drawing board theories into practice is when you see how things work in reality. That is where Warhammer failed to be ready on release. The game actively works against forming a strong community. It promotes solo PvE gameplay over everything else in a game that has its foundation built upon large scale team PvP. There are just so many things that a couple of months in serious testing would have shown, just like it is in the first month of release. Some of these things are so obvious there is no excuse for them to go live in the condition they were.
You can talk about how great the games launch was all you want, but anyone with half an open eye can see the true condition just by looking at how quickly people are leaving.
I don't see how no one called this out. The game was poorly developed because it has 2 factions instead of 3??? What game were you expecting , DAOC??
And the issue here isn't really if the game are bad, I don't think so, but if EA could/would kill it. And there is always that chanse, Mythic should never have sold out to them. I'm am sure that it is EA that forced Mythic to launch the game as early as they did.
So here is one more reason to blame TOA for Mythics failures. If they hadn't released that way too time consuming Xpack on a game where everyone wanted to RVR, then they probably wouldn't have sold out to EA.
I mean, people might laugh at that 250K-300K sub number now compared to WOW but that was a lot back then before Wow and their 6 Million Chinese gold farmers and advertising everywhere you look. DAOC got those numbers through word of mouth and were keeping up with EQ. DAOC was the best game on the market and they blew it with every release after SI.
Now if only they would release the real classic servers.
Comments
I really don't even think Warhammer was unfinished or unready. The major problems with warhammer are all it's basic design decisions. Scenarios too rewarding, defending BO's and keeps worthless. So not only do you have the vast majority of players grinding scenarios, but even those that do oRvR just swap keeps rather then actually fight over them.
But the thing that really drove me away from Warhammer was just the clunky and unresponsive combat. You couldn't time things, you couldn't be precise.. you just ran in smashing buttons and stuff fired +/- 1 second of when you thought it wsa going to. In the 'other game', I could use an insta-cast to interrupt the other guys 1sec cast spell. In warhammer, I never felt like I could react to what was happening.. i just did my thing and hoped it worked out well.
While I totally respect and share your issues with the game, one could say those missing "features" or far from perfect gameplay is what makes the game "unready".
They already improved the combat responsive and the new patch promises a major update on this subject.
I am pretty sure the entire ORVR campaign will get enhanced too but that will take some time. Nobody can honestly think the current situtation is Mythic's vision for the game after DAOC.
Right now I see no reasons to login but I'm confident it will be a solid game after some more patchwork is done because WAR actually offers alot to enjoy and cool features like the classes, the artwork, the tome of knowledge, the trophies, leveling up in a PVP environment, the cities .. it just needs time and money, Mythic go both.
If you are not accustomed to eating kiwi, go slow at first.
Exact same feelings, I like WAR but the reasons mentioned in the quote just drove me away.
Exact same feelings, I like WAR but the reasons mentioned in the quote just drove me away.
Ill 3rd that post. But add in that the population and server restrictions are another thorn in the side.
I got sick of waiting for the game to launch. As it is right now, I am enjoying the game and plan on staying for a long time. MMOs do need time to develop -- with the right team, patches, content and expansions, the game will evolve and grow. there comes a point in time, that many of you ignorant people do not realize where a company needs to pay the bills -- it cant stay in development as long as it maybe should for the simple fact, that money dictates all. Another year of beta does not pay the bills. Now with the cash from subs rolling in, the dev team can work with a game that is making money and add to the game accordingly.
Hate to break it to you, the servers are maintaining 20+ med/med and Mythic has a chance to win people back and get new players with the Dec patch.
Its true that MMOs need time, or should develop in time, after all thats why we pay subscriptions. However after my experience with the AoC launch I have realized that the biggest thread to a MMO at launch is the marketing department, simply put, they tend to lie about features, that really don't work, or are not implemented when the product is put on the shelf.
Traditional game companies like EA must learn that for an MMO to succeed, its not enough to get people to take it from the shelf, you also need to make them wanna stay month after month after month. False promises, are the best way of getting disappointed customers, who will seek elsewere for their needs.
So simply put, its ok to some extend to realease a MMO that still needs development, but game companies should be really really carefull about what they promise.
So its not a question if WAR will fail, WAR has already failed, because their marketing department outperformes their development department by a mile.
I don't agree. WAR does not need time to develop. WAR is fundamentally flawed and i see no reason to believe Mythic understands that or knows what to do or ever had a capability to expose those flaws.
You could give it all the time in the world, there is no reason to expect that it work right. Blind faith is not answer.
I got sick of waiting for the game to launch. As it is right now, I am enjoying the game and plan on staying for a long time. MMOs do need time to develop -- with the right team, patches, content and expansions, the game will evolve and grow. there comes a point in time, that many of you ignorant people do not realize where a company needs to pay the bills -- it cant stay in development as long as it maybe should for the simple fact, that money dictates all. Another year of beta does not pay the bills. Now with the cash from subs rolling in, the dev team can work with a game that is making money and add to the game accordingly.
Hate to break it to you, the servers are maintaining 20+ med/med and Mythic has a chance to win people back and get new players with the Dec patch.
I'm sorry companies do not have enough money to put out a complete product. I'm sorry they cannot keep their deadlines or set unreal expectations. All those things suck, but it does not make people ignorant.
It is not the customers problem that a company did not manage itself properly or set unreal goals. It is not the responsibility of customers to stick around and pay for the post release completion of a game just because a company failed to deliver what they set out to make or ran out of money. If a games only chance at survival is to have enough people put blind faith in its eventual completion and funding through subscriptions then I'm sorry it should fail.
In fact people who continually make excuses, apologize for and place blame on other customers for the failures of a company are the people who empower companies to get away with this sort of crap. Whatever happens to Warhammer it will not be the fault of the customers.
Mythic said over and over they wouldn't release the game until it was awesome. Not good, but GREAT! I even remember them considering charging more than the standard $15 monthly sub fee.
Great that you like the game, but don't lash out at people because Mythic didn't do their job. The condition and state of Warhammer is 100% Mythics fault.
WAR at the time of launch was as complete a product as an MMO can be or has been at launch. You are quite ignorant if you dont realize or cant admit, that an MMO is never truly a "complete" or "finished" product as they are continually evolving, growing and expanding.
I got sick of waiting for the game to launch. As it is right now, I am enjoying the game and plan on staying for a long time. MMOs do need time to develop -- with the right team, patches, content and expansions, the game will evolve and grow. there comes a point in time, that many of you ignorant people do not realize where a company needs to pay the bills -- it cant stay in development as long as it maybe should for the simple fact, that money dictates all. Another year of beta does not pay the bills. Now with the cash from subs rolling in, the dev team can work with a game that is making money and add to the game accordingly.
Hate to break it to you, the servers are maintaining 20+ med/med and Mythic has a chance to win people back and get new players with the Dec patch.
I'm sorry companies do not have enough money to put out a complete product. I'm sorry they cannot keep their deadlines or set unreal expectations. All those things suck, but it does not make people ignorant.
It is not the customers problem that a company did not manage itself properly or set unreal goals. It is not the responsibility of customers to stick around and pay for the post release completion of a game just because a company failed to deliver what they set out to make or ran out of money. If a games only chance at survival is to have enough people put blind faith in its eventual completion and funding through subscriptions then I'm sorry it should fail.
In fact people who continually make excuses, apologize for and place blame on other customers for the failures of a company are the people who empower companies to get away with this sort of crap. Whatever happens to Warhammer it will not be the fault of the customers.
Mythic said over and over they wouldn't release the game until it was awesome. Not good, but GREAT! I even remember them considering charging more than the standard $15 monthly sub fee.
Great that you like the game, but don't lash out at people because Mythic didn't do their job. The condition and state of Warhammer is 100% Mythics fault.
WAR at the time of launch was as complete a product as an MMO can be or has been at launch. You are quite ignorant if you dont realize or cant admit, that an MMO is never truly a "complete" or "finished" product as they are continually evolving, growing and expanding.
The thing is Mythic did think it was great when they released it. They were just wrong.
Now part of the reason they were wrong is because they were fooling themselves into believing some of their testing methods were valid.
WAR did not really test its design throughly. They tested their implementation but alot of the psychology and some the the T4 stuff did not get tested correctly.
Mythic got cuaght with their pants down out of blindness not neglect. Its completeness was not really the problem. It seems incomplete now because its flaws have been exposed. But when Mythic was releasing it they had not exposed the flaws and it seemed fine.
One of the things that many people on this board fail to understand is that testing is not some fool proof process. You never really know when or if you are "done". There is no such thing as incomplete in this regard.
This and the above post of Azrill and the unresponsive PvP mechanics. A PvP based game with these bad timings is PvP off way off.
AoC had the problem of using a way too high graphics system for an MMORPG, cutting the game into small instances and having too old AO code running in the background.
WAR has, like this guy stated, even a deeper problem: design failure.
The game was designed to have thousands and thousands of people on one server to activate all of its PQ's, spread out RvR, single server 12(!) Bg's and cut up Tier system. The problem is the old used DAoC engine doesn't support thousands and thousands of players. I doubt ANY engine supports 10.000 players per server in a fantasy setting (EVE space is a complete different story).
That's a BIG design error and everything in War is suffering from it: the unresponsiveness (Azrill talks about), the lack of people doing RvR, the 12 (!) scenarios that don't always open, the PQ's that end at its first cycle, the lag people experience when just too many people are logged on.
Just one example: the 5 BG's in that other game are supported by 18 server clusters.
Of course you can have some glitches in design philosophy. Like too many RvR lakes spreadout too much in different Tiers. But if you have a lot of those glitches together (scenarios, PQ's, old engine, ...) it all adds up.
Therefore: the quoted poster is correct: I just wanted to point out it boils down to the head designer of this game.
It's sad a lot of reviewers didn't see this obvious fact that was already clear after a few days. I think only Eurogamer mentioned it sidewise (talking of pops/server), but the problems are much deeper.
I never said the game wasn't a good launch. It many ways it was with the total exception of everything that happened in Europe.
The performance was fine even if some people have issues (ATI users aside have a right to complain)
The game didn't crash every 10 minutes. Quests worked and didn't bug out. Combat worked.
For sake of argument I will concede that all the games mechanics worked fine even if they didn't, because that is not important.
There is more to a game being "ready" than just working on your PC.
I still stand by my statement that the game was not ready for release. You can see that in the hastily implemented craft system. The dysfunctional zone control system. The complete lack of a simple damage pass for classes. The disparity between scenarios and everything else in the game. The games soul, the reason to do things and the motivations are all missing.
Sure on paper the design team maybe hit their goals, but once you put all of those drawing board theories into practice is when you see how things work in reality. That is where Warhammer failed to be ready on release. The game actively works against forming a strong community. It promotes solo PvE gameplay over everything else in a game that has its foundation built upon large scale team PvP. There are just so many things that a couple of months in serious testing would have shown, just like it is in the first month of release. Some of these things are so obvious there is no excuse for them to go live in the condition they were.
You can talk about how great the games launch was all you want, but anyone with half an open eye can see the true condition just by looking at how quickly people are leaving.
And the issue here isn't really if the game are bad, I don't think so, but if EA could/would kill it. And there is always that chanse, Mythic should never have sold out to them. I'm am sure that it is EA that forced Mythic to launch the game as early as they did.
So here is one more reason to blame TOA for Mythics failures. If they hadn't released that way too time consuming Xpack on a game where everyone wanted to RVR, then they probably wouldn't have sold out to EA.
I mean, people might laugh at that 250K-300K sub number now compared to WOW but that was a lot back then before Wow and their 6 Million Chinese gold farmers and advertising everywhere you look. DAOC got those numbers through word of mouth and were keeping up with EQ. DAOC was the best game on the market and they blew it with every release after SI.
Now if only they would release the real classic servers.